Official Stage Legality Discussion

[The_Altrox]

I'm surprised Skyworld isn't completely banned. I use Olimar, so if somebody breaks the grab platforms, I'm screwed

 

[infomon]

^^ that's why it's an effective counterpick against Olimar. The SBR rules allow you to change your character after the stage is chosen.

 

[Deoxys]

I'm surprised Skyworld isn't completely banned. I use Olimar, so if somebody breaks the grab platforms, I'm screwed

This:

^^ that's why it's an effective counterpick against Olimar. The SBR rules allow you to change your character after the stage is chosen.

You shouldn't be surprised if you understand the purpose of banning stages. It's not to keep your fav character from getting *****; it's to keep the fundamentals of competitive Smash intact.

Umm, I really think that Halberd should be completely banned, it changes alot, things that attack you, and sometimes u retardedly fall through the floating part of the stage

Let's organize your argument:

Halberd should be banned because:
1. It changes a lot.
2. Hazards attack.
3. If you suck you SD there.

1. ROFL
2. LOL, the hazards are weak, obvious, and easily avoided.
3. ROFLMAO

Actually, I think this is a legit reason imo.

REALLY? Which reason? I'm guessing the hazards since the other ones are completely ********.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Assuming you're being sarcastic, you must think Jungle Japes should be banned, eh? You can knock your opponents towards the hazards, sure, but you can do that with any hazard. Yes, the hazards are powerful, but if you don't let yourself get knocked to where they can be, you won't be punished. Thus, it is no less fair than Japes, unless you are saying that the fact that there aren't always cars on segments where they can't be predicted makes the stage unfair, which I don't see anyone making..

Let us analyze thing a bit.
As soon as you start the stage the very first time the platform stops, two platforms roughly the size of BF appear roughly 2-3 character lengths apart.
In comparison to Jungle japes you have much less "safe" zone area and the fact that you are forced onto those platforms and disrupt play noticeably because you only have that limited amount of space.

with that limited amount of space it is also easier to restrict your opponent to the lower area because there are only two small safe zeones that guarantee no death.

The other rea where you stop are also inefficient in safe zones.
My particular favorite gives you three platforms in a triangular formation the bottom two platforms being low enough that you can be hit. Which means everyone needs to rush the top platform and fight there.
So its not only disrupting play it also causes centralizing on one strategy.
The hazards kill early and are random in their appearance.

Jungle japes on the other hand has much more safe zones and the klaptrap pops up n only two areas.
The klap trap also appears every ten or so seconds so it is predictable though it can kill early.

The cars on aeroport drive appear at random, kill early, and cover a much greater area than the klaptrap.

Jungle japes doesn't interfere with play to the same degree that port drive does nor is there as much of an issue avoiding the klaptrap in comparison to the cars.

 

[Deoxys]

Let us analyze thing a bit.
As soon as you start the stage the very first time the platform stops, two platforms roughly the size of BF appear roughly 2-3 character lengths apart.
In comparison to Jungle japes you have much less "safe" zone area and the fact that you are forced onto those platforms and disrupt play noticeably because you only have that limited amount of space.

with that limited amount of space it is also easier to restrict your opponent to the lower area because there are only two small safe zeones that guarantee no death.

To start, if you think the first stop is a specific section, you clearly haven't played the level enough to weigh in on its legality (not to be a douche but this is one of the hardest, if not the hardest stage to evaluate the legality of). Assuming you're talking about the one with the slightly raised track in the background, you are also safe on either side of the track, if no one else is there. Furthermore, since the cars always come in the same fashion, the only place where there is little warning on this section is in the very center of the track. The lead car is fairly far ahead so there is reasonable time to avoid the rest, assuming you're smart enough not to be in the center of the track. In other words, the only part of the track which is dangerous without warning is the exact center.

Let me put it this way: if the hazards come, they come at set intervals. On Pictochat, there are times when the hazard hasn't appeared yet, but its hitbox is already out. Pictochat is only legal because the hazards come at set intervals in set places. PTAD is the same as Pictochat, except when you're on the track and the interval occurs sometimes the cars don't come. If the sketches in Pictochat didn't appear every time the interval occured, it would obviously still be legal.

The other rea where you stop are also inefficient in safe zones.
My particular favorite gives you three platforms in a triangular formation the bottom two platforms being low enough that you can be hit. Which means everyone needs to rush the top platform and fight there.
So its not only disrupting play it also causes centralizing on one strategy.
The hazards kill early and are random in their appearance.

Yes, the hazards disrupt play because you have to move to avoid them. That's what hazards do. Yes, the safe place is a small platform, OMG a stage with a really small segment, it must be banned!

Also, calling the hazards random in appearance is highly misleading. On certain sections they will never come, on others you see them ahead of time in the background before they come, and even on the other ones, they come at SET INTERVALS in SPECIFIC PLACES if they come. The only thing random is that they don't always come, but if they do they always come at SPECIFIC INTERVALS.

Jungle japes on the other hand has much more safe zones and the klaptrap pops up n only two areas.
The klap trap also appears every ten or so seconds so it is predictable though it can kill early.

The cars on aeroport drive appear at random, kill early, and cover a much greater area than the klaptrap.

Jungle japes doesn't interfere with play to the same degree that port drive does nor is there as much of an issue avoiding the klaptrap in comparison to the cars.

Again, the cars aren't entirely random. Just because the hazards require players to adapt their strategy more than on Jungle Japes doesn't change the fact that PTAD doesn't have anything other legal stages don't; it just has more of some things.

 

[yummynbeefy]

rainbow cruise should be banned imo there are like 5 walls or something like that i dont remember havent played it in a long time that can be infinited by laser lock, dedede chain grab and such

also i belive sky world shouldnt be banned/counter but completely counter same with green greens

and finally why is green hill zone legal? you can camp fairly easily and spam even easier

other than that this list looks pretty good

 

[The Milk Monster]

rainbow cruise should be banned imo there are like 5 walls or something like that i dont remember havent played it in a long time that can be infinited by laser lock, dedede chain grab and such

also i belive sky world shouldnt be banned/counter but completely counter same with green greens

and finally why is green hill zone legal? people can camp easy on that map

other than that this list looks pretty good

Rainbow Cruise shouldn't be banned.
It's moving, the walls move with the course, ending the infinite.
And in all actuality, there is only a wall on the boat, and right above the boat for the end of the rotation I'm pretty sure.

 

[Deoxys]

rainbow cruise should be banned imo there are like 5 walls or something like that i dont remember havent played it in a long time that can be infinited by laser lock, dedede chain grab and such

also i belive sky world shouldnt be banned/counter but completely counter same with green greens

and finally why is green hill zone legal? you can camp fairly easily and spam even easier

other than that this list looks pretty good

GHZ isn't legal. Are you looking at a different list? I'm proposing:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege*
Lylat Cruise*
Halberd**
Pokémon Stadium 2**
Delfino Plaza***
Pictochat***

*For 7 or more starters
**For 9 or more starters
***For 11 starters

Counter
Brinstar
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pirate Ship
Port Town Aero Drive
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Counter/Banned*
Green Greens

*I don't think GG should be legal, since the stage adds more luck to the game, but the amount of luck it adds is pretty small.

Rainbow Cruise shouldn't be banned.
It's moving, the walls move with the course, ending the infinite.
And in all actuality, there is only a wall on the boat, and right above the boat for the end of the rotation I'm pretty sure.

Actually there's another wall, too, at the top before the walk-off, but it should still be counter due to the fact that the course moves.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Actually there's another wall, too, at the top before the walk-off, but it should still be counter due to the fact that the course moves.

Forgot 'bout that one.
Oh well.

 

[deepseadiva]

I realize I start ignoring this thread whenever I have to make long drawn out responses and read long counterpoints.

But I'm busy, so I'll try to be concise concerning Port Town - I ask for the same, otherwise I can't really respond... :] I apologize.

I see a stage with hazards legality having to justify a sort of warning to power ratio.

Jungle Japes' hazards, while very powerful have a constant and very predictable warning. The water is always there, the klaptraps have an exact schedule. PASS.

Green Green's hazards are high-to-moderately powerful, with very obvious warnings. PASS.

Port Town's hazards are very powerful, have very little warning, but have a predictable path. Now, some could argue that's a reason to leave it legal. It makes the hazards warning obvious - I take in the reverse context and say the power is abusable because it's obvious, specifically for how powerful it is.

If the cars were weaker, it would be in the same vein as Green Greens. I'm making the line that PTAD's cars are too powerful and break the warning/power ratio, and thus the stage should be banned.

There is no fall-through glitch on Halberd.
There is, however, missing Halberd's ledge and just dying from that.

A LOT of stages have fall through glitches. They're kinda difficult to document, but I wouldn't pass Halberd, a moving stage, to have no absolutely no glitches.

Brawl is not the peak of modern game design.

GHZ isn't legal. Are you looking at a different list?

Might be looking at the official SBR list.

And ELEVEN starters? What.

PS2?? Pictochat??

Forgot 'bout that one.
Oh well.

YOU. MILK.

Your sig is annoyingly long. >_>

EDIT: Ironically, this post is long. Sue me.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I realize I start ignoring this thread whenever I have to make long drawn out responses and read long counterpoints.

But I'm busy, so I'll try to be concise concerning Port Town - I ask for the same, otherwise I can't really respond... :] I apologize.

I see a stage with hazards legality having to justify a sort of warning to power ratio.

Jungle Japes' hazards, while very powerful have a constant and very predictable warning. The water is always there, the klaptraps have an exact schedule. PASS.

Green Green's hazards are high-to-moderately powerful, with very obvious warnings. PASS.

Port Town's hazards are very powerful, have very little warning, but have a predictable path. Now, some could argue that's a reason to leave it legal. It makes the hazards warning obvious - I take in the reverse context and say the power is abusable because it's obvious, specifically for how powerful it is.

If the cars were weaker, it would be in the same vein as Green Greens. I'm making the line that PTAD's cars are too powerful and break the warning/power ratio, and thus the stage should be banned.



A LOT of stages have fall through glitches. They're kinda difficult to document, but I wouldn't pass Halberd, a moving stage, to have no absolutely no glitches.

Brawl is not the peak of modern game design.



Might be looking at the official SBR list.

And ELEVEN starters? What.

PS2?? Pictochat??



YOU. MILK.

Your sig is annoyingly long. >_>

EDIT: Ironically, this post is long. Sue me.

I'll resize it

 

[The Milk Monster]

I fixed it Meno haha.

 

[deepseadiva]

I fixed it Meno haha.

Oh, heh. Thank you.

But don't double post either. Mods will chomp your face. D:

 

[Lord Viper]

I'm glad they unbanned Pokemon Stadum 2, it was no real reason to be ban in the first place. But I don't like how some tourneys don't have it though. =/

 

[The Milk Monster]

I'm glad they unbanned Pokemon Stadum 2, it was no real reason to be ban in the first place. But I don't like how some tourneys don't have it though. =/

I hate that stage, but I would have to say some reasons to ban it would be the banana peels on the electric part, and I hate all the transformations

 

[Deoxys]

Port Town's hazards are very powerful, have very little warning, but have a predictable path. Now, some could argue that's a reason to leave it legal. It makes the hazards warning obvious - I take in the reverse context and say the power is abusable because it's obvious, specifically for how powerful it is.

If the cars were weaker, it would be in the same vein as Green Greens. I'm making the line that PTAD's cars are too powerful and break the warning/power ratio, and thus the stage should be banned.

If it's the segment where the cars can come from the right, just don't go down there. I don't see why the stage should be banned just because there's an area that will get you KO'd sometimes, but not others.

Regarding the warning/power ratio*, on segments where being practically restricted to the platforms isn't desirable, you can just not go to the part of the track where the first car appears, and in the time it takes the rest of the pack to get there you will have had enough time to get out of the way. While I think PTAD is the hardest stage to determine legality for, in my mind it there is no doubt that the stage is not allowable. There is no segment where there isn't a practical way to prevent the cars from KOing you without warning, provided you have spent a lot of time learning the way the stage works.

If there's a part of the stage people think demonstrates why it should be banned, please let me know so I can explain how to play there correctly.

And ELEVEN starters? What.

PS2?? Pictochat??

Would you say PS2 is less neutral than Delfino? I think 11 starters is stupid, maybe I should stop the list at 9, but some people seem to want as much variety as possible, and Pictochat doesn't have problems as a starter in most matchups.


*On Pictochat, there are powerful hazards with negative warning (the hitbox comes out before the image), and that stage is allowed, simply because the transformations appear at set intervals. My point is that the stage would still be legal even if a transformation didn't occur every time the interval passed, as long as when they did appear, they would only appear at that interval. This is nearly the case already, since some trasformations barely do anything. If Pictochat can have hazards that get hitboxes out before appearing on-screen, and be legal just because the hazards appear at predictable times, then it is clear to me that PTAD should be legal, since they also appear at predicable times. The main difference between Pictochat's hazards and PTAD's is that sometimes a benign transfomation occurs instead on Pictochat, whereas sometimes the cars don't come on PTAD.

 

[brinboy789]

i think pictochat and warioware should be legalized. why? because i said so.

, my 2 fav banned stages lol

 

[infomon]

i think pictochat and warioware should be legalized. why? because i said so.

, my 2 fav banned stages lol

... pictochat's a counterpick in the SBR's rules, lol

but yeah my local scene bans it too

 

[MysticKenji]

A LOT of stages have fall through glitches. They're kinda difficult to document, but I wouldn't pass Halberd, a moving stage, to have no absolutely no glitches.

Halberd doesn't transform the same way that other stages do, which is why I doubt a fall-through glitch is located there...

Brawl is not the peak of modern game design.

This is truuuuuuuuu though.

And I think Pictochat is banned everywhere except Canada and Texas.

 

[Supersmasher10310]

I think PictoChart is perfectly legal. All of it's obstacles are perfectly aviodable.

 

[Deoxys]

I think PictoChart is perfectly legal. All of it's obstacles are perfectly aviodable.

Well, you have to know where/when they can appear to always avoid them since the hitbox comes out before the image.

 

[magikguy]

its a random stage . even if the obstacles are avoidable your opponent cant push you into those lame traps.

 

[Deoxys]

its a random stage . even if the obstacles are avoidable your opponent cant push you into those lame traps.

What do you mean they can't? I don't really understand your post.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

its a random stage . even if the obstacles are avoidable your opponent cant push you into those lame traps.

Either you suck or your opponents suck then. Most likely you both do.

...A starter, by nature, is the MOST NEUTRAL STAGE POSSIBLE. Pictochat shouldn't even be considered. Neither should DP, unless you're doing teams. Maybe Halberd...very big maybe though. FD, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, etc. are all as flat, normal, and neutral as you get in this game. That's why they are starters. Don't argue against this point, please. If you want those stages to be legal, then they need to be CP.

...Unless, of course, you're doing the stage striking system. Then you can argue whatever you want. I think it's just a hassle that means figuring out more neutral stages personally, but whatever. Just stick with the few that already existed and call it good.

 

[deepseadiva]

If it's the segment where the cars can come from the right, just don't go down there. I don't see why the stage should be banned just because there's an area that will get you KO'd sometimes, but not others.

I'm neglecting this thread again...

Anyways, I think that's a good enough reason for a ban, it fits another criteria I haven't yet mentioned: over-centralization. When a match goes something like:

"HA! I hit you!"
"HA HA! I've hit you in return!"
*exchanging of blows as platform lands*
*warning car flies by*
"..."
"..."
"OH CRAP GET OUT THE WAY"

I don't think hazards should have that level of influence on the match.
I don't want to fight the stage.

Would you say PS2 is less neutral than Delfino? I think 11 starters is stupid, maybe I should stop the list at 9, but some people seem to want as much variety as possible, and Pictochat doesn't have problems as a starter in most matchups.

A starter should give the least amount of advantages and disadvantages for both characters, with minimal hazards. Pictochat has too many, PS2 gives several advantages/disadvantages with its transformations.

I'd suggest leaving the starters at 9.

*On Pictochat, there are powerful hazards with negative warning (the hitbox comes out before the image), and that stage is allowed, simply because the transformations appear at set intervals.

I was under the impression Pictochats hazards were relatively weak and only killed at reasonable percents. It would fit the example of what I'd like PTAD to be.

Halberd doesn't transform the same way that other stages do, which is why I doubt a fall-through glitch is located there...

Weren't you the guy to find the same glitch on Brinstar?

Maybe Halberd...very big maybe though.

No, not Halberd. The ceiling is very very low.

 

[Deoxys]

I was under the impression Pictochats hazards were relatively weak and only killed at reasonable percents. It would fit the example of what I'd like PTAD to be.

The dividing line transformation gimps at any percentage. That's worse than the cars on PTAD. The vertical spikes are powerful, too, IIRC. Also, don't land somewhere where the cars can go. If you're really experienced on the stage the cars shouldn't be a big issue. Your opponent will be limited the same way you are if they're smart, which is fair.

...Unless, of course, you're doing the stage striking system. Then you can argue whatever you want. I think it's just a hassle that means figuring out more neutral stages personally, but whatever. Just stick with the few that already existed and call it good.

I think stage striking should always be used, and the list I gave assumes stage striking. If there's no stage striking the only thing I think is fair is BF, SV, YI, and FD with 1 "strike" each and then random, or just random between BF and SV... IMO stage striking is always better, and with just 5 starters it's a split second unless the players are mentally challenged jellyfish.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

If you only have five starters and you do stage striking it's kind of pointless. IF you are doing the SS System, then you need to have a lot of 'random' stages. That does not make those stages neutral. If you are not doing the SS System, then you need only have 5 or so NEUTRAL stages.

 

[Deoxys]

If you only have five starters and you do stage striking it's kind of pointless. IF you are doing the SS System, then you need to have a lot of 'random' stages. That does not make those stages neutral. If you are not doing the SS System, then you need only have 5 or so NEUTRAL stages.

Without strikes or with one strike before random? I'm not going to want to face Snake on Smashville game 1 anytime soon, but at the same time I'm not going to want to play Snake on Final Destination either.

 

[Flamingo]

Make Lylat A Starter! It Is Fair!

 

[Barge]

Make Lylat A Starter! It Is Fair!

Except for its incredibly lame ledges and elevation changing platform.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmph. In Melee, nobody wanted to face a Marth on FoD, or on Yoshi's Story, often referred to as Marth's Story. But those stages were still neutral. And the one strike before random thing is what we did. You could ban one stage from the set, and it could be any legal stage. But you couldn't strike a neutral stage as well. Essentially, if you could strike a neutral stage as well, then you could have only one neutral stage open for random at the beginning. But the SSS, that's another story.

 

[nick_phizz]

Wow this is stupid... if you're good at all a stage doesn't matter. Only one I see that can't be played seriously on is you-know-where (mario). Other than that you suck for ending matches.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

...Lawl. You suck for ending matches? That's funny, 'cause I thought that's how you win. Why don't you get good first, and then come in here and argue? And no, I really have no idea what stage you are talking about. Really, I don't like that you came in here on your very first post with your condescending attitude asserting a notion so foolish. If you're on the Lucario Boards...you're a weird Lucario. We're all pretty laid back, but that doesn't seem to be the case with you.

 

[Deoxys]

Hmph. In Melee, nobody wanted to face a Marth on FoD, or on Yoshi's Story, often referred to as Marth's Story. But those stages were still neutral. And the one strike before random thing is what we did. You could ban one stage from the set, and it could be any legal stage. But you couldn't strike a neutral stage as well. Essentially, if you could strike a neutral stage as well, then you could have only one neutral stage open for random at the beginning. But the SSS, that's another story.

I think luck should influence the outcome of a match as little as possible. That's why I think stage striking is better than random.

 

[nick_phizz]

...Lawl. You suck for ending matches? That's funny, 'cause I thought that's how you win. Why don't you get good first, and then come in here and argue? And no, I really have no idea what stage you are talking about. Really, I don't like that you came in here on your very first post with your condescending attitude asserting a notion so foolish. If you're on the Lucario Boards...you're a weird Lucario. We're all pretty laid back, but that doesn't seem to be the case with you.

I didn't mean you specifically first of all. Then the "why don't I get good" thing made me smile.

Now... how does ending matches make you win? And where did you get this idea being my first post? I figured you guys have been here a while long enough to read how many a user has made.

As for Lucario, I have no idea what you're talking about. I rarely log on to this site, mainly because people here for the most part are complete idiots when it comes to this game, making no assumptions toward you guys of course.

 

[Deoxys]

I didn't mean you specifically first of all. Then the "why don't I get good" thing made me smile.

Now... how does ending matches make you win? And where did you get this idea being my first post? I figured you guys have been here a while long enough to read how many a user has made.

As for Lucario, I have no idea what you're talking about. I rarely log on to this site, mainly because people here for the most part are complete idiots when it comes to this game, making no assumptions toward you guys of course.

OMG, it's going to be a pain to explain everything that needs to be explained here. I'm going to start with your sig. If you don't edgeguard, you're not playing the game well. If spammers beat you, you're bad at the game. I forget if that was in your sig in your earlier post, but if it was, that's probably what the "why don't you get good" thing was referring to. Matches end when a player wins, which is what he was talking about. If you think you can play on any stage, your opponents aren't good enough. Play against a DDD that infinites you again and again on Shadow Moses Island, or a good circle camper on stages where you can circle camp, and then maybe you'll be qualified to give an opinion on this thread.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Really? People that are on this site are idiots? Huh. *Irony alarm*

I didn't say it was your first post, I meant it was your first post in this thread. And of course the first thing you do is post how all stages are legal and that you can fight on any stage if you're good, which is the worst thing I've ever heard. Why does ending a match make you win? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that anyone who plays this game could tell you the *VERY* obvious answer to that question. And your sig makes me laugh. It really makes no sense in the world of competitive Smash.

Sorry...I'm on a rant. I get kinda mean when I'm on a rant. In all seriousness though, based on what you've said thus far, I don't think that I can take you seriously Nick. I really don't think I can.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I didn't mean you specifically first of all. Then the "why don't I get good" thing made me smile.

Now... how does ending matches make you win? And where did you get this idea being my first post? I figured you guys have been here a while long enough to read how many a user has made.

As for Lucario, I have no idea what you're talking about. I rarely log on to this site, mainly because people here for the most part are complete idiots when it comes to this game, making no assumptions toward you guys of course.

Your sig makes me lol.
How is edge guarding not a strategy?

 

[Deoxys]

Your sig makes me lol.
How is edge guarding not a strategy?

I guess people are bad if they edgeguard because they miss chances to get Golden Hammers and Stars and Ray Guns.

 

[Kage Me]

...What about Yoshi's Island? It's currently considered Neutral. But then there's the Support Ghost, who has saved quite a few of my opponents from edgeguarding, edgehogging and Meteor Smashes. Could that be enough to make it Neutral/Counterpick?