[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[SmashChu]

Okay, I appreciate you showing me why that example of execution won't work for ground pound because you believe it won't feel right. However, Tap-Hold (Charging) is not relegated to simply charging anymore. Not in Brawl. Tap-Hold in A comboes and B moves also means continued use until button release.

With that given in Brawl, let's look at Ground Pound.

Ground Pound's physics is Mario slamming down from the air, and so holding down B is a representation of going from unpressed to pressed and held, as a pound does when he sits down. The hold part also simulates to a person that holding the button makes sense while Mario is in the process of going down. This is an alternative to using Thumb stick held Down (as DDD's Up B is held up.) Why an alternative? Because if not, then no other Down B move could co-exist as a tap b but hold down stick for DI. (ie using tornado and DI'ing down with it would be negated by facilitating Ground Pound with hold stick down rather than button)

He's in stun state from the impact (recovery frames) so a visual cue of the move being done allows you to see to let go of B by that time.

One of your biggest problems is using silly mombo jumbo. If people can;t understand your ideas, then you wasted both of our time.

Consider the bold. That is, that holding the button continues the move until released (which has been present in Smash Brothers since, at the latest, Melee).

The problem is Mario is going to do a completely different moves when you hold the B button down longer. When you hold B for jigglypuff's rollout, she charges the attack. When you release the button, the move is "released." This is present in many games including Megaman and Metroid. This motion feels natural as the player understands that the move is stronger if you hold the button and when you release the button, the move comes out.

When the player holds down the button with Mario's Down B, he will immediately do a new attack. Your thinking in terms of ques, but players wont think like that. They will see the moves being like every other move, coming out on first press (holding is only for charge moves and this is intuitive as it's in a bunch of games). This would be in contrast to every move in the game.

The other problem is that what is going to be the hold down time? It works for Quick Draw, Headbutt and Roll Out because if you tap it, it still works, and if you hold it slightly longer then it comes out (just not as fast). In this scenario, if you hold it slightly longer, you are no longer doing Fludd (or Mario Tornado) but a different move all together.

The problem is you are taking your idea and say "Oh, golly yes it will work." Note how what you said is the same thing just edited to add what I said before. You need to take into account how people will play.

Shield Specials, anyone?

Samus's Shield Special could be turning into the Morph Ball and dropping a Super Bomb. Unlike her normal Bombs, the Super Bomb takes a few seconds before finally exploding like the Smart Bomb item. I think this might change Samus's tactics. She might want to lure or throw her opponent towards the Super Bomb so they would get caught in the large explosion and suffer a high amount of damage.

How about Thunder Wave for Pikachu's Shield Special? It is an electric-type move that causes paralysis. Maybe Pikachu could surround itself in an electric force field and it gets bigger to a certain size the longer you hold down the B button. Anyone who gets inside the electric force field would get stunned (but no damage) as if their shields just broke. This gives Pikachu the opportunity to close in and deliver a finishing move (either down+B or smash side+A, you know?)

How about Leech Seed for Ivysaur? It would shoot a seed at an opponent and then the opponet's percentage steadily goes up while Ivysaur's percentage steadily goes down for five seconds. That, or Grass Knot, where grass grows around Ivysaur and opponents will always trip every time they walk on grass. That would give Ivysaur a chance to use Bullet Seed to inflict lots of damage or smash them off the stage.

The problem with the shield specials is they are defensive moves (most of them). Part of the reason for moves like reflector and nyrul's love is that they offer an advantage for that character. If every character has a shield special, it dilutes that. It also doesn't sould like what is being offered is that fun.

Most fighting games (unless you are Dante from MvC 3) have anywhere from 2 to 5 moves. Each characters in Smash Brothers has 4. I think they have enough moves.

EDIT: Most of these moves would be examples of potential down specials.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Necessity is a mother of invention. Given Sakurai's attention to detail, he will 'likely' add a way to add more B moves to necessitate moves he may have missed for certain characters in their origin-game, for the sake of making them look more complete from that game.

Also, Sakurai may wish to add moves that flesh that character out in strategy and worth (such as added recovery, combo ability, etc)

Your thesis statement may be true for some characters who already have what they need, but some characters are sorely missing a move from their origin-game which WOULD help them out. Characters that are somewhat lackluster in performance now.

You say that some characters need more B moves to flesh out their movesets and make them better: do you have any examples? For example, a character's recovery that couldn't simply be made better by improving their Up B rather than giving them a new extra move? Combo ability usually stems from A moves; couldn't some properties of A moves be changed to allow for better combo ability, rather than adding a new move?

Also, I always figured Ground Pound should be Mario's Down Aerial.

 

[Big-Cat]

Speaking of comboability, I don't really care for Zamus' DAir. You can see it coming with no problems. If this attack was like other dive kicks in other fighters where the initial startup is really quick with minimal recovery to induce pressure on the opponent.

 

[Kenshinhan]

When the player holds down the button with Mario's Down B, he will immediately do a new attack. Your thinking in terms of ques, but players wont think like that. They will see the moves being like every other move, coming out on first press (holding is only for charge moves and this is intuitive as it's in a bunch of games). This would be in contrast to every move in the game.

The other problem is that what is going to be the hold down time? It works for Quick Draw, Headbutt and Roll Out because if you tap it, it still works, and if you hold it slightly longer then it comes out (just not as fast). In this scenario, if you hold it slightly longer, you are no longer doing Fludd (or Mario Tornado) but a different move all together.

Most fighting games (unless you are Dante from MvC 3) have anywhere from 2 to 5 moves. Each characters in Smash Brothers has 4. I think they have enough moves.

I've bolded your points I intend to argue, as I see them as the gist of what you're saying in rebuttal to the example with Ground Pound execution. If I've missed anything else that's pertinent, please let me know.

Your first point is refuted by the existence of continued use. (dating back to Melee) Once a button is pressed and then held, the combo continues until button release to simulate the ability to keep up an effort until the effort is released. Thus, with Ground Pound's example of B(held) + Thumb stuck down (held) you see the player intends to both naturally assumes the motion requires downward DI and B(held) for emphasis on the physics of slamming down onto something with force. This alone is enough to warrant Down(hold)+B(hold) for aerial-only Ground Pound in SSB4 Mario's moveset. The visual cue of recovery frames(after having slammed down) will cue the player that the move has finished and they can button release.

Your second point is refuted by the fact that he continued use of moves with B(held) is timed very well past the first button press of B. You can see evidence in this by simply tapping B and holding it on a Fox's laser, vs just simply tapping it(or tapping it repeatedly.) This means that the timing of differentiating a Tap Down B to a Tap-Hold Down B is well over a few frames. For example, for 10 active frames (1/6 of a second) would be the frame-length requirement to option select into Ground Pound over Mario Tornado. As compared to a simple Button Tap of B without holding Down on Thumb Stick. It's very hard to botch either move at this point of frame-length Button Held requirement.

Your last point is refuted by the fact that just because Mario would have variance on one or two B moves in aerial doesn't mean it's any more complex. Once again, you cannot confuse quantity with complexity when you consider that A-tilts have always existed as an extra set of attacks off of A (only 3 extra) and, this proposition only adds ONE extra B move off of a very specific Aerial state.

---

You say that some characters need more B moves to flesh out their movesets and make them better: do you have any examples? For example, a character's recovery that couldn't simply be made better by improving their Up B rather than giving them a new extra move? Combo ability usually stems from A moves; couldn't some properties of A moves be changed to allow for better combo ability, rather than adding a new move?

Also, I always figured Ground Pound should be Mario's Down Aerial.

Your first bolded point is address in the thread earlier. Some people have said my posts are repetitive and don't add something new, because rather than insult anyone, I simply repeat what I have stated before.
- Adding Mario's Ground Pound while keeping Mario's Tornado is a reason of having B variance in his Aerial-Down(held)+B(held) state for Ground Pound, while he can still activate his Down(tap) B(tap) Tornado in either aerial or ground state. Not only is this so easy not to botch given timing requirements of held button presses vs tap, but it's just ONE extra aerial-only move. Is that still to complex? Really?

- Combo ability stems from A moves so far that we've seen(when you disregard continuation B-presses, or the combination of B-moves with A-air comboes) but what's to keep Sakurai from doing simple, small extensions of B-moves further in the next SSB4, when he's already done this with B-moves? Why wouldn't he evolve B-moves further from simple continuation variance or corresponding-move variance(where both Bmove and varying Bmove are similar moves) when you have such difference in A-tilts vs A-smashes?(arguably harder to master than B tap/hold variance)

The last point is something I agree with, so long that you don't simultaneously want Mario's Down+B(tap) Tornado to return in place of FLUDD(which could be changed to Side+b(Hold) since it's a continuous stream of water, and charged). Once you want to keep Tornado and/or FLUDD, adding a B(hold)+dir(Hold) variance for aerial-only Ground Pound is necessary.

 

[Big-Cat]

As much as I like your posts, kenshinhan, and that you try to argue these as civil and mature as possible, the way you dissect points from a post seems a bit uppity. This isn't an English class, no need for such formalities except when necessary.

How about this for Ground Pound:

Do Down-SMASH (I prefer this over hold) + B. I understand that your going with input matching the action on screen. However, I think it being a Smash type input still emphasizes that this move is gonna hurt and emphasizes the gravitational acceleration of the attack as well.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

On another note, who came up with special shielding? Props to that guy, I like it.

'Twas me. Y'elcome.

As for your ideas, mister 'we need slight variants on button inputs to do drastically different things', think of it this way.
Say you're playing as Mario, and fall of a cliff. You Press up B to recover, but absentmindendly hold B. As such, you do a completely different move that ruins you. You lose your last life and the game due to giving each character 50 new random moves that are only slightly different inputs than existing moves, but do different things entirely.
Sonic doesn't need the shields. They're unimportant. They're powerups. That's good for Mario, the entire basis of his games is getting powerups. That's how you navigate levels, solve puzzles, etc. But Sonic's powerups are only incidental. In fact, they facilitate the main theme of the game, running fast.
The Speed Shoes, the most common powerup, aren't translatable into fighting in the first place besides as an item, and they make you run faster.
The Barrier allows for running fast and giving you a third hit.
The Invincibility lets you run fast without losing rings.
Whereas Mario's Cape let's him fly, and Flower lets him shoot, Sonic doesn't have powerups like that in his games. The closest is Sonic Colors, but those powers aren't ever going to reappear and you know it.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Ground Pound has never been one of Mario's main powers, and if you didn't notice, at least 4 other characters already do the EXACT same move, and it's more iconic to them.

So, let's put this ugly buisness behind us and talk about potential Shield Bs, shall we?
Also, one guy, plenty of Brawl characters have shields already, and plenty of others could.
Mario's Cape, Peach's Toad(Although I support Toad as a character, she can use Toadsworth), Zelda's Nayru's Love, Pit's Shield, Kirby's Stone, Fox, Falco and Wolf's reflectors(All now very different), Lucario's Double Team(Although I think he should be removed), Jigglypuff's Rest(Make sing ihs Down B and give him an actual recovery move), Marth & Ike's Counters, Ness and Lucas's PSI Magnets(Although I'm hoping they'll be decloned), G&W's Oil Bucket would all become Guard Bs.
Some ideas for GB's for existing characters;
Bowser: Hides in his Shell and just stays there. Works like Kirby's Stone, but with no stomping capabilities.
Link: Pulls out the Mirror Shield and holds it in front of him. Can walk with it out, like as if Z-Targeting, as long as it's Held, but after a time limit, it is forced to stop. Reflects non-material projectiles(Mario's Fireballs, but not Link's Arrows).
Sonic'd get the Insta-Shield I mentioned earlier.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Your first bolded point is address in the thread earlier. Some people have said my posts are repetitive and don't add something new, because rather than insult anyone, I simply repeat what I have stated before.
- Adding Mario's Ground Pound while keeping Mario's Tornado is a reason of having B variance in his Aerial-Down(held)+B(held) state for Ground Pound, while he can still activate his Down(tap) B(tap) Tornado in either aerial or ground state. Not only is this so easy not to botch given timing requirements of held button presses vs tap, but it's just ONE extra aerial-only move. Is that still to complex? Really?

- Combo ability stems from A moves so far that we've seen(when you disregard continuation B-presses, or the combination of B-moves with A-air comboes) but what's to keep Sakurai from doing simple, small extensions of B-moves further in the next SSB4, when he's already done this with B-moves? Why wouldn't he evolve B-moves further from simple continuation variance or corresponding-move variance(where both Bmove and varying Bmove are similar moves) when you have such difference in A-tilts vs A-smashes?(arguably harder to master than B tap/hold variance)

The last point is something I agree with, so long that you don't simultaneously want Mario's Down+B(tap) Tornado to return in place of FLUDD(which could be changed to Side+b(Hold) since it's a continuous stream of water, and charged). Once you want to keep Tornado and/or FLUDD, adding a B(hold)+dir(Hold) variance for aerial-only Ground Pound is necessary.

First off, referring to what you were talking to SmashChu about, you use the example of the minute control difference between Fox firing a single Blaster shot and multiple shots in a row. Do we really want that minute control toggle to be the difference between executing two completely different moves? Again, it's not the complexity of the idea or the controls that's a turn-off (it's not hard to grasp); it's the fact that it just looks like you're squeezing in more moves for the sake of having them. You can argue it's "likely" based on some pattern, but if you look at the big picture, is it really necessary?

(Also, agreed with KumaOso; your wording is getting really fuzzy and hard to follow. Keep it simple.)

I'm just not getting this "logical leap" that you seem to be preaching that Sakurai is going to eventually just add more "B move variance" for the heck of it. Again, it'll happen if it's necessary. If, in the process of coming up with a special move for a character, there's room for a situational effect, it'll be tacked on with a minute change in control input or not.

 

[Big-Cat]

Again, what do you guys think of the Advancing Guard mechanic? How do you think this would be best adapted for Smash since we don't want the game more defensive than it is.

 

[Kenshinhan]

There are several points some of you are ignoring as arguable and, instead keep disagreeing with the examples given and stating that disagreement of example as a basis as to why NO B variance should exist. Stop doing that, as that is a logical fallacy. Just because you disagree with the example as being 'worthy' of extra moves, doesn't mean extra moves is also bad because of it.

Points you must contend:
- Sakurai may wish to add more B moves as a way to balance out characters(lack luster) with added recoveries, simultaneous to giving them moves from their origin-games that they do not have in Brawl.

- A-tilt vs A-smash variance is a lot easier to botch than Rapid Tap, Tap, and Tap-Hold variance. It's almost like you're saying you prefer harder A-tilt vs A-smash botch/no-botch challenge as it comes up in a fight. You prefer the more complex route?

- Recovery will not be effected at all by new B-moves, especially when the variant B moves would help recovery as a grounds of adding the new b-moves;especially when the character in question has a good move set but lacks too much recovery in the context of balance in this NEW SSB4.

- Ground Pound is a lot harder to botch when you have to (Hold) Dir + (Hold) B to make it come out, as opposed to using Mario Tornado (Tap and/or Hold) Dir + (Tap-Rapid Tap) B to get your recovery going. Think about how long you have to pressure B button just to get the game to Option Select Ground Pound instead of Tornado. It's not going to botch if the frame-length requirement on button-held is at least 1/6 of a second, because anytime you're tapping B, that's quicker than 1/6 of a second. Hell, tapping B with that constraint is easier than trying to tap X/Y for a short-hop.

 

[SmashChu]

I've bolded your points I intend to argue, as I see them as the gist of what you're saying in rebuttal to the example with Ground Pound execution. If I've missed anything else that's pertinent, please let me know.

I can see what Toise was talking about. You try to keep a strong argument but for a straw house. The argument style is fine, but it doesn't have a strong foundation.

Your first point is refuted by the existence of continued use. (dating back to Melee) Once a button is pressed and then held, the combo continues until button release to simulate the ability to keep up an effort until the effort is released. Thus, with Ground Pound's example of B(held) + Thumb stuck down (held) you see the player intends to both naturally assumes the motion requires downward DI and B(held) for emphasis on the physics of slamming down onto something with force. This alone is enough to warrant Down(hold)+B(hold) for aerial-only Ground Pound in SSB4 Mario's moveset. The visual cue of recovery frames(after having slammed down) will cue the player that the move has finished and they can button release.

In any instance that a character does something different with the button presses, it's never a different move, but the same move. When you mash B with Fox, he is just doing a rapid fire blaster, not doing some flip kick. With Samus's missile, it shots a different kind of missile not a ice shot. I'll now use some other examples from other games. Trust me, there are likely many more

• In Megaman 4 and beyond, Megaman could charge his shot. The player held down the button to charge the shot. The player did not hold down the button to slide
• In Metroid games after Super, Samus chould charge her shot in the same way. Samus doesn't shot a missile by holding it down.
• In Halo, the Plasma Pistol can charge up and home if you hold it all the way. It doesn't fire a grenade if you hold it down long enough
• In Team Fortress 2, for the Demoman if you hold down fire, you can shot your sticky bombs farther. He doesn't throw a stick of TNT instead.
  In any Kirby game with the UFO power, if you just tap the button, Kirby fires a beam (like the beam power). Hold it down longer to fire a laser, and if you keep holding, you fire a big laser. Even though you may think this would be like ground pound, note that Kirby always does a laser when you press the button. He doesn't try to abduct people by tapping the button.
  
  The bold is what you are not getting. It's not the end of the move we are taking about, it's doing the move in general.

Your second point is refuted by the fact that he continued use of moves with B(held) is timed very well past the first button press of B. You can see evidence in this by simply tapping B and holding it on a Fox's laser, vs just simply tapping it(or tapping it repeatedly.) This means that the timing of differentiating a Tap Down B to a Tap-Hold Down B is well over a few frames. For example, for 10 active frames (1/6 of a second) would be the frame-length requirement to option select into Ground Pound over Mario Tornado. As compared to a simple Button Tap of B without holding Down on Thumb Stick. It's very hard to botch either move at this point of frame-length Button Held requirement.

Now your getting into the next huge problem. If we were to to consider doing this, what is the window to do a move. In my last post, most games, if any, do not do what you are suggesting. Now we have to make sure the player does a ground pound when they want and FLUDD/Tornado when they want. In every other instance, we never had that problem. All the moves were distinct (you wouldn't mix up Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop for instance). Now, the same input does the same move.

I rag on fighting games a lot, but what they've gotten right is making sure the motions are unique. Taking Tatsunoko vs Capcom, characters rarely have a forward quarter circle and a forward half circle. Typically, if they can, they'll separate them (make it a quarter circle forward and a half circle back). If you can do the motions, you usually don't have a problem messing up the special moves. When making a fighting game, you have to consider this. It's one thing to shot 2 lasers when you wanted 5. It's another to do a completely different move then what you wanted, perhaps setting you up for being KOed.

Your last point is refuted by the fact that just because Mario would have variance on one or two B moves in aerial doesn't mean it's any more complex. Once again, you cannot confuse quantity with complexity when you consider that A-tilts have always existed as an extra set of attacks off of A (only 3 extra) and, this proposition only adds ONE extra B move off of a very specific Aerial state.

My argument was never about the complexity of it (which shows me you are just posting the same points and counter points as this was everyone else's point). My argument was that it will not feel right to the player. It will feel wrong and it just leads to unnecessary errors which lead to frustration.

You are thinking like a player, not a designer. It might make sense to you, but take some random player. Will they find it intuitive? Will they not make mistakes.

The other thing, which flyinfilipino put nicely, is do we even need this extra move?

Again, what do you guys think of the Advancing Guard mechanic? How do you think this would be best adapted for Smash since we don't want the game more defensive than it is.

The problem with it is that we already have perfect shielding. It works well for the Vs games but not for Smash I think.

 

[SuperMetroid44]

It is pretty interesting that a nameless dog from a NES game that came out in 1985 is still more well-known and more recognizable than the majority of Nintendo characters who have names throughout Nintendo's history (except for those who are playable in Melee/Brawl).

Source? As for the names, it's still valid, the dog is just called "Dog", that alone shows it's un-importantance. And note how every character that has a, how you say, "simple" name, at least they have some sort of design. Like "R.O.B." has an interesting robot design. It's not super creative, but it's a unique design that you can tell. The Dog is just a simple brown dog that grins. That's it...

If someone was to argue Nintendogs, that arguement can be used against them as well, but the general, more known design for Nintendog is White Labrador. So at least that makes sense.

Side Special moves in Melee and Final Smashes in Brawl. What is next? Special Shield moves? I think that would be pretty cool. All characters would have only one Special Shield move. To use a Special Shield move, one would need to press the shield button (that's the L or R button) and the B button at the same time. That does not sound too complicated for the casual players to understand but I think it might really change the tier positions for many characters in tourney play.

Here are some ideas for Special Shield moves.

Mario and Luigi get the Rainbow Star item from both Super Mario Galaxy games. A ? block appears above them and they automatically jump and hit it and the star pops out from it. Why does it take too long for them to actually get the power-up? That's because they would be invincible like they would with the Starman item but they can now inflict damage to the opponents just by touching them! So you cannot just abuse this move as much as you want to and the opponents still have a small window of opportunity to stop Mario or Luigi from getting the star.

Peach gets the Heart item from Mario Kart: Double Dash!! where the hearts negate projectiles and she is able to return the projectiles by pressing Shield+Special. This move would work best in matches with items turned on and against characters who use projectiles (ex. Ness, Samus, Link, etc.)

Pit gets the Protective Crystal item from the older Kid Icarus games where the two crystals will encircle Pit and cause damage to his opponents on contact and reduces the amount of damage Pit gets by half (ex. Samus's fully charged shot inflicts 26% damage but with Pit's special shield activated, he would receive only 13% damage)

Zelda's Nayru's Love becomes her Special Shield move and she gets a new B move. This new move might be Light Force where she shoots a light beam straight ahead to stun an opponent from a distance. This is inspired by that cutscene in Ocarina of Time where Zelda shot a light beam at Ganon to hold him down for Link to deliver the final blow.

And Sonic might get those shields Kenshinhan was talking about...

Oh
My
God

How is this kid still here?

 

[flyinfilipino]

There are several points some of you are ignoring as arguable and, instead keep disagreeing with the examples given and stating that disagreement of example as a basis as to why NO B variance should exist. Stop doing that, as that is a logical fallacy. Just because you disagree with the example as being 'worthy' of extra moves, doesn't mean extra moves is also bad because of it.

Points you must contend:
- Sakurai may wish to add more B moves as a way to balance out characters(lack luster) with added recoveries, simultaneous to giving them moves from their origin-games that they do not have in Brawl.

We're just disagreeing with the examples because there's not really an argument here. While you're busy trying to point out logical fallacies, we're still trying to figure out why you deem this "B variance" a necessary, inevitable thing. The arguments you're presenting don't really support that; they're just possibilities. It may or may not happen, but your examples don't exactly point to it either way.

Again, to your first point: why add more B moves to aid recoveries (for example) when you can just fix the one they have? And we don't have to contend to something that "may" happen.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

So, let's put this ugly buisness behind us and talk about potential Shield Bs, shall we?

I think it'd be a mistake to reduce it to shields/reflectors/counters. Not that I have any other specific ideas other than "get off me" type moves (or maybe non-grapple grabs for Samus/Link/etc.), but it should have a decent amount of flexibility just like other moves.

And before anyone suggests it, I wouldn't recommend moving several characters' down-Bs to this command since it'd disable them in the air. Nor would I recommend having it as a second way to execute down-Bs, since it's somewhat redundant and the game might as well just let you do that right out of a shield anyway.

Again, what do you guys think of the Advancing Guard mechanic? How do you think this would be best adapted for Smash since we don't want the game more defensive than it is.

Isn't that perfect shielding?

Somehow just now I got an idea for a character who has to spend like 5 seconds casting various spells that enhance certain moves, such as having his regular shield start reflecting stuff or increasing the range on standard attacks.

 

[Arcadenik]

Source? As for the names, it's still valid, the dog is just called "Dog", that alone shows it's un-importantance. And note how every character that has a, how you say, "simple" name, at least they have some sort of design. Like "R.O.B." has an interesting robot design. It's not super creative, but it's a unique design that you can tell. The Dog is just a simple brown dog that grins. That's it...

If someone was to argue Nintendogs, that arguement can be used against them as well, but the general, more known design for Nintendog is White Labrador. So at least that makes sense.

Oh
My
God

How is this kid still bringing this up?

What about Mr. Game & Watch? He is just a plain old stick figure who originally had no established design and had no established name. You want to know how he got his name? All Sakurai did was put "Mr." in front of "Game & Watch". In fact, his name is simply "Game & Watch" in the Japanese version of Melee/Brawl.

I am beginning to think you are grasping at straws. Not only a character needs to have a name, they got to have a design that people can easily recognize? Well, I will tell you this - when people see a brown dog with black ears and a white muzzle and it is accompanied by a duck, they will immediately know that it is the dog from Duck Hunt, in spite of his relative simple design and a lack of a name. Other than the dog from Duck Hunt, I would like to see a video game character whose design fits this description.

 

[SmashChu]

Oh
My
God

How is this kid still bringing this up?

What about Mr. Game & Watch? He is just a plain old stick figure who originally had no established design and had no established name. You want to know how he got his name? All Sakurai did was put "Mr." in front of "Game & Watch". In fact, his name is simply "Game & Watch" in the Japanese version of Melee/Brawl The characters in the game resembled him, such as the guys from Fire. He also uses moves from the games.

I am beginning to think you are grasping at straws. Not only a character needs to have a name, they got to have a design that people can easily recognize? Well, I will tell you this - when people see a brown dog with black ears and a white muzzle which no one will recognize and it is accompanied by a duck, they will immediately know that it is the dog from Duck Hunt or they wont, because people don't see a duck and a dog and think, OH, Duck Hunt. They see a duck and a dog and ask what game is it from., in spite of his relative simple design and a lack of a name. of course you have to put a duck next to it and hope people get the small reference. Other than the dog from Duck Hunt, I would like to see a video game character whose design fits this description. what description? Looking like a generic dog and a generic duck?

Bold is me.

 

[Arcadenik]

Yes, those generic stick figures you had to save in Fire. And of course, you have to give him all those items (torch, chair, turtle, fish bowl, frying pan, etc.) and hope people get the small references.

If you are trying to suggest that it is not okay for a generic dog to have a duck for people to get the small reference that this dog is from Duck Hunt, well, then it is also not okay for a generic stick figure to have all these items for people to get the small references that this stick figure is from those Game & Watch games. You cannot have it both ways.

I love how you are saying that the Duck Hunt Dog is generic because he is a generic dog with a generic duck when you are purposefully ignoring the obvious: Mr. Game & Watch is generic because he is a generic stick figure with generic items.

Smashchu, I have noticed that your arguments are essentially this: It is okay for (insert Smash fighter here) to (have made up moves, have no names, be generic, etc.) but it is not okay for the Duck Hunt Dog to (have made up moves, have no names, be generic, etc.). Double standard much?

 

[SuperMetroid44]

Oh
My
God

How is this kid still bringing this up?

What about Mr. Game & Watch? He is just a plain old stick figure who originally had no established design and had no established name. You want to know how he got his name? All Sakurai did was put "Mr." in front of "Game & Watch". In fact, his name is simply "Game & Watch" in the Japanese version of Melee/Brawl.

I am beginning to think you are grasping at straws. Not only a character needs to have a name, they got to have a design that people can easily recognize? Well, I will tell you this - when people see a brown dog with black ears and a white muzzle and it is accompanied by a duck, they will immediately know that it is the dog from Duck Hunt, in spite of his relative simple design and a lack of a name. Other than the dog from Duck Hunt, I would like to see a video game character whose design fits this description.

Hell yeah I'm pointing out your flaws, cuz there's too many flaws for that Duck Hunt Dog to be playable, and you can't see it. Like, when you support a character, you also realize the flaws it has which makes the character have less of a chance. Like (Haha ) me with Nintendog, I know it's flaws, but I still support it. With YOU, you don't see any flaws (apparently), and just blindly like "EVERYONE KNOWS DUCK HUNT DOG, HE WILL HAVE A FANTASTIC MOVEST, HE CAN BE IN", etc.

 

[Arcadenik]

It is true that a lot of people know who the Duck Hunt Dog is. It is one of the most recognizable video game characters in Nintendo's history, let alone the video game history. You just don't want to acknowledge that. There is no such thing as bad publicity for the Dog.

Look, if it is possible for R.O.B. to get a fantastic moveset, then it is also possible for the Duck Hunt Dog to get one, too. If it is possible for R.O.B. to even get in Smash without any prior fighting experience, then it is also possible that the Duck Hunt Dog can get in Smash, too. Key word: possible.

That's what I am saying here. There is a possibility that the Duck Hunt Dog can get in Smash and I support its inclusion. I know the odds of that happening is very small but the possibility is still there and I still support it nonetheless. It is just you guys who are being Negative Nancies and saying it is entirely impossible because of this flaw and that flaw and whatever else flaws that go against your personal criteria.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Technically, there's a possibility that anyone can get in Smash. Legal stuff aside, anyway.

Familiarity hasn't been much of a factor for character inclusion. Appeal most certainly has, and the Dog doesn't have it. That's the reason -- whether people are consciously aware of it or not -- why people don't want him in. Has nothing to do with being negative and everything to do with living in the real world.

 

[Shorts]

It is true that a lot of people know who the Duck Hunt Dog is. It is one of the most recognizable video game characters in Nintendo's history.

You're trying to tell me that "duck hunt dog" the videogame character is know by a lot of people? In comparison to the people who don't know him it isn't a lot. Look at casual gamer side. Look at the past twenty years of population who potentially have never played anything below the SNES. I don't feel like this statement is valid in any sense. Not that a character needs to be popular to get into smash. He just isn't that well known. I can name forty characters more well known then him.

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Toad, Bowser Jr., Koopa, Goomba, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Dixie Kong, King K Rool, Yoshi, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, Mewtwo, Mew, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer (Red/Rival), Charizard, Meowth, Deoxys, Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Lucas, Ness, Marth, Lyn, Roy, Ike, Olimar, Captain Falcon, Samus, Ridley, Kirby, King DeDeDe, MetaKnight, GameandWatch, Pit, Little Mac, Issac, Tom Nook, Navi, do I need to continue?

Just.... he is top 50 most recognizable/well know character at best.

 

[gantrain05]

You're trying to tell me that "duck hunt dog" the videogame character is know by a lot of people? In comparison to the people who don't know him it isn't a lot. Look at casual gamer side. Look at the past twenty years of population who potentially have never played anything below the SNES. I don't feel like this statement is valid in any sense. Not that a character needs to be popular to get into smash. He just isn't that well known. I can name forty characters more well known then him.

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Toad, Bowser Jr., Koopa, Goomba, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Dixie Kong, King K Rool, Yoshi, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, Mewtwo, Mew, Lucario, Pokemon Trainer (Red/Rival), Charizard, Meowth, Deoxys, Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Lucas, Ness, Marth, Lyn, Roy, Ike, Olimar, Captain Falcon, Samus, Ridley, Kirby, King DeDeDe, MetaKnight, GameandWatch, Pit, Little Mac, Issac, Tom Nook, Navi, do I need to continue?

Just.... he is top 50 most recognizable/well know character at best.

the duck hunt dog is basically a nintendo icon and is easily more well known than lets see, deoxys, lucas, ness, every fire emblem character, olimar, captain falcon, gameandwatch, issac, tom nook or navi.

but then again maybe your like twelve years old and all your friends would be the same age, but just because the little kiddies don't know who the duck hunt dog is, doesnt mean that most people dont.

don't forget there is a generation of gamers that WEREN'T born on the xbox/wii/ps3............

 

[Jaklub]

Don't forget we have Assist trophies. THIS is where Duck Hunt dog should be.

But I wouldn't be mad if it made it to the character roster.

 

[SmashChu]

Smashchu, I have noticed that your arguments are essentially this: It is okay for (insert Smash fighter here) to (have made up moves, have no names, be generic, etc.) but it is not okay for the Duck Hunt Dog to (have made up moves, have no names, be generic, etc.). Double standard much?

NOPE

It's not a double standard. You just never got what I said.

 

[Arcadenik]

Anyway.... changing subjects since we keep going around in circles with the Duck Hunt Dog debate/argument. We need to just agree to disagree like flyinflipino suggested a few pages ago.

So, since I don't own a PS3 and I cannot buy Marvel vs. Capcom 3 without owning a PS3, I cannot exactly form an informed opinion about the game. But from what I have seen so far, it really does look very good and fun to play - and of course, I am very happy with the inclusions of Arthur, Amaterasu, and Haggar the most. Did anyone here get MvC3 yet? Are you loving it or hating it? Why or why not? Have any ideas you got from the game that you would like to see in SSB4?

 

[Fawfulcopter]

So, if the general consensus on Laughing Dog is that divided, what'sthe public's opinion on Muddy Mole?

Also, I really have nowhere else to discuss this, so I'll just leave this here;
Cocoron is the best NES game ever made, Yes or Yes?

 

[Arcadenik]

Muddy Mole?! I would love for him to get in Smash! Have you played his game, Mole Mania, on the original Game Boy? I did and I thought it was a good game. Nintendo needs to release it on the 3DS Virtual Console and make a 3DS sequel!

I do think that Muddy Mole is more likely than the Duck Hunt Dog but that doesn't bother me. Sure, it would be fun to have both but realistically, I know both are not that likely but I think Muddy Mole is at least more likely than the Dog. He's got "appeal", right?

 

[Jaklub]

Never heard of Muddy Mole

'nuff said

 

[Big-Cat]

So, since I don't own a PS3 and I cannot buy Marvel vs. Capcom 3 without owning a PS3, I cannot exactly form an informed opinion about the game. But from what I have seen so far, it really does look very good and fun to play - and of course, I am very happy with the inclusions of Arthur, Amaterasu, and Haggar the most. Did anyone here get MvC3 yet? Are you loving it or hating it? Why or why not? Have any ideas you got from the game that you would like to see in SSB4?

You know it's available on the 360, right? That's what I have.

I got it yesterday and have been playing mostly in training mode to get the feel of the game. The game has a strong execution emphasis, but I can imagine the Simple Mode (never gonna use it) is a great way to just jump in while providing an incentive to play the normal way.

I'm loving the game a lot. I even got the Strategy Guide from BradyGames. If you're gonna get a guide, get this. It goes into hardcore information like frame data, and there's even a glossary for terms to know, and there are some combos for you to learn from. Overall, it's a great book.

And if you're looking for new playstyles that can be imported into Smash, this is a great place to look for some. Chris plays like I'd imagine Anthony Higgs to play and if Ridley was as big as Sentinel, I'd be fine.

Right now I have two teams: She-Hulk/Deadpool/Amaterasu and C. Viper w/ Fuerte colors/ Hsien-Ko/Trish. I've been unsure though about the latter team. Trish provides traps for Viper and/or a solid projectile while Chris can provide great chip damage with one of his assists.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Jaklub

See? The poor mole worked hard to fight wildlife and solve puzzles to save his family from a crazed farmer named Jinbe and few people remember him. The trolling dog did nothing but fetch ducks and laugh at you and many people remember him. No such thing as bad publicity for the Dog. Hating and loving to hate the Dog is what keeps him remembered since 1985.

@ Kuma

Oh, I already knew about the 360 version. I just wanted the PS3 version because I wanted the PS3. Sure, both consoles got Batman: Arkham Asylum/City, Marvel vs. Capcom 3, Super Street Fighter IV, but only the PS3 got God of War III and 3D Dot Game Heroes and I want them, too.

And this is what I was looking for - new playstyle ideas from MvC3 that could be used by potential SSB4 newcomers.

 

[Big-Cat]

One style I'd love to see is to emphasize Trish's Peekaboo attack. What that attack does is that she sets a a circular electric trap that goes invisible. Anyone trapped in it is left wide open to combos.

 

[Arcadenik]

Interesting... so, this Peekaboo move sets something that has a similar effect as the Pitfall item that traps characters and make them vulnerable to combos? Did I get this right?

Because if I did get that right, I think Muddy Mole could benefit greatly with that playstyle. Muddy could set a trap by digging up holes (but they are quickly rendered invisible) on the ground. Characters who stumble into this hole are trapped and are vulnerable to combos and smashes. Remember, digging is Muddy's main shtick in Mole Mania.

 

[Big-Cat]

You're close. Trish's Peekaboo sets an aerial trap that locks the opponent in the air. Then her Hopscotch attack sets a trap on ground. Anyone that passes it on ground or air will get hit by it.

 

[Arcadenik]

Ahh, so, what I just described for Muddy Mole is more similar to Trish's Hopscotch move.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah, but your idea pertains strictly to the ground. Hopscotch has a column range.

For more information, look here:
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Marvel_vs_Capcom_3
Click on a character for an overview on each character.

 

[Arcadenik]

Hey, I visited this website the other day! It is now on my favorites.

The reason my idea was strictly on the ground is because Muddy is a mole and moles dig in the ground. But if this idea could have a column range, then maybe Muddy could tackle a character in the air and dive toward the ground to bury them. Think that could work?

 

[Big-Cat]

Then it'd have a different use. What you're talking about is using it strictly as an anti-air, not a trap/zoning device. Don't get me wrong, your reasoning makes sense. Does Muddy Mole have little assistants in his game? If so, it could easily function like Hopscotch.

 

[SuperMetroid44]

Source?

Still didn't answer this Arcadenik, tell me where's your source that says Duck Hunt Dog is very rememberable to lots of people.

 

[Moogi]

Still didn't answer this Arcadenik, tell me where's your source that says Duck Hunt Dog is very rememberable to lots of people.

I'd quote the post mentioning that this argument ended, but I'm too lazy to do so a la iPod.

Anyway... *listens in on Muddy Mole conversation due to curiosity of minor characters no one knows about*

 

[flyinfilipino]

Still didn't answer this Arcadenik, tell me where's your source that says Duck Hunt Dog is very rememberable to lots of people.

Did you really have to ask?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_(Duck_Hunt)

It's Wikipedia, but yeah. You really have to either A) accept the fact that the dog is a well-known gaming icon or B) find some other reason to argue against the character.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

I played it on vGBX. Does that count?

I'm also thinking a digging moveset; that laying a trap idea is good. How about digging and throwing rocks and dirt behind him, or digging under an opponent for a pitfall effect?
Maybe a Down B where he dives into the ground and you can control him for a short time ivisible, underground, and he'll come out with an attack wherever you navigated him to. Think the Pokemon move Dig.
Of course, we can't forget he can't focus entirely on digging. Make that the main theme, yes, but JUST digging would get stale.
He'd throw bombs and/or cabbages(Possibly one move that's mostly one but has a chance of the other?), use his huge mole claws for attacking, do a nice jumping uppercut with his claws(He can clearly jump, as seen in Mole Mania), maybe grab an opponent and bury them underground as a down throw?

Also, entrance would clearly be digging up from the ground.


Also, yeah, 'not popular' for Laughing Dog? He's famously annoying. Yes, he is VERY memorable, and several people are familiar with him.
Either find another reason against him(To recount, you've used 'he can't have a moveset'(Which is wrong) and 'he's not popular'(also wrong. You got anything else?)

Finally, I've got an idea that's probably been said before, but now I'll make it a point of discussion.
What if Mega Man(Assuming it's classic, and he gets in) has a move where he steals a power with a grab-thing so as to replace his Mega Buster with a power from his game based on the character? What characters would give what powers, veteran or potential newcomer, based on his copy moves from all 14 main Mega Man games with new robot masters?(1-10, Bass, Forte:Mirai Kara no Chosensha, and Powered Up, giving a total 98, plus any misc powers, like the Rush Adapters, Balloon and Grapple Hook, Mega Ball, Rush Bike, etc.)

Mario-Atomic Fire
Jigglypuff-Noise Crush
Marth-Triple Blade
Toon Link-Quick Boomerang
Zelda-Jewel Sattelite
Wario-Rush Bike
Pit-Centaur Arrow

Tetra-Remote Mine
Samurai Goroh-Yamato Spear
Little Mac-Hard Knuckle

And so forth.