Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Deoxys]

If it is such a bad stage for your character, yes, it will always get struck unless you suck.

Well, obv, but that's not the hypotheical situation that AA was adressing.

 

[∫unk]

someone explain this to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK4piW2FQ-M&feature=related

 

[Deoxys]

someone explain this to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK4piW2FQ-M&feature=related

Sometimes players fall through PS1 when a form appears.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Nice. Moral of the story is: don't fall through Pokemon Stadium 1.

 

[∫unk]

And this stage is legal >_>

I already hate the ****ing windmill

imo PS2 is better better designed

 

[Deoxys]

And this stage is legal >_>

I already hate the ****ing windmill

imo PS2 is better better designed

I agree about PS2, but the stage should obviously be legal. If you're affected by a known, avoidable glitch, it's your fault. IMO, the Marth player deserved to lose the stock. He took a risk, and it didn't pay off. Maybe he'll play more inteligently next time. If he didn't know it could happen, well it sucks for him but he should learn the legal stages inside and out.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Incidentally, why are Summit and Hanenbow banned? Hanenbow seems pretty inoffensive (if rather bizzare).

Summit has the fish which can eat you if you're in the water while down in the water. Is that the only reason why? Or is there something else as well?

 

[Deoxys]

Incidentally, why are Summit and Hanenbow banned? Hanenbow seems pretty inoffensive (if rather bizzare).

Summit has the fish which can eat you if you're in the water while down in the water. Is that the only reason why? Or is there something else as well?

They both allow circle camping.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Obvs obvs obvs.

Thanks, I was being stupid.

 

[The Milk Monster]

And this stage is legal >_>

I already hate the ****ing windmill

imo PS2 is better better designed

I like PS2 better then PS1.
PS2(lol I just got it) was designed from scratch for Brawl,
PS1 was a rehash of the Melee one with some added dumb crap, like the Final D like edges( if they were in Melee I never knew, they never bothered me.), the Windmill being solid, it seems like a shorter ceiling, and etc.
PS2, the only really aggravating thing about it is the air part, and PS1 had a section that was usually camped out anyways.

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

This is stupid. Do you go around blatantly assuming that anyone disagreeing with you didn't play on the stage?
Seriously.

Let alone even if I didn't, I wouldn't need to play on a stage. I just need to know that randomly appearing cards/platforms and instant death upon landing on the road +ability to camp someone to death=bad

It's not instant death landing on the road. Also, what match up is camped out?

Try using Pit.

I did. Pit's terrible landing lag makes it so he will die pretty easily. However, his triple jump+gliding+UpB allow for a pretty decent recovery.

No one cares about your experience.

Alright.

Really?

Yes.

klapttrap runs on a 10 second interval. The water runs slower and you can recover more easily. you also aren't dealing with a constantly changing landscape.

If you get hit by the klaptrap, then you're probably going to die. In the middle of a match it's not always easy to keep track of the timer since you're going to be focusing on the match itself.

It seems like you cannot read otherwise, your statement would not have been made. Let alone an overpowering strategy is not necessary since the entire time, characters are fighting the STAGE not each other.
It interferes with gameplay to an extreme degree, otherwise, Rumble falls shouldn't be banned!

An overpowering strategy should necessitate a ban because it compromises gameplay to a degree that makes the game unplayable(infinites, camping, etc.). The only thing over powering about BB might be camping. As for Rumble Falls, I thought the OP'ing strat was CG->death since a lot of the platforms almost extend into the blast lines and as such it was banned.

Big blue shouldn't be banned, it should be CP. If you dislike the stage and the other person dislikes the stage, then neither will pick it. But just because a stage is unpleasant doens't mean it should be banned.

 

[Linkshot]

Big Blue is definitely worth a CP. Rumble Falls is, too; there are only 2 spots that you can CG->Death on. Beginning bottom and where it shifts to the right. (at the death spike)

Also, camping on Big Blue? Good luck with that XD All the standing areas shift so much.

Consider this: Poke Floats was CP in Melee. Why isn't BB in Brawl, for this reason?

EDIT! I may be wrong about Rumble on the parts that extend to the left only.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Big Blue also allows circling when the Falcon Flier is around, which lasts long enough to be worth a ban, and thats on top of the fact you are fighting the stage more then your opponent, you are punished for shielding by being punished onto the track which is death 95% of the time (unlike Jungle Japes, you have a good chance of making it back if you fall into the right side as long as your name isn't Link or Olimar), and characters like Pit DO get more then a fair advantage. BB is a LOT worse then Poke Floats. Poke Floats had a set pattern, was shaped in such a way you couldn't really circle, and didn't have "touch this after shielding and die" areas.

RF forces you to focus on keeping up with the stage rather then fighting your opponent. It moves faster then the IC stage in Melee, and the speed up zones last longer as well, topped with the fact there are extremely strong spikes, and no jump through areas which can easily kill during a speed up. The walk-offs are just the final straw.

 

[deepseadiva]

Big Blue also allows circling when the Falcon Flier is around, which lasts long enough to be worth a ban, and thats on top of the fact you are fighting the stage more then your opponent, you are punished for shielding by being punished onto the track which is death 95% of the time (unlike Jungle Japes, you have a good chance of making it back if you fall into the right side as long as your name isn't Link or Olimar), and characters like Pit DO get more then a fair advantage. BB is a LOT worse then Poke Floats. Poke Floats had a set pattern, was shaped in such a way you couldn't really circle, and didn't have "touch this after shielding and die" areas.

RF forces you to focus on keeping up with the stage rather then fighting your opponent. It moves faster then the IC stage in Melee, and the speed up zones last longer as well, topped with the fact there are extremely strong spikes, and no jump through areas which can easily kill during a speed up. The walk-offs are just the final straw.

I have to say, while I'm still on the fence on Blue, this seems reasonable. I agree with all of it.

Except the part in blue - I still don't believe in "too good" a counterpick.

 

[Linkshot]

Nid, have you actually played on Rumble Falls with somebody? I have. It's just more aerial based. It's actually slower than IG. The Speed Up lasts longer but is much less devastating than IG's speed up, I find. You can actually have solid matches on RF, and the battle isn't revolved around keeping up with the stage. You have to do it on RC, too. The hazards are predictable, much more than the klaptrap is.

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

Big Blue also allows circling when the Falcon Flier is around, which lasts long enough to be worth a ban.

You have a good point, so I decided to test it myself. I found that as soon as the match starts you can circle camp for precisely 25 seconds before it becomes a walk off. When it returns is kind of weird. Some matches it was at 3:24 seconds in, others it was at 4:36 seconds in. In either case, circle camping was viable about 5 seconds later for about 45 seconds. This makes for a total of 70 seconds of circle camping(the second time the flier came around it was never at the timer). Assuming you're playing a 7 minute match(420 seconds), you can only circle camp for roughly 1/6th of the match and no more as the level is restrictive that way. The level also didn't have the falcon flier appearing at the last few seconds thereby preventing a victory by circle camping.

The Falcon Flier does not merit a ban. You can't win by circle camping. The other player will have to come down sometime and there will be enough time to make a come back.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@CvO: Any stage with any amount of circling is, as far as I know, banned. Big Blue has circling. I believe it's possible to use those black orb things to sort of a small circle, but I'm not confident enough to use that as a point. Either way, it's a problem that can not be ignored.

@Link: Yes I have. The speed in RF is without a doubt worse then at IM. As for your Rainbow Cruise point: RC is MUCH slower, and a LOT less difficult to keep up. RC, the only thing you have to worry about is remembering how long the pendulum has been out and possibly the falling blocks. RC is also movement in all 4 directions apposed to just trying to jump fast enough to keep up. The walk-offs during the slow parts, the trapping solid no jump through parts, and the spikes at RF are a lot more worrysome. RF isn't aerial combat heavy during the speed ups. It's just jumping heavy. If you aren't using an aerial move with ACing during the speed up, you are in trouble. During the normal parts it's aerial based sure, but that isn't a complaint.

Basically, RF is IM, but worse. And IM was banned in Melee. I'm sure arguments were made back then to let IM be legal, but it wasn't made as such. And if RF is worse, with a greater impact on the game play then IM in Melee, why should it be legal?

@Meno: I believe there is a very small amount of such things as too good of an advantage. All of them on banned stages. (Falco or Pit on BoE for example.)

 

[deepseadiva]

@Meno: I believe there is a very small amount of such things as too good of an advantage. All of them on banned stages. (Falco or Pit on BoE for example.)

I suppose I should reword to say, I don't believe their is any such thing as "too good" a counterpick outside of broken advantages.

Bridge, and walkoffs and walls in general, are banned due to chaingrabbing insta-wins - at least far as I know.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I suppose I should reword to say, I don't believe their is any such thing as "too good" a counterpick outside of broken advantages.

Bridge, and walkoffs and walls in general, are banned due to chaingrabbing insta-wins - at least far as I know.

True, but you have to admit: Ganon doesn't have a hope against Pit at BoE.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

The apples do explode occasionally, I think they exploded more often in melee, however.

As for Big Blue, just imagine Falco CPing it... It would be dair spike **** all day, if you try to run, he'll have no trouble lasering, and if you approach, you risk being shieldgrabbed into a dthrow >dair spike.

LOLs if you're still serious about legalizing Big Blue.

EDIT Wow, somethings wrong with my browser... all of this conversation did not exist on my comp before I posted this message, so its a little late for the big blue discussion lol

 

[Linkshot]

Nothing's wrong; forums don't auto-update, if you haven't noticed yet.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If you think Rumble Falls is a worse Icicle Mountain, you are crazy. For one, Icicle Mountain was ridiculously narrow horizontally; it was a gamebreaking advantage for Marth who could essentially kill with a tippered fsmash at any time. Rumble Falls is substantially wider so you don't die ridiculously low. For two, Icicle Mountain was completely random and radically faster than Rumble Falls (seriously, I don't know how you can dispute this). Like, if you just sat around for say an hour on Icicle Mountain alone as Bowser, it would get pretty hard to live sometimes. It sometimes did things like go up so fast that characters like Bowser could just barely keep up, and then it had the fun trick of randomly starting to go down super fast when you were on a part of the stage you couldn't pass through. Also, Peach had a huge edge because her float didn't just help her keep up; she automatically kept up entirely with her floating so she basically had the easy ability to attack characters struggling to keep up with zero risk to herself.

The last problem with Icicle Mountain is that it was ridiculously huge in addition to random. I like to be an advocate of stage knowledge, but actually gaining stage knowledge of Icicle Mountain was pretty ridiculous since it was a completely different experience every time you played it. Actually learning to use the stage well required a dedication to learning Icicle Mountain very, very far above what was required for every other stage. This is perhaps not actually a reason to ban it, but in the face of the large number of glaring flaws that are not shared with Rumble Falls, it doesn't make you want Icicle Mountain to be legal no matter what you have to say about Rumble Falls.

I don't think either stage has actual walk-offs. I know for a fact that on Rumble Falls every single "walk-off" actually ends shortly before the blast zones. They're still exploitable in the sense that you can do things like King Dedede dthrow chain -> fthrow, but let's call them what they actually are. I think Icicle Mountain was the same way; it had at least some of the seeming walk-offs like that.

It's very easy to memorize Rumble Falls and simply never get stuck under things. Not even the slowest jumpers like Zelda really have that much trouble keeping up if you have a little practice with the slight "wind" effect during speed up. There is a lot of jumping around true, but it's really not that hard to launch a coherent attack during the speed up portion as long as you have a good grasp of how fast your character is going to move. None of the spikes are fatal because they are not only fixed in position but the ones that hit hard enough to have a reasonable chance at killing are in positions where they can be teched.

Rumble Falls isn't actually broken; the main issue is that it's just too radical for most people, and they get spooked because it reminds them of Icicle Mountain. Most people play terribly on the stage like they forget everything they know about the game so it gives really wrong impressions. I really am not trying to get it legal just because it's one of those stages that if you fight for it just ruins your ability to compromise with the people who look at the game differently. Big Blue is kinda the same way... I play these levels in friendlies enough to have a good grasp of them (Big Blue is kinda stupid but not obviously broken and as an aside pretty bad for Falco; Rumble Falls is definitely fair). I've said this before, but I really suggest that we spend more time focusing on counterpicks that can actually be saved. Spending so much time fighting battles like Rumble Falls or Big Blue where not even people who like to allow more stages are sure about them and everyone who doesn't is completely against them to the point of not even being willing to listen just weakens the ability to focus on battles that may be winnable.

So Deoxys, I wasn't under the impression that Norfair was at serious risk, but you mentioned you thought it was. Is that a good stage to focus on next, or should I try to sell you on Green Greens?

My ultimate goal in this topic is to compile strong arguments in favor of several of these "at risk" counterpicks as well as in favor of the 7 stage striking. Hopefully those will be useful in stopping the current trend toward the loss of stages.

 

[buenob]

i think a lot of levels should be allowed... like I really think skyworld should be legal... but I honestly think green greens should 100% be banned

the apples, not a problem... randomness in the type of blocks that fall, also not a big deal... temporary walls? not too crazy... completely repeatable and annoyingly easy to accidentally set up invisible explosions... less competitive...

the ability (for metaknight) to stall under the level == ban

a lot of characters can, but MK is just the best at it... he can basically infinitely camp under the level, going from ledge to ledge, and what's worse, is that it's possible to attack while camping under the stage...

in my opinion, there is a single strategy that is just better than all the rest on GG's, therefore it should be banned

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm not sure how you are accidentally setting up the exploding field...

Anyway, stalling under the level doesn't matter simply because that's broken on about half of the levels in the game. It's broken on Skyworld too. It's broken on Smashville. It's broken on Battlefield. You can even do it on Norfair. It's pretty much just defined as stalling and banned; I don't think it's grounds for banning Green Greens.

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

As for Big Blue, just imagine Falco CPing it... It would be dair spike **** all day, if you try to run, he'll have no trouble lasering, and if you approach, you risk being shieldgrabbed into a dthrow >dair spike.

LOLs if you're still serious about legalizing Big Blue.

Falco's dthrow->dair is one of the reasons why he's so good to begin with. Big Blue certainly has lots of problems on it. However, the stage isn't broken, and that's what I'm trying to say. It's not broken to the point where it is unplayable, which is why I still say that it should be CP.

Shadowlink is right; that stage is bad, but it's not ban worthy and this should be CP. Until there is empirical evidence of it being broken, it should remain legal.

 

[buenob]

well the exploding field obviously happens accidentally because it happens under a certain set of conditions which occur semi regularly... it obviously happened by accident the first time too... i'm just saying, it's possible for it to happen randomly during your match, and then what? start again? wait it out? how do you test to see if it's done? is that fair?

and the problem with the camping is that it's not _exactly_ stalling... go under, run away, pop up, approach from underneath with invincibility, hit them with your ledge game, then go back... it can easily be argued that it's the best way to approach your opponent...

if someone can find it there was a mk ditto on green greens for the 5th match of a grand finals, and one of them just suicided his last stock because he was tired of fighting under the level... I can't for the life of me find it again, but i know i was linked to it from somewhere on the boards

 

[Nicole]

and the problem with the camping is that it's not _exactly_ stalling... go under, run away, pop up, approach from underneath with invincibility, hit them with your ledge game, then go back... it can easily be argued that it's the best way to approach your opponent...

but you could just stand in the middle of the level, or on one of the platforms in the middle, to avoid your opponents attacks, couldn't you? at least that would force them to stop chilling under the level.

plus, GG is too fun to be illegal

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

I see what he's saying. If the other person is in the lead, then you have to approach them, you can't just chill in the middle of the level.

Why not just ban such stalling then, if it's so broken?

 

[Titanium Dragon]

If you get hit by the klaptrap, then you're probably going to die. In the middle of a match it's not always easy to keep track of the timer since you're going to be focusing on the match itself.

Why should it be -easy-?

Answer: no reason at all.

It gives an advantange to the person who has more concentration resources, and that's not a bad thing.

Big Blue also allows circling when the Falcon Flier is around, which lasts long enough to be worth a ban, and thats on top of the fact you are fighting the stage more then your opponent, you are punished for shielding by being punished onto the track which is death 95% of the time (unlike Jungle Japes, you have a good chance of making it back if you fall into the right side as long as your name isn't Link or Olimar), and characters like Pit DO get more then a fair advantage. BB is a LOT worse then Poke Floats. Poke Floats had a set pattern, was shaped in such a way you couldn't really circle, and didn't have "touch this after shielding and die" areas.

You can only camp on the Falcon Flier for 70 seconds tops; that's hardly game-breaking, and the first time you start out on it, so its not a really useful strategy at that point (about a third of that 70 seconds); you generally want to get enough ahead before you start doing it, and you cannot do it when it is most effective (the end of the match). Sure, delaying for, say, 70 seconds might be useful, but its not amazing and you have to do at least 25 seconds of it fairly preemptively - you have to stop CCing and start actually fighting, and if you're behind at the second time you cannot use it at all.

And its not that difficult to deal with Big Blue. The idea that you spend lots of time "fighting the stage" indicates you simply aren't good at playing on the stage at all. I'm quite used to it, and I don't spend all that much concentration on the stage; I spend it on fighting.

RF forces you to focus on keeping up with the stage rather then fighting your opponent. It moves faster then the IC stage in Melee, and the speed up zones last longer as well, topped with the fact there are extremely strong spikes, and no jump through areas which can easily kill during a speed up. The walk-offs are just the final straw.

Uh, no, it does not. Its quite slow; keeping up with it is quite easy generally. Yes, sometimes you do have to spend time climbing the stage, but guess what? That doesn't mean the fight ends at that point, and you can (and should!) attack during that time, when they're likely distracted. If you know the stage well, you can be on the offensive while they're trying to figure out how to play on the stage because they didn't bother practicing on it.

Its much slower than the equivalent melee stage, and the fact that you think otherwise indicates you have no experience with either.

Then again, this seems to be your excuse for it: I suck at it, therefore it is unfair. A common argument amongst those with too little love of the game.

Seriously, neither level is unmanagable, and they're perfectly valid CPs, both against unskilled players and for actual matchup advantage reasons.

 

[MysticKenji]

I don't think either stage has actual walk-offs. I know for a fact that on Rumble Falls every single "walk-off" actually ends shortly before the blast zones.

There actually is one true walk-off on RF but it's only there for like 5 or 10 seconds.

 

[Mic_128]

There's actually a fairly decent number of em.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Which areas are being claimed as true walk-offs?

 

[Deoxys]

So Big Blue should be banned because of super ******** stuff like Falco, amirite? I never really understood the reasoning behind banning it, but now that I consider stuff like Falco I see why it needs to be banned.

RF is just a ton of stupid things culminating in a really, really stupid stage. IDK if that means we should ban it or not, though.

 

[DQP]

the only legal stages should be:
battlefield
fd
yoshi's island
lylat cruise
smashville

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Seriously, Falco is bad on Big Blue. Falco just isn't built to constantly be jumping at opponents or to fight on small, uneven platforms which is what you need on Big Blue. His down aerial isn't even very good there; you can just tech off the track which ends up meaning he has FEWER opportunities to land a fatal meteor than on other stages. He can't really chaingrab on the cars either. The actually really good characters there are more like Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, and Jigglypuff (I think Marth is pretty good there too, and I can easily see someone like Toon Link or Pit played smart making that into a great stage for them). Basically, having good aerial approaches means the movements of the cars doesn't really matter for you, and you can easily break the opponent's ability to hold out on an oddly shaped car or something. Having moves that essentially cover the entire cars like Meta Knight's down smash, Mr. Game & Watch's down smash, or Marth's forward smash is a big deal as well. None of these things that are actually powerful on Big Blue apply to Falco, and his projectile game kinda sucks there since the stage is usually not flat enough for him to be able to shoot things with his linear projectile.

Anyway, about Green Greens... I made this horrible image of the "safe" areas on the stage so to speak.

Blue areas are areas where you will never be attacked by hazards ever. If you are in a blue area, you are completely safe from everything the stage can do except the completely benign possibility of being pushed by the wind (I assume everyone agrees that's not a big deal).

Green areas only have to fear exploding apples. Apples appear rarely, and then after a good while (plenty of time to get away from them if they appear next to you) have a very small chance of exploding. In effect, all the exploding does is add a risk-reward to chasing after apples that have just appeared. You risk them exploding in exchange for the reward of being able to grab them as soon as possible. If you don't want to take the risk, you can opt out and wait for any explosive apples to detonate (just know the timing on exploding apples so you don't have to actually see an explosion to know the risk has passed).

The red areas are the areas where blocks, including bomb blocks, can fall. They fall from the top of the screen when the column of blocks beneath them does not have the highest position filled, and they fill the lowest unobstructed position. If you do not want to risk being blasted by a bomb, simply do not go into the red areas when the top row of blocks is not filled. Alternatively, stick lower in the red area where you have time to see the blocks coming. I don't see how someone who supports Port Town could find these areas so distressing. If you go there, you know your risks and what can happen. You have areas you can go (most of the stage!) where there is no such risk. Even just getting hit in there is you messing up.

Seriously, random death is not a problem on Green Greens. Green Greens is a very "safe" stage that is very predictable in terms of the things it can do that hurt the players.

 

[Linkshot]

I see the argument of "I haven't learned it, thus it should be banned" being used a lot, and actually being put into effect by tourney hosts...which is sad.

By the same knowledge, I could argue that I can't get past the lip, so FD is banned. The balloon and shy guys gimp Jigglypuff. Ban Yoshi's and Smashville.

Seriously, just practice fighting on the stage instead of watching how CPUs do on them. Learn the stage and have a match with somebody else that knows it.

The only stages I will never support are Temple, New Pork City, Mario Bros, and Spear Pillar. I'm slightly in favour of the 75m ban because Zelda just camps in the bottom right and it's GG.

 

[buenob]

what would happen in a tournament if the invisible explosions accidentally happened?

beyond that, how can you 'ban' ledge game when there are 6 ledges to choose from... it's too qualitative to enforce in a tournament... you can't do 3 ledge attacks in a row without touching the level? then they would do 2, then run to the other side of the level underneath, forcing you to jump through the danger zones, land on the level, then go back under... it's a broken strat that has easy ways around any soft-bans you could possibly throw at it

the level needs to be banned

 

[ColinJF]

what would happen in a tournament if the invisible explosions accidentally happened?

beyond that, how can you 'ban' ledge game when there are 6 ledges to choose from... it's too qualitative to enforce in a tournament... you can't do 3 ledge attacks in a row without touching the level? then they would do 2, then run to the other side of the level underneath, forcing you to jump through the danger zones, land on the level, then go back under... it's a broken strat that has easy ways around any soft-bans you could possibly throw at it

the level needs to be banned

Replace "invisible explosions" by "falling through the stage" and "6 ledges" by "2 ledges" and you have an equally convincing argument to ban Smashville. Talk about a broken stage.

 

[Linkshot]

Buenob, Green Greens is just really a counterpick for floating/gliding characters. Any character could easily just wait for them to fill, or hit through to avoid bombs. You could even manipulate them until the bottom row is entirely bombs, effectively removing 2 edges from your camping opponent.

 

[Deoxys]

the only legal stages should be:
battlefield
fd
yoshi's island
lylat cruise
smashville

Your argument is sound. >_>

Seriously, Falco is bad on Big Blue. Falco just isn't built to constantly be jumping at opponents or to fight on small, uneven platforms which is what you need on Big Blue. His down aerial isn't even very good there; you can just tech off the track which ends up meaning he has FEWER opportunities to land a fatal meteor than on other stages. He can't really chaingrab on the cars either. The actually really good characters there are more like Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, and Jigglypuff (I think Marth is pretty good there too, and I can easily see someone like Toon Link or Pit played smart making that into a great stage for them). Basically, having good aerial approaches means the movements of the cars doesn't really matter for you, and you can easily break the opponent's ability to hold out on an oddly shaped car or something. Having moves that essentially cover the entire cars like Meta Knight's down smash, Mr. Game & Watch's down smash, or Marth's forward smash is a big deal as well. None of these things that are actually powerful on Big Blue apply to Falco, and his projectile game kinda sucks there since the stage is usually not flat enough for him to be able to shoot things with his linear projectile.

Ah. My mistake. So do you support its legality? It sounds like it.

Replace "invisible explosions" by "falling through the stage" and "6 ledges" by "2 ledges" and you have an equally convincing argument to ban Smashville. Talk about a broken stage.

Vids please. I've never heard of it. But yes, then we should ban it if there's no pattern, or at least make it CP. That said, I think you're confused.