[...]And if you think SMI is a big tech fest, then how bout you start using vertical kills. Can't tech off any walls if you're going straight up. And didn't I just make like five different posts explaining how DDD does not own that stage?
Well that's the whole problem, people will just fairly close to the wall. And really, there are very few moves that KO straight up enough on that stage, to unable you to DI towards the walls. DIing is not hard, certainly not in Brawl. Any reasonable player should be able to pull it off for way, way too long, not only stalling the game, but damaging the opponent with jabs, short fast moves, w/e just to rack up his damage for the next life. Meaning you can "stall" an advantage, just like hyrule etc..
Personally I think we should do away with the horrible misnomer "neutral" to refer to available initial stages of the set. Some other word should be used to refer to them. "Standards" or something, I dunno.
Also, in regards to Corner-Trap's method of stage selection for the first stage, I definitely cannot take credit for the idea but I was as far as I know the first TO to use this rule in a 100+ man tournament, which took place in Norcal late last year.
Try to run it past the mods or some BRoomer then. The problem with this thread is that we can't decide on anything, the BRoom has the final call, so.
About stage legality:
[...]
-Randomness. [...]
-Stalling or otherwise making the game unplayable. Not too much needs to be said here. If you can play hit and run for 8 minutes and win reliably, or rather, if that is clearly the dominant tactic on a stage, then it should be banned.
-Because it changes the game too much. [...] That is not to say that it isn't a legitimate "game," because it is, but it is so wildly different from Smash on any other stage that it almost ceases to become "Smash." What defines a game but what skills are tested? The Cave of Life simply tests a skillset that is intrinsically different from the rest of them, and for this reason it is banned. 75m for all we know could be the MOST balanced stage in the game. But it must be banned by this criterion.
I see your point here, the thing is, this has been going on since the start of this thread. However, giving it this many reasons could over-complicate things. I have been trying to ban SMI for quite a while now, just like Skyworld (but SMI more). SMI has both the imbalance (DDD, whether free kill or not, def. imbalance), the stalling and the fact that it changes the game too much. I really think a match played on SMI will have few to do with Smash, if someone is willingly abusing the stage.
[...]And I think it's because the discussion has all been "prove it's broken or we don't ban it," which is a false dichotomy I'm trying to dispel in my post.
Yeah this has been annoying the cr@p out of me, I really can't get any point across and no1 actually replies to points about a stage, they just go on and on about one little thing and then keep saying there might be ways to avoid it.
So a couple of my opinions on the latest stage list posted. Naturally they are all complaints since nobody is ever nice and says good job on what people got right:
-Shadow Moses is fine. It is in all likelihood one of the less balanced stages, but Onett in Melee was WAY worse, and didn't get banned for a long time. We should be open-minded about it. The fact that it has walls probably means that it's not balanced, but that doesn't mean it's sufficiently imbalanced to warrant a ban. I won't support a stage ban on Shadow Moses until I see people getting auto-wins on it.
I'm assuming this the stage list I posted? It was the last so. Anyway, about SMI, I've listed the reasons many times, but let's do it once more, with feeling.
1) There is not just 1 wall, there is four of them, and they are on both sides really close to each other, they also run very high, meaning they are almost always in the way of your trajectory, even when unaltered with DI. This means you can just tech around. So let's say, 2 good players are on SMI, neither of them is DDD, one gets the first kill, after this, he just sticks to the wall and waits, the other player has to approach. He then just stands there waiting for a shieldgrab or defending with short jabs. He ignores possible lasers because they don't move him. All this is done to make sure the opponent gets as much possible damage when the next life starts, it is also to waste as many time as possible. Staying close to the walls ensures both the fact that you can't die as long as your below, DI should always be enough to get you to hit the wall. And that your opponent can't reach it, so yeah, more advantages. Basically, first kill = wins the match /= Smash.
2) King DDD. When near a wall, you can make your chain grab an infinite. This works great with the technique I described under 1). It doesn't actually need it though, you can do this from any point on this stage, right from the first life. What you do is work your way towards a wall with the CG and then turn it into an infinite. The CG can be assured by doing grab attacks to prevent the move from getting stale (note: you only need to do 1-2 grabs on this stage to reach a wall). Characters that stand no change this way, meaning it is actually a free kill are:
Lucas
Pit
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Ganondorf
Ness
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Ike
Captain Falcon
King Dedede
Snake
Marth
Peach
Wario
Sonic
Yoshi
R.O.B
Lucario
Wolf
Link
Charizard
Mario
Samus
Bowser
DK
Luigi
Luigi is the only one that can't be CG normally so he has to be grabbed near a wall. However, above 50% there is an infinite which does not require a wall for him so.
3) Stalling by running, using scare tactics. This basically involves choosing DDD or Fox and hitting with a Waddle Doo/Dee or Laser. After this, stay near the walls. People will fear you and it becomes a game of running from wall to wall (or just simply dropping down and jumping up), which can break any approach. /= Smash.
-Corneria. I'd really, really like to see it banned, as I tried to get to happen in Melee, but I'm willing to put up with it for a while since Brawl could introduce something new to it. The camp potential is just horrible, and it's gravely imbalanced towards upkills.
I agree on this one, I have played with it banned during Melee as well, great disadvantage towards the campers. However, a lot of campers back then were Fox users and they had the advantage on the up kill as well. This seems a lot less in Brawl, so it might be better in Brawl then in Melee. It at least deserves the chance, maybe just because is was such a great stage in 64.
-Green Greens. Same story as Corneria but worse, in fact I'm ready to ban it now. The randomness introduced by the falling blocks and the bomb blocks is just too much in combination with everything else. Camping and balance are atrocious.
Avoiding the bomb blocks isn't too hard really and they don't do that much. The apples can be annoying but still, it's indeed good for campers, however, destroying the blocks that aren't bomb blocks mostly takes away a lot of their tactics.
-Onett. Same again as Corneria. The cars are a lot less powerful it seems.
Yeah the cars are less annoying. I'm not sure what to think about this one, have to play is some more I guess.
-Yoshi's Island Melee (Pipes). What a horrible stage. I personally think it's too different from other stages in how terribly it stunts approaches and that it should be banned. I know people will disagree with that though so I can't say I'm 100% about it.
I thought so as well. However, BRoom seems to have it on counterpick right now, because Fox can't Usmash KO you at 40% anymore.
-Jungle Japes. Dear God why did they only bring the stupid Melee stages back? Towards the end of Melee, people were realizing that there were a lot of balance problems with this stage. I don't expect it will take very long in Brawl. Also the Klaptrap is horrible. It's a whole stock off at any %. I guess it's appropriate to leave it on counterpick, but I don't think anyone will miss it.
Sakurai was trying to be an @sshole. The klaptrap never manages to be a real problem to me though, just don't hang on edges without invincibility frames. Also, dropping down in the water keeps you safe from the guy, strange as it may sound.
-Distant Planet. I just really hate this stage, and I don't know a single person that enjoys it. That's all I wanted to say.
Well there are people that enjoy it so.
-Pictochat. See Randomness and changes the game too much.
Nearly none of the changes are really big, mostly it's just an extra platform or something. I can't think of 1 drawing that would really be a problem.
-Port Town. I really, really, really dislike the cars. Is avoiding the cars and learning their patterns skill? Sure. But is that really want we want to judge tournaments on? And it's not like the cars in Mute City, which had ample warning and were incorporated into the skill of the stage well. These cars just come and kill you at 60%. If they killed you at a much higher % maybe, but the cars are just too big of a part of the stage.
Agreed, I had this bolded for discussion, I want to move it to banned asap, really.
-Luigi's Mansion. This stage is really fun. But Cave of Life applies, I think it can be banned.
I think cave of life applies here way less then SMI. Also a lot of stuff blocks projectiles, which makes camping a bit harder. The stage won't rebuild until the last part is destroyed btw, which could also be a +.
-Pirate Ship. Another fun stage (to me), I think it's alright in counterpick, but I don't anticipate it staying there long.
The rest looks fine. If a tourney wanted two more "neutrals" I would recommend Delfino Plaza and Halberd.
I would really advice against DP & Hal. as neutral, the stages that are neutral right now give plenty of variation to the gameplay.
HyugaRicdeau
I'd like to do away with the word neutral also, since people constantly misinterpret the meaning. I propose renaming them starter stages, or something along those lines.
Fine with me, not up to any of us though.
[...]I disagree with you on banning stages that change the game too much. Stages like Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats were allowed in Melee and arguably changed the game play from the standard norm. I honestly enjoyed the fact that those stages were allowed since it did test a different set of skills.
Well I've been trying to tell you throughout this entire thread, this isn't a matter to what you (or random person #101) like to agree on or not, stages have and will be banned for this. If you can't deal with that fact, please don't interfere with the discussion by posting your list with all stages on counterpick again.
[...]
Since rainbow cruise was allowed this would mean that super mario 1 woul d be allowed though only the first part since i imagine that people would dislike the underground.
meh just U tilt them to death.
LOL.
[...]
Regarding changing the game too much, well like I said, I think balance/randomness/stalling are just special cases of changing the game. Example, in the case of stalling it changes the game in a way such that stalling and running away for 8 minutes is the undisputed dominant tactic on the stage. [...] Personally I like RC and PF as I think maneuvering around the stage is a worthwhile skill, the stage moves in a deterministic non random pattern, and you aren't actively 'fighting the stage' much at all.[...]
Very true this, stages have been banned because they tend to mess up the entire metagame developed by smashers. Maybe this is the best way to put it, stages that destroy the metagame (or like I said on my very first post in this thread, stages that **** everything they meet).
On RC & PF, they did just change the levels, RC was mostly just simple platforms. Neither of the stages had any real problems as long as you knew the course. There was nothing random about it. 2 people giving the same input on this stage twice in a row would result in the same match. If you did the same on, let's say Flat Zone 2, you could have 2 different winners.
I think what we need to do is instead of having ONE list, have two lists that represent each extreme that we are willing to put up with. After all by these standards, a tournament like OC3 would have had a ruleset that would be strongly disapproved by a list such as this (though I don't necessarily mean that we should augment our ruleset to retroactively legitimize large tourney rulesets). I think it's unreasonable to have a nationwide single standard list. The fact is that the Midwest traditionally plays on a wider variety of stages, where the East Coast prefers a smaller set of stages, for example, and all regions have their own tendencies. We should have a maximum and a minimum and say "pick anywhere in between these two." I mean what are we trying to accomplish with this list? To give something to TO's that need guidance. Incidentally, the reason I came and posted here is that a local tourney series where I live decided to adopt this stage set and I find it disagreeable.
Please, don't start about making 2 lists, that would only make it more confusing for everyone. Right now, this thread is meant to think about what the BRoom list will look like. Maybe some of the BRoomers will look here to see what our list looks like and take it into account, maybe not, but guiding TO's or deciding or having more then 1 list is really their job and not ours.
[...]Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1...I actually kind of like. I'd be OK with this on counterpick. The fact that the person that starts to the left is already at a disadvantage is troubling though.
This won't work. You get 1-2 at random and pretty often, just leave it.
Edit: there is a way to get 1-1 each time on the Dojo.
The only thing to decide is what is considered too much of a change from the standard gameplay. Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, and Yoshi's Island(Brawl version) are the indisputable best stages for starters. Stages that obviously need to be banned at the outset is New Pork City, Hyrule Temple, and WarioWare Inc. Only thing left to decide is whether the remaining stages should either be counterpick or banned. Obviously if we find any other stages that are too random, or allow for infinite stalling then they should be banned.
EDIT:
I'd also like to take this time to reinforce the point that a stages hazards should be acceptable as long as they're fairly predictable.
Well I think we are a tad further than having just decided on those 3 as bans and the neutrals. And yes, stage hazards should be allowed, see Halberd.
