Official Stage Legality Discussion

[buenob]

A larger stage list simply tests more skills.

this is again, blatantly false... it's just removing some of the intense spacing scenarios and replacing them with stage knowledge...

"my char does badly on a downward slope" would mean that on a level like pirate ship, you'd want to stay near the middle, then if you character allows you can go in for the water gimp/ko when given the chance... it definitely CHANGES the way you need to deal with situations, but you gain about as many as you lose

lol and i still can't believe you don't see the problems with corneria and green-greens...

the death-zones on corneria are so ****ed small that any hard hitting character becomes a beast there, and then there's a permanent wall! that should never be in... wall infinites are silly and should not be part of competitive play... I play rob, and as soon as I get even a 5% advantage on my opponent, the best strategy for me is to camp down on the right side and go for wall combos // infinite and then KO them... I have multiple ways to deal with their approach from above since I know it's coming, and add a spinning top to the ground just before they get there and now there's a ground hazard which they have to avoid so there goes another bunch of their options... it's silly, it doesn't have very much variety of play, and I personally don't think that the "better" player will win on that map, it's whoever is more comfortable with a character who does really well on that map

green greens is just silly with the crazy glitch and just as many accessable ledges as norfair... the wind, I really don't mind, but the bomb glitch completely ruins a match, and if you manage to avoid all that, there is still the possibility of camping under the stage... lets say I'm a MK, and I have a % lead... I can be on the RHS, if you jump to that platform, i'll go under the stage, all the way to the LHS ledge very quickly (gliding) and at best we'll get there at the same time... maybe you'll get there slightly before, but only very specific characters and still the I'll be able to reach the ledge... then if you chase me, i'll just go back... I get to go from side to side without any obstructions, but you have to dodge the falling bombs... to mix it up, and to guarantee that bombs will always be falling, when it's safe to, i'll grab the middle ledges, destroying boxes as I do it, and then go back to running away... this is an extremely advantageous situation for me, and now you have to fight me under the level, and as MK I will have a lot of options for rando-gimping you...

I can't make any stronger cases than those for just how un-balanced those levels are... I would rather play on skyworld than either of those

 

[Mythic02]

You shouldn't be fighting the stage, you should use it to your advantage. People with hard time killing can use the small edges so they can actually kill a larger character. One of Game and watches best stages is corneria and he is as light as it gets.

The Green Greens glitch is so hard to remake it's pointless and why would anyone try, it's not a big threat. I'm not sure but isn't going underneath a stage stalling and that means that the match would be forfeited.

On pirate ship you just need to learn to adjust. The slope isn't really noticable. If someone's watercamping then you should go pressure. If someone tries to spike you through the water then, you probably should have been on the actual level.

Why are you fighting a stage when you can use it. If the laser on halberd is firing, don't run away, throw your opponent into it. On Norfair hit people into the lava don't just hide from it. The thing about stage's is that everyone can use the pros and cons of a stage. All you need to know is how to use it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

the death-zones on corneria are so ****ed small that any hard hitting character becomes a beast there, and then there's a permanent wall! that should never be in... wall infinites are silly and should not be part of competitive play... I play rob, and as soon as I get even a 5% advantage on my opponent, the best strategy for me is to camp down on the right side and go for wall combos // infinite and then KO them... I have multiple ways to deal with their approach from above since I know it's coming, and add a spinning top to the ground just before they get there and now there's a ground hazard which they have to avoid so there goes another bunch of their options... it's silly, it doesn't have very much variety of play, and I personally don't think that the "better" player will win on that map, it's whoever is more comfortable with a character who does really well on that map

Most of those issues are easily countered by several characters with the ability to deal with characters who try to camp the right side.
The wall places the opponent at a much lower height than you, so in order for him to continue camping, he is forced to come out into a vulnerable position in order to attack.
You showed it yourself, many characters can deal with this with their on projectiles and some characters have the range required where they can space the opponent (Marth for example)

The small size of the stage is hardly an issue especially where you consider a game like melee where it was MUCH easier to get killed at lower percents.

The better player will win on that map because by no means will they lose to a strategy that ca be countered.
While the wall infinites certainly can be an issue, it isnt as if it is easy to push the opponen up against the wall. yes some characters can perform it more easily (stupid penguin) but of course it doesnt mean you do would not have the tools to deal with the situation. A large amount of characters are extremely good at spacing the opponent.

its boring yes, but is not game breaking. So far.

green greens is just silly with the crazy glitch

the glitch is extremely hard to perform and can be removed by blowing up a bomb.
Which the great majority of characters can do.

and just as many accessable ledges as norfair

Four of which have blocks and bombs over them.
So it isnt as if they can just cam every ledge continously over and over, they are limited.

... the wind, I really don't mind, but the bomb glitch completely ruins a match, and if you manage to avoid all that,

The bomb glitch is extremely hard to perform and can be disarmed.
blow up a bomb and the glitch stops. Let alone only a handful of characters can perform it.

there is still the possibility of camping under the stage... lets say I'm a MK, and I have a % lead... I can be on the RHS, if you jump to that platform, i'll go under the stage, all the way to the LHS ledge very quickly (gliding) and at best we'll get there at the same time... maybe you'll get there slightly before, but only very specific characters and still the I'll be able to reach the ledge...

This goes for ANY stage.
how many characters can you name would get to the stage before him? Now among those characters, how many of them acn prevent MK from grabbing the ledge? Or manage to limit his options?

then if you chase me, i'll just go back... I get to go from side to side without any obstructions, but you have to dodge the falling bombs... to mix it up, and to guarantee that bombs will always be falling, when it's safe to, i'll grab the middle ledges, destroying boxes as I do it, and then go back to running away... this is an extremely advantageous situation for me, and now you have to fight me under the level, and as MK I will have a lot of options for rando-gimping you...

Except for the fact that you can perform this trick on EVERY stage.
moving from side to side then abusing your invincibility frames and then going to the other side and repeating it.

The same issues that exist on green greens concerning MK exist on every other stage. So obviously, its not just the stage its the character himself.

I can't make any stronger cases than those for just how un-balanced those levels are... I would rather play on skyworld than either of those

Skyworld...
Oh hell no.

 

[buenob]

ok serously... battlefield, I can make it to the other side same time as the MK... it's because of the falling hazards // forced jumping... if there weren't falling hazards it would be way better (except for the incredibly easy access to the middle ledges)...

Most of those issues are easily countered by several characters with the ability to deal with characters who try to camp the right side.

gain it comes down to certain characters are overpowered on this stage -> many characters don't have a chance of winning -> should not be legal... a counter-pick should just be a level in your favour, not a free win

it isnt as if it is easy to push the opponent up against the wall.

yes... yes it is...

The bomb glitch is extremely hard to perform and can be disarmed.

it still can happen randomly, and then you have to disrupt the flow of the match to undo it... wait wait, time out, lets fix this glitch then continue with our match... no that can't be how competitive play works... and what if neither character has a projectile to disarm it? someone has to take %'s to fix it? or wait for apples? or properly space whatever crazy move will work? what if the person doesn't know how? get a TO to come, take the controller, and fix it for them, then continue with the match??

 

[Linkshot]

You should know your character well enough to figure out which move can hit a bomb safely. Case closed.

Again, practice on the stage to gain knowledge.

 

[buenob]

lol LS, what about stopping the fight to fix it? that's really my main point... so many characters would require specific spacing to land that move, the disruption would be like ~10 seconds min... seriously... hell, even a 5 second break in the middle of an intense fight is unacceptable...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Do you really think every type of scenario can occur on a narrow set of stages? Being able to handle more situations is obviously related to skill.

Anyway, seriously, blast zones don't matter very much when both sides are equally close (vertical/horizontal that is). Okay, Snake's up tilt kills super low. Well, Sonic's stuff kills at reasonable percentages now. This is not any worse for Sonic than Snake's up tilt killing kinda low and his stuff killing at stupidly high percentages. It does include some favor for attacks with higher initial knockback, but that's really not that big of a deal. I know it matters to individual players a lot, but that's really personal preference and not actual character advantage. The main two beneficiaries of that are Toon Link and Ness... The reason Corneria is good for Mr. Game & Watch would be the ships that let him fill his bucket; the blast zones are if anything hurtful since they minimize bucket braking. Of course, they really aren't that big of a deal...

Walls are so overrated; they really aren't that dangerous. Dtilt locks can, in general, be SDI'd out of and require pretty precise spacing to set up anyway. If you get caught in a dtilt lock on Corneria, you made a big mistake. You deserve to take big damage. The only non-release grab infinites against the fin on Corneria, to my knowledge, are King Dedede's down throw, Diddy Kong's banana lock, and the assorted character "you missed a tech and are not jab/laser/ice block locked". The third one isn't a big deal since, like it suggests, you not only missed a tech but missed it in the worst possible place to miss a tech. Big mistakes warrant big punishment. Diddy Kong's banana lock is going to be hard to set up in that small area. Either he needs to be positioned well over you and holding a banana to pull off the single banana lock or he needs both bananas out and accessible in that small area. You are probably going to try to prevent Diddy Kong from setting up banana locks even without a wall present; the wall just increases the priority of that concern in this context. With King Dedede, he's really slow moving, and he can't reverse direction on his chaingrab. The area is really small. It's very reasonable for most characters he can chaingrab to never be in-between him and that wall. I believe he can actually infinite a few he can't chaingrab on the wall like that too, but that requires him to be close to the wall to start. Just don't let it happen. The other high damage abuses like Ike's forward throw thing really fall into the same boat. Some very specific positioning has to happen; they are reasonable to avoid with reasonable punishment if you fail.

As per release grabs, you have ground break and jump breaks to worry about. With ground breaks, only Ness and Lucas are caught in an infinite combo here, and this isn't bad at all since they benefit so much from the stage due to PSI Magnet already. With jump breaks, it's a bit iffy, but only characters Yoshi can chaingrab plus Captain Falcon generally have to worry about the infinite. Of them, Ganondorf, Wario, and Sonic get released high enough that they automatically grab the ledge. Falco, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon, and any other "tall" characters generally can't be forced to jump break so it's mostly Yoshi they have to worry about, and they generally have enough tools to avoid being grabbed by Yoshi that it's hard to see this as unfair. The only two short characters I can think are affected are Meta Knight and Squirtle. I think Meta Knight will live, and before putting yourself in that position with the Pokemon Trainer, just switch away from Squirtle. If you are going to go into that dangerous bottom area where your opponent is camping anyway, I imagine you'd want to be Charizard already.

The point of all that is, even if the wall opens up some good stuff, I don't see that any of it can't be reasonably avoided, and it's really not nearly as much as some people seem to think anyway.

With the exploding field glitch, it's super obscure and unlikely, and it's not like you can't just keep playing and deal with it in the event it does happen. Has it ever ruined a serious match, and if it did, did both players take reasonable steps to play around it? I have played a pretty large number of matches on Green Greens and never seen it; it's so obscure that the exact causes are still mysterious. Just like randomly falling through Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, and Pokemon Stadium 1, at some point, things become unlikely enough that you don't worry about them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ok serously... battlefield, I can make it to the other side same time as the MK... it's because of the falling hazards // forced jumping... if there weren't falling hazards it would be way better (except for the incredibly easy access to the middle ledges)...

You can beat Mk using Sonic to get to the other side.
Again, ut doesn't matter if you get there at the same time because as I said earlier, evnen if you do, the characters that can make it do ot have the tools to prevent him from simply grabbing the ledge.
The only character that truly beats him out is Falcon and Sonic.
Falcon obviously doesn't have the tools and Sonic only has his spring and Fair (since he is liding Fair will beat out the glide attack).

Except it isnt a free win. You have a good amount of characters to choose from that disable the tactic.
it isn't as if you are forced to perfom the strategy yourself, or use the only thing that counters the strategy. you have multiple options left to you, and the strategy itself (camping, isn't broken on Cornelia due to how the level is situated.

yes... yes it is...

no...no it is not...
I can do it too.
Explain how it is easy.

it still can happen randomly,

No it does not happen randomly. The glitch occurs because a 0% move hits a bomb and causes the game to loop the explosion repeatedly.
Simply because the bombs are intended to break when they are hit by a damaging move.
Soa move that does 0% could cause the loop.
Sonic's Fair, Ganondorf's wizard foot.
It can then be disarmed by blowing up a bomb which returns things to normal.
It is very hard to do without it being completely intentional and there is a way to stop it as well.

and then you have to disrupt the flow of the match to undo it... wait wait, time out, lets fix this glitch then continue with our match...

Except that the chance of this occuring is EXTREMELY RARE.
Just because it can happen is no excuse to ban the stage.
Just because you can get killed by Halberd's laser doesnt mean you should ban it.
Just because you can possibly fall through the center of a stage doesn't mean you should ban it, especially when it can be stopped.

no that can't be how competitive play works...

In the 1/1000000 chance that it occurs? Probably, especially considering how EASY it is to stop the glitch.
hey look there is a bomb block on EITHER side, *hits it*. Okay back to the match.
**** had to stop it the match for a few seconds in an occurrence that happens once every couple of hundred matches with a handful of characters.

and what if neither character has a projectile to disarm it?

Donkey Kong -Giant punch, grounded flying kong but takes damage
Ganondorf* -screwed
Jigglypuff* -possibly use rest not sure
Marth* -Ftilt/Fsmash/Fair/Nair/Dolphin slash
Ike-Anything involving his big *** sword.
Meta Knight- Ftilt,Dtilt,shuttle loop etc etc
Sonic* -Usmash, side B,
Wario: Bike
Captain Falcon: screwed

only two characters have no method of dealing with the bombs without getting sent flying through the air.

Everyone else either has a projectile, or a disjointed attack, or an invincible attack to break the blocks.
So we are talking what? At most 4 out of 37 characters getting hurt in the process.
Y

what if the person doesn't know how? get a TO to come, take the controller, and fix it for them, then continue with the match??

I addressed the part about the bombs earlier.
If the person doesn't know how, that is due to their own ignorance.
If no one knows how to fix it then they restart.
By that ogic, we can ban a stage because the person does not know how to deal with the strategy.

 

[buenob]

The point of all that is, even if the wall opens up some good stuff, I don't see that any of it can't be reasonably avoided, and it's really not nearly as much as some people seem to think anyway.

I 100% disagree with this statement... the fact that you absolutely cannot be in a spot where you could get infinited limits your options tremendously, and then it's very easy to read... it turns into high-risk low-reward situations for whoever has to approach... just... seriously listen to what you're saying?! snake killing at low percents is not a big deal because now sonic can kill at lower percents?? there's no way you can say that... two jab combo's and you're near kill percents from snake... add in a f/d-air or a ftilt combo, or a grenade, and all of a sudden a Utilt is deadly... being generious, that'll be 5 mistakes per life... as the sonic player, to get snake, a very heavy character, to kill percents you'll have to get him to at least 120%...

it's very easy to dodge the spin->uair->upb->uair gimp combo sonic has, the match is incredibly biased towards snake

not to mention the amount of zoning snake can do with grenades and mines while you fly off the top of the level... by the time you're back, you have to spend your invincibility just to get to him, and then there's grenades and mines PLUS his jab/ftilt to worry about

and even though a lot of dtilt "infinites" can be sdi'd out of, you're still going to take quite a bit of damage, and then after that you still are in a bad position... it's just not worth ti

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the exact cause of those has been found (dp/cs/ps1) but extremely hard to re-create... if you are off the ground, or not on a spot where the level is uneven after the change, you're fine... ie. NOT a major issue...

the bomb glitch completely disrupts play... what happens if both people end up on either side of the explosion? then you have to camp it out, (or neutralize the explosion) but if you're on the same side then all of a sudden there's an extremely large, extremely powerful stage hazard which has to be avoided...

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why do pro's not mind playing on brinstar when it's a very disrupting stage hazard... answer is because there is a choice to deal with it.. you can either avoid it, or attack aggressively and purposefully get hit by the lava... there is a choice... with the strong stage hazards, there isn't... levels that find a good balance between extremely easy to dodge // infrequent // kill-strength // randomness end up being in the CP list at pretty much every tournament, but the ones which are unbalanced, and absolutely force one strategy over another (must be avoided) tend to disrupt the flow of the fight and FORCE you to deal with them...

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edit:
you know what.. screw this... you guys can continue debating wario ware, have fun coming up with something productive... one of the two people against me is unaware of the facts, I don't care about GG's because I know in essence it is a broken level so i don't know (and am not pretending to know exactly), and I will ban it if I'm ever at a tournament with it on (unless I'm playing someone good, then I know they won't go to that level)

Just because it can happen is no excuse to ban the stage.

yes... yes it is... if I fall through a stage, it's my fault... to tell mario he can't use his fludd, or gannon that he can't use his utilt or any of those moves which will set it off, how is that competitive??

the mentality of "it's not broken until you PROVE to me it's broken" is a good starting point, but if you can theorize a tactical advantage, the pro's can absolutely do it... I couldn't prove that skyworld was broken... it took a match against a very good MK to convince me it was... it went exactly as I had theorized, tornado spam + gimps, but I wasn't a good enough MK (plus a great match of mario vs. peach where everything went to LOL'z... it was a serious match but in the end it was not a competitive environment as in neither player felt the outcome helped determine who was a better player)... if you wait for the pro's to prove something is bannable, and then ignore it (norfair) then no one is willing to budge here... subjective "stalling" is too hard to enforce at the high level, they don't just sonic-neutralb spam (ie. it's not obvious)...

originally, i was in the "wow we need more stages" camp, but this side has gone too far... it took actually holding a tournament with a very lenient stage list, and then seeing what levels people played on, and talking with them about their stage choices, to find out that we've definitely gone too far...

a permanent large wall is not competitive, no pro would want to play there because they have enough respect for their opponent to know how to use it properly and win with it

peace

 

[fkacyan]

You should know your character well enough to figure out which move can hit a bomb safely. Case closed.

Again, practice on the stage to gain knowledge.

In other words, you gain an advantage over a better player by being a subpar player with better knowledge of a stage's quirks?

No thank you.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The idea of something productive coming out of this is a nice one; I'm not sure it's going to happen either way. I disagree with what you said about Green Greens and Corneria, but let's take this in a somewhat different direction. Regardless of reasons, let's try to see where our various lists actually vary. Compromise is needed in the end anyway if we're talking productive, and compromise does mean accepting stages where you don't want them.

Let's try to group stages into these groups.

Stages that should be legal, no willingness to compromise

Stages that should be legal, would be very loathe to ban

Stages that should be legal, will readily compromise

Stages that should be banned, will readily compromise

Stages that should be banned, would be very loathe to allow

Stages that should be banned, no willingness to compromise

My list would look like this...


Stages that should be legal, no willingness to compromise

Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1

Stages that should be legal, would be very loathe to ban

Final Destination
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
PictoChat
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Brinstar

Stages that should be legal, will readily compromise

Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onett
Corneria
Big Blue

Stages that should be banned, will readily compromise

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Summit
75m
Flat Zone 2

Stages that should be banned, would be very loathe to allow

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
WarioWare Inc.
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island

Stages that should be banned, no willingness to compromise

Spear Pillar
New Pork City
Mario Bros.
Temple

If people on both sides are open minded and actually willing to compromise about a lot, this is a way to find where our middle ground actually is.

 

[Linkshot]

I like the fact that you think FD isn't a surefire legal. It's a very bad stage in Brawl due to the lack of pressure aggression brings.

Bridge of Eldin is just a really really gay FD, though.

75m has a winning strategy. Choose Zelda, camp at bottom right. Nobody can safely approach you.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's not so much what's surefire legal so much as what I'd be personally willing to compromise on. I personally really like 75m even if I know it should be banned so, if there were some big movement to make it legal, I wouldn't be resisting too much. Likewise, Final Destination does call for me to use my personal stage ban on it... so, while I know it should be legal, I wouldn't be fighting for it in the unlikely event there were a battle against it.

I also was trying to put as many stages as close to the middle as possible.

Also, as an aside, I bet I could beat that Zelda strategy with Mr. Game & Watch. Bucket and key are too good.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Stages that should be banned, will readily compromise

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Summit
75m
Flat Zone 2

One of these is not like the others. >_> The rest of the stages have very good reasons to be banned, Pirate Ship does not.

MK1-1? Constant moving in one steady direction + walk-offs = lol against people like Ness (bthrow) and D3 (Dthrow)

BoE? Chaingrabs + unblocked walk-offs the majority of the time = lol.

Summit? Circling. End of discussion.

75m? Circling. End of discussion.

FZ2? Constant unblocked walk-offs + lion cage.

Pirate Ship has strong projectiles yes, but they give you a longer time to move out of the way then Norfair, and a nice solid sound warning in the way of cannon fire. The catapult doesn't move and give you time to get out of the way/sheild, water isn't grounds for banning otherwise Delfino would be banned. No walk offs, winds aren't ban worthy, the wall for infinities is the weakest one out there. Ike's fthrow works to 100% on Cornera, but only to 60% on Pirate Ship due to the shape.

Basically, if Pirate Ship is here, so should Norfair. Norfair has the planking issue, can be so covered in lava that only one platform is free, the fire from the background gives you less warning and covers a much larger area of the stage all the while lasting longer. Lava walls from the sides can block KOs when they are just formed, but not on screen (has happened to me several times), that funny glitch where if you end up ADing through the side lava wall for whatever reason, you can end up bouncing back and forth between the inner part of the lava wall and the edge of a platform (lol +60% damage in moments). It's just plain old more disruptive then Pirate Ship.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I 100% disagree with this statement... the fact that you absolutely cannot be in a spot where you could get infinited limits your options tremendously, and then it's very easy to read...

Except you are ignoring the fact tat severa characters can harass DDD because he is BELOW you and characters like Link and TL have bombs to pressure and harass DDD for trying to stay down there indefinitely. He s limited in his movement and approaches. Sam for MK.

it turns into high-risk low-reward situations for whoever has to approach... just... seriously listen to what you're saying?! snake killing at low percents is not a big deal because now sonic can kill at lower percents?? there's no way you can say that... two jab combo's and you're near kill percents from snake... add in a f/d-air or a ftilt combo, or a grenade, and all of a sudden a Utilt is deadly... being generious, that'll be 5 mistakes per life... as the sonic player, to get snake, a very heavy character, to kill percents you'll have to get him to at least 120%...

Two jab combos doesn't pu Sonic near killing percents. he is a mid weight that falls faster than mario. So he does around 90 or so, not friggin 60%.
et alone that its not a gimp combo, gimps prevent recovery, this kills him. Let alone if its avoiable, why mention it?
We are talking about Snake dyig overall. WHich he dies earlier.
Let alone that all you mention about Snake occurs every other stage that is lega.

He does the same thing on FD and BF and still kills at low percents. So it doesn't mean anything at all because he is doig the same thing on other stages. Ban the other stages then? Cause he is still going to use his mines, C4 and grenades to prevent you from getting close.

it's very easy to dodge the spin->uair->upb->uair gimp combo sonic has, the match is incredibly biased towards snake

No it isn't, Snake doesn't have a major advantage let alone why mention something hat can be avoided?
Did you know Sonic racks damage up as fast as Snake? 32% combos all the way til 110%
the issue is that Sonic has a hard time killing. e can approach Snake, he cant kill him very easily though, since Snake is heavy and because he has poor kill setups.

not to mention the amount of zoning snake can do with grenades and mines while you fly off the top of the level... by the time you're back, you have to spend your invincibility just to get to him, and then there's grenades and mines PLUS his jab/ftilt to worry about

He does that on EVERY single stage though, whats new? ban those stages too? he still is killing his opponents at low percents and still controls the stage just as hard.

and even though a lot of dtilt "infinites" can be sdi'd out of, you're still going to take quite a bit of damage, and then after that you still are in a bad position... it's just not worth it

Except you are focusing only on the issue of there being an infinite. What about the fact tat the placement of the opponent who wants to do the infinite is below? If he ants to force you up close, he needs a percentage lead, something he cannot accomplish by just going to the wall.

let alone that again, several characters have methods of dealing with such behavior.

the bomb glitch completely disrupts play... what happens if both people end up on either side of the explosion? then you have to camp it out, (or neutralize the explosion) but if you're on the same side then all of a sudden there's an extremely large, extremely powerful stage hazard which has to be avoided...

Except that you IGNORED the fact that the only away to cause the glitch is to use one of the handful of characters that can cause it, and then blow up the bomb. Which doesn't happen unless you blow it up intentionally.

You have to force the glitch to occur. And the fact you can neutralize only adds to it. Let alone it takes a few seconds which any character except for 4 characters who would get hurt neutralizing it.

the glitch happens just as often as falling through the stage does.
If both opponents get stuck on the same side and the glitch occurs, they neutralize it ina few seconds.

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why do pro's not mind playing on brinstar when it's a very disrupting stage hazard... answer is because there is a choice to deal with it.. you can either avoid it, or attack aggressively and purposefully get hit by the lava... there is a choice... with the strong stage hazards, there isn't... levels that find a good balance between extremely easy to dodge // infrequent // kill-strength // randomness end up being in the CP list at pretty much every tournament, but the ones which are unbalanced, and absolutely force one strategy over another (must be avoided) tend to disrupt the flow of the fight and FORCE you to deal with them...

this is the same for green greens. There is a choice to deal with the bombs. You can use the bombs if you want, avoid them etc etc.
Your argument goes back at you in that it is the same for green greens. Its easy to avoid the bomb blocks. Its extremely hard to cause the glitch even when you try it intentionally.
Why do you ignore this fact?

--
edit:
you know what.. screw this... you guys can continue debating wario ware, have fun coming up with something productive... one of the two people against me is unaware of the facts, I don't care about GG's because I know in essence it is a broken level so i don't know (and am not pretending to know exactly), and I will ban it if I'm ever at a tournament with it on (unless I'm playing someone good, then I know they won't go to that level)

Warioware is bad in tat if you dont do the games, your oppoent will and get a starman, giant or any other great reward.

yes... yes it is... if I fall through a stage, it's my fault... to tell mario he can't use his fludd, or gannon that he can't use his utilt or any of those moves which will set it off, how is that competitive??

You do not udnerstand how it works. You cannot just hit it with Fludd or use Ganon's Utilt. Those moves do not work. It has to be a move like Sonics Fair and you also have to do a few other things.
Either way, this glitch is EXTREMELY hard to perform even when intentional and it can be disarmed Why are you ignoring those two parrts?
you dot mind falling through a stage (which is hard ot perform) but you mind the bomb glitch which is even ahrder to perform? And can be removed? By 33 of 37 characters?

stuff/quote]
Unimportant to me, discuss with me why you think the bomb glitc is such an issue even though its extremely hard to replicate?

originally, i was in the "wow we need more stages" camp, but this side has gone too far... it took actually holding a tournament with a very lenient stage list, and then seeing what levels people played on, and talking with them about their stage choices, to find out that we've definitely gone too far... [/quoe having more stages is never what should be said, what should be done is, what stages are allowable.

a permanent large wall is not competitive, no pro would want to play there because they have enough respect for their opponent to know how to use it properly and win with it

peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYi8Kshs298

The issue is't just thef act tat there is a wall, the issue is how much does that wall affect gameplay?
In SMI you have two giant walls you cannot go over.
in corneria the wall is situated where it places the opponent at a lower level, where they must make themselves vulnerable if they are to be successful in their camping

 

[Kamikaze*]

The idea of something productive coming out of this is a nice one; I'm not sure it's going to happen either way. I disagree with what you said about Green Greens and Corneria, but let's take this in a somewhat different direction. Regardless of reasons, let's try to see where our various lists actually vary. Compromise is needed in the end anyway if we're talking productive, and compromise does mean accepting stages where you don't want them.

Let's try to group stages into these groups.

Stages that should be legal, no willingness to compromise

Stages that should be legal, would be very loathe to ban

Stages that should be legal, will readily compromise

Stages that should be banned, will readily compromise

Stages that should be banned, would be very loathe to allow

Stages that should be banned, no willingness to compromise

My list would look like this...


Stages that should be legal, no willingness to compromise

Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1

Stages that should be legal, would be very loathe to ban

Final Destination
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
PictoChat
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Brinstar

Stages that should be legal, will readily compromise

Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onett
Corneria
Big Blue

Stages that should be banned, will readily compromise

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Summit
75m
Flat Zone 2

Stages that should be banned, would be very loathe to allow

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
WarioWare Inc.
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island

Stages that should be banned, no willingness to compromise

Spear Pillar
New Pork City
Mario Bros.
Temple

If people on both sides are open minded and actually willing to compromise about a lot, this is a way to find where our middle ground actually is.

:\

You think big blue is a possible legal stage.

*facepalm*

I wanna hear reasons for this. These should be good.

 

[buenob]

lol gg melee post ... <- lolz ... lower ground == harder to approach... why do you think people hit you into the air... you're assuming only d3, and even then his uair goes through the stage and pokes at timid approaches, and strong approaches are easy to read due to the wall

aa - it's an interesting idea, here's my list

should be legal

Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Rainbow Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Jungle Japes
Brinstar

should not be banned, but meh

Pokemon Stadium 2
PictoChat
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship

(nothing in mid categories)

I feel very strongly should be banned, but are close to being non-ban
Skyworld
Port Town Aero Dive
Norfair
Corneria
Green Greens

I would not attend a tournament with any of these legal
Distant Planet
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onett
Big Blue
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Bridge of Eldin
Summit
75m
Flat Zone 2
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
WarioWare Inc.
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Spear Pillar
New Pork City
Mario Bros.
Temple

ps. I tested summit and I am a very novice sonic player, yet I could easily win once I got a percent lead... it's harder to circle camp than say temple, but it's still quite easy, and even a novice can do it

 

[Linkshot]

There's a thread dedicated to Big Blue. I don't feel like linking to it right now.

Ampharos, if you key, I duck. I also have fireballs (stage hazard) and jacks protecting me. I simply will not use Din's Fire against you if your bucket is empty. I will force you to approach me and shield myself with uSmash, fSmash, and the like.

 

[M]

Hmm, this question is just something I'd like to throw out there and I want an intelligent answer to it. What is the general issue with Spear Pillar when Palkia isn't the pokemon that appears? As far as I know, the Dialga variant of the stage is reasonably safe, and even Cresselia is predictable and surely no as hazarous as something like Port town...

 

[buenob]

circle camping same reason temple is banned...

and if you don't know what circle camping is, it's just gaining a % lead on the opponent, and then running away for the next 7 minutes... it's unfortunately quite easy to do on a level which lets you go in a circle

 

[M]

Hmm, so minor stage hazards like Cresselia's Psycho Cutter (where it spits out blade after blade repeatedly, and make the top fairly dangerous) have no ability to stop that?

 

[buenob]

absolutely none... a decent player will just avoid it easily

 

[MysticKenji]

The only hazard I could see that would halt circle camp would be the lasers.

All the others can very easily worked around imo.

 

[Linkshot]

Still wouldn't halt it. Shield it, your opponent can't approach, and move on.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol gg melee post ... <- lolz ... lower ground == harder to approach... why do you think people hit you into the air...

You are placed in the air because your mobility is hindered when you are in the air and you cannot shield or use the options you have on the ground. Just being above the opponent means little cause plenty of cahracters have emthods of dealing with opponents below them.

you're assuming only d3, and even then his uair goes through the stage and pokes at timid approaches, and strong approaches are easy to read due to the wall

This goes for Falco, Fox, every other character with a Uair going through the wall.
Why have you not addressed the fact that characters like Link and TL can use bombs to pressure the opponent?
Why have you not acknowledged that the only way they can truly camp is if they have a percentage lead?
During which they place themselves in as much as risk as you because you can perform an infinite on them as well.


I used ddd as an example because he is the most extreme example .

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Why would you not attend a tournament with Distant Planet legal? That particular walk-off is not very easy to abuse. I have never understood why people have such a strong impulse to ban Distant Planet; it's exceptionally fair.

There's a whole topic dedicated to Big Blue elsewhere where I go into great depth about why the stage is not obviously fundamentally broken, possibly broken, and in need of further play which it is not likely to receive since it is greatly hated by the community. I operate on "innocent until proven guilty" with stages (and even "possibly innocent after proven guilty"), and Big Blue has received no such proof. Most credible playtesting I've seen (as well as my own testing) suggests that the stage is "incredibly obnoxious but not really broken".

Pirate Ship is an absolutely terrible level where you just play in the water all day which has extreme character bias and pretty high variance since instant death by comboing into the bow hazard is shockingly common and possible. The bombs being a ridiculously overpowered 55% hazard is just extra really (this stage is more hazardous than every other stage except Mario Bros. by the way). I watch people do silly things like fight on top of the ship, and I get a sense they aren't exploring the extremes of the stage. If you ignored the fact that there's no reason for whoever is better at aerials to ever leave the water whenever up or even, I guess it would be alright. It's not like Norfair which has consistent use of actual ground at all. I'm willing to play on it and would attend a tournament with it legal, but it really is awful.

Someday, Linkshot, we will have to play a series of matches online on 75m. Your strategy isn't invincible there. That someday will have to be after my Wii is repaired so that could be a while. That's all I really have to say about that. There's no reason to have an argument over 75m.

Either way, with all of this, nothing in the middle groups is kinda defeating the point... If you aren't readily willing to compromise about anything and are only barely willing to compromise over a few things, it makes compromise solutions hard. The total amount you have on both sides is actually not completely unreasonable; it's just striking that you're pretty absolutist about nearly the entire stage list.

Looking at a list of anything and getting all excited/upset over the thing you find the most disagreeable is a good way to not obtain productive results. I was kinda worried this sort of thing would happen since it's been a theme in this thread, but if we could move beyond that, finding where we agree would be a lot easier.

 

[fkacyan]

finding where we agree would be a lot easier.

The reason that this is difficult, at least for me, is because I disagree at a fundamental level with you, as opposed to a stage-per-stage basis.

 

[Snake Sav]

Final destination is over-rated right?

 

[deepseadiva]

I agree with AA 100%.

And just to note, I heard from Umbreon that Luigi's Mansion is soon to be banned.

...as we continue awaiting the new stage list.

 

[Linkshot]

Yeah. Luigi's Mansion can have pretty ugly fights.

 

[t!MmY]

I have never understood why people have such a strong impulse to ban Distant Planet; it's exceptionally fair.

It's easy to downplay the poor aspects of any stage and point out the similarities any stage has to a "fair" stage, but that's not what makes a stage viable for a serious, competitive environment. What high-level players want in a serious tournament are stages that most favor uninterrupted gameplay with the outcome based on skill and player choice.

For instance, you can argue that Hyrule Temple is "fair" because anyone can pick the best character for the stage and then time-out the opponent by camping and running away. While character selection, and ability to time-out the opponent, are available to all players and could be construed as "fair", Hyrule Temple is banned because this is not what players want to see in a game of high-level play.

In general, stages with walls, ceilings, and walk-offs are not suitable for competitive gameplay. They're perfectly fine for casual tournaments with a group of friends who just want to hang out and have fun.

That someday will have to be after my Wii is repaired so that could be a while.

It's common for soemthing to be wrong with the lens, if your Wii isn't reading disks. This happened to me and Nintendo of America said they'd fix it for $70 and up to 2 weeks waiting. I found a local electronics repairman who was knowledgable in video game repairs and he got my Wii working in about a day for $30. You might want to check around and see if there are any small electronic shops that have expertese in video game repair.

 

[Linkshot]

That could go both ways. High level players might be knowledgable only in their character and not on stages, hence why they want strict uninterrupted play.

I think we should give the people that have a balance of stage and character knowledge a chance.

Temple is banned because running away is considered degenerate. It's not Smash anymore when you're doing that. Alternately, it could be that the strategy is so powerful that it's an instant win for the person that gets the first hit, basically making it Sudden Death.

 

[t!MmY]

High level players explore all aspects of the game in order to find, and exploit, the most viable winning tactics. To say they only look at or explore a small section of the game would be an incorrect assumption.

And it's not just the competitors who prefer fast-paced, uninterrupted gameplay. Spectators also highly favor skill-based stages. Melee, for instance, gravitated toward the most neutral of stages, and the top players (and fan favorites) would usually play on Dreamland, FD, and Yoshi's Story almost exclusively.

No matter how you look at it, if there's an exploit in a stage, it will be abused. Abuse of exploits will usually detract from the gameplay that spectators and competitors desire. Running away on Temple is degenerate, but the same can be said to a lesser degree of camping walls, ceilings, and walk-offs.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm definitely not supporting walkoffs and walls, but I'll support most stages that don't encourage camping, running away, or a constant chaingrab opportunity.

Stages I don't support:

Mario Bros.
Spear Pillar
Temple
New Pork City
75m
Flat Zone 2
Summit
Luigi's Mansion
Mushroomy Kingdom (both)

 

[Kamikaze*]

I agree with AA 100%.

And just to note, I heard from Umbreon that Luigi's Mansion is soon to be banned.

...as we continue awaiting the new stage list.

It should be banned.

Along with all the other stupid counterpicks.

This would be a pretty epic list IMO:

Starter:

FD
BF
Smashville

Counterpick:

Yoshi's Island
Lylat
PS1
Delfino
Frigate
Castle siege
Halberd

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Distant Planet isn't Temple class or anything close. It's not only "fair" in the sense that every stage is fair that you mention; it's fair in the sense that it doesn't overly favor any characters or randomly screw people/introduce high variance tactics. That walk-off on the left is seriously just not that important. The way the stage is constructed favors approaching from the right simply because it's generally better to approach from downhill. Camping the walk-off doesn't work because of rain and the pellets; camping like that is a flat out losing strategy. It's not even as bad as Yoshi's Island (Melee) because the ceiling has a normal height, there are no especially big teching opportunities, and less of the stage leads toward the walk-off. It's actually probably less bad than even Corneria for chaingrab abuse because on Corneria there are good reasons to want to be in places that will let you get killed by chaingrabs while on Distant Planet you pretty much never want to be in a position to be killed by a chaingrab. Also, for the record, Falco can't run any character up the entire slope with his chaingrab, even Link from 0%.

The melee comparison might actually let me make my claim more easily. In melee, Corneria was always considered legal even though it had a wall. The reason was, even though it had a usually "bad" feature, it implemented it in such a way so that it wasn't nearly as bad as the other cases. Distant Planet in brawl is the same way with walk-offs. Even if you are a person who believes permanent walk-offs are deserving of a general ban, you should be able to see that Distant Planet in specific is constructed in such a way so that it really isn't very abusable.

Also, I think the idea of competitors favoring the "fairest" stages isn't really true. I suggest that the reason those stages were the most popular was largely tradition, not fairness. I mean, really, Marth's Story being one of the top three most fair stages in melee (that puts it over Battlefield, DK64, Fountain of Dreams, and Pokemon Stadium)? Since Jigglypuff isn't crowd pleasing, does her getting screwed over not matter? If anything, I suspect it's the interaction of a few things. There is a desire to satisfy a superficial concept of fairness but not a real one. That is, you want to pick a stage that "looks" fair but really isn't. In melee culture, that manifested in picking the stages labeled as "neutral" (neutral means fair!), but you pick the less fair of them. You pick the one with the closest quarters for some like Marth who become really hard to avoid there (Yoshi's Story), the one with the biggest blast zones for those with great recovery (Dreamland 64), and the flat one for those who are looking to chaingrab or projectile camp (Final Destination). The one that transforms and offers dynamic advantages (Pokemon Stadium 1), the one that has slightly bigger close quarters (Battlefield), or the one that is kinda in the middle of everything (Fountain of Dreams) don't offer as much and are going to be picked less. Tradition dictates what people accept as fair, and within that you try to be unfair. In Brawl, you compound this further thanks to Melee import; I think a lot of people hold Brawl stages to Melee standards. Yeah, there's a lot in common, but there are some things that are pretty important that are different too so you have to be careful to make sure you are always keeping that in mind.

Also, Kamikaze*, my only response to that is pointing out that any starter list with an even number of starters is invalid by default.

 

[Linkshot]

Remove FD from Starter, IMO, since I'm going to guess you don't want to add anything to Starter.

FD hosts some of the gayest Brawl matches (out of the generally accepted Starter List).

 

[Kamikaze*]

Also, Kamikaze*, my only response to that is pointing out that any starter list with an even number of starters is invalid by default.

Hmm...there, fixed

 

[Kamikaze*]

Remove FD from Starter, IMO, since I'm going to guess you don't want to add anything to Starter.

FD hosts some of the gayest Brawl matches (out of the generally accepted Starter List).

Hell to the no. Nothing is wrong with FD. It's a perfectly fine stage. I already moved Yoshi's to CP to make it odd numbered.

 

[Linkshot]

FD strongly promotes camping on one end of the stage. To me, that's nearly as degenerate as running away.