Official Stage Legality Discussion

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

Can someone give me the best list with all the stages, not to be picky but I'm holding a tournament and I need a good list. Something everyone can agree on. So far I have:

Neutral:

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island(brawl)

Counterpick:

Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Flat Zone 2
Pirate ship
Green Greens
Halberd
Hanenbow
Jugle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Onett
Pokemon Stadium
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island(Melee)
Green Hill zone

Banned:

75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone
Mario Bros
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Norfair
Pictochat
Port Town Aero Drive
Rumble falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Spear pillar
WarioWare inc.
Mario Circuit

I think my list is good but I need confirmation and some help.

 

[AlexX]

If nothing else, I think that Norfair, Rumble Falls, and Mario Circut should be counter-pick. I also don't see the big deal with Pictochat.

The lava at Norfair is easy to avoid or shield, and it is designed to promote airgames along with giving those who can use tether recoveries a lot more versitility.

Rumble Falls moves at a decent pace where it's easy to keep up with the stage while still fighting. It speeds up, but gives you a warning. Spikes are always in the same spot, so they aren't too hard to avoid.

Mario Circut's cars are not only incapable of killing until very high percentages, but there's a map and red arrow warning to tell you when they're coming.

Pictochat only has 3 or 4 of the possible 27/28 combinations that can kill you, and even they require you to be at very high percentages.

I also think the pokemon stadiums shoudn't be counterpick... Maybe 2, I still need to test that one out, but 1 isn't that bad. If wall infinites didn't make it a counterpick in melee, it shouldn't be in brawl. Likewise, what's the big deal with the windmill? Not only is it temporary, but you might not even see the transformation occur during a fight.

I also think Luigi's Mansion should be neutral. Even the weakest characters can reduce the mansion to rubble within a couple hits to each pillar.

EDIT: Wait, I just noticed Halbierd is on your counter-pick list... I think that one should be neutral, too. Each hazard has ~10 seconds of warning before going off, so if you're hit by them, you deserve it.

 

[Eten]

The idea behind neutral is that the stages are truly neutral. They are all simple and extremely consistent, with very little variation between them. This way, when the neutral set is used for a randomly selected course, there is as little as element of luck as possible. Of the clear 5 neutral stages, they all have the same thing to them-

Main, non-passable bottom platform. Some variation of platforms above the stage. A ledge on each side. That's it. There are no walls, no walkoffs, no hazards, no lack of ledges, no water, no stage shifts, and so on. All the variation in the neutral stages is extremely minute- the underside of the course, the extra platforms, the stage size, and distance to the blast lines. Anything that works on one stage works on all of the stages, they are pretty universal.

Putting in Halberd(with its stage shift, hazard, and passable bottom platform) or Luigi's mansion breaks that consistency. And that isn't good.

 

[AlexX]

But if the stuff in the stage isn't significant enough to affect gameplay graneted you're paying attention, should it really be penalized as bad as one that does legitimately affect gameplay?

Luigi's Mansion can be turned into Final Destination with a couple attacks on each pillar. Why should it be be treated as though it were as hazardous as say... Jungle Japes?

 

[Empy]

Something went wrong here, I tried to make a new post but ended up deleting this one.

 

[Eten]

No the idea about a neutral stage it that it's neutral ground... so you know, fair for everyone.It should be about how hard you have to fight for your advantage, which is what I meant earlier when I said some stages **** characters.

And like I said, it's not going to be possible for you or anyone to be judging how hard you have to fight for your advantage. Trying to ban certain stages because it "*****" certain characters is going to get nowhere.

Now Eten, Pokemon Stadium 1 has been neutral for 7 years, why do you think it is no longer neutral? Please give at least 1 good reason, with a solid fact that has to do with the difference between Brawl and Melee. Also, you really should stop trying to make everything counterpick, the list of stages for tournaments should be about making it fair.

How are you deciding on what "makes it fair" or not?! This is complete crap.

Melee was notorious for it's rampant banning of things in the competitive scene in other fighting game communities. I'm not trying to make everything counterpick, I'm trying to get people around here from banning random **** because they think they know what's up and that it's somehow "too much" of an advantage. There isn't some sort of specific "way to play that's fair" and everything outside of it isn't. Pokemon Stadium 1 does not stick to the pattern that the other 5 neutral courses presents, those 5 noted for their simplicity, and I don't have to go far to prove that claim. So we're either going to have to decide a much broader definition of neutral, and defeat the purpose of having a neutral set, or stick to some real logic besides just "it was like this in melee".

Is pokemon stadium 1 neutral? Is Delfino Plaza Neutral? Is Luigi's mansion, Halberd, and Castle Siege neutral? People complain that they don't want to lose a competitive match because they get owned by a random item, people also won't want to pray they don't get a certain disadvantageous "neutral" stage that makes them play another way right from the get go.

Now what do you think is wrong about this list and why? I think it's much, much, much better than Corner-Trap has made.

The list has many things wrong and it is wrong because it's based on opinion more than anything else. At least corner-trap's list provides some hard and fast rules. Throwing Distant Planet in banned, but Mario Circuit is a fine counterpick? It just reeks of a lack of using any set classification for things.

Stuff like putting Yoshi's Island (melee) as a counterpick without reason is something extremely unrealistic. The back room would never make a choice like that. It is one of the most hated stages of Melee and it hasn't changed a bit. Also, green hill zone should be dead obvious, summit is out of the question and so on and so on.

Yeah, right, you'd know what the back room would do. At least corner-trap's list provides some hard and fast rules. You managed to list 3 stages right there that are "obvious", but they aren't. What's wrong with Green Hill Zone, hm? This sort of LACK of reasoning being used to pick and choose stages is going to make a pretty nasty impact on competitive smash.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I hate the idea of deciding neutral stages on the basis that they're fair. If we go by that logic then there are literally no neutral stages. Thats why I decided to use a different method for deciding my neutral stage list. I also want to do away with the first stage being randomly chosen amongst the neutral stages, instead we should use a strike out system that would go like this:

1) Players take turns striking out one neutral stage, remaining stage will be the first stage
2) Loser picks next stage
3) Winner picks character
4) Loser picks character

Neutral:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island/Brawl
Lylate Cruise

Counter Pick:

Delfino Plaza (movement, walk off ledges, walls, water, passable bottom platform)
Bridge of Eldin (hazards, walk off ledges)
Rumble Falls (movement, hazards)
Skyworld (destructible environment)
Castle Seige (transformations, walk off ledges)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (transformations, various effects)
Halberd (movement, hazards, passable bottom platform)
Shadow Moses (walls, walk off ledges)
PictoChat (transformations, hazards)
Summit (hazards, water, various effects)
Norfair (hazards)
Mario Circuit (hazards)
Frigate Orpheon (transformations)
Yoshi's Island/Melee (walk off ledges)
Corneria (hazards, walls)
Onett (hazards, walls)
Brinstar (hazards, destructible environment)
Rainbow Cruise (movement)
Distant Planet (hazards, various effects)
Mushroomy Kingdom (movement, walls, walk off ledges)
Port Town Aero Dive (movement, hazards, passable bottom platform)
Green Hill Zone (hazards, walk off ledges)
Luigi's Mansion (destructible environment)
Jungle Japes (hazards, water)
Green Greens (hazards, various effects)
Pokemon Stadium (transformations, walls)
Hanenbow (various effects)
Pirate Ship (water, movement, hazards, walls)

Banned:

WarioWare Inc. (adverse effects, walk off ledges)
New Pork City (infinite stalling, hazards)
Hyrule Temple (infinite stalling, walls)
Mario Bros. (adverse effects, infinite stalling, walk off ledges)
Spear Pillar (adverse effects, infinite stalling)
75m (infinite stalling, walk off ledges)
Flat Zone 2 (adverse effects, walk off ledges)
Big Blue (adverse effects)

Criteria:
These are the specifics I used to deem whether a stage is neutral, counter pick, or ban worthy. If a stage had none of these traits, then it's neutral. If a stage had any of these traits aside from infinite stalling, and adverse effects then it's counter pick. If a stage had infinite stalling, or adverse effects then it's banned. If other traits are deemed broken in the future, then the stages that have them will be banned.

Movement- stage moves among locations
Hazards- stage can cause harm to the players
Walls- stage has walls
Walk off ledges- stage has walk off ledges
Water- stage has water
Transformations- stage transforms
Destructible environment- stage can be destroyed
Various effects- other effects including low traction, gravity, etc.
Passable bottom platform- Bottom platform can be passed through
Adverse effects- stage is deemed too detrimental or random
Infinite stalling- players can runaway indefinitely in a loop

 

[Florida]

Now what do you think is wrong about this list and why? I think it's much, much, much better than Corner-Trap has made.

I'm curious as to why you listed PictoChat as a counterpick legal stage. PictoChat has many hazards which occur in a random order. How does any character get an advantage over another from this? The missiles and the springs and the spikes...it all could get quite annoying. There are just a lot of things going on in this stage. Even the basic drawings can get screwy, such as the set of boxes (you can get stuck in the drawing, leaving you available for, say, Marth's fsmash). Someone can sit on the rolling cart drawing and stall the match. It's all just screwy.

So anyway, out of 41 stages there are 6 neutral, 15 counterpick. In Melee there were 29 stages, also 6 neutral and just 8 counterpick. So with this list you have far more choice and plenty of room for the metagame to develop. I think this list would work for tournaments.

I'd like to mention that it really doesn't even matter what Melee's statistics were. Just because Melee had six neutral stages doesn't mean that Brawl has to be close to around that number. Just because Melee had 8 counterpicks doesn't mean that there has to be less than have that number in Brawl. Don't place stages just so that it will match what Melee looks like; Brawl is a new game, let's start new.

My biggest 2 concerns are Skyworld and Norfair. Skyworld however seems to be fine for most people so I'll just leave it at that. I'm not sure about Norfair as sometimes there is only 1 platform left and sometimes you will need to use the escape pot, both would be really bad for any character really, depending on your position on the level at that time, this could be a problem for every character in the game.

Norfair is a great stage for characters who use tether (Olimar for instance). I counter my opponents with Olimar by choosing this stage. His up-b will abuse the invincibility frames, and due to the amount of edges, gimping his recovery is much more challenging. The lava is wicked compared to Brinstar's, but there are ways around it (such as the capsule, simply jumping above the screen--Pit and R.O.B. can do this--etcetera). It's a great stage for counterpick legality. There's really nothing with this stage that deserves a ban.

The list has many things wrong and it is wrong because it's based on opinion more than anything else. At least corner-trap's list provides some hard and fast rules.

Yeah, right, you'd know what the back room would do. At least corner-trap's list provides some hard and fast rules.

Lol. Anyway, there are still some things wrong with Corner-Trap's reasonings. A stage being neutral doesn't necessarily mean that there is nothing going on. Final Destination has crappy ledges which can gimp characters, should that make it counterpick legal? Dream Land 64 had movement of wind involved, yet it was still neutral for both SSB64 and SSBM. Also, a lot of the stages listed in the counterpicks should be banned, specifically being: Summit, Mushroomy Kingdom, Port Town, Green Hill Zone, and some others which are more debatable.

1) Players take turns striking out one neutral stage, remaining stage will be the first stage
2) Loser picks next stage
3) Winner picks character
4) Loser picks character

The current system that we have now works fine. That's a little iffy.

 

[Empy]

Okay I'm gonna be clear on this one last time.

Corner-trap, you keep quoting your own list and your trying to change tournament rules just to make it work. Let me get one thing straight, we won't decide anything in this thread, hell, we got nothing to say about it at all, as the backroom makes the list.

Now to Eten, first of all, stop crying about other people posts and instead try to react on them. All you've been saying for 5 pages is that everything anyone else says is based on opinion. Now your saying that the Smash comunity is known for "it's rampant banning of things" well guess what, this shouldn't effect our stage choices at all, in fact, it has nothing to do with them. You keep dragging any outside stuff into this that sort of fits with your opinion.

You and corner-trap are the only 2 with the opinion that the system used so far to decide on stages is wrong and that we need a complete new one, where we have to list some oversimplified specifics of a stage and when there is more then 1, it's counterpick and when there is the "ifinite stalling" it's banned. Now really, what's the point in selecting stages when there are 5 neutral, 8 banned and everything else is just counterpick?

So maybe it's time to think about a list that would actually work with a tournament and not that sounds right by giving all stages points or something. Smash Bros. metagame just doesn't work like that at all. Your giving the same value for a stage that has walls like Shadow Moses as a stage like Luigi's Mansion. Your reasoning is "both walls, so both same group", well guess what, 2 different stages, so they could be in 2 different groups.

Also, it's not hard to tell what gives too much of an advantage and what not, the fact that you have been avoiding it, is something completely else. Now your talking about Corner-Trap having some hard and fast rules, well, I've said it before and I'll say it again:

We need to look at each stage, individualy, not just discard all different types of walls as walls and each hazard as just hazard, then simply look at the list of names and go, here it says hazard there, but not infinite stalling, so counterpick.

Also, right now I'm sick and tired of just going around in circles, let's discuss a stage for once shall we?

Edit: I started typing before Egruntz posted so:

I'm curious as to why you listed PictoChat as a counterpick legal stage. PictoChat has many hazards which occur in a random order. How does any character get an advantage over another from this? The missiles and the springs and the spikes...it all could get quite annoying. There are just a lot of things going on in this stage. Even the basic drawings can get screwy, such as the set of boxes (you can get stuck in the drawing, leaving you available for, say, Marth's fsmash). Someone can sit on the rolling cart drawing and stall the match. It's all just screwy.

I listed Pictochat there because everything is draw rather slowly and nothing really forces you to go anywhere. The few hazards there don't do too much damage. Also, if a certain picture is in fact annoying, I think it will be gone so quick it will hardly make a difference. Honestly, I haven't played on PictoChat enough to be sure though, but I think it will be fine.

I'd like to mention that it really doesn't even matter what Melee's statistics were. Just because Melee had six neutral stages doesn't mean that Brawl has to be close to around that number. Just because Melee had 8 counterpicks doesn't mean that there has to be less than have that number in Brawl. Don't place stages just so that it will match what Melee looks like; Brawl is a new game, let's start new.

About the numbers, your 100% right, this should never influence how we place stages, however, I did find it intresting to note the numbers, as they can give an idea of how a list would effect tourneys. You really will have to learn twice as many stages and character advantages. On top there are many more characters, so it would be nice if we have something that at least stays realistic.

As to the Brawl is a new game, let's start new, I know what you mean by this, but to not confuse others, this is a bad idea, we should use Melee as a guideline, it's by far the best way to know anything about this. In fact, if we don't look at Melee, none of the posts in this thread would have any value, as we can hardly speak from experience, or compare to soul calibur or something.

Norfair is a great stage for characters who use tether (Olimar for instance). I counter my opponents with Olimar by choosing this stage. His up-b will abuse the invincibility frames, and due to the amount of edges, gimping his recovery is much more challenging. The lava is wicked compared to Brinstar's, but there are ways around it (such as the capsule, simply jumping above the screen--Pit and R.O.B. can do this--etcetera). It's a great stage for counterpick legality. There's really nothing with this stage that deserves a ban.

Allrighty, I'll test it some more, like I said, this was one I was doubting, but my first opinion was counterpick so yeah.

 

[Corner-Trap]

snip.

Well I at least have a set criteria for why I'm banning stages or putting them on counter pick, unlike the majority of lists posted in this thread. Also, the only thing different between my stage/character selection method, and the current one is how you pick the first stage. Instead of it being randomly chosen amongst the neutral stages, we instead use a strike out system for the neutral stages, which is much more orderly.

snip.

I'll keep quoting my list till more people give it some attention.

 

[Eten]

Also, it's not hard to tell what gives too much of an advantage and what not, the fact that you have been avoiding it, is something completely else.

Yes, it IS hard to tell what gives too much of an advantage and what doesn't, and ALL of your reasoning hinges on this issue. I already described two examples, one with Dedede, and one with DK. You can't even estimate the level of different advantages give to characters, and it is NOT anyone's job to try to rebalance characters with stage bannings either. Second, it isn't just some generalized reason that makes something a counterpick, that's not what the things in parenthesis are for, it's a simple summary of the elements of the courses that take them away from being neutral. At least with the stages listed banned in the lists, we broke it down to elements like infinite stalling due to a circular path or unchecked randomness that brings in the luck factor, and those things can be summarized in parenthesis.

Can you actually name any legit reasons to describe your distant planet ban?

I guarantee you, that you won't be able to.

And people joke about my credibility.

Look, reread what corner-trap said:

I hate the idea of deciding neutral stages on the basis that they're fair. If we go by that logic then there are literally no neutral stages

I've continually avoided using the classification of neutral stages as "fair" for this very reason. Instead I've emphasized the point of being consistent and simple.

Now to Eten, first of all, stop crying about other people posts and instead try to react on them. All you've been saying for 5 pages is that everything anyone else says is based on opinion. Now your saying that the Smash comunity is known for "it's rampant banning of things" well guess what, this shouldn't effect our stage choices at all, in fact, it has nothing to do with them. You keep dragging any outside stuff into this that sort of fits with your opinion.

You know, check on somewhere between I think pages one through 3 and see that somebody else had already said something very much like I've been saying. And you want me to debate you on your list that you pull out of your *** on page 38, with hanenbow banned and little to no organization of reasons for each's location?

So let me summarize, we can repeat talking about how someone doesn't like specific stages until our faces turn blue, but it doesn't mean anything. There is clearly a logical origin for stage classification and thus a logical classification for each stage. If we take the alternative with everybody just pissing their opinion into the wind(or even if the back room exclusively gets to do it) to figure out what stages are what, it'll be a disgrace to competitive brawl.

We should figure out some universal rules based on what would limit brawl being played in tournaments, then analysis the elements of each stage to see where they would place based on those rules. Trying to debate each and every stage when people are ready to list arbitray things like "Hanenbow is too uneven, it should be banned" or even worse, just present their lists w/ little to no pattern to the classification and lacking any descriptions to explain any universal reasoning, is the last thing we should bother with.

 

[Mic_129]

• Uneven placement (tree in the middle, single leaf to the bottom left, tree to the top left) Being uneven isn't a reason for banning. You don't see people wanting to ban skyworld because the stage is uneven (it's because of the un-jumpthroughable platforms)
• Leaves can shift positioning (this can screw up attacks and recoveries) To me, this adds some good stratagy into the game, and can be a good counterstage against the people you know who are experts at sweet spotting.
• Camping is supported by odd placement of surface (single leaf, tree to the top left) Debatable, however in all the matches I've played with people, I haven't seen this stage used to amp in any way, and is much easier to stop camping/running away than stages like Hyrule as there's no block in the middle you can't pass through.
• Tether recoveries have a disadvantage aside from them not really having a disadvantage (they can grab the pointy leaves like anyone else) giving people a disadvantage is not a bannable offence. That's what counterpicks are for.
• Projectiles are blocked by stems/other leaves

Good against people who do nothing but stand and spam. Not that this really is an issue due to, as mentioned earlier, the uneven layout.

I don't think we should be discussing Pokemon Stadium 1, it's gotten more neutral since Melee, if anything.

Concidering the changes to it have all been bad (edges, windmill) I wouldn't say that they made the stage more neutral.

Speaking of which, will any of the BR members actually look here? And if so, will they bother reading large parts of this thread or will they look if we came to a final list on what we think? Maybe Mic_128 could help out on this one.

Honestly, I don't know, sorry.

Dedede has a chain grab that can move people to walls, and an infinite against a wall. This makes Shadow Moses Island a pretty awesome course for Dedede. So they decide to ban it, because it gives him too much of an advantage.

No, it'd be banned because Dedede can get a free kill.

Stuff like putting Yoshi's Island (melee) as a counterpick without reason is something extremely unrealistic. The back room would never make a choice like that. It is one of the most hated stages of Melee and it hasn't changed a bit. Also, green hill zone should be dead obvious, summit is out of the question and so on and so on.

Heh, well the last time Yoshi's Island Melee was brought up in the SBRoom, it was being looked at being counterpick since Fox can't shine people off the right side, or up-smash kill at 40% anymore. And Green Hill zone doesn't seem banworthy (as yet anyway)

I'm curious as to why you listed PictoChat as a counterpick legal stage. PictoChat has many hazards which occur in a random order. How does any character get an advantage over another from this? The missiles and the springs and the spikes...it all could get quite annoying. There are just a lot of things going on in this stage. Even the basic drawings can get screwy, such as the set of boxes (you can get stuck in the drawing, leaving you available for, say, Marth's fsmash). Someone can sit on the rolling cart drawing and stall the match. It's all just screwy.

Pictochat doesn't really give any character an advantage, but more of gives a person the advantage if they're used to it. the few damaging hazards aren't bad, the few blocking 'traps' aren't very disruptive if at all (incidentally, if you're trapped and Marth hits you with his Fsmash, you're not going anywhere anyway. Plus you should have shielded/dodged/figred out when marth gets close like that, it's what Marth does)

And aside from the fact that it's tricky to land on the rolling cart, you aren't invincible. Honestly, if you can't hit someone just sitting on that....

 

[Empy]

Honestly, I don't know, sorry.

Allrighty, that's too bad though, I was really wandering if any of our reasons were taken into consideration. That said, they probably know way better what to do then us anyway.

Heh, well the last time Yoshi's Island Melee was brought up in the SBRoom, it was being looked at being counterpick since Fox can't shine people off the right side, or up-smash kill at 40% anymore. And Green Hill zone doesn't seem banworthy (as yet anyway)

Ah I see, well the Fox thing on Yoshi's Island does make sense, although, I'm not sure how it works out with some of the new characters, I haven't really played it yet, as it's always been banned so.

And Green Hill zone really does suprise me, it could be good for me, because I play Ike and if for some reason people have to jump over a little spin-thing (whatever it is) I basically get free Usmash or Uair changes and when all your moves can KO that helps. Now I can see why they won't too quickly ban a stage because of Ike, as he's mid-tier at best and played by n00bs that claimed Roy was better than Marth, but still. A well, we will have to wait and see I guess.

@Eten, I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, the 5 pages (might not be exact) and stuff was referring to the fact we weren't talking about a certain stage anymore, just argueing over some new system that should be universal for all stages. Now what I ment with my bolded part, was simply that such thing is not what will happen and therefor is not what we should be doing either.

Like you can tell from some of the examples from the BRoom, they are indeed going over each stage one at a time, they don't look at it like: "Yoshi's Island/Melee (walk off ledges)". Instead, they say it could be unbanned because Fox his Usmash doesn't kill at 40% and you can't shine people off. Now when I said they needed a good reason to unban it, I must admitt that I forgot about the 40% thing, I just remembered how the ramps were abused all the time. Now I haven't played it yet so maybe it should be counterpick.

Anyway, I think we are better of looking for an agreement here, how about I try to make a start? Let's start with Corner-Trap his last list, I think your last one was rather similar and I didn't see you complain on this one, so yeah.

n e u t r a l s t a g e s :

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island/Brawl
Lylate Cruise

c o u n t e r p i c k l e g a l :

Delfino Plaza (movement, walk off ledges, walls, water, passable bottom platform)
Bridge of Eldin (hazards, walk off ledges)
Rumble Falls (movement, hazards)
Skyworld (destructible environment)
Castle Seige (transformations, walk off ledges)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (transformations, various effects)
Halberd (movement, hazards, passable bottom platform)
Shadow Moses (walls, walk off ledges)
PictoChat (transformations, hazards)
Summit (hazards, water, various effects)
Norfair (hazards)
Mario Circuit (hazards)
Frigate Orpheon (transformations)
Yoshi's Island/Melee (walk off ledges)
Corneria (hazards, walls)
Onett (hazards, walls)
Brinstar (hazards, destructible environment)
Rainbow Cruise (movement)
Distant Planet (hazards, various effects)
Mushroomy Kingdom (movement, walls, walk off ledges)
Port Town Aero Dive (movement, hazards, passable bottom platform)
Green Hill Zone (hazards, walk off ledges)
Luigi's Mansion (destructible environment)
Jungle Japes (hazards, water)
Green Greens (hazards, various effects)
Pokemon Stadium (transformations, walls)
Hanenbow (various effects)
Pirate Ship (water, movement, hazards, walls)

b a n n e d s t a g e s :

WarioWare Inc. (adverse effects, walk off ledges)
New Pork City (infinite stalling, hazards)
Hyrule Temple (infinite stalling, walls)
Mario Bros. (adverse effects, infinite stalling, walk off ledges)
Spear Pillar (adverse effects, infinite stalling)
75m (infinite stalling, walk off ledges)
Flat Zone 2 (adverse effects, walk off ledges)
Big Blue (adverse effects)

First of all, Shadow Moses should be banned, like Mic said above me, free kill for DDD, so. Second, the Summit can have the entire bottom of the stage go underwater and the fish come without warning, and are an instant KO, so should really be banned.
Mushroomy Kingdom; well 1-2 is one huge life, so should be banned for the same reason as Temple. 1-1 is bad as well, it get's people trapped against pipes like they are walls and a grab can hold someone until the stage comes close, then backthrow to KO.
Rumble Falls; the spikes there are a 1 hit KO and you can easily throw someone into them, the speed might be determined and predictable, but that also means fast characters with good jumps, can go high and use dairs. They don't even have to hit to KO, just keeping the opponent away is enough. Also, there is a small part rather quickly, that really only has room for 1 person and the one that can get there the easiest will have a free KO as well.

Now let's leave it at this for now and we can continue when we've discussed these stages in a reasonable way.

 

[Serris]

Rumble Falls; the spikes there are a 1 hit KO and you can easily throw someone into them, the speed might be determined and predictable...

I agree with the spike point. The scrolling, on the other hand, is another story. There's nothing determined about it. I climbed the entire stage yesterday at the default speed, and right when it reset, it told me to "Speed Up!"

 

[Eten]

For Summit, the fish can be avoided 100% if you avoid the bottom area while the stage is in water. That makes it much like the klap trap and bulborb hazards. The fish may be random, but you don't ever have to play the game of chance to begin with.

On Shadow Moses Island. It's only a "free kill" in certain situations... which starts to make it not so "free" after all. Consider this-
Dedede can already infinite chain grab a few characters on any stage because he can do it while standing in place.
Dedede can not chain grab every time to a wall or off the stage. Certain characters are too light, other characters have escapes. This means that for some of the cast, if he's going to get his "free kill" he must already be in position after a grab for dthrows against a wall.
Dedede isn't the only guy around with an infinite against a wall, there are actually a small to moderate number of infinites against a wall from various characters out there. DK, for example, could cargo his opponent and cargo chain throw against the wall. Or G&W can just do a jab infinite against a wall, etc.

That sounds like to me that SMI is far from a "free kill" for Dedede, but more along the lines of a very advantageous course for certain characters vs. other Certain characters. Now it will be impossible for me to know the extent and depth of the game at which people will find to counter Dedede on SMI, especially if they are one of the ones that can be chaingrabbed up to a wall or off the side for an eventual KO everytime(no escape from it once they get in it, basically). But I can at least say that such characters could play in a way that spaces themselves when they go to hit Dedede to avoid being shield-grabbed, and to avoid leaving themselves open to being punished by a shield dash grab. Finally, being on the top platform and destroying the two wall sides actually prevents being chain grabbed, if someone manages to use that.

In essence what I'm saying is is that banning SMI would not accomplish anything but removing a weakness for a few certain characters(the ones that can be chain grabbed) in a specific matchup, while potentially also cutting what could be an advantageous matchup for other non-Dedede characters. Ultimately, banning SMI would make characters that can be chain grabbed respectively stronger and those who couldn't be chain grabbed respectively weaker, and finally weaken others who could have used SMI in other matchups to an advantage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Second, the Summit can have the entire bottom of the stage go underwater and the fish come without warning, and are an instant KO, so should really be banned.

When the bottom is completely submerged, the fish still never comes out in the center, because even though you're swimming, there's a floor (although you can't reach it. The only fear of the fish is from the water current pushing you out to the side, but that is negligible.

 

[ShadowLink84]

When the bottom is completely submerged, the fish still never comes out in the center, because even though you're swimming, there's a floor (although you can't reach it. The only fear of the fish is from the water current pushing you out to the side, but that is negligible.

So what?
the fish comes up randomly.
Automatically KOes you.
If you stand at the edge it can still eat you.

It shouldn't be happening period.
At least rumble falls OHKO spikes are in the same place and can be teched.

 

[Eten]

If you stand at the edge it can still eat you.

It shouldn't be happening period.

You're right. No expert would make that mistake. Only noobs would stand on the edge. You've got a good point.

 

[GaryCXJk]

You're right. No expert would make that mistake. Only noobs would stand on the edge. You've got a good point.

Edge guard anyone?

 

[Florida]

First of all, Shadow Moses should be banned, like Mic said above me, free kill for DDD, so. Second, the Summit can have the entire bottom of the stage go underwater and the fish come without warning, and are an instant KO, so should really be banned.
Mushroomy Kingdom; well 1-2 is one huge life, so should be banned for the same reason as Temple. 1-1 is bad as well, it get's people trapped against pipes like they are walls and a grab can hold someone until the stage comes close, then backthrow to KO.
Rumble Falls; the spikes there are a 1 hit KO and you can easily throw someone into them, the speed might be determined and predictable, but that also means fast characters with good jumps, can go high and use dairs. They don't even have to hit to KO, just keeping the opponent away is enough. Also, there is a small part rather quickly, that really only has room for 1 person and the one that can get there the easiest will have a free KO as well..

Shadow Moses Island has a few things going on. It's not just that King Dedede gets an advantage on this stage, but, as Mic_129 has said, a free kill. Not only that, but the place is a tech-parade. I've gotten opponents up to 200%+ before I was able to kill them. People also tend to just sit below and wait, or run around on top and stall.

Mushroomy Kingdom being up for counterpick? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't anyway to decide which map you'll be playing on when this stage is chosen. If this is going up for counterpick, how does that even work? It's a side-scrolling stage, slow yes, though still scrolling. The stage has a ******** ceiling, and World 1-2 has a lot of teching and camping issues. There's too much going on.

Rumble Falls has the one-touch-K.O. spikes, boxes which will trap you, walk offs, and is a upward-scrolling stage. It's a lot better than Icicle Mountain, but still nothing good. Characters that have horrible jumps are at an unfair advantage at this stage. If you're wanting to use this as an argument for counterpick legality, remember that Smash is a fighting game, it's not a contest to see who can jump better. There's no skill involved.

n e u t r a l s t a g e s :

Battlefield
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)

The windmill in Pokémon Stadium (Melee) is actually very, very annoying. It stops anything going in its way (flying opponents, projectiles, and other things such as Wario's bike). Just yesterday I couldn't get my opponent off the sage, when he was at 150% damage or so, because the windmill kept him trapped in the "V"s. Also, the fire transformation has problems with walls involved as well. Any thoughts?

Allrighty, that's too bad though, I was really wandering if any of our reasons were taken into consideration. That said, they probably know way better what to do then us anyway.

You never know if the back room will be checking this thread out every once in a while. It's true that the general community's opinion doesn't matter much due to the unintelligence and inexperience. Though they also might be wanting to see some of the more popular opinions. Who knows? Either way, discussing these sort of things keeps me interested; I enjoy talking about stage legality, tiers, glitches, tournament rules, and all of the like.

 

[Corner-Trap]

First of all, Shadow Moses should be banned, like Mic said above me, free kill for DDD, so. Second, the Summit can have the entire bottom of the stage go underwater and the fish come without warning, and are an instant KO, so should really be banned.
Mushroomy Kingdom; well 1-2 is one huge life, so should be banned for the same reason as Temple. 1-1 is bad as well, it get's people trapped against pipes like they are walls and a grab can hold someone until the stage comes close, then backthrow to KO.
Rumble Falls; the spikes there are a 1 hit KO and you can easily throw someone into them, the speed might be determined and predictable, but that also means fast characters with good jumps, can go high and use dairs. They don't even have to hit to KO, just keeping the opponent away is enough. Also, there is a small part rather quickly, that really only has room for 1 person and the one that can get there the easiest will have a free KO as well.

Now let's leave it at this for now and we can continue when we've discussed these stages in a reasonable way.

1) I'm tired of everyone trying to ban shadow moses for having a wall, but then be okay with every other wall stage, am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this? DDD does not get a free win on wall stages, 13 characters cannot be CG, 22 characters can escape the CG before it reaches the wall, only 5 characters are completely screwed on this stage. Also other characters do even better on wall stages than DDD like Olimar. He no longer has to worry about being gimped, DDD cannot CG him, and Olimar is a bad match-up for DDD. Until it's proven that wall stages are truly broken through tournament play, then they should be allowed.

2) Apparently you don't play on Summit a lot. It's incredibly obvious when the stage is going to submerge under water. Also the fish won't come out unless you're completely in the water, if you're in the water but over the platform then you're still safe. Also the fish doesn't come out until a few seconds after you go into the water giving yourself time to escape, and bubbles come up signifying that the fish is gonna come up. Also you can air dodge the fish.

3) Player living for a long time on Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 is not a problem since we have a freakin time limit so matches finish at a reasonable pace. The pipes on 1-1 aren't bad either. If you get stuck in between them, then thats your own fault, if your enemy traps you in them then thats their reward for good positioning.

4) The spikes on Rumble Falls are not 1-hit KO's. Also they are in the same exact place every time, so if you memorize the stage then you can avoid them. This stage is a lot more about positioning and memorizing the stage layout, so you can space your opponent to where you want them to be. And fast characters do not have an advantage on this stage whatsoever.

 

[Serris]

I'd just like to say that, in response to one of Eten's earlier posts, yes, the credibility loss thing was a joke. I forgot that sarcasm doesn't show over the internet. (Unless you use tags.)

Judging from what everyone's presented so far, the final list might wind up like this:

n e u t r a l s t a g e s:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

b o r d e r l i n e n e u t r a l s t a g e s (Debated counterpicks.):

Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Luigi's Mansion

c o u n t e r p i c k s t a g e s:

Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Mario Circuit
Onett
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2

b o r d e r l i n e c o u n t e r p i c k s t a g e s (Debated banned.):

Green Hill Zone
Mushroomy Kingdom
Norfair
PictoChat
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Summit
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

b a n n e d s t a g e s:

75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Temple
Spear Pillar
WarioWare, Inc.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Shadow Moses Island has a few things going on. It's not just that King Dedede gets an advantage on this stage, but, as Mic_129 has said, a free kill. Not only that, but the place is a tech-parade. I've gotten opponents up to 200%+ before I was able to kill them. People also tend to just sit below and wait, or run around on top and stall.

Mushroomy Kingdom being up for counterpick? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't anyway to decide which map you'll be playing on when this stage is chosen. If this is going up for counterpick, how does that even work? It's a side-scrolling stage, slow yes, though still scrolling. The stage has a ******** ceiling, and World 1-2 has a lot of teching and camping issues. There's too much going on.

Rumble Falls has the one-touch-K.O. spikes, boxes which will trap you, walk offs, and is a upward-scrolling stage. It's a lot better than Icicle Mountain, but still nothing good. Characters that have horrible jumps are at an unfair advantage at this stage. If you're wanting to use this as an argument for counterpick legality, remember that Smash is a fighting game, it's not a contest to see who can jump better. There's no skill involved.

n e u t r a l s t a g e s :

Battlefield
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)

The windmill in Pokémon Stadium (Melee) is actually very, very annoying. It stops anything going in its way (flying opponents, projectiles, and other things such as Wario's bike). Just yesterday I couldn't get my opponent off the sage, when he was at 150% damage or so, because the windmill kept him trapped in the "V"s. Also, the fire transformation has problems with walls involved as well. Any thoughts?



You never know if the back room will be checking this thread out every once in a while. It's true that the general community's opinion doesn't matter much due to the unintelligence and inexperience. Though they also might be wanting to see some of the more popular opinions. Who knows? Either way, discussing these sort of things keeps me interested; I enjoy talking about stage legality, tiers, glitches, tournament rules, and all of the like.

Frigate Orpheon as a neutral pick? You must be stupid. The god**** thing flips over and has a ******** edge. Counterpick.

 

[Snail]

Frigate Orpheon's flip gives a 5 second warning and Final Destination has ******** edges as well, didn't stop if from being Neutral.

 

[pika-power]

Final Destination also has mentally challenged edges. Care to try to cart that one off?

So it flips. Alarm bells ring. Getting owned by the stage is annoying, but it does not happen if you play right.

 

[Empy]

When the bottom is completely submerged, the fish still never comes out in the center, because even though you're swimming, there's a floor (although you can't reach it. The only fear of the fish is from the water current pushing you out to the side, but that is negligible.

This is not true. Even though it seems logic the fish wouldn't come out, they just do, they dive right through the bottom platform.

For Summit, the fish can be avoided 100% if you avoid the bottom area while the stage is in water. That makes it much like the klap trap and bulborb hazards. The fish may be random, but you don't ever have to play the game of chance to begin with.

There is a huge difference here. The klap trap only hits people on edges and after using up your invincibility. The bulborb appears and waits there a while, so you will have to jump over there.

The fish however, come on to the main platform, where most of the fight will take place. They also come towards you, unlike the bulborb and you don't have any invincibility against it, like with the klaptrap. Also, the fish can come the very second that the stage goes underwater, I've had this before you know.

On Shadow Moses Island. It's only a "free kill" in certain situations... which starts to make it not so "free" after all. Consider this-
Dedede can already infinite chain grab a few characters on any stage because he can do it while standing in place.
Dedede can not chain grab every time to a wall or off the stage. Certain characters are too light, other characters have escapes. This means that for some of the cast, if he's going to get his "free kill" he must already be in position after a grab for dthrows against a wall.
Dedede isn't the only guy around with an infinite against a wall, there are actually a small to moderate number of infinites against a wall from various characters out there. DK, for example, could cargo his opponent and cargo chain throw against the wall. Or G&W can just do a jab infinite against a wall, etc.

You can't tech out of the chaingrab against the wall, not even if you normally would be able to escape his chaingrab, so that does make it a free kill against loads of characters. On top, all these other infinites make it even worse of a stage.

That sounds like to me that SMI is far from a "free kill" for Dedede, but more along the lines of a very advantageous course for certain characters vs. other Certain characters. Now it will be impossible for me to know the extent and depth of the game at which people will find to counter Dedede on SMI, especially if they are one of the ones that can be chaingrabbed up to a wall or off the side for an eventual KO everytime(no escape from it once they get in it, basically). But I can at least say that such characters could play in a way that spaces themselves when they go to hit Dedede to avoid being shield-grabbed, and to avoid leaving themselves open to being punished by a shield dash grab. Finally, being on the top platform and destroying the two wall sides actually prevents being chain grabbed, if someone manages to use that.

OMG, you really have no idea what you are saying do you? Avoid being grabbed at all is your solution? Really, if it was that easy, couldn't you just say, if you play so much bettter then your opponent that he can never hit you, you will be safe on any stage?

In essence what I'm saying is is that banning SMI would not accomplish anything but removing a weakness for a few certain characters(the ones that can be chain grabbed) in a specific matchup, while potentially also cutting what could be an advantageous matchup for other non-Dedede characters. Ultimately, banning SMI would make characters that can be chain grabbed respectively stronger and those who couldn't be chain grabbed respectively weaker, and finally weaken others who could have used SMI in other matchups to an advantage.

NO, NO, NO banning SMI would never, ever make a character not being chaingrabbed by DDD weaker. I think you are completely missing the point here, Shadow Moses has way more problems then just DDD, you also have the fact that you don't kill until near 200%, the camping place in the lower part of the stage that is way overpowered and the fact that people can go stalling by picking a character with an infinite and switching their camp spot between the walls on the upper and lower part, making an aproach more of a suicide.

The fact that DDD does get his free kill, regardless of the fact that you realise this or not, just adds up to the reasons.

You're right. No expert would make that mistake. Only noobs would stand on the edge. You've got a good point.

Edge guard anyone?

Indeed, Eten, you can say no expert would make that "mistake", but someone can keep you in place you know, you can't just always teleport to any part of the stage at will. And having a working edgeguard is basic for anyone even intrested in competitive play. One B-air shouldn't mean 1 KO, that would just mess up the game.

Shadow Moses Island has a few things going on. It's not just that King Dedede gets an advantage on this stage, but, as Mic_129 has said, a free kill. Not only that, but the place is a tech-parade. I've gotten opponents up to 200%+ before I was able to kill them. People also tend to just sit below and wait, or run around on top and stall.

Exactly my point.

Mushroomy Kingdom being up for counterpick? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't anyway to decide which map you'll be playing on when this stage is chosen. If this is going up for counterpick, how does that even work? It's a side-scrolling stage, slow yes, though still scrolling. The stage has a ******** ceiling, and World 1-2 has a lot of teching and camping issues. There's too much going on.

Yeah the pure fact that 1-2 comes in randomly makes it useless as a counterpick. 1-2 should definitly banned, I don't think anyone would argue that, so then the stage just can't work. Sad, but true.

Rumble Falls has the one-touch-K.O. spikes, boxes which will trap you, walk offs, and is a upward-scrolling stage. It's a lot better than Icicle Mountain, but still nothing good. Characters that have horrible jumps are at an unfair advantage at this stage. If you're wanting to use this as an argument for counterpick legality, remember that Smash is a fighting game, it's not a contest to see who can jump better. There's no skill involved.

Well much like with Mushroomy Kingdom, I haven't seen anyone go against my ideas for why it should be banned. Which makes sense to me, as a lot of these things are just too obvious to ignore.

The windmill in Pokémon Stadium (Melee) is actually very, very annoying. It stops anything going in its way (flying opponents, projectiles, and other things such as Wario's bike). Just yesterday I couldn't get my opponent off the sage, when he was at 150% damage or so, because the windmill kept him trapped in the "V"s. Also, the fire transformation has problems with walls involved as well. Any thoughts?

Well so far I've been able to play the stage much like it was done in Melee, it could be that certain changes affect the metagame so heavy, it should become a counterpick. Right now I'm going to not form an opinion on it yet, I just don't think I've tested it enough.

You never know if the back room will be checking this thread out every once in a while. It's true that the general community's opinion doesn't matter much due to the unintelligence and inexperience. Though they also might be wanting to see some of the more popular opinions. Who knows? Either way, discussing these sort of things keeps me interested; I enjoy talking about stage legality, tiers, glitches, tournament rules, and all of the like.

True, it's not that I wanted to stop discussing the stages, more that I was wandering if it would be useful to make some sort of "final list", closest to what the people here can agree on.

1) I'm tired of everyone trying to ban shadow moses for having a wall, but then be okay with every other wall stage, am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this? DDD does not get a free win on wall stages, 13 characters cannot be CG, 22 characters can escape the CG before it reaches the wall, only 5 characters are completely screwed on this stage. Also other characters do even better on wall stages than DDD like Olimar. He no longer has to worry about being gimped, DDD cannot CG him, and Olimar is a bad match-up for DDD. Until it's proven that wall stages are truly broken through tournament play, then they should be allowed.

I'm tired of you being so ignorant. You simply want to say, any stage with a wall is the same as any other stage with a wall. Well guess what, Shadow Moses is the only stage with walls this big, on both sides there is nothing you can compare it with, we really have to look at the stage itself, like it or not.

2) Apparently you don't play on Summit a lot. It's incredibly obvious when the stage is going to submerge under water. Also the fish won't come out unless you're completely in the water, if you're in the water but over the platform then you're still safe. Also the fish doesn't come out until a few seconds after you go into the water giving yourself time to escape, and bubbles come up signifying that the fish is gonna come up. Also you can air dodge the fish.

Apparently, you have just been lucky, because the fish can come out right away and it can come out when being over the platform, so.

3) Player living for a long time on Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 is not a problem since we have a freakin time limit so matches finish at a reasonable pace. The pipes on 1-1 aren't bad either. If you get stuck in between them, then thats your own fault, if your enemy traps you in them then thats their reward for good positioning.

Wait, so why are you banning stages for "infinite stalling by running away" then? It's the only reason so far I've seen that you used to ban a stage with. And you got it wrong as well, Hyrule wasn't banned for people running away, it was banned because of the underground where you can just tech everywhere, which is exactly why 1-2 should be banned. The time limit is there to keep tournaments at the right pace etc.. so you can complete them on the day you want to. It's not there to decide who wins or loses.

Anyway, this makes it completely clear that you haven't played in any tournament with remarks like getting stuck between the pipes is you own fault, we have time limits etc.. your even trying to change the entire way that you choice stages as well, without any idea what your talking about.

4) The spikes on Rumble Falls are not 1-hit KO's. Also they are in the same exact place every time, so if you memorize the stage then you can avoid them. This stage is a lot more about positioning and memorizing the stage layout, so you can space your opponent to where you want them to be. And fast characters do not have an advantage on this stage whatsoever.

Wait, the spikes do KO and yes, they are on the same place, but that also means your oponent can just throw/hit you into them. You seem completely ignorant of the level of play, so let me just explain this further.

The problem with a lot of these stages is not that we can't remember the stage/hazard, but the fact that they are so easy to remember, it's also easy to throw/hit people into them. So you are completely wrong about the fact that "we" are too stupid to remember stages etc... sometimes we know them so well, we develop a tactic you just don't want to face.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I'd just like to say that, in response to one of Eten's earlier posts, yes, the credibility loss thing was a joke. I forgot that sarcasm doesn't show over the internet. (Unless you use tags.)

Judging from what everyone's presented so far, the final list might wind up like this:

n e u t r a l s t a g e s:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

b o r d e r l i n e n e u t r a l s t a g e s (Debated counterpicks.):

Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Luigi's Mansion

c o u n t e r p i c k s t a g e s:

Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Mario Circuit
Onett
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2

b o r d e r l i n e c o u n t e r p i c k s t a g e s (Debated banned.):

Green Hill Zone
Mushroomy Kingdom
Norfair
PictoChat
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Summit
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

b a n n e d s t a g e s:

75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Temple
Spear Pillar
WarioWare, Inc.

I like this list better than anything posted so far.

I'm tired of you being so ignorant. You simply want to say, any stage with a wall is the same as any other stage with a wall. Well guess what, Shadow Moses is the only stage with walls this big, on both sides there is nothing you can compare it with, we really have to look at the stage itself, like it or not.

Walls have still yet to be proven broken. Characters with wall infinites do not get a free win, considering how hard it is to set up things like laser lock, ice block lock, and jab locks. And DDD doesn't dominate the stage since he can't CG 12 characters and the majority of characters who can be CG can escape before they reach the wall.

Apparently, you have just been lucky, because the fish can come out right away and it can come out when being over the platform, so.

Well I guess I am lucky since the fish never comes out right away when I hit the water, I'll do more testing on that.

Wait, so why are you banning stages for "infinite stalling by running away" then? It's the only reason so far I've seen that you used to ban a stage with. And you got it wrong as well, Hyrule wasn't banned for people running away, it was banned because of the underground where you can just tech everywhere, which is exactly why 1-2 should be banned. The time limit is there to keep tournaments at the right pace etc.. so you can complete them on the day you want to. It's not there to decide who wins or loses.

Anyway, this makes it completely clear that you haven't played in any tournament with remarks like getting stuck between the pipes is you own fault, we have time limits etc.. your even trying to change the entire way that you choice stages as well, without any idea what your talking about.

Infinite stalling was one of the reasons Hyrule was banned, but I'll agree that you got me there on that time limit issue. And I'm going to completely disregard that second paragraph since you no next to nothing about me.

Wait, the spikes do KO and yes, they are on the same place, but that also means your oponent can just throw/hit you into them. You seem completely ignorant of the level of play, so let me just explain this further.

The problem with a lot of these stages is not that we can't remember the stage/hazard, but the fact that they are so easy to remember, it's also easy to throw/hit people into them. So you are completely wrong about the fact that "we" are too stupid to remember stages etc... sometimes we know them so well, we develop a tactic you just don't want to face.

If I remember correctly people have always said that hazards are acceptable as long as they're easily forceable, this way players can use them to their advantage. I believe the spikes on rumble falls, goes into this category.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I honestly think Hanebow shouldn't be used. It can be too advantegous for the defensive player. The offensive player has to take into account not only the position the defensive player is in, but the leaves as well. The leaves alter angles if hit and a suddden altercation can ruin an aproach. A defensive player can hit the leaf above or below him or her to disrupt an approaching player and punish. The leaves can also destroy projectiles going above or below it.

The leaf tilts can give the defensive player a moderately unfair position advantage. Certain characters can use those leaves and can grab a lead and never relinquish it since the offensive player will always take more damage upon approach than he will be able to dish out in return.

I 5 stocked a level 9 CPU Falcon by camping on the leaf that I started on with Snake. All I had to was spam tilts, jabs, and grabs. I want a human player to test this out on.

 

[The Cash Man 2]

I honestly think Hanebow shouldn't be used. It can be too advantegous for the defensive player. The offensive player has to take into account not only the position the defensive player is in, but the leaves as well. The leaves alter angles if hit and a suddden altercation can ruin an aproach. A defensive player can hit the leaf above or below him or her to disrupt an approaching player and punish. The leaves can also destroy projectiles going above or below it.

The leaf tilts can give the defensive player a moderately unfair position advantage. Certain characters can use those leaves and can grab a lead and never relinquish it since the offensive player will always take more damage upon approach than he will be able to dish out in return.

I 5 stocked a level 9 CPU Falcon by camping on the leaf that I started on with Snake. All I had to was spam tilts, jabs, and grabs. I want a human player to test this out on.

Ban a stage just because it's "advantageuos" for a type of player? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Ban a stage just because it's "advantageuos" for a type of player? That doesn't make sense.

It does actually. Peach's Castle, Venom, and Fourside were banned in Melee since they favored camping.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110804

 

[refugee]

How about certain characters are not allowed to be played on stages that give them too much advantage? For example, DDD cant be played with on SMI.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Why is everyone wanting to ban stages simply because they give certain characters slight advantages? Isn't that the whole reason behind a counter pick? To pick a stage that gives your character an advantage over your opponent. No character so far has proven to be broken on any stage.

 

[AlexX]

I 5 stocked a level 9 CPU Falcon by camping on the leaf that I started on with Snake. All I had to was spam tilts, jabs, and grabs. I want a human player to test this out on.

I'm pretty sure being able to 5-stock a CPU doesn't matter much when taking human players into account. Human players aren't going to fall for that like the CPU would.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I'm pretty sure being able to 5-stock a CPU doesn't matter much when taking human players into account. Human players aren't going to fall for that like the CPU would.

I see your point. A few hours ago, I tested it against a human player. Camping on a leaf was very effective and helped me keep the lead regardless of whether he knocked me off the leaf or not. I would show you video prooff, but I don't have the means to transfer it onto the computer. Certain characters are better at camping than others. Hanebow can give characters like Olimar, Snake, and Marth unfair advantages when played campy and defensively.

How about certain characters are not allowed to be played on stages that give them too much advantage? For example, DDD cant be played with on SMI.

That won't work. Read this excerpt from AlphaZealot's SSBM: Stage Banishment and Reasoning thread.

"....it is important to note what would happen if the stages weren't banned. Frequently, take the case of Hyrule Temple, if we had left this stage unbanned then essentially the only viable character match up on the stage would be Fox versus Fox (there may be a few exceptions, but not many). The tournament level play would devolve into the same character match ups over and over, and more importantly (because of advanced slob picks) who had won their previous match would be forced to choose Fox if Hyrule Temple was chosen as the next stage by the loser, as any other character would mean a free win for the opponent. You may ask then: why not ban Fox on these stages? Well, then another strategy comes up that could be very similar. If Fox is banned, then quickly Captain Falcon or Falco become the only playable characters on the stage. Such logic also works with stage banning, though not as much, but as you'll see many of the stages were banned for the same or similar reasons, yet for some (odd) reason other stages with similar properties remain unbanned (view: Corneria). "

Why is everyone wanting to ban stages simply because they give certain characters slight advantages? Isn't that the whole reason behind a counter pick? To pick a stage that gives your character an advantage over your opponent. No character so far has proven to be broken on any stage.

You don't understand how broken certain characters can be on Hanebow when played defensively or campy. I will prove how broken some characters can be on this board at the next competition that has this board legal.

 

[Serris]

Camping on Hanenbow can be dealt with by using aerial approaches, making Samus (and other characters with good aerial games) the prime choice.

Hanenbow would make a good counterpick because you can pretty much destroy campers if you have good aerial approach.

 

[MysticKenji]

Until someone wins a tourney by camping on Hanenbow, I don't think it should be banned.

 

[Eten]

There is a huge difference here. The klap trap only hits people on edges and after using up your invincibility. The bulborb appears and waits there a while, so you will have to jump over there.

There is a certain time/area where the fish can appear, and it can even be airdodged. It's the players responsibility to navigate themselves away from being eaten by the fish, failure to do so is NOT the stage's fault, but their own.

Like I said, only a "noob" would make that mistake. And I literally mean that. You do NOT have go down there, in any circumstance.

Say you had two people fighting each other on that stage. Player 1 risks the bottom, player 2 never does. Player 1 gets eaten twice, and player 2 wins. Why did player 1 lose, because of the stage or because of his actions?

You can't tech out of the chaingrab against the wall, not even if you normally would be able to escape his chaingrab, so that does make it a free kill against loads of characters. On top, all these other infinites make it even worse of a stage.

OMG, you really have no idea what you are saying do you? Avoid being grabbed at all is your solution? Really, if it was that easy, couldn't you just say, if you play so much bettter then your opponent that he can never hit you, you will be safe on any stage?

I never said you could tech out of the chaingrab agaisnt a wall. You can't tech out of any of the wall infinites, which again there is more than Dedede's. Do you need help reading?

NO, NO, NO banning SMI would never, ever make a character not being chaingrabbed by DDD weaker. I think you are completely missing the point here, Shadow Moses has way more problems then just DDD, you also have the fact that you don't kill until near 200%, the camping place in the lower part of the stage that is way overpowered and the fact that people can go stalling by picking a character with an infinite and switching their camp spot between the walls on the upper and lower part, making an aproach more of a suicide.

The fact that DDD does get his free kill, regardless of the fact that you realise this or not, just adds up to the reasons.

Sadly, your issue with insisting that SMI is a "free kill" for Dedede actually represents you as being clueless, not me. There is a lot more to SMI than Dedede's chaingrab, yet presented with multiple examples of what can go on with the stage, you ignore it and insist that Dedede has an autowin on that stage.

It WOULD make them weaker, because it is relative. If you remove x characters weakness to another character by removing x stages where that weakness can be exploited, that character is now stronger overall. If someone picks up snake, they would be thinking, "If I have to play Dedede on x course, they can exploit my weakness". But if you cut out those courses, now there is nothing. What happens to character y, who doesn't share the weakness? They have one less advantage than before over the other character. Now isn't that a convenient restructuring of balance?

Hell, you don't even remove infinites by removing stages with walls- Dedede can infinite CG 5 people while standing in place, and even Ice Climbers have some deadly CG. Removing stages with walls or walkoffs in attempt to eliminate CG infinites is merely going to remove the issue for SOME characters and going to leave other characters behind. This is why you can't take up rebalancing of things by declaring stuff "too much of an advantage" in certain stages, and eliminating them.

Yeah, I've not killed until 200% before on SMI. I've also not killed until 200% as Samus on battlefield, and killed at 89% on SMI with Zelda, and two 45% KO's as Luigi with an up-B and a bair off the side with the walls down. You're throwing out the same crap "way overpowered' and it's "not fair" and other bull**** that frankly, isn't true, because these things can not be judged in the way you think they can be judged. You simply can NOT define what is "too much" of an advantage and what isn't. You can gauge things that are random, ie. that have the potential of introducing luck, but you can not gauge something as "too strong" and attempt to rework balance with stages.

Indeed, Eten, you can say no expert would make that "mistake", but someone can keep you in place you know, you can't just always teleport to any part of the stage at will. And having a working edgeguard is basic for anyone even intrested in competitive play. One B-air shouldn't mean 1 KO, that would just mess up the game.

You do NOT have to have edgeguarding on a course to have it fair for competitive play. That stage already has water, no grabbable ledges, and rarely presents edgeguarding opportunities in the first place. This is the MOST ridiculous argument yet. There is NO edgeguarding on walk-off courses either. This is really ****ty ammunition you're using to try and prove me wrong. The point remains- nobody good is going to screw around where they can be KOed because they're trying to edgeguard. Saying something like "omg course sucks I try to edgeguard and fish eats me, stage should be banned" is just going to get you laughed at. Because it can be summarized very simply, "you're a noob for going down there, it wasn't the stage"

Someone could keep you in place only if you let them. If they could keep YOU in place, why couldn't you instead keep THEM in place?

I'm tired of you being so ignorant. You simply want to say, any stage with a wall is the same as any other stage with a wall. Well guess what, Shadow Moses is the only stage with walls this big, on both sides there is nothing you can compare it with, we really have to look at the stage itself, like it or not.

Any wall can be exploited in the same way! That's like saying "some walls are okay, but others are not!". Why? How the hell can you make that judgement? You can't, it's garbage, or else corneria can be just as bad or worse, given that it's a small place that's easy to camp, so it gives you a really close wall on one side and a really close blastline on the other. Yeah, we're looking at the stages here, but we're also trying to put some sense into what we're doing.

And you got it wrong as well, Hyrule wasn't banned for people running away, it was banned because of the underground where you can just tech everywhere,

Hyrule WAS banned because people can run away, NOT because you could tech. I can't believe YOU are calling OTHER people ignorant. People being able to tech like crazy on that course sure as heck presented a drastic change of things, but EVERYONE knew that that would never fly as a legit reason for banning, but a circular path clearly provides abuse in infinite stalling. That means that surviving is NOT a reason to ban Mushroomy kingdom, either version. Especially when there are plenty of horizontal KO options.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've done a bit of research on Summit, and it's way less extreme than everyone is giving it credit for at least insofar as relatively few of its elements are really random. Times are rounded to the nearest second.

0:11-13 into the course starting a cloud appears from the lower left and upper right. There seems to be a very small amount of random variance in this, but it is low enough that you can still generally depend on the clouds being there.

0:19-21 the clouds have finished passing.

0:28 into the course the Summit "breaks" and begins sliding down the mountain.

0:48 the course hits the water and the low gravity disappears.

0:59 a block of ice appears to the left side of the course.

1:04 this block breaks on the left side of the main platform.

1:27 the arrows appear indicating a soon ascent.

1:30 another block of ice appears from the left.

1:35 this block breaks just as the course begins to ascend. There is now high gravity.

1:39 The course finishes ascent; high gravity ends.

This repeats endlessly. The ice blocks sink when jumped on which can slow their movement.

The fish definitely never comes if you are physically standing on ground. Even teetering over the edge of the glacier, he didn't find Mr. Game & Watch an appetizing target. Once the glacier is at its deepest level of submergence, the fish seemed to occasionally come if you were pretty near the edge of the glacier, but the water currents made this really hard to deduce (the water is flowing at a steady rate to the right). If I stayed very close to the tip of the breakable ice platform, he definitely never came. The center is 100% safe, and since this course is sometimes on when I'm playing with friends, this has been commonly exploited. Hovering very close over any water never makes the fish appear; you must actually hit the water. I regret that I have not cracked the exact algorithm of fish appearance, but he's less extreme than he seems at first. One last note is that the fish does 15% damage if he hits you while coming up but doesn't kill you.

The water level changes randomly in a way. The polar bear in the background randomly jumps, and once his feet his the ground you sink one water level. After a short period of time which may or may not be random ( I haven't checked for this), the water level rises if he has not jumped again. There are only three distinct water levels: normal, partially submerged (which has the exact same properties as normal), and fully submerged where you will be forced to swim in the lower area.

The falling platform on the left collapses after being stood for a random duration of time. 5 seconds later it begins to rise, but it doesn't become a solid object until it finishes rising 8 seconds after the initial fall.

The icicles that form in that little nook form randomly, but they telegraph themselves as you can watch ice forming. If you attack them as they are forming, they can be broken. Weak hits sometimes don't break them; it takes both hits from Mr. Game & Watch's up aerial to prevent them from falling. Once falling, they do 20% damage but have low knockback.

The breakable ice platform, once broken, begins to reappear 8 seconds after being broken and finishes its entry at the 9 second mark. It seems to take a somewhat random amount of damage to break, but it tends to hover around four forward aerials from Luigi. It seems to take more hits to break if the hits are spread out more; it may just have constantly regenerating "health".

Of course, all ground in this course is icy with the exception of the clouds that drift by. This includes the ice blocks that drift by while the course is in the water. There are no grabbable ledges here no matter what.

I know this course is iffy, but it seems pretty manageable and like it deserves a shot. Once banned, the odds of courses ever being unbanned are pretty low so it would seem like a good idea to give it (and every course but the stupidly obvious ones) a shot. In either case, I hope this information helps people reach an informed decision about this course.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Final Destination also has mentally challenged edges. Care to try to cart that one off?

So it flips. Alarm bells ring. Getting owned by the stage is annoying, but it does not happen if you play right.

Don't you understand what the word NEUTRAL means? It doesn't have any of this random flipping nonsense, it doesn't promote camping, it is just that, NEUTRAL. Are you trying to sit here and tell me that stage is NEUTRAL? It's not broken, but it's not neutral.

Final destination does not have a changing environment, it doesn't have ******** edges, it has ******** curves, but not edges.

The stage is simply not neutral.

 

[MysticKenji]

I'd also like to point that Summit has no ledges anywhere, and the water on the descent can kill/do 18%

short vid