[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[SmashChu]

Just as an aside, you can create any moveset you want. This thread and MYM proves it.

What's more important is who is added and what they do.

 

[Big-Cat]

I read somehwere that MvC3 was made completely for fan-service. How do you think SSB4 would turn out if this was how the next game was tackled? Do you think America (or Europe/Aussie) would have any say in it? Would we see just japanese fan service?

That's an excellent question, because it depends on who they listen to and why. If you appeal strictly to the casuals, you can very well have a shallow, fanservicy game, likewise, you can have the opposite by appealing strictly to the hardcore.

I think the best answer would be to build fanservice on top of a well-designed engine. That way, everyone wins. In regards to who they should listen to, I say everyone. The series is more popular outside of Japan, but the Japanese fanservice can provide some surprises in terms of characters.

 

[Shorts]

That's an excellent question, because it depends on who they listen to and why. If you appeal strictly to the casuals, you can very well have a shallow, fanservicy game, likewise, you can have the opposite by appealing strictly to the hardcore.

I think the best answer would be to build fanservice on top of a well-designed engine. That way, everyone wins. In regards to who they should listen to, I say everyone. The series is more popular outside of Japan, but the Japanese fanservice can provide some surprises in terms of characters.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the Engine being realitvley flawless, and then building on that. It's a mystery as to why they didn't do that with Brawl, but who knows. Anyways, how do you feel a "fanservice" smash would go down in real life, knowing Sakurai and His tendencies?

I would like to point out that his last poll didn't make it out of Japan, am I correct? And Poor Aussie/Euro Gamers. Even if we get a voice, they wouldn't have a poll specifically adressed to them. Though if an english poll was made, they could join I guess. I sort of feel like American opinion is an after thought in Sakurai's mind. what do you think?

 

[libertyernie]

Would Sakurai even be in charge on the next Smash game? I'm thinking probably, but it's not certain AFAIK.

 

[SmashChu]

That's an excellent question, because it depends on who they listen to and why. If you appeal strictly to the casuals, you can very well have a shallow, fanservicy game, likewise, you can have the opposite by appealing strictly to the hardcore.

I think the best answer would be to build fanservice on top of a well-designed engine. That way, everyone wins. In regards to who they should listen to, I say everyone. The series is more popular outside of Japan, but the Japanese fanservice can provide some surprises in terms of characters.

You filled 'em.

Fan service is for the fans. Marvel vs Capcom 3 is full of fanservice because it is targeted to Marvel vs Capcom 2 fans. Smash has never been targeted at "fans," but "gamers." Also, you can't do both. There is no such thing as appealing to "hardcore," and "casual," because it's never worked. Too much fanservice is off putting to people.

 

[Big-Cat]

What do you mean Super Smash Bros. has never been targeted to fans? The main thing that attracts a lot of people to the SSB games is the fanservice, be it in the form of playable characters or cameos.

And MvC3's fanservice is more than just for the MvC2 fans. There are references to different Capcom games, personal tagouts (in the form of names, i.e. She-Hulk calls Hulk Bruce), and various Marvel storylines. Only fans would know that She-Hulk was a fourth wall breaking character back in the early nineties or that the vast majority of the Marvel character colors are from pass storylines like Storm's white color is a reference to her 90's costume.

You're still thinking that a game can only appeal to one or the other. You never consider the middle road.

 

[ryuu seika]

Prince Fluff

side-B --> a long-range grab attack or some sort of whip

See how Yarn Kirby grabs things with string? It should be that.

neutral B --> something awesome

Lol.

down-B --> like Kirby's down-B, but he comes out of it immediately after hitting the ground (and cannot cancel in mid-air)

What if it's used on the ground?

Also: made of yarn, or in 3D like everyone else?

Made of Yarn. Otherwise you might as well give blue Kirby a crown and call him a new character.

 

[Abel1994]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf9vLCMeB2g
lol

 

[SmashChu]

What do you mean Super Smash Bros. has never been targeted to fans? The main thing that attracts a lot of people to the SSB games is the fanservice, be it in the form of playable characters or cameos.

And MvC3's fanservice is more than just for the MvC2 fans. There are references to different Capcom games, personal tagouts (in the form of names, i.e. She-Hulk calls Hulk Bruce), and various Marvel storylines. Only fans would know that She-Hulk was a fourth wall breaking character back in the early nineties or that the vast majority of the Marvel character colors are from pass storylines like Storm's white color is a reference to her 90's costume.

First, I think your trying to solve the wrong problem.

Consider all the "reference," stuff. Who do you think cares about that? Why, the fans do. But this stuff will not appeal to anyone but the most dedicated of fans. Everyone else wont care. This is likely why lots of Crossover games don't do well. Yet Smash Brothers is the best selling fighting game around. In fact, we can conclude that fanservice was not the reason or the appeal of the series but the game play. To put this into perspective, here are the sales of many other crossovers

Jump Superstars
The Vs Series
Sega Tennis (which was the best of all I looked at)
Sonic and Sega All-Star Racing

There were lots of cameos, but most, if not all, of them are shoved in the back, such as trophies. People don't play Smash Brothers for trophies. Brawl's trophies were worse, but it didn't stop the game from selling 10 million. Seeing as most cross over games do less than one million, it's safe to say that is not the primary reason people buy the games.

You're still thinking that a game can only appeal to one or the other. You never consider the middle road.

Middle road is Latin for "lack of focus." When you try to be a jack of all trades you become a master of none. Even if you try to appeal to a small minority, it's better than trying to get the majority in it too and losing both.

 

[Rychu]

Yes, people buy the game for the gameplay, not the fact that Mario and Sonic and link and pikachu are in a game together.

Not to say the hardcore smashers werent in it for the actual gameplay, it's just... Well the smashbros community is but a small fraction of the sales. Most kids I knew buying it were getting it because it was Mario and Sonic and Link and Pikachu in a game together. And comparing the other fighting series? Kids would know a few superheroes in vs Capcom, but how many have heard of SNK or Tatsunoko? Smash attracts a lot of kiddies, man.

 

[flyinfilipino]

In fact, we can conclude that fanservice was not the reason or the appeal of the series but the game play.

No, you can't.

Smash is about fan service in the respect that the most popular franchises get represented more in the game in the form of characters, stages, etc. All crossover games are about fan service. You're just trying to twist this idea along with your regular sales comparisons into a definitive reason that Smash Bros. sells better than other fighting games that has to do with gameplay. As Getocoolaid said, forget the fact that the playable characters come from some of the biggest video game franchises in history, it's solely the gameplay.

Smash Bros.' style of fighting may very well be an important factor in its high sales compared to some recent traditional fighters. But you can't keep on preaching that it's the only factor, because it's just not true.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I think -- and if I'm wrong, disregard the rest of this -- Chu's trying to say that all the references in Smash are designed to be just as appealing to anyone who doesn't "get it."

That's the #1 way to include references in anything. The opposite would be the equivalent to a comedian who only tells inside jokes.


edit: either that or he's referring to the whole "4-Player Fighting Game" concept of old, which he'd also be right about

 

[flyinfilipino]

I think -- and if I'm wrong, disregard the rest of this -- Chu's trying to say that all the references in Smash are designed to be just as appealing to anyone who doesn't "get it."

That's the #1 way to include references in anything. The opposite would be the equivalent to a comedian who only tells inside jokes.

I get that (though if you don't get the references, then there's not much of an appeal there). It's just that when he says stuff like this:

Consider all the "reference," stuff. Who do you think cares about that? Why, the fans do. But this stuff will not appeal to anyone but the most dedicated of fans. Everyone else wont care. This is likely why lots of Crossover games don't do well. Yet Smash Brothers is the best selling fighting game around. In fact, we can conclude that fanservice was not the reason or the appeal of the series but the game play.

There are so many jumps in logic there. The reason crossover games don't do "well" is because people don't get the references?

I'd consider Smash Bros. a different sort of fighting game, a different genre even. It's obviously not a traditional fighting game, the differences are way too drastic. I think trying to compare them is kind of pointless.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I get that (though if you don't get the references, then there's not much of an appeal there). It's just that when he says stuff like this:

[Chu says stuff, scroll up son!]

There are so many jumps in logic there. The reason crossover games don't do "well" is because people don't get the references?

Think it's Chu being inconsistent, saying "the REAL problem is X!" for several paragraphs and then later having to address Y as an actual problem as well. Bad form perhaps, but I think if you heard it from someone considerably more articulate, you'd probably agree.

I'd be that guy, but I only have a passing familiarity with most crossovers beyond Smash. Since Marvel/Shonen Jump/etc. aren't obscure, a lack of sales would almost definitely be a result of what the general public perceives as poor quality of the game itself. David Hayter and friends wouldn't have been able to make so much money off of an X-Men movie if the content itself wasn't fine. And that didn't have Gambit either!

I'd consider Smash Bros. a different sort of fighting game, a different genre even. It's obviously not a traditional fighting game, the differences are way too drastic. I think trying to compare them is kind of pointless.

What I meant was more "most people like Smash gameplay more than traditional fighter gameplay." That's THE reason why it sells better. Mario and Pikachu are just comforting to the uninitiated. Anyone not from a game less popular than Smash (most of the cast) is pretty much the equivalent of exotic food on the menu; you didn't come for them, but they sure look good.

Spoiler

Hey, this tastes great!

 

[i8pie]

Just a quick note on Jump Super Stars; it wasn't released out of Japan, annoyingly enough (that and Namco X Capcom). And I wouldn't judge crossover sales in general with this game. Main reason is that it hasn't had an American release, other reason would be that this game has a sequel (Ultimate Stars) which is bigger and reminds me of Brawl (slower gameplay, but big series' like Hokuto no Ken and Bleach, and yes I've played both Super and Ultimate Stars).

Comparing the sales of Super Stars would be like using Smash Bros (the first game) sales rather than Brawl's as a comparison.

 

[flyinfilipino]

What I meant was more "most people like Smash gameplay more than traditional fighter gameplay." That's THE reason why it sells better. Mario and Pikachu are just comforting to the uninitiated. Anyone not from a game less popular than Smash (most of the cast) is pretty much the equivalent of exotic food on the menu; you didn't come for them, but they sure look good.

Spoiler

Hey, this tastes great!

I agree with that. What I don't agree with is that A) every fighter that isn't Smash Bros. isn't selling as much by virtue of not being like Smash Bros. (in other words, following the traditional fighter formula) and B) Brawl's increase in sales over Melee was not mainly due to gameplay changes (kind of not part of the current discussion, but SmashChu will eventually bring it up anyway).

 

[Arcadenik]

Sorry for being off-topic, but I was bored and I came up with some new Assist Trophy ideas.

Aquamentus from Game & Watch: Zelda (G&W)
The dragon appears 2D and monochrome like Mr. Game & Watch. The dragon flies around and breathes fire that rain down at the stage like in the original game. Check this video.

Hogan's Alley from Hogan's Alley (NES)
Targets appear and they flip around to show their images. Images of civilians and cops are not shot but images of criminals are shot. Anyone standing or jumping in front of the criminal targets are shot and gain 20% damage. Check this video from 0:00 to 1:20.

Iris from Golden Sun: Dark Dawn (DS)
The goddess of rainbows would appear and cause a sunburst that inflicts 50% damage to all opponents and completely heals your damage down to 0%. Check this video.

Mushroom Pikmin from Pikmin (GC)
These purple mushroom-capped Pikmin grow from the ground and they chase down your opponents and latch on to them as if Olimar threw his Pikmin at his opponents. Each Pikmin latching on an opponent would inflict 2% but it all adds up quickly if the opponent don't shake them off. Check this video from 0:00 to 1:00.

Paper-Cut Crusher from The Legendary Starfy (DS)
Papes, Snips, and Ronk appear and they gang on a random opponent. The opponent is then trapped inside a card where Papes, Snips, or Ronk would randomly attack. Papes inflicts 20% damage, Snips inflicts 30% damage, and Ronk inflicts 50% damage. Check this video from 2:00 to 3:50.

Oh, yeah. I also came up with a Golden Sun stage I would like to see in SSB4. The stage is called "Belinsk" because it takes place in a town called Belinsk. The battle takes place on the rooftops of Belinsk during the Grave Eclipse. The only hazard of this stage is Crystallux, a dragon summon who occasionally breaks through the roof of the Belinsk Opera House and attacks everyone across the rooftops. Be forewarned as this video might contain spoilers for those who haven't played Golden Sun: Dark Dawn.

 

[Big-Cat]

To be more faithful, I'd go with

Spoiler

all the shadow monsters you see once the Grave Eclipse happens for hazards, but for the sake of stage balance, Crystallux would be better.

 

[Arcadenik]

Kuma, that's what I originally considered but I decided to go with Crystallux because, well, dragons are cooler and I wanted Belinsk to have something unique.

Oh, yeah. There's something to be considered... since the stage would take place during the Grave Eclipse, that means the stage is going to be dark, right? I don't mean pitch-black like one of Togepi's moves but pretty dark like Luigi's Mansion or Frigate Orpheon. Crystallux could make it more brighter for a few seconds whenever it is around.

 

[Placebo Effect]

What do you mean Super Smash Bros. has never been targeted to fans? The main thing that attracts a lot of people to the SSB games is the fanservice, be it in the form of playable characters or cameos.

And MvC3's fanservice is more than just for the MvC2 fans. There are references to different Capcom games, personal tagouts (in the form of names, i.e. She-Hulk calls Hulk Bruce), and various Marvel storylines. Only fans would know that She-Hulk was a fourth wall breaking character back in the early nineties or that the vast majority of the Marvel character colors are from pass storylines like Storm's white color is a reference to her 90's costume.

You're still thinking that a game can only appeal to one or the other. You never consider the middle road.

I think he means that Nintendo doesn't listen to their fans. Take us for example, if we gave them all of our ideas, they would probably throw them down the toilet, whereas some other companies would actually listen. Lots of characters or not, they're just throwing things around hoping they hit, they're not actually listening to anybody.

But perhaps we should try anyways lol.

That and if they did make one, it would be incredible if it would be for the 3DS. :o

 

[Arcadenik]

This commercial for the first Golden Sun game also helped me make my decision to include Crystallux as the stage hazard of the Belinsk stage.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I did update my roster...

-------------------------------------
Mario series
Mario (Dr. Mario as an alternate outfit)
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Waluigi

Donkey Kong series
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
King K. Rool (Kaptain K. Rool alter ego as an alternate outfit)

Yoshi series
Yoshi

Wario series
Wario (WarioWare and Classic outfits)

The Legend of Zelda series
Link
Zelda / Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Vaati

Metroid series
Samus / Zero Suit Samus
Ridley (Meta Ridley as an alternate outfit)

Kirby series
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Star Fox series
Fox McCloud
Falco Lombardi
Wolf O'Donnell
Leon Powalski
Krystal

Pokemon series
Pikachu
Mewtwo
Lucario
Zoroark
Pokemon Trainer (uses Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur)
Jigglypuff

F-Zero series
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh
Black Shadow

Earthbound / Mother series
Ness
Lucas

Fire Emblem series
Marth
Ike

Pikmin series
Olimar

Nintendo Classics series
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game & Watch
Pit
R.O.B.

Sonic the Hedgehog series
Sonic the Hedgehog
Miles "Tails" Prower
Knuckles the Echidna
Amy Rose (Sonic Riders outfit is used as an alternate outfit)
Dr. Eggman
Shadow the Hedgehog

Final Fantasy series
White Mage (long robe and sports styled outfits)
Black Mage
Chocobo (Chocobo series)

Dragon Quest series
Hero (Dragon Quest VI)
Dragonlord (normal form by default; true form is a Final Smash)

?????
Geno

Roster Total
56 (excluding transformations)
-------------------------------------

Sorry Konami, sorry Solid Snake, and sorry Metal Gear series, but you're not on there. Time for Square Enix to take over. SEGA and the Sonic series sticks around though.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Mario_and_Sonic_Guy

Five more Sonic characters? Six SquareEnix characters? Five Star Fox characters yet Donkey Kong gets only three characters? Three F-Zero characters? Geno instead of Mega Man? Waluigi instead of Toad? Uhh... well, I would have liked to see new Nintendo franchises represented by playable characters. Where are Mii, Takamaru, Matthew (or Isaac), Isa (or Saki), Starfy, and especially Little Mac? I would have liked to see some balance in the series representation. I also think that more than 56 playable characters (yes, I am counting transformations) might be pushing it a little bit. Maybe 50-55 playable characters might be a bit more reasonable, don't you think so?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I agree with that. What I don't agree with is that

A) every fighter that isn't Smash Bros. isn't selling as much by virtue of not being like Smash Bros. (in other words, following the traditional fighter formula)

Well, Street Fighter II and Tekken 3 pulled numbers just short of Melee, so I'll concede that those games are certainly capable of Smash's current level of success. I just don't see as much potential in them barring some kind of overhaul.

Several million is still a major success though, so it's all good.

and B) Brawl's increase in sales over Melee was not mainly due to gameplay changes (kind of not part of the current discussion, but SmashChu will eventually bring it up anyway).

Can we skip the part where Chu gets involved? I like this kind of discussion and he tends to sour people on it.

What would you define as the main factor in Brawl's sales over Melee?



@Arc: You know, if they did come out with a new F-Zero and it doesn't bomb, I could totally see 3 F-Zero characters being included. Goroh for being Goroh and Black Shadow in the event that Sakurai likes the Ganon plan.

 

[flyinfilipino]

What would you define as the main factor in Brawl's sales over Melee?

Well, for one thing, there was a massive hype and advertising train. The Dojo really worked wonders for the game pre-Brawl, and everyone and their mother knew about it, either from the Internet or word of mouth. The first trailers were around for a pretty long time too, which helped build the momentum of hype early. The daily updates helped perpetuate the hype and continue the growing public knowledge of the game. Then came the delays, the revelation of Snake and Sonic, and stuff like that, which resounded through the media.

Honestly, not many people knew specific details about the changes in gameplay from Melee when they bought the game. Things of that nature were limited to places like Smashboards. People bought the game to continue the fight from Melee with shiny new graphics, new stages, and awesome new characters. The average gamer couldn't really tell you specifically what the differences are between Melee and Brawl anyway. They'll just tell you about all the awesome new characters and stages and graphics, and most likely would never even think to bring up the fact that grabbing the ledge is easier, for example. And even if you didn't like the fact that it was easier, would it stop you from buying the game? Nah.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Mario_and_Sonic_Guy

Five more Sonic characters? Six SquareEnix characters? Five Star Fox characters yet Donkey Kong gets only three characters? Three F-Zero characters? Geno instead of Mega Man? Waluigi instead of Toad? Uhh... well, I would have liked to see new Nintendo franchises represented by playable characters. Where are Mii, Takamaru, Matthew (or Isaac), Isa (or Saki), Starfy, and especially Little Mac? I would have liked to see some balance in the series representation. I also think that more than 56 playable characters (yes, I am counting transformations) might be pushing it a little bit. Maybe 50-55 playable characters might be a bit more reasonable, don't you think so?

Well there would be a total of 11 Mario Universe characters if you combined the four series' of the Mario Universe.

The other Nintendo franchises, I didn't even think about them. Mii is pretty stupid (Assist Trophy at best); Saki works; Isaac would work too; Takamaru might work; Starfy is questionable. There are others too, like Eggplant Man, but again there's the case for the Assist Trophy.

Regarding 3rd parties, I included the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series', considering Nintendo's history with them (especially the Dragon Quest remakes for the DS). Also, Square Enix has the rights to Geno as well.

Sorry, but it's never easy making a good roster when people give you complaints for different things.

 

[Arcadenik]

Of course, every roster will get complaints for whatever reason. I get that. But I think it is too much to have six Sonic characters and six SquareEnix characters. I think it would be more sensible to keep one Sonic character (Sonic, of course) and one SquareEnix character (why do I get the feeling you are going to keep Geno? ) and replace 10 other characters with 10 Nintendo characters. The focus of Smash Bros. is on Nintendo franchises, not Nintendo's partnerships with Sega and SquareEnix. That's what Nintendo vs. Sega and Nintendo vs. SquareEnix are for.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If only there really was a Nintendo vs. 3rd Party type of game out there. It stinks when you got these ideas, and yet you have to also take into account the space that they'll take up on the ISO.

 

[i8pie]

Waluigi should be replaced with Toad, seriously. He hasn't even been in a game outside of Mario Party/<insert sport>/Kart aside from Brawl. At least, Toad has been playable in an actual Mario game (two if you count the two Toads in NSMB Wii). Also too many series' are being over represented (F-Zero) whilst others being under (Donkey Kong). For Sega, they should keep Sonic with no additions, unless there's high demand for anyone like Shadow or Eggman.

Lastly, that's too many Square Enix characters, regardless of whether they've worked a lot with Nintendo before. The most Smash has for each series is 5 (Mario series in Melee), 6 if you count Squirtle, Charizard and Ivysaur seperately.

 

[SmashChu]

No, you can't.

Smash is about fan service in the respect that the most popular franchises get represented more in the game in the form of chalracters, stages, etc. All crossover games are about fan service. You're just trying to twist this idea along with your regular sales comparisons into a definitive r eason that Smash Bros. sells better than other fighting games that has to do with gameplay. As Getocoolaid said, forget the fact that the playabecharacters come from some of the biggest video game franchises in history, it's solely the gameplay.

Smash Bros.' style of fighting may very well be an important factor in its high sales compared to some recent traditional fighters. But you can't keep on preaching that it's the only factor, because it's just not true.

One thing I learned on the internet is that no one likes direct statements. If I used more fluff and was indirect, a normal discussion goes on.

I came to the conclusion because the numbers point that way. I may be crazy, but I try to follow what the facts point to. If every other crossover game is doing poorly, and Smash isn't, we can safely say that there is a huge difference between the two that makes one sell like hotcakes while the others don't. My answer was fanservice. Even if you disagree, you would still have to acknowledge that fanservice isn't pushing sales (or all of those games would have done better).

Sakurai's original idea used original characters. The Nintendo characters got in because it's hard to make a cast of characters. At the time, they had no plans of it going out of Japan. If a bunch of Nintendo characters fighting was thought to not do well, then we can say that the Nintendo characters likely wasn't the reason it was a hit. This is also why I say that Smash isn't about the fanservice (well, it is by association, but I explain more about this down farther), it's about being a good game.

I think -- and if I'm wrong, disregard the rest of this -- Chu's trying to say that all the references in Smash are designed to be just as appealing to anyone who doesn't "get it."

That's the #1 way to include references in anything. The opposite would be the equivalent to a comedian who only tells inside jokes.


edit: either that or he's referring to the whole "4-Player Fighting Game" concept of old, which he'd also be right about

Yeah, pretty much. The thing about a lot of the other games is they love to beat you over the head with the references. Smash is subtle with them. Outside of the character's personalities, they tend to go at it and fight which is what people want.

Let's take Marvel vs Capcom 3 since it's the talk of the town now.
Intro Movie 1
Intro Movie 2
Intro Movie 3
Intro Movie 4

Notice how those are made to be "the best thing you've ever watched." Of course, if you really didn't care about the characters that much, would you find them interesting. There is also all the ending quotes, character endings and smack talk at the begging. There is also the menus full of characters fighting. This matters to only to the most diehard of fans. Let's ignore the lack of modes though....

Smash has some of these things, but they are never in your face. There's Snake's codec, but you'd have to look online to be able to do it. There are the trophies which get ignored anyway. But never do they come out and beat the player. They are there and are more subtle. This is probably why more than just diehard Nintendo fans like the series.

 

[flyinfilipino]

If every other crossover game is doing poorly, and Smash isn't, we can safely say that there is a huge difference between the two that makes one sell like hotcakes while the others don't. My answer was fanservice. Even if you disagree, you would still have to acknowledge that fanservice isn't pushing sales (or all of those games would have done better).

Sakurai's original idea used original characters. The Nintendo characters got in because it's hard to make a cast of characters. At the time, they had no plans of it going out of Japan. If a bunch of Nintendo characters fighting was thought to not do well, then we can say that the Nintendo characters likely wasn't the reason it was a hit. This is also why I say that Smash isn't about the fanservice (well, it is by association, but I explain more about this down farther), it's about being a good game.


Yeah, pretty much. The thing about a lot of the other games is they love to beat you over the head with the references. Smash is subtle with them. Outside of the character's personalities, they tend to go at it and fight which is what people want.

Let's take Marvel vs Capcom 3 since it's the talk of the town now.
Intro Movie 1
Intro Movie 2
Intro Movie 3
Intro Movie 4

Notice how those are made to be "the best thing you've ever watched." Of course, if you really didn't care about the characters that much, would you find them interesting. There is also all the ending quotes, character endings and smack talk at the begging. There is also the menus full of characters fighting. This matters to only to the most diehard of fans. Let's ignore the lack of modes though....

Smash has some of these things, but they are never in your face. There's Snake's codec, but you'd have to look online to be able to do it. There are the trophies which get ignored anyway. But never do they come out and beat the player. They are there and are more subtle. This is probably why more than just diehard Nintendo fans like the series.

You have to take into account what fans the fanservice is catering to. Smash Bros. is a Nintendo video game. The cast of characters consists of the main characters from the biggest Nintendo franchises, some of which are the top-selling videogame franchises. Of course Smash Bros. is going to draw in more fans/buyers by virtue of being a Nintendo crossover game.

I don't know what you mean by the original characters bit. I'm aware that Smash Bros. was going to use original characters in the beginning. But they decided to use Nintendo characters, and it was a hit. How does this not mean that the Nintendo characters are a main-selling point of the game?

I don't think Smash is more subtle with its references. Sure, the Marvel vs. Capcom characters have more dialogue, but you can chalk that up to most Nintendo protagonists not having many speaking lines in their games (Mario, Link, Samus). The references in Smash permeate the characters' movesets, the battle music, the stages, the items, everything.

Also, weren't those MvC intro movies sort of used as trailers as well? Wouldn't those be analogous to pre-Brawl release trailers, and the Subspace Emissary cutscenes? That's what trailers are for, to make games look more exciting so that you'll buy them.

 

[SmashChu]

You have to take into account what fans the fanservice is catering to. Smash Bros. is a Nintendo video game. The cast of characters consists of the main characters from the biggest Nintendo franchises, some of which are the top-selling videogame franchises. Of course Smash Bros. is going to draw in more fans/buyers by virtue of being a Nintendo crossover game.

The variation is far to high for that to make sense. Marvel has a lot of popular properties. So does Jump. And Capcom, and Sega too. But their games have not preformed that well. Some of these have more popular properties than Nintendo. So why is Smash brothers so big? Again, the properties do not explain it (the difference in sales is too wide for how popular the properties are.

I don't know what you mean by the original characters bit. I'm aware that Smash Bros. was going to use original characters in the beginning. But they decided to use Nintendo characters, and it was a hit. How does this not mean that the Nintendo characters are a main-selling point of the game?

Two thing

1. The game was not designed around Nintendo characters. Unlike games like Marvel vs Capcom or Jump Superstars, where the fact they were crossovers was a day 1 thing, Smash only did it as a means to an end. The goal was always to create an easy to pick up and play fighting game. The characters never detracted from that. This is also why we don't have the references beat us over the head.
2. Sakurai and Nintendo were not sure how well the game would have done, and the game was originally not going to leave Japan. These are experienced people who are active in the business. Yet, we as forum dwellers say "Oh, of course it sold, it's Mario fighting Link." It's likely they know "Mario vs Link," was not going to pull in a lot of people save for diehard Nintendo fans (a dieing breed at the time). The game had to sell on it's strengths as a good game.

I don't think Smash is more subtle with its references. Sure, the Marvel vs. Capcom characters have more dialogue, but you can chalk that up to most Nintendo protagonists not having many speaking lines in their games (Mario, Link, Samus). The references in Smash permeate the characters' movesets, the battle music, the stages, the items, everything.

Note that a lot of the characters in the game can talk or could talk, but they don't. Even Smash's menus lack all the details of the characters. The menu is a means to an end in Smash, but is fan service in MvC3.

Also, weren't those MvC intro movies sort of used as trailers as well? Wouldn't those be analogous to pre-Brawl release trailers, and the Subspace Emissary cutscenes? That's what trailers are for, to make games look more exciting so that you'll buy them.

Movie 4 was only seen after people had the game. It was not pre-release. Even if we want to compare the pre-release trailers, all of Brawls, save for the very first one, were focused on the game play. They all showcased what the actual game looked like and all of them were progress reports.

 

[flyinfilipino]

The variation is far to high for that to make sense. Marvel has a lot of popular properties. So does Jump. And Capcom, and Sega too. But their games have not preformed that well. Some of these have more popular properties than Nintendo. So why is Smash brothers so big? Again, the properties do not explain it (the difference in sales is too wide for how popular the properties are.

My main point was that all of the characters in Smash Bros. originate from video games already, and gamers are going to be the target audience for the game. Half of the characters from MvC come from Marvel, and most Marvel fans know of them through comics, TV shows, movies, etc.

Two thing

1. The game was not designed around Nintendo characters. Unlike games like Marvel vs Capcom or Jump Superstars, where the fact they were crossovers was a day 1 thing, Smash only did it as a means to an end. The goal was always to create an easy to pick up and play fighting game. The characters never detracted from that. This is also why we don't have the references beat us over the head.
2. Sakurai and Nintendo were not sure how well the game would have done, and the game was originally not going to leave Japan. These are experienced people who are active in the business. Yet, we as forum dwellers say "Oh, of course it sold, it's Mario fighting Link." It's likely they know "Mario vs Link," was not going to pull in a lot of people save for diehard Nintendo fans (a dieing breed at the time). The game had to sell on it's strengths as a good game.

I see what you mean now. But now that the Smash Bros. series has sold plenty, spawned sequels and taken off outside of Japan, can you still ignore the star quality of the series as an important factor in its game design and increasing sales?

Note that a lot of the characters in the game can talk or could talk, but they don't. Even Smash's menus lack all the details of the characters. The menu is a means to an end in Smash, but is fan service in MvC3.

I don't know about the menus in MvC3, can you give examples? Also, the Marvel characters originated in comic books where they have speech and everything. Many of the Capcom characters have speaking lines in their games too, but most Nintendo characters originated earlier and have kept the tradition of mostly not talking. Which Smash characters would you consider talkative (Sonic, Snake, maybe)? I mean, Mario does talk some when he attacks, but trash-talking would be a little out-of-character for him because he doesn't speak that much.


Movie 4 was only seen after people had the game. It was not pre-release. Even if we want to compare the pre-release trailers, all of Brawls, save for the very first one, were focused on the game play. They all showcased what the actual game looked like and all of them were progress reports.

Alright, but plenty of gameplay videos were released before MvC3 came out as well. It happened for every character reveal too. I don't think there's anything wrong with showing off a nice, cinematic movie along side the frantic nature of the gameplay videos.

Responses are in bold up there.

 

[Kenshinhan]

Of all the Square-Enix characters I think Sora would have the best chance of making it into the next SSB.

 

[ryuu seika]

So this is now just a discussion of the accursed quadrangle again?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Looks like it. Doesn't it seem funny how one roster can lead to an uproar. I guess that's why I'm usually better off keeping my thoughts to myself.

 

[Bowser D.X]

I dont know if this has been suggested or not. But I think there should be multiple move sets for each character. Also Koopa Trooper should be a playable character.

 

[ryuu seika]

Koopa Trooper would end up stealing specials from Pit (UpB) and Squirtle (shell spin) and likely take a lot of his regular moves from elsewhere too. I don't see him doing anything unique.

 

[Arcadenik]

Looks like it. Doesn't it seem funny how one roster can lead to an uproar. I guess that's why I'm usually better off keeping my thoughts to myself.

What uproar? I was only telling you that I think your roster has serious problems with the balance of series representation and it has a lack of focus on Nintendo.

 

[~XP~]

With what I've seen with Sakurai, he likes making different physics for each Smash games. I for one, really admire that. I'd like to see a new game physic, but keeping the basic concept of smash. I can't quite say I know what type of physics I want, it's just interesting to see what he comes up with.