How hard is it to shield/jump over projectiles and approach accordingly?
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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Mic_128
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Linkshot
Smash Hero
I can pull up a YouTube video of a Brawl match on FD. It was very horrible to see. They were both competitive players, too.
Okay, I can't find the video x.x I feel noobish now.
Okay, I can't find the video x.x I feel noobish now.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
While I have no doubt you're being honest, I'm actually really interested in seeing that video, LS.
There are very few top-level players who can camp that well and not be successfully broken out of it by other top-level players, if there are even any at all. Even then, only Falco and maybe Snake can truly projectile camp in such a way that it's hard to hit them.
I will pose this question once again to those arguing for stages on parts of the list that aren't on this one (i.e. moving something from cp to neutral, putting something on cp that's banned, etc:
Neutrals:
- Final Destination
- Battlefield
- Smashville
- Yoshi's Island: Brawl
- Lylat Cruise
Counterpicks:
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Battleship Halberd
- Castle Siege
- Delfino Plaza
- Brinstar
- Frigate Orpheon
- Rainbow Cruise
What do the stages you intend to move to another segment either: i) In the case of the stage moving up from banned to CP or CP to neutral, bring to the game that another stage doesn't, i.e. add to the skill needed to play, or; ii) In the case of a stage moving down from neutral to CP or CP to banned, what does that stage do to detract from gameplay in which skill is tested?
I'm going to make this clear, as well: Stage knowledge does not equate to skill. I could watch videos of stages all day and figure out where to stand at various phases, etc. and still be a mediocre player, wheras somebody far better than me might spend all day playing on FD and just not know what happens on a stage like Pirate Ship.
I'm interested in seeing an answer to this, honestly, because I don't feel the stages you suggest add anything to the game except variety.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
The so called "better player" there is an idiot.
You don't just practice on starters, ever. You practice and plan on playing all the counterpicks.
He might as well have just practiced solely against Meta Knights and expected to win an entire tournament.
If he took the same attention to learning a match-up as he did learning the stage, he would be at a clear advantage.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I strongly believe that Lylat Cruise should be switched with Delfino Plaza.
Lylat Cruise is a very traitorous stage in terms of ledges.
Delfino Plaza offers a shifting stage for the first match, as well as temporary water play for those that would benefit with it.
Lylat Cruise is a very traitorous stage in terms of ledges.
Delfino Plaza offers a shifting stage for the first match, as well as temporary water play for those that would benefit with it.
Reading, yays.Thiocyanide said:
Walls, walkoffs, water, and a stage with no solid bottom make it a CP.
As a general rule, if it gets struck nearly every time it's not neutral-class. Arguably Yoshi's and Lylat fit that criteria, but as of yet the people I talk to don't have a concrete decision on that one.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Yes, I read your opinion and disagree with it.
Let's look at this from a hypothetical standpoint; all players are equally skilled in every regard, including stage knowledge, etc. Now that we've established that, let's look at stage choices.
Why do we, in this situation, need other stages besides the neutral stages? The only answer could be character balance. Character balance is what dictates the necessity of the counterpicks; were every character equally balanced, the notion that we'd need any more than just Final Destination, Battlefield, and Smashville would be laughable if not ludicrous.
The thing is, you can remove the stage knowledge aspect of that hypothetical and the point is still exactly the same. The point of counterpick stages is to make up for issues in character balance (i.e. bringing something to the game one of the neutrals does not offer). It is not so inflate the number of stages so that somebody who spends a lot of time playing and watching matches on a stage can take somebody who's never played there before and won round one handily and possibly beat them. Yes, MasterDave, I am looking at your match with M2K on Pirate Ship.
You're more than welcome to disagree with me on what you feel is my opinion. The thing is, though, from a balance perspective, my statement is the only correct one, and in my opinion (Yes, this part is opinionated), balance is the only aspect of the game that matters.
I fcking love you Thiocyanide <3
infomon
Smash Scientist
For that matter, why do we need characters other than Metaknight?
.... because diversity for the sake of diversity alone is also important to this game. Even if just a little.
but I agree character balance is the main reason
Linkshot
Smash Hero
That match is actually a prime example of having more stages. So that you can use the stage to counterpick your opponent (as opposed to just giving yourself an advantage).
P.S.: infzy chng ur loc 2 waterloooooo
P.S.: infzy chng ur loc 2 waterloooooo
I'm not clear how screwing Mr. Game & Watch is in the interest of balance.
Anyway, that wasn't your original question; you were asking about skill so I'll focus on skill. In fact, talking about skill would probably be the most productive thing we could do. I'll start with the dictionary definition which doesn't perfectly suit our cause but makes sure we don't stray too far from what words mean.
skill
1 /skɪl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [skil] Show IPA
–noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4. Obsolete. understanding; discernment.
5. Obsolete. reason; cause.
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skill
To sum this up, being skilled at an arbitrary thing is to be adept at it. In a competitive game, we have the extra benefit of a very clear goal. Namely, the goal is to win. To be skilled is to be adept at winning. To sum this logic up, I'll define skill as it pertains to smash bros.
Skill in the context of Super Smash Brothers is defined as the ability to consistently win at the game of Super Smash Brothers.
That is it. If you can win consistently, you are skilled. If you win consistently against someone else, you are more skilled than that person.
The rules aren't considered in that definition of skill, but we can look at the simple implication here. If a more expansive stage list causes a player to not win consistently anymore, it simply means in that context the player is less skilled and whoever is now winning consistently now is more skilled. The only way a different stage list is contrary to skill is if you have less consistent winning in general over the long term, and I don't see any reason to believe that more stages would be opposed to that. Specific people may no longer consistently win, but who cares? If stage knowledge is what makes you win and they don't have it, they aren't skilled. If they refuse to obtain it and continue to lose forever, that would make them scrubs. It's not clear that the diversity adds to the existence of this type of skill either though; the existence of skill is largely independent of stage rules. Only if you allow something like WarioWare or Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 with substantial variance in the matches is this likely to change (notice what I'm not advocating).
However, I did assert in an earlier post that the larger stage list is in the overall benefit of skill in the sense that it tests more, and that comes from a more global concept of being skilled at Super Smash Brothers. Similar amounts of skill will exist with any (reasonable) rules, but the skill will be at what the rules contain and not the "pure" Super Smash Brothers. Obviously Super Smash Brothers has a lot of aspects we don't test for the sake of not making the game broken or more variant (such as items or free for alls), but then again, the more we exclude the less our test of skill is a test of general skill at "Super Smash Brothers". With stages, all 42 of them are a part of the game. Whether anyone likes it or not, the broken Temple is a part of Super Smash Brothers. We just have to accept that, in the interest of promoting competition in the game, we have to not test that aspect of the game. I'm sure that's nothing to a lot of people, but to me at least, that's a big shame. However, when we get to stages like Distant Planet or Luigi's Mansion or PictoChat or whatever, we CAN test those without hurting the game. Well, maybe we disagree over whether any given stage is overly variant (destroying the "skill" sought) or so character biased that it ends up reducing the overall amount we are testing instead of adding to it. It's a good thing to argue really. But, all else being equal, more really is better.
Anyway, that wasn't your original question; you were asking about skill so I'll focus on skill. In fact, talking about skill would probably be the most productive thing we could do. I'll start with the dictionary definition which doesn't perfectly suit our cause but makes sure we don't stray too far from what words mean.
skill
1 /skɪl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [skil] Show IPA
–noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4. Obsolete. understanding; discernment.
5. Obsolete. reason; cause.
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skill
To sum this up, being skilled at an arbitrary thing is to be adept at it. In a competitive game, we have the extra benefit of a very clear goal. Namely, the goal is to win. To be skilled is to be adept at winning. To sum this logic up, I'll define skill as it pertains to smash bros.
Skill in the context of Super Smash Brothers is defined as the ability to consistently win at the game of Super Smash Brothers.
That is it. If you can win consistently, you are skilled. If you win consistently against someone else, you are more skilled than that person.
The rules aren't considered in that definition of skill, but we can look at the simple implication here. If a more expansive stage list causes a player to not win consistently anymore, it simply means in that context the player is less skilled and whoever is now winning consistently now is more skilled. The only way a different stage list is contrary to skill is if you have less consistent winning in general over the long term, and I don't see any reason to believe that more stages would be opposed to that. Specific people may no longer consistently win, but who cares? If stage knowledge is what makes you win and they don't have it, they aren't skilled. If they refuse to obtain it and continue to lose forever, that would make them scrubs. It's not clear that the diversity adds to the existence of this type of skill either though; the existence of skill is largely independent of stage rules. Only if you allow something like WarioWare or Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 with substantial variance in the matches is this likely to change (notice what I'm not advocating).
However, I did assert in an earlier post that the larger stage list is in the overall benefit of skill in the sense that it tests more, and that comes from a more global concept of being skilled at Super Smash Brothers. Similar amounts of skill will exist with any (reasonable) rules, but the skill will be at what the rules contain and not the "pure" Super Smash Brothers. Obviously Super Smash Brothers has a lot of aspects we don't test for the sake of not making the game broken or more variant (such as items or free for alls), but then again, the more we exclude the less our test of skill is a test of general skill at "Super Smash Brothers". With stages, all 42 of them are a part of the game. Whether anyone likes it or not, the broken Temple is a part of Super Smash Brothers. We just have to accept that, in the interest of promoting competition in the game, we have to not test that aspect of the game. I'm sure that's nothing to a lot of people, but to me at least, that's a big shame. However, when we get to stages like Distant Planet or Luigi's Mansion or PictoChat or whatever, we CAN test those without hurting the game. Well, maybe we disagree over whether any given stage is overly variant (destroying the "skill" sought) or so character biased that it ends up reducing the overall amount we are testing instead of adding to it. It's a good thing to argue really. But, all else being equal, more really is better.
AA, I'm just going to have to accept that we're not going to agree on this at all.
I don't feel stage knowledge is skill, I believe it's a time investment. I only feel that stages are used for balancing purposes. That doesn't mean we pick a character, find his best stage, and enable it. It has to be a zero sum game, in the sense that, optimally, the most borderline CP stage would make the worst matchup in the game even. Obviously that isn't the case here.
Oh, and as for GaW... He's a very powerful character who can perform at least decently on many stages, if not better. You'll have a hard time convincing me he needs banned stages moving up to CP to be a viable character. =_=
I don't feel stage knowledge is skill, I believe it's a time investment. I only feel that stages are used for balancing purposes. That doesn't mean we pick a character, find his best stage, and enable it. It has to be a zero sum game, in the sense that, optimally, the most borderline CP stage would make the worst matchup in the game even. Obviously that isn't the case here.
Oh, and as for GaW... He's a very powerful character who can perform at least decently on many stages, if not better. You'll have a hard time convincing me he needs banned stages moving up to CP to be a viable character. =_=
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Show me a video of someone winning due to water camping. Because I have yet to see one. Heck, most of the time water camping will get you killed. Why?
If you camp in the front of the ship you have the following things screwing you up:
-The water is continuously pushing you towards the bow.
-If the wind comes, you are screwed, particularly if you were staying far away from the ship. Most characters can't make it back on with just jumps, they need to use their Up B. Which you simply edgehog, forcing them to either land on the ship and get punished for landing lag, or they get left behind and die. And due to the fact the wind is coming swiftly, it's fairly easy to time a edgehog so they can't just snap onto it.
-The Rock. Either jump onto it, or get pushed against the bow and killed. And unlike the situation with the fin at Cornera, there is more then enough room to get down safely, like you would any other stage if you had gotten hit upwards. Water Camping = ruined.
-Cannons. They may fire slowly, but in the water you are still going to be hard pressed to dodge them without giving up your position.
And if you are in the back water part:
-The ship is a lot closer to the water, meaning projectiles and disjointed hitboxes have an easier time getting to you.
-Wind once again. The camper may be able to get back on easier, but he still just gave up his water camping spot.
-Cannons. Same as before: safest place to be is on the ship. Except now the other guy on the ship can take pop shots at you the entire time you are trying to move out of the way. You're going to take damage.
-The King of Lions. It pushes you closer to the main ship (ya SHing Dairs that spike and only having to worry about hitting a small area!), or you have to jump abroad. And if you do *gasp*, you aren't in the water any more.
Also, this stage does not have the most hazards. Norfair defiantly requires more dodging of hazards due to the fact how often the lava/fire comes. It's what, every 12ish seconds or so you have to dodge something? Port Town Aerial Drive's cars are right up there with the cannons, but they give less warning, and there are a lot more of them, and they occur often. It's in the top half, sure, but not the most besides Mario Bros.
And unlike Norfair, the stage DOESN'T force everyone onto a tiny platform. (lol lava just starting to slowly go down while the side wall is fully out) Heck, you can stay on the main ship the entire time, nothing is forcing you to get off. And if some idiot starts water camping, they will lose. They don't have invincibility frames like they would if they were planking/ledge camping, they are perfectly vulnerable still, and stuff forces them to stop. It's not even a good tactic, heck I lost my last tournament because I began water planking against a Falco as Ike. Took 2 stocks off of me before I could get the last one off, and I started camping in the water once he was down to his last stock.
Extreme Character Bias? It helps characters with bad recoveries (similar to how Mario Circuit does, except you can still die downwards), and gives a bonus to those with good spiking games. If thats "Extreme Character Bias", Jungle Japes has to go, it's extremely bias against those with bad recoveries, and Falco flipping ***** here. Smashville has to go, Snake is too good there. Norfair has to go, it's MK's planking heaven. FD has to go, you can't hide from the ICs here, Falco and D3 are free to cause havoc. You see what I'm getting at? I know it's a bit of an exaggeration but does it get my point across? And who does it REALLY help a lot? Ganondorf, Ness, Lucas, Ike, DK. Out of those characters, only DK is close to a true tournament threat, and he probably benefits the least on this stage out of those 5.
The main point I was getting out when I said "One of these is not like the others" is that unlike the other stages you had grouped Pirate Ship with, it doesn't have anything that instantly strikes it from tournament play. It doesn't have circling, or unblocked walk-offs. Sure, you can hate the stage and think it's gay, that sort of thinking is going to happen. But it doesn't mean you unfairly judge it. I hate Jungle Japes with a passion. I think it's the worse legal stage unless Skyworld is somehow legal at some tournaments, but I don't go out of my way to try to say it's far from tournament legal. Pirate Ship is perfectly tournament legal, it lacks anything to strike it out with.
It's not about Mr. Game & Watch being "viable". It's about him being made a lot worse. He's top tier normally, but when you remove all of those stages, it becomes a lot less clear... Anyway, could you define "skill"? Also, is there any real evidence that a small set of stages is the most balanced? I imagine it's that way superficially in the sense that people play super bad on stages they aren't familiar with and that Meta Knight does really well when everyone plays super bad, but in the long run, I just don't think that's true.
About Pirate Ship, who cares about most characters? Obviously you only use characters who are good at abusing water there. I'll take Mr. Game & Watch.
The water pushing you toward the bow is trivial. You just plain don't get knocked into it.
The wind doesn't screw you. You just grab the ledge, ledgestall a bit, and then fall really slowly in the reduced gravity. If you think you can hold this ledge against Mr. Game & Watch who is coming from below, good luck.
The rock is trivial. Just get on the rock and run away until you can get in the water on the left (only about a second or two of forced vulnurability). Then short hop out of the water and key down deep underwater and emerge inside the rock. You can camp out the transformation in here.
The cannons are a pain to avoid in the water, but they're a pain to avoid in general if they shoot right at you. The fact that they're so random is not helping this course, by the way. They're worse to get hit with than the cars on Port Town Aero Dive and all around harder to avoid due to the huge hit area.
I didn't say most hazards. I said most hazardous. Other than very rare patterns with the fire pillars, Norfair is never actually dangerous. Everything on Norfair is stuff that's easy to avoid, and if you get hit into most of it, it's not a big deal. On Pirate Ship, the right side of the main fighting area (the water in front of the ship) has a nearly constant instant death hazard. That's more dangerous than everything on Norfair put together, especially when guys like Meta Knight can double jump down aerial chain you across the surface of the water into it. Even the spike on Rumble Falls is possible to tech to survive...
I don't think Ike is actually all that good at water stalling, popular myths aside. The real best characters at it are Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, and Jigglypuff. They can just abuse their good aerials in the water and have other abuses (Meta Knight and Jigglypuff can combo across the surface, Jigglypuff can cancel Rest, and Mr. Game & Watch has way too much fun with his up special invincibility). Guys like Ness who are generally great in the air are the other benefactors; Ike just gets to spam Aether which is abnormally hard to punish there.
I don't have any recent videos of Pirate Ship so I can only discuss my own experiences, but every match I have played on the Pirate Ship was a two step program. Step one was I got some lead. Step two was that I played in the water until they suicidally tried to fight me in the water or time ran out. I'll play there since the stage is easy wins against most of the cast, but it seems really obviously broken. I honestly have had better matches on 75m than on Pirate Ship; I'm not even joking here. I'm all about allowing stages even if I don't like them (I do want to allow a bunch of stages a lot of other people don't like and all), and I generally don't like to spend my time fighting to ban anything (better to ban too little than too much!), but when I'm mentioning it in general, I'm not going to deny my very strong experiences on the level that lead me to solidly conclude that it's very broken.
Also, for the record, Jungle Japes doesn't screw characters who have bad recoveries. On the contrary, it helps them a lot. Hold right as you are in the water to swim against the current (VERY important) and time your double jump; don't just mash jump as you exit the water. From beneath the ledge on the left side of the main platform, every single character in the game can recover from landing in the water, including Olimar with no pikmin, Popo alone, and Link. If you land in the water beneath the leftmost ledge, no character can recover, not even Jigglypuff (the current sweeps them away before they can get out of the water). If you notice, recovery ability only matters if you land in the narrow strip of water between those ledges; it's not an important factor on that course.
About Pirate Ship, who cares about most characters? Obviously you only use characters who are good at abusing water there. I'll take Mr. Game & Watch.
The water pushing you toward the bow is trivial. You just plain don't get knocked into it.
The wind doesn't screw you. You just grab the ledge, ledgestall a bit, and then fall really slowly in the reduced gravity. If you think you can hold this ledge against Mr. Game & Watch who is coming from below, good luck.
The rock is trivial. Just get on the rock and run away until you can get in the water on the left (only about a second or two of forced vulnurability). Then short hop out of the water and key down deep underwater and emerge inside the rock. You can camp out the transformation in here.
The cannons are a pain to avoid in the water, but they're a pain to avoid in general if they shoot right at you. The fact that they're so random is not helping this course, by the way. They're worse to get hit with than the cars on Port Town Aero Dive and all around harder to avoid due to the huge hit area.
I didn't say most hazards. I said most hazardous. Other than very rare patterns with the fire pillars, Norfair is never actually dangerous. Everything on Norfair is stuff that's easy to avoid, and if you get hit into most of it, it's not a big deal. On Pirate Ship, the right side of the main fighting area (the water in front of the ship) has a nearly constant instant death hazard. That's more dangerous than everything on Norfair put together, especially when guys like Meta Knight can double jump down aerial chain you across the surface of the water into it. Even the spike on Rumble Falls is possible to tech to survive...
I don't think Ike is actually all that good at water stalling, popular myths aside. The real best characters at it are Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, and Jigglypuff. They can just abuse their good aerials in the water and have other abuses (Meta Knight and Jigglypuff can combo across the surface, Jigglypuff can cancel Rest, and Mr. Game & Watch has way too much fun with his up special invincibility). Guys like Ness who are generally great in the air are the other benefactors; Ike just gets to spam Aether which is abnormally hard to punish there.
I don't have any recent videos of Pirate Ship so I can only discuss my own experiences, but every match I have played on the Pirate Ship was a two step program. Step one was I got some lead. Step two was that I played in the water until they suicidally tried to fight me in the water or time ran out. I'll play there since the stage is easy wins against most of the cast, but it seems really obviously broken. I honestly have had better matches on 75m than on Pirate Ship; I'm not even joking here. I'm all about allowing stages even if I don't like them (I do want to allow a bunch of stages a lot of other people don't like and all), and I generally don't like to spend my time fighting to ban anything (better to ban too little than too much!), but when I'm mentioning it in general, I'm not going to deny my very strong experiences on the level that lead me to solidly conclude that it's very broken.
Also, for the record, Jungle Japes doesn't screw characters who have bad recoveries. On the contrary, it helps them a lot. Hold right as you are in the water to swim against the current (VERY important) and time your double jump; don't just mash jump as you exit the water. From beneath the ledge on the left side of the main platform, every single character in the game can recover from landing in the water, including Olimar with no pikmin, Popo alone, and Link. If you land in the water beneath the leftmost ledge, no character can recover, not even Jigglypuff (the current sweeps them away before they can get out of the water). If you notice, recovery ability only matters if you land in the narrow strip of water between those ledges; it's not an important factor on that course.
bobson
Smash Lord
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Here's an analogy to help you see why this is flawed: Character knowledge does not equate to skill. I could play Metaknight all day and figure out all the combos that usually work, etc. and still be a mediocre player, whereas somebody far better than me might spend all day playing with Luigi and just not know how to fight Metaknight.
Stages are a part of the game and therefore knowledge of the stages is a part of game skill. Losing on Port Town because you didn't know when the cars came is just as much your fault as losing to a Metaknight because you didn't know not to chase him offstage.
You can't watch somebody play a character all day and then go and know everything there is to know (Maybe slightly less the case in Brawl than other fighters, but if you tell me you know how to boostsmash after watch Sheik do it enough you're full of it). That's not the case with stages.
Once again, stages are enabled for balance. They are there to offset the fact that there are imbalances between characters. In a perfect game there would be ONE STAGE where all characters performed equally well. Since that isn't the case, we allow stages that give advantages to some and disadvantages to others with the caveat that the stage doesn't grossly overpower a character to the point that he's the only obvious choice to play on that given stage. GaW and T.Link are the two most powerful characters on Pirate Ship, and honestly I wouldn't play anybody else there; if I had to I'd just HUGS cancel the match and CP one of my own stages.
bobson
Smash Lord
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Uh. So?
Why on earth does that matter?
And... the stage setup we have now, possibly excepting Luigi's Mansion and Corneria, accomplishes that, yes? There are even a few banned stages that would still be acceptable with that goal.
What? Why? The only thing I can think of offhand is Toon Link's dair when the opponent is in the water.
infomon
Smash Scientist
o noez! k thx
Let's just turn on all stages, since I'm too dense to make any legitimate argument for anything.
The stage on his list have no elements that heavily tip the scales whatsoever. Why not stick to his list? I mean, these stages are not so "exotic" meaning people will FIGHT their opponent instead of using the stages for assistance. It is FIGHTING game. Hosestly, how many other fighting games do you see with things such as crocodiles jumping up for the sole purpose of chomping you in the anus on ALMOST EVERY stage?
bobson
Smash Lord
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How many other fighting games have a significant air game? How many other fighting games have barely any combos? How many other fighting games even come close to the way Brawl's characters move?
The fact that you have to think about where you are and what's coming on most stages is one of the things that makes Smash unique. If you only want to play on Flatland, go play Street Fighter.
Maybe smash should be stripped of some of it's "uniqueness" if we want a better game.
bobson
Smash Lord
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Maybe you shouldn't be playing Smash if you don't like what it offers.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
I'm going to have to agree with Amazing Ampharos here.
Skill isn't just, "Who can do best on a flat stage, gogogo." While stages shouldn't be majorly interfering with core gameplay like Spear Pillar, and shouldn't have walk-off ledges or stupid things like Hyrule or Bridge of Eldin, we should be able to find out which stages are fair, bring diversity, and don't add a huge amount of luck.
For example, Norfair. It has the rising lava, just like Brinstar (which is a perfectly fine CP stage). It has lava coming from the side, which warrants the same moving around as the aforementioned, just in a different direction. The lava that engulfs the entire stage can be shielded or dodged. And the lava that sprays can also be shielded and dodged, and you can just move to avoid it like the first two types of lavas. There's nothing wrong with this stage except for the fact that you're often moving while fighting, but why is that a problem? The moving should be subconscious, and if your opponent is trying to abuse the lava by throwing you into it, just don't get grabbed. While if this is banned in some tournaments, I perfectly understand why, but I don't agree that it should be banned overall.
Or Luigi's Mansion...why is this considered as a ban at all? There's destructable walls. You can destroy the rooms by just hitting the pillars, if the long survival rate is bugging you that much. This is a stage where I honestly don't understand why it's banned, so someone please inform me.
Some people are going to like just the flat stages, and some people are going to like more diverse stages. But simply disliking something doesn't give it reason to ban. Norfair is a stage in which if you play on it like 3 times, you'll know all the tricks to it and avoiding the hazards will be subconscious and easy.
I'm all for "innocent until proven guilty" like AA. Some people just look at a stage and write it off; some with good reason, like Eldin, but debatable ones like Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Norfair, etc., just get banned instead of tested. Really, I've never died solely from the stage in Norfair and I play on it a lot; I've died once or twice by someone throwing me into the lava coming from the side, but I was already at a high percent that I could have died a different way.
These counterpick/banned stages or some counterpick stages, as of now, DON'T tip the scales heavily for either opponent, and until there's a noticable problem that a stage does, it shouldn't be banned from the overall SBR stage list.
Skill isn't just, "Who can do best on a flat stage, gogogo." While stages shouldn't be majorly interfering with core gameplay like Spear Pillar, and shouldn't have walk-off ledges or stupid things like Hyrule or Bridge of Eldin, we should be able to find out which stages are fair, bring diversity, and don't add a huge amount of luck.
For example, Norfair. It has the rising lava, just like Brinstar (which is a perfectly fine CP stage). It has lava coming from the side, which warrants the same moving around as the aforementioned, just in a different direction. The lava that engulfs the entire stage can be shielded or dodged. And the lava that sprays can also be shielded and dodged, and you can just move to avoid it like the first two types of lavas. There's nothing wrong with this stage except for the fact that you're often moving while fighting, but why is that a problem? The moving should be subconscious, and if your opponent is trying to abuse the lava by throwing you into it, just don't get grabbed. While if this is banned in some tournaments, I perfectly understand why, but I don't agree that it should be banned overall.
Or Luigi's Mansion...why is this considered as a ban at all? There's destructable walls. You can destroy the rooms by just hitting the pillars, if the long survival rate is bugging you that much. This is a stage where I honestly don't understand why it's banned, so someone please inform me.
Some people are going to like just the flat stages, and some people are going to like more diverse stages. But simply disliking something doesn't give it reason to ban. Norfair is a stage in which if you play on it like 3 times, you'll know all the tricks to it and avoiding the hazards will be subconscious and easy.
I'm all for "innocent until proven guilty" like AA. Some people just look at a stage and write it off; some with good reason, like Eldin, but debatable ones like Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Norfair, etc., just get banned instead of tested. Really, I've never died solely from the stage in Norfair and I play on it a lot; I've died once or twice by someone throwing me into the lava coming from the side, but I was already at a high percent that I could have died a different way.
These counterpick/banned stages or some counterpick stages, as of now, DON'T tip the scales heavily for either opponent, and until there's a noticable problem that a stage does, it shouldn't be banned from the overall SBR stage list.
bobson
Smash Lord
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The main reason Luigi's Mansion is debatable is because of how easy it is to stall out the timer. Matches there generally take longer anyway due to the huge blastzones, and this combined with the projectile blockers to prevent forcing approaches and the pseudo cave of immortality and circle camping effects mean the timer almost always runs out against a campy opponent (and it's Brawl, so most opponents should be campy).
You can destroy the mansion, but it returns in 20 seconds. And if your opponent is abusing it, they probably won't just let you wreck it.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Yeah, which is why I like staling while destroying it. You can stall too well there but I think it should not be banned. Even though banning it would help me a lot.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Eh, I was just talking about KamiKaze*. But for that matter, it seems that a few of us did reply to your post, just not "directly to that question"; because instead we were arguing against the premises behind it. You said that (in my words), having skill at dealing with unique stage properties is not a legitimate dimension of player skill, and I simply disagree. Amongst other things, I guess.
As a TO, they've already been proven guilty in my eyes, and nobody's done anything to change my (evident?) misconceptions about them.
And for the last time, knowing when and where certain things that disrupt play are going to happen on a stage is not skill. It's knowing something. A non-smash player can know stage patterns and intricacies. I'm never going to compromise on that point, and neither is the Atlantic North, most likely.
So, for the time being, you may want to give up on what is an extremely hopeless (And wrong) argument, and focus on what you can do, which is tell me how the stages you mention somehow bring out more elements of balance in the character roster.
But this is the problem, they're using the STAGE to help lead them to victory instead of FIGHTING to help lead them to victory. It is a FIGHTING game.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
So, maps affect character ability. Win the first game so you don't have to worry about the stage.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
If they throw you into the lava, they're fighting you by using the stage. It's not the stage fighting you, you just put yourself in that position.
By this logic, I can say bottom death zones are a hazard because you can get spiked into them.
Bottom line: You put yourself in that position, and you got punished.
EDIT: If you don't like variance in stages, but enjoy general simplicity, I suggest SWR to you.
By this logic, I can say bottom death zones are a hazard because you can get spiked into them.
Bottom line: You put yourself in that position, and you got punished.
EDIT: If you don't like variance in stages, but enjoy general simplicity, I suggest SWR to you.
bobson
Smash Lord
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Knowledge is a part of skill. You cannot be skillful in an area if you do not have knowledge in said area. A skillful punisher requires the knowledge of which moves are punishable.
Would you excuse a loss on Final Destination because a player didn't know that the lips could gimp them? Because knowing that the lips are dangerous is just knowledge that anyone can find out and it doesn't relate to skill?
On top of this, why does this even matter in deciding a stage list?
So?!
The stage is a tool to use against your opponent. If you classify throwing your opponent into the lava as "not fighting" because the stage allowed it by having hazards, then I classify chaingrabbing as "not fighting" because the stage allowed it by being flat. I also classify Snake's tilts as not fighting because he can only use them due to the stage having ground.
But the character is the only one doing the damage when it comes to chain grabbing or tilting. Which is how a FIGHTING game should be.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Knowledge is a part of skill as aforementioned, although honestly since we have different opinions of words, I doubt we're going to agree here. However, whether it's part of skill or not isn't that important. It takes like all of five minutes to learn a stage like Mansion or Norfair, and if someone isn't willing to do that because they don't like the stage, it's their problem.
So, for the time being, you may want to give up on what is an extremely hopeless (And wrong) argument, and focus on what you can do, which is tell me how the stages you mention somehow bring out more elements of balance in the character roster.[/QUOTE]
Neutrals don't bring out more elements of balance in the character roster (overall), nor do really any of the stages, so requesting this for debatable CPs...?
But certain stages do help against certain people and for certain match-ups. A stage like Rainbow Cruise greatly reduces camping games, so against a person who camps a lot, it's good. Plus, it's a bad stage for characters with worse aerials/aerial mobility and hurts a more ground-control game for characters like Snake and Diddy. Norfair can really help camping game, and is good for aerial characters while still not too bad for ones with bad aerials.
Some stages are just good counterpicks for certain characters and certain strategies, which is why I'm all for keeping Norfair and Luigi's Mansion as counterpicks. Some stages that are debatable are basically just the regular flat stage lay-out with hazards, which is why I'm not fond of Pictochat and Distant Planet, and I find it pretty understandable why they're banned.
The stage list you've provided is very good, my only gripes are that I really think Norfair and Luigi's Mansion should be counterpicks, because they both provide something very different and the hazards/obstacles don't interrupt play to the point where stages like Spear Pillar and Shadow Moses would.
...basically I've changed my argument to, "Keep Luigi's Mansion and Norfair as CPs."
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Smash is different than other fighting games. Throwing your opponent into the side-lava in Norfair (which is really one of the only places where someone can abuse the stage) could be argued that it's like Dair spiking someone into the ground/wall of any other stage....just that the lava is untechable and you take damage.
Dislike for a stage because it's out of the norm isn't enough to warrant a ban. Really, just avoid getting grabbed for those 15 seconds when the side lava comes, and your opponent can't really abuse the stage.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
well can't you destroy all but one corner of LM then leave it alone for a while? sure the other person can go hid in it, but not like before. and if they attempt to break it you can be right there for the 20 secs KO.
too bad it still can be used for stalling still...
too bad it still can be used for stalling still...
bobson
Smash Lord
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Well I say that shouldn't be how a FIGHTING game should be, so NYEAH NYEAH NYEAH.
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