Official Stage Legality Discussion

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Oh, really?

Because one character could be at a disadvantage on a level that has nothing to do with the other character. Take Skyworld for example: It's obviously not neutral, but it serves anyways. If I'm playing a tether character, there's a string chance my tether will destroy the platform instead of going to the edge. Thus, I will ban the stage for that reason. That does not eliminate a character's advtantage, like ROB's ability to camp the loop on the stage. It only stops me from gimping myself.

There's nothing wrong with the current system, and I see no reason to inundate the lists with things people are going to use their strikeouts on anyways.

Well to illustrate my term more vividly, let's think of a character match-up. Let's take Meta Knight vs. Jigglypuff. We can both agree that Falco would have the advantage in this match-up, so Ganondorf would be at a disadvantage in this match-up. So arbitrarily picking the number three, the match-up would look something like this.

Meta Knight 3; Jigglypuff -3

You would never see match-ups like these

X 3; Y 3

X 3; Y1

X -2; Y -1

X -2; Y 1

Or to illustrate in another way, imagine it as a 100m a dash. You are faster than your opponent, that would give you an advantage. Inversely, your opponent would have to be slower than you, putting him at disadvantage.

Now to apply that to stages, if your are playing a Falco vs. Ganondorf match on Final Destination, you being Falco and your opponent being Ganondorf, then you would be at advantage because you can laser camp, and your opponent would be at a disadvantage, because you are at an advantage.

As for Skyworld, you're right, you at a disadvantage, doesn't eliminate an opponent's advantage. I whole heartedly agree with you here, and I am not quite sure why someone would think otherwise.

The reason we are changing the system is reducing the random factor; the difference between a Marth vs. Falco match on Final Destination, and the same match-up on Battlefield, is tremendous. There is no reason to leave this up to chance in an area that is trying to determine who is the better Smasher. Assuming that the competitors are knowledgeable, then you will reach the most neutral stage among the 10, with possibly a slight advantage to the winner of the coin flip.

 

[x After Dawn x]

The list was from the SBR, was it?

Well, I was actually speaking about the list that everybody's been debating on for some time (the one Erich started and that I am currently working on). Is it banned in the SBR list?

WHAT?! Ack, apparently I can't leave for 5 minutes without having a good counter-pick stage shoved alongside 75m and WarioWare, Inc.

Okay. Jungle Japes. Good counter-pick? Yes. Arguable? Sure. Ban-worthy? Not in the least.

Alright, so to make things clear, my stance on the matter is that Jungle Japes is a definite counter-pick. It has ONE issue, ONE hazard that people seem to judge as completly game-breaking. This is not true.

Let me clarify even further.
The hazard individuals seem to think of as too unfair would be the klaptraps. They're these crocodile things (mutated Totodiles as someone put it) that spike upon contact. "Instant kill" comes to mind, and this is correct, but certain conditions need to be met.
- the player needs to be in the water
- or the player needs to be on the ledges and past the invincible frames

Why would a player be in the water? Because they were knocked off the stage.
Why would a player be on the ledges? Same as above.

So why would they be knocked off the stage? Because that is how this game is played.

"But it seems unfair that once you get knocked off your soon to be killed by a klaptrap."
Even then, the klaptraps appear roughly every seven seconds. The majority of the time the player is quite likely to return to the stage without being eaten.

Klaptraps are a very avoidable hazard. Simply do not get hit off the stage, and if not that, do not spend a lot of time there. In other words, PLAY SMASH BROS CORRECTLY.

Another issue that people seem to misjudge as a hazard would be the water. No. The water in Jungle Japes is a fast-flowing current which both hinders characters with poor horizontal recovery, and rewards those with good horizontal recovery or a spike. This would be a good example of WHY we have counter-picking in the first place: in order to have an advantage over the other player's character.

Jungle Japes should not be banned. If you still believe so, answer me this question:

Who exactly is it unfair to?
Characters being spiked? Don't get spiked, really. You usually die, water or not.
Or characters who cannot throw people off the stage? -___-

I'm not going to answer your post fully when you don't read the posts of others. If you had, you'd know that Jungle Japes is, if by majority, generally banned by individuals in this thread. If I recall correctly, it's banned in Ankoku's list as well. With the new water physics, it's just Big Blue all over again, only there's also a OHKO trap. Also, you don't have to be in the water to get OHKO'd, and since it comes once every 7 seconds or so, it's easy to abuse. Oh, and get ready to be flamed by Thio...

 

[Charizard92]

well it beats lava coming at you from all sides and potential stalling risks (Norfair=banned, it so does)

 

[Terranrox]

Don't mind this post it's an error

 

[Terranrox]

Ummm.... I'm arranging a tournament soon in my local area and since I'm sort of new to the stage discussion boards which stages should I make illegal? No wait a better question would be which stages shouldn't be illegal

 

[AlexX]

Ummm.... I'm arranging a tournament soon in my local area and since I'm sort of new to the stage discussion boards which stages should I make illegal? No wait a better question would be which stages shouldn't be illegal

I personally suggest just banning the obvious ones, which means 75m, Temple, New Pork City, Big Blue, Warioware, Summit, and I think Spear Pillar are out.

I know there's a lot of others like Rumble Falls and Bridge of Eldin that are argued to be banned, but we need to see if the theoredical reasonings we have for their bans hold up (for example, do characters like Ike and Bowser really have problems fighting the opponent while keeping up with the stage at the same time? or does that theory not work in practice?).

well it beats lava coming at you from all sides and potential stalling risks (Norfair=banned, it so does)

The lava is easy as heck to dodge during a normal fight and deals with the stalling risks since they have to stop once the lava gets too close to them.

 

[Terranrox]

I personally suggest just banning the obvious ones, which means 75m, Temple, New Pork City, Big Blue, Warioware, Summit, and I think Spear Pillar are out.

I know there's a lot of others like Rumble Falls and Bridge of Eldin that are argued to be banned, but we need to see if the theoredical reasonings we have for their bans hold up (for example, do characters like Ike and Bowser really have problems fighting the opponent while keeping up with the stage at the same time? or does that theory not work in practice?).

The lava is easy as heck to dodge during a normal fight and deals with the stalling risks since they have to stop once the lava gets too close to them.

First of... We All Like Ike

Second, yeah there is so many banned and arguably illegal stages for now which stages arent banned is my question..

 

[Charizard92]

Start with the ones where practically nothing happens at all, those are your neutrals. This is the only category with a solid general consensus. Battlefield, Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Lylat Cruise, and Smashville are the neutrals.
Next, determine any potential problems you see in a stage. The most common are wall infinites, camping promotion, stall promotion, cave of lifes, and easier KO strategies. Most banned stages are either a combination of the five or horribly compounds one of them.
Be careful, while some stages are obviously banned (New Pork, Temple, and 75m), others aren't so obvious (Green hill zone for some reason [fortunately]) or are under a hot (Norfair, no pun intended) or cold (which means it pretty much died due to lack of debate) (PS2, pun also not intended) debate. on that account, you have to tread carefully, I personally was tuned into a crazy person in this for questioning Norfair's legaity due to the fact I don't think it is reasonable to be tournament legal. I am not a crazy person!

Why I think Norfair is banned (to respond to AlexX):
1: the lava, nuff said on that one
2: there is a problem some smart people have raised about fighting the stage itself instead of your opponent
3: there is a stalling problem, and with proper training, even the lava won't help. Meta and Jigglypuff are seen as best candidates on that one.

 

[AlexX]

1: the lava, nuff said on that one

Lava which no person in their right mind will get hit by without the opponent doing something to make you touch it.

2: there is a problem some smart people have raised about fighting the stage itself instead of your opponent

You can SAY that, but does it actually happen? The same could be said about Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise in Melee, but both of them were perfectly legal (and odds are they still will be now).

3: there is a stalling problem, and with proper training, even the lava won't help. Meta and Jigglypuff are seen as best candidates on that one.

The lava forces them to stop because it blocks the ledges they can stall on, forcing them to have to face you (or cuts off the half they are trying to stall on, leaving them vulnerable for counterattack as they head for the other side). Note that this ignores the fact there's no legitimate proof available that the stalling claim can be successfully done in a tournament.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm not going to answer your post fully when you don't read the posts of others.

I apologize if it seems I didn't respond to some posts, I read back about 8 pages and the surrounding posts referring to the stage's legality. I tried to hit on most of the points.

If you had, you'd know that Jungle Japes is, if by majority, generally banned by individuals in this thread. If I recall correctly, it's banned in Ankoku's list as well..

I did notice this, unfortunately. This is why I'm trying to argue my case for the stage.

With the new water physics, it's just Big Blue all over again, only there's also a OHKO trap. Also, you don't have to be in the water to get OHKO'd, and since it comes once every 7 seconds or so, it's easy to abuse.

Big Blue is a moving combination of active platforms, completly different - the only similarity being the moving floor. I also never said you have to solely be in the water to be hit by klaptraps, I stated they can also get you on the ledges.

HOW exactly is it very easy to abuse the klaptraps? By throwing your opponent off the stage? Oh well THATS not fair...

Oh, and get ready to be flamed by Thio...

If he has some valid points, I'd be glad to be cooked.


Do not classify Jungle Japes as banned!

 

[x After Dawn x]

The lava itself is no reason to ban Norfair. There's lava on Brinstar and it's still a counterpick. The lava could indirectly be seen as a reason to ban it because it could be seen as disrupting gameplay, such as when it rises to its highest point (this not only creates a long moment of camping and stalling, as well as favoring projectile spammers like Falco, but it also prevents people from falling off the edge or being spiked to their doom) or forces people to move to the left and right. But even with that reason, it's still a counterpick. It doesn't really affect the outcome of the match, and it's not hard to move into a place you need to. Plus, even if you somehow missed and fell into the lava...big deal. You take a few % of damage and then you're back up. The main reason why it would, or should, be banned is because of the way the stage is set up to favor stalling.

 

[Xona]

I still think that the # of banned stages shouldn't exceed 12. The bans should be prioritized. 20 bans are WAY too many.
I was wrong with my 3 ban list, so here's a new suggestion.
For singles:
neutral: randomly select first, all not banned or custom stages are eligible. Custom stages are NOT neutral.
Counter-pick: neutrals + customs.
banned:
Wario Ware, because it's luck factor is ABSOLUTELY rediculous.
Temple, because it's an absolutely insane task to counter camping. It's still possible, but WAY too insane, this is supposed to be a competitive match, not a boss fight.
New Pork City, see temple.

Each player gets 4 optional bans. (mushroomy kingdom counts as 1 ban, when selected, you play on the initially selected one.) This list has up to 11.
Custom stages must be approved by a TO and can't be clones of any selected bans.

For doubles:
neutrals: same.
Counter-picks: same
Banned:
Wario Ware, same reason

Each team gets 5 optional bans.

Note that bans are selected double-blind.

Temple and New Pork city are less banworthy in doubles in my oppinion. I removed them from the ban list but I increased the ban select # for the people who disagree with the 2 unbans.
I still have N0 clue of what to do about mutual bans that show up.

This is just an idea, if you don't like it, then make a better list. But remember that 20 bans is too many for the official tournament scene.

 

[x After Dawn x]

No, it's not. You have no idea what you're talking about, and you don't know what the criteria is for anything. And once again, you fail to display your lack of knowledge; you can choose which Mushroomy Kingdom stage you want to start on with X / Y and L / R.

 

[Charizard92]

Told ya you people make me look crazy. OK:

1: the lava essentially stops you from what you were doing (bashing your opponent) to trying to avoid damage or death (this is, on it's own, not enough to ban a stage, which is clear with Norfair's spiritual cousin, Brinstar)
2: if you focus on it too much, you wind up fighting the stage instead of your opponent, or using the stage as another item (ex. throwing/smashing opponents into the lava wall to rack up damage, works well with those who have a poor way of racking up damage, and I have found ways to use the wall to KO an opponent with Squirtle's Dthrow at percentages below 100 [around 130 is when Squirtle's Dthrow will become a practical KO move])
3: the stage promotes stalling, and (if you are good at it) can't be stopped by the lava

 

[Terranrox]

Thx so much for your advice but one last question:
This term is new to me so can you explain cave of lifes...

 

[AlexX]

1: the lava essentially stops you from what you were doing (bashing your opponent) to trying to avoid damage or death (this is, on it's own, not enough to ban a stage, which is clear with Norfair's spiritual cousin, Brinstar)
2: if you focus on it too much, you wind up fighting the stage instead of your opponent, or using the stage as another item (ex. throwing/smashing opponents into the lava wall to rack up damage, works well with those who have a poor way of racking up damage, and I have found ways to use the wall to KO an opponent with Squirtle's Dthrow at percentages below 100 [around 130 is when Squirtle's Dthrow will become a practical KO move])

I'll admit those are reasons to counter-pick the stage since you must know how to make good use of them, yet if you're not careful your opponent can use them against you.

3: the stage promotes stalling, and (if you are good at it) can't be stopped by the lava

No matter how good you are, you can't stall if the lava cuts off the bottom of the stage and leaves you with only the top two platforms. Likewise, if a lava wall comes out at the side, your stalling skill doesn't change the fact you have to go to the other side of the stage in order to avoid getting hit by the lava.

And again, this ignores the fact we have no proof that ledgestalling is as easy as you insist it is.

EDIT:

Thx so much for your advice but one last question:
This term is new to me so can you explain cave of lifes...

A "cave of life" is like that tunnel in Hyrule Temple where you can be hit by some strong attacks and tech the ceiling or walls in order to avoid dying (thus, resulting in characters surviving up to absurdly high percentages and really drawing out a fight).

 

[Mic_128]

3: there is a stalling problem, and with proper training, even the lava won't help. Meta and Jigglypuff are seen as best candidates on that one.

Still waiting for a video where that actually happens.

Dawn: It's still being voted on.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Still waiting for a video where that actually happens.

Dawn: It's still being voted on.

um...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_JIls7Ine4

 

[x After Dawn x]

Still waiting for a video where that actually happens.

Somebody posted a video a while back with ROB stalling the match for the beginning of the match. He basically can ledge grab, jump off, charge his spinning top-projectile, regrab a ledge, jump off, use his B laser, grab a ledge, jump off, use his top, etc.

 

[Xona]

No, it's not. You have no idea what you're talking about, and you don't know what the criteria is for anything. And once again, you fail to display your lack of knowledge; you can choose which Mushroomy Kingdom stage you want to start on with X / Y and L / R.

The song decides the stage here, but I guess L and R can be used to determine the song like they could in Melee. But someone could sneak that unless you go into My Music. That knoledge will help with ensuring that the right stage is selected. So, thanks there. But that list that I wrote is just an idea, not the official ruleset. And who decides the criteria for this? An official tournament scene shouldn't ban 50% of the stages in my oppinion, and many ban reasons could be avoided with common sense, ex. don't pick Olimar on summit. You knew what stage was selected, right? If the criteria used is absolute, then how did so many stages become controversal. I've heard lots of people complain about Norfair, and there are several debates over Bridge of Eldin. There is no perfect ruleset.

P.S.
Wavelanding is used upon landing, that crouch-pivot boost is more of a wavedash than a waveland. So if the Glide waveland isn't a waveland, then what is it?

 

[x After Dawn x]

The song decides the stage here, but I guess L and R can be used to determine the song like they could in Melee. But someone could sneak that unless you go into My Music. That knoledge will help with ensuring that the right stage is selected. So, thanks there. But that list that I wrote is just an idea, not the official ruleset. And who decides the criteria for this? An official tournament scene shouldn't ban 50% of the stages in my oppinion, and many ban reasons could be avoided with common sense, ex. don't pick Olimar on summit. You knew what stage was selected, right? If the criteria used is absolute, then how did so many stages become controversal. I've heard lots of people complain about Norfair, and there are several debates over Bridge of Eldin. There is no perfect ruleset.

P.S.
Wavelanding is used upon landing, that crouch-pivot boost is more of a wavedash than a waveland. So if the Glide waveland isn't a waveland, then what is it?

...

L or R doesn't work like it does in Melee. X and Y ensure that you go to World 1-1 while L and R ensure that you go to World 1-2. Please, stop debating in this topic if you don't even know what you're talking about.

And you missed the entire point about what I said about the waveland. If you waveland on a slanted surface, you will do a super-wavedash like glide, but you can do it the frame you land on this surface if you SHAD the ground to abuse the buffering system frames.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

The song decides the stage here, but I guess L and R can be used to determine the song like they could in Melee. But someone could sneak that unless you go into My Music. That knoledge will help with ensuring that the right stage is selected. So, thanks there. But that list that I wrote is just an idea, not the official ruleset. And who decides the criteria for this? An official tournament scene shouldn't ban 50% of the stages in my oppinion, and many ban reasons could be avoided with common sense, ex. don't pick Olimar on summit. You knew what stage was selected, right? If the criteria used is absolute, then how did so many stages become controversal. I've heard lots of people complain about Norfair, and there are several debates over Bridge of Eldin. There is no perfect ruleset.

P.S.
Wavelanding is used upon landing, that crouch-pivot boost is more of a wavedash than a waveland. So if the Glide waveland isn't a waveland, then what is it?

my brain just broke.....

anyways...jiggs and ROB can stall quite nicely on norfair,ban pl0x.(srsly i though we already agreed on this)

 

[Charizard92]

Not to mention how much Meta Knight can use the design to keep him safe and act like Jaws, not to mention covering one of the two platforms with his A combo in Norfair.

 

[Oracle]

The song decides the stage here, but I guess L and R can be used to determine the song like they could in Melee. But someone could sneak that unless you go into My Music. That knoledge will help with ensuring that the right stage is selected. So, thanks there. But that list that I wrote is just an idea, not the official ruleset. And who decides the criteria for this? An official tournament scene shouldn't ban 50% of the stages in my oppinion, and many ban reasons could be avoided with common sense, ex. don't pick Olimar on summit. You knew what stage was selected, right? If the criteria used is absolute, then how did so many stages become controversal. I've heard lots of people complain about Norfair, and there are several debates over Bridge of Eldin. There is no perfect ruleset.

P.S.
Wavelanding is used upon landing, that crouch-pivot boost is more of a wavedash than a waveland. So if the Glide waveland isn't a waveland, then what is it?

Xona, that one was on the dojo.

Please just go away. You obviously have no intelligent input for the thread. You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you even own brawl?

Anyways, I haven't personally experienced the stalling yet on norfair, but I've seen a couple videos. IMO, it should be banned.

 

[SOVAman]

All the stages suck its all about the 64 stages.

 

[Xona]

Not to mention how much Meta Knight can use the design to keep him safe and act like Jaws, not to mention covering one of the two platforms with his A combo in Norfair.

We all have that one neutral or counterpick stage that we just can't stand, yours is Norfair, mine is final destination. While Norfair could support camping and projectile spamming, but fd is WORSE! First of all, LASER CAMPING!!! Not only does it stall the match, but it will often result in 100 free points of damage, easily allowing a 1-hit KO. Second, declaring that stage neutral had made half the other stages get banned. Especially declaring it the most fair and neutral, when Big Blue is more fair then it by a longshot. If fd was banned or even counter-pick, then the rediculous stage banning wouldn't happen. There are a lot of people who agree with me on this. There are also many people who agree with you. That's why I vote to only have 1-3 default bans and player-selected bans instead of having 20 bans. I think that 12 bans is the MAXIMUM, but with fd a neutral, people would ban WAY too many stages.

 

[Charizard92]

Yes, there is a debate what a flat stage will do. Laser Camping, no counter on that one, except you do know who has the Laser (Falco) and most people will try to counteract with either a reflector (Ex. Pit and Fox) or a good crawler (Squirtle for one). Also, FD doesn't have a way to KO you without opponent interference, a good way to allow stalling, a cave of life, or a really, really cheap way of KOing someone without doing any damage at all (walk off camp to bthrow)

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

um...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_JIls7Ine4

wolf didn't do **** most of the match!

 

[Xona]

Xona, that one was on the dojo.

Please just go away. You obviously have no intelligent input for the thread. You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you even own brawl?

Anyways, I haven't personally experienced the stalling yet on norfair, but I've seen a couple videos. IMO, it should be banned.

Yes, I do own the game, and unlike you guys, I've actually played the stages that you want banned. What you're doing is like saying that the ff6 fans are idiots just because they aren't ff7 fans when many ff7 fans haven't played either game. And if they have, then they probably only played ff7. So, tell me, have you even played the stages that you want banned? Like Hanenbow, it looks camper-supportive, but if you actually play it you'd know that projectiles can't pass through the leaves and that characters can. I'm probably the only one who played them and tested them. I've played the different stages, and the only bans I see fit are: fd, Wario Ware, Bridge of Eldin, Temple, New Pork city, and maybe 75m. Before you start banning stages, actually play them UNBIASEDLY. And limit the # of bans, no banning 20 or more stages. I have useful input, you just don't like it because it's different from yours. You shouldn't ban all those stages that you want banned, and at this rate of banning, my banned stages tournament scene will be larger than the official.

 

[Oracle]

We all have that one neutral or counterpick stage that we just can't stand, yours is Norfair, mine is final destination. While Norfair could support camping and projectile spamming, but fd is WORSE! First of all, LASER CAMPING!!! Not only does it stall the match, but it will often result in 100 free points of damage, easily allowing a 1-hit KO. Second, declaring that stage neutral had made half the other stages get banned. Especially declaring it the most fair and neutral, when Big Blue is more fair then it by a longshot. If fd was banned or even counter-pick, then the rediculous stage banning wouldn't happen. There are a lot of people who agree with me on this. There are also many people who agree with you. That's why I vote to only have 1-3 default bans and player-selected bans instead of having 20 bans. I think that 12 bans is the MAXIMUM, but with fd a neutral, people would ban WAY too many stages.

You can't just jump over/shield/spotdodge the lasers? Wow.
Why would we have player selected bans? The purpose of this thread is to find the stages that the most people agree on being unfair banned, being acceptable couterpick, and being fair neutral.
Big blue more fair than FD? I'm gonna sig that.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Yes, I do own the game, and unlike you guys, I've actually played the stages that you want banned. What you're doing is like saying that the ff6 fans are idiots just because they aren't ff7 fans when many ff7 fans haven't played either game. And if they have, then they probably only played ff7. So, tell me, have you even played the stages that you want banned? Like Hanenbow, it looks camper-supportive, but if you actually play it you'd know that projectiles can't pass through the leaves and that characters can. I'm probably the only one who played them and tested them. I've played the different stages, and the only bans I see fit are: fd, Wario Ware, Bridge of Eldin, Temple, New Pork city, and maybe 75m. Before you start banning stages, actually play them UNBIASEDLY. And limit the # of bans, no banning 20 or more stages. I have useful input, you just don't like it because it's different from yours. You shouldn't ban all those stages that you want banned, and at this rate of banning, my banned stages tournament scene will be larger than the official.

thank you proffesor
you have to realize the other reasons most stages are banned!
-projectiles if i recall are absolutlely NOT the reason why hananow was banned!
-hyrule destroys the purpose of the game! even tho it is fun sometimes,
-bridge of eldin can ensure D3 a 100% victory!
-warioware? invinsability+ike=overpwrd win!

 

[Oracle]

Yes, I do own the game, and unlike you guys, I've actually played the stages that you want banned. What you're doing is like saying that the ff6 fans are idiots just because they aren't ff7 fans when many ff7 fans haven't played either game. And if they have, then they probably only played ff7. So, tell me, have you even played the stages that you want banned? Like Hanenbow, it looks camper-supportive, but if you actually play it you'd know that projectiles can't pass through the leaves and that characters can. I'm probably the only one who played them and tested them. I've played the different stages, and the only bans I see fit are: fd, Wario Ware, Bridge of Eldin, Temple, New Pork city, and maybe 75m. Before you start banning stages, actually play them UNBIASEDLY. And limit the # of bans, no banning 20 or more stages. I have useful input, you just don't like it because it's different from yours. You shouldn't ban all those stages that you want banned, and at this rate of banning, my banned stages tournament scene will be larger than the official.

I've played on the stages that we generally accept to be banned, so has EVERYONE ELSE. You have this ridiculous mentality that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Camping doesn't always have to involve projectiles. Snake on Hannenbrow could go to the upper right corner, put mines on two of the platforms, and nade/rocket the opponent. Not many people could get past that. Snake can't do that on FD.
Once again, go away.

 

[Charizard92]

thank you proffesor
you have to realize the other reasons most stages are banned!
-projectiles if i recall are absolutlely NOT the reason why hananow was banned!
-hyrule destroys the purpose of the game! even tho it is fun sometimes,
-bridge of eldin can ensure D3 a 100% victory!
-warioware? invinsability+ike=overpwrd win!

-Only insane people don't know that
-Hyrule promotes camping, stalling, and has a cave of life, three of the five things that can ban a stage
-Let's not forget anybody with a good back throw.
-Invincibility+any powerful character= now you see why?

 

[Xona]

Yes, there is a debate what a flat stage will do. Laser Camping, no counter on that one, except you do know who has the Laser (Falco) and most people will try to counteract with either a reflector (Ex. Pit and Fox) or a good crawler (Squirtle for one). Also, FD doesn't have a way to KO you without opponent interference, a good way to allow stalling, a cave of life, or a really, really cheap way of KOing someone without doing any damage at all (walk off camp to bthrow)

It might be a good counter-pick, but it sure isn't neutral. There isn't a cave of life or a hazard, but fhe stalling part isn't exactly true, as it's flatness provides a cheap way to rack-up damage and stall at the same time. Cheaply racking up damage is the SAME as a cheaply obtained no-damage kill because many up-smashes are guaranteed 1-hit KO's at over 100% damage. Like fox's for example, and Fox is one of the laser-campers too. Same with Falco. Also, if you picked Marth, you don't get any of the options. 100 free damage is the definition of a free kill. Also, if your character trips, (which is determined by luck) then there isn't anything to stop your opponent from either KO'ing you in 1-hit or racking up 20 free damage points. (80 + 20 = 100) The flatness is what provides the cheap kills here. TEMPLE is more neutral than fd, at least it is so without a time-limit. final destination should be either a CP ir a ban. Either way would reduce the # of bans.

 

[Charizard92]

you are really biased aren't you? FD is small, dormant, flat, and has no way to keep you from duking it out, and you can't roll under it. Besides, Fox is a bad example because his lasers don't stun.

 

[Xona]

I've played on the stages that we generally accept to be banned, so has EVERYONE ELSE. You have this ridiculous mentality that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Camping doesn't always have to involve projectiles. Snake on Hannenbrow could go to the upper right corner, put mines on two of the platforms, and nade/rocket the opponent. Not many people could get past that. Snake can't do that on FD.
Once again, go away.

You apparantly share that mentality. Also, they made the new airdodge system for a reason, you can use an airdodge on the proximity mine, OR hit Snake into the proximity mine while he's wasting 500 grand with his javelin. There are 2 sides to the fd debate, you could place the 2 mines on fd then when they go off, you could use his Nair or Dair to then rack up damage. Your opponent's only salvation would be the fact that there isn't any L-canceling. OR you could kill him with an up-smash if he has 100 or more damage, which all that projectile spamming would cause. As for the whole "I'm right you're wrong mentality" We ALL share that mentality, you guys keep saying my comments are useless SIMPLY because you disagree with them. So that shows that you're just as guilty as I am. Remember, don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. I've seen more flames here than in a city fried by Kefka using the light of judgement. There are more flames here than in Ifrit's area.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

We all have that one neutral or counterpick stage that we just can't stand, yours is Norfair, mine is final destination. While Norfair could support camping and projectile spamming, but fd is WORSE! First of all, LASER CAMPING!!! Not only does it stall the match, but it will often result in 100 free points of damage, easily allowing a 1-hit KO. Second, declaring that stage neutral had made half the other stages get banned. Especially declaring it the most fair and neutral, when Big Blue is more fair then it by a longshot. If fd was banned or even counter-pick, then the rediculous stage banning wouldn't happen. There are a lot of people who agree with me on this. There are also many people who agree with you. That's why I vote to only have 1-3 default bans and player-selected bans instead of having 20 bans. I think that 12 bans is the MAXIMUM, but with fd a neutral, people would ban WAY too many stages.

wow,you must suck really bad if you can do somthing as simple as doging lasers

wolf didn't do **** most of the match!

it was really just a small example of stalling,the one with ROB proves my point better

you are really biased aren't you? FD is small, dormant, flat, and has no way to keep you from duking it out, and you can't roll under it. Besides, Fox is a bad example because his lasers don't stun.

although fox's laser has no KB,its still useful for camping and geting a good bit of damage

 

[Charizard92]

His lasers still won't stop people.

 

[Xona]

you are really biased aren't you? FD is small, dormant, flat, and has no way to keep you from duking it out, and you can't roll under it. Besides, Fox is a bad example because his lasers don't stun.

We all are biased for our oppinions, like yours about Norfair. fd's flatness is the problem in my oppinion, I used Fox as the example because his lasers rack up damage faster due to the rediculous rapid fire. Although Falco's laser is another good example. The problem is the flatness, not the size. And as bias goes, look at Fourside. When the reasoning for its ban was disproved, they just made up another reason. We're ALL biased, the only difference is the oppinion itself.

 

[Daimonster]

At first I started to believe one's reasoning for banning norfair (rob invunerability charging lasers and tops); but realized that you can counter this by shielding and dodging. Norfair is a perfectly fine map. Learn to maneuver your character around simple changes in the stage.