[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[flyinfilipino]

I don't know much about the MvC series myself, but if I had to guess at some of the criteria based on a couple of the characters, they'd include:

- More females (She-Hulk, X-23, Trish)
- Fan favorites (Sentinel?)
- Villains for the heroes (Wesker)
- Obscure but awesome (Arthur)
- Either being really goofy or being really badass (Felicia's pretty goofy, Chris is pretty badass, Deadpool's both)
- Overall, just being really diverse

 

[Kenshinhan]

First off, this is the internet. No one has to play nice, no one has to bold/underline their main points because you can't find them, and no one wants to read long-winded posts like yours.

This isn't about being nice. This is about making yourself look mature, logical, and not lashing out at someone with petty insults because they just so happen to disagree with you and your points with logical reasoning and examples.

Anyone that's willing to say "NO" before they are willing to understand what they're saying "NO" to, is not doing a very good job of appearing educated on the debate. When I write with paragraph separation and response to each individual, you can easily see that each point is contained within that paragraph. If you can't get passed reading paragraphs because they seem daunting when one forum posts has such a huge block of text, then it makes the Smash community look lazy when it comes to argument, because they don't want to read long posts that actually address separate points.

Second, I'm asking you to provide examples for your ideas. Not the same crappy Sonic idea (and I'll explain why it's crappy in a second), new ones. For like eight or so characters. You do this and people can actually point out what's wrong with your concept, possibly leading to a non-sucky solution.

Sonic was just an example. His comparison to Mario is something that everyone makes in the video game world. As such, it would surely be in Sakurai's best interest to emulate Sonic's previous abilities, that are akin to Mario's previous abilities in older games.

Rather than re-write current moves that exist in newer Sonic games, the necessity to facilitate new B moves can be inferred, with Sonic serving as a single example. This concept of varying B moves can spread across to other characters. Therefore, the concept alone is what is going to be pioneered, and has no dependancy on solely Sonic.

Third, the problem with your Sonic suggestion is that there's a lack of consistency. When you do Falcon Kick on the ground and in the air, it's still Falcon Kick. The direction changes, but it's still the same move. Same with Samus' missiles and Dancing Blade, though those have more variance to them.

Sonic's Spin Dash and the bubble shield from Sonic 3 are completely different in terms of effect and aesthetics; one is a charge-then-launch, one rockets you downward in a water bubble. There's no connection and it's disorienting.

See, this is something you raise as more of a point, but it's more of a specific counter-point to the suggested Bubble Shield B variance rather than the varying B concept as a whole. I can wholly concede that point, as it is a good one. I'm not tied down to the opinion Sonic MUST have Bubble Shield jump or, that Sonic's Bubble Shield jump MUST be a Down B variance. However, if it were to be implemented, it certainly would be an aerial B move of some kind, and since it goes Downward and then Up, one could argue that it should have Direction Down and/or Up to similate this, regardless of what Sonic's Ground B move is.

Lastly, the Sonic's spin-dash would take holding down and Rapid Tap B just like in the game it was invented. (different button, but same concept) This would be difficult to confuse with using a single Down B tap with the bubble shield bounce in mid-air.

There's a post a few pages back from a guy named BirthNote. He suggests DK be able to do his Jungle Beat shockwave in the air with his Down+B and I mentioned that it's a good idea. If you can figure out why, you can probably figure out some practical ideas for your concept. Get back to me then.

I did read that, and I would wholly agree to that being a positive suggestion for the game developers.

...Developers just happen to be the only ones who can implement gameplay changes based off of that knowledge. Well, hacking aside, anyway. Lucky SmashBoards.

Developers are the first and foremost end-all be-all of what gets dropped and added to the game based off of testing. We can always theorize as avid video gamers, but we really have no programming or balance expertise as an individual. It takes massive opinions and thorough testing to find balance and comfort to gaming as a whole. Being that the case, why are we so quick to cut down a concept at the stem when all that you can do is modify the idea or point out what specifically you don't like about it with reason? (as you did with the Sonic example)

---
About MvC3:
I just want my Black Suited Spider-Man to be stronger/better than regular Spider-Man. Much like Evil Ryu is pretty much better than Ryu in most SF games they're both in.

I'd also appreciate a Phoenix character of Jean Grey. Although many might regard her as too overpowered and unfitting in the crossover universe.

 

[flyinfilipino]

What's with the starfish eyeball guy? What's his deal?

Shuma-Gorath is a nemesis of Doctor Strange, another kind-of-obscure Marvel hero.

I'd also appreciate a Phoenix character of Jean Grey. Although many might regard her as too overpowered and unfitting in the crossover universe.

Phoenix is in MvC3.

 

[Big-Cat]

"Mutually exclusive" refers to two things that cannot co-exist. I was telling you to edit, son! It's like this kid I knew way back when, he'd mix up "on accident" and "on purpose." Got in a lot of unnecessary trouble, that kid.

Okay, so I misused the term. I stillemphasized that the two are different concepts, not synonymous with each other.

Note that I'm not arguing against complexity in itself, since quite a few of those popular games could be defined as such (maybe not by your own definition, but I certainly feel Pokemon and Mario Kart have a good amount of depth to them). I'm arguing against anything that could discourage new players from enjoying the game. Adding several new moves per character for a player to learn -- moves that are being described as particularly context-sensitive AND completely different, mind you -- is a no-no.

I know Pokemon is chuck full of depth, or there wouldn't be a competitive community for it, but where is the depth in Mario Kart? Not to say there isn't, but I'm highly curious.

And I fail what's wrong with context-sensitive specials. If people can wrap around their heads that certain attacks like DK and Peach's Down B can't be done in the air, that Samus has a tilt and smash side B, and that specials can vary on air and ground, I doubt people will have difficulty learning that certain specials are air only or there are tilt and Smash spcials.

Really, it just sounds like you don't want change, and you'll just argue against it for whatever reason.

At this time, I'd like to mention that vanilla is by far the most popular flavor of ice cream.

Not to say that there's no purpose for the rocky roads and coffees of the world, but it IS selfish to demand that vanilla be more like them. And yes, Nintendo is the only company that regularly provides quality vanilla. Bless 'em.

WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID?! I just tried to make the difference between accessibility and simplicity better understood. Sales have nothing to do with what I said. My desire to see some features from other fighters in Smash has nothing to with what I said.

And when we get down to it, not even Sakurai is looking to make Smash as simplified as the Wii series.

Of course, I think there was a possibility of taking Smash Bros. in a more casual-gaming direction. For example, we could make the art style simpler or make it possible to use Miis. However, with the various titles that the Wii was to offer, I felt that people were looking for something different. That’s the reason I decided in very early stages of development that the Wii pointer and motion movements would not be a primary feature of the game.

http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol2_page1.jsp

 

[Tyshy Hyrule]

First i it would be cool if they let you download some of your own songs to put on stages,made a better stage builders,let replays more than just 3mins,it would be even cooler if we can create our own character costumes (No hacks)

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Shuma-Gorath is a nemesis of Doctor Strange, another kind-of-obscure Marvel hero.

Oh, I think I've heard of Doctor Strange. Well not really, more like vaguely acquainted via a not-quite-similar character from Venture Bros. Dormammu is from the same series, right?

I know Pokemon is chuck full of depth, or there wouldn't be a competitive community for it, but where is the depth in Mario Kart? Not to say there isn't, but I'm highly curious.

Stuff like drifting/tricks, proper use of items, etc. Of course now I play exclusively in teams with my family, so that has a lot to do with it. It's a completely different game and if you get the chance, I really recommend you play it that way. Way better than free-for-all.

And I fail what's wrong with context-sensitive specials. If people can wrap around their heads that certain attacks like DK and Peach's Down B can't be done in the air, that Samus has a tilt and smash side B, and that specials can vary on air and ground, I doubt people will have difficulty learning that certain specials are air only or there are tilt and Smash spcials.

Really, it just sounds like you don't want change, and you'll just argue against it for whatever reason.

You might wanna read my response to the other guy, it may surprise you!

WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID?! I just tried to make the difference between accessibility and simplicity better understood. Sales have nothing to do with what I said. My desire to see some features from other fighters in Smash has nothing to with what I said.

One, I'm eating ice cream right now. Two, it's a rather simple analogy that I wanted to segue into. It wasn't directly a "ooh sales money" thing so much as a "you guys are annoying the crap out of me with your insistence on more complexity."

And when we get down to it, not even Sakurai is looking to make Smash as simplified as the Wii series.

When have I ever said Wii series-level simplicity? Smash is more Pokemon/Mario Kart level, that's why I mentioned those two. It really should be as big as them, and accessibility seems to be the major stumbling block.

 

[Big-Cat]

Let me ask you this, how do you propose it be made more accessible? Remember that you risk alienating the established fanbase with any possible changes.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

If you're looking for an immediate answer, I don't have one. Sorry. Thankfully it's not my job (or anyone else's here) to come up with one ever.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yet you're always preaching about accessibility. You say my ideas go against it. I'd like to what yours would be for a change. Otherwise, you're doing nothing but spouting unconstructive criticism. At least I'm using these ideas and discussions as a base for future game ideas, if I ever get there.

 

[Shorts]

Toise and Kuma argue like an old married couple.

"One of these days toise!"

hah. You to make me chuckle. X3

 

[Fawfulcopter]

Just want to pitch into the adding more B moves conversation-
Adding several B moves to each character is a bad idea; However, each SSB game thus far has introduced a new Special mechanic; Melee added side Bs, and Brawl added Final Smashes. I think there should be at least one new type of special move added, whether it be a normal button+B combo(Diagonal B, Guard B, Grab B, etc.), a slightly more complicated mechanic(Dash B, anyone?) or a super move to one-up the Final Smash with an even mor powerful attack.
But the limit on new B moves should be ONE. I'm personally thinking that Guard+Special would be good, especially for all the characters with Shield and Deflectors that can be moved to that spot, which I think should, much like Up B, be usually reserved for Shielding attacks.

Also, as for that Sonic problem, let me resolve it for you. Here's a Sonic moveset with 6 special moves(B, Up B, Down B, Side B, Final Smash and my hypothetical Guard B).
B-Homing Attack(Same, but instead of going down if there's no enemy in range, it goes forward, like in his games.)
Up B-Blue Tornado(From Sonic Heroes, spins around a Tornado he's formed for an upward boost. Can do damage to foes, and if beyond range of damage, still blows foes upwards.)
Guard B-Insta-Shield(From Sonic 3, just a quick squat while an invisible shield, seen only by its shine, appears around him for a moment. Can be used in midair for a slight boost. Does little damage if touching opponent.)
Down B-Spin Dash(Same as Spin Dash Charge)
Side B-Shockwave(From Sonic Battle, spins in place for a moment and a medium-sized shockwave moves across the ground a shot distance in front of him, doing good damage. Really good damage is done if the enemy touches Sonic while his spinning for this move.
Final Smash-Super Sonic(Same)

See? Represents his newer powers(Homing Attack, Blue Tornado, Shockwave) and his classic ones(Spin Dash, Super Sonic, Insta-Shield) equally.
and TBH, I think the Speed Shoes would be a better item, and the Sonic 3 Shields are kinda unimportant and not really translatable into SSB. Maybe when you attack with the insta shield there's a small chance it will do Fire, Electric or Water damage.

 

[DekuBoy]

No Fantastic 4 is a mess. They pretty much MADE Marvel and instead we get one of their minor enemies to replace them. Fantastic. Oh, and no Mega Man. And why have two Dr Strange villains and not the man himself?

 

[Fawfulcopter]

Well Super Skrull is leader of the Skrulls, a race very popular as F4 villains, and this one has the powers of all for F4 members, so it's really more for gameplay than anything. I think that's kinda the theme here; they were going more with characters fun to play as than the really important ones(But they did keep the REALLY important ones).
Same logic goes with Mega Man; oh sure, he's their mascot, but nobody ever played as him, and nobody ever would. It kinda makes sense(Although Mario kinda sucks in SSB; should they remove him?)
Also, one of the Fantastic Four members DOES appear in MvC3.

SPOILERS if you haven't heard or read the news about the F4

Spoiler

Human Torch bought the big one(For a while, anyway), and Spidey got on the team in his place.
Speaking of, does anyone remember the MvC3 Twitter rumor that ended up being true? Well, it said Torch was left out due to porblems with his flames, but I think it's because the Marvel execs didn't want the character they're about to kill off added into the game coming out a few weeks later. Then to make it fair, they also removed a character from Capcom's side, and they felt Frank West was A: Least far along in development, B: Most expendable or C: Most boring.

 

[i8pie]

Fantastic 4:
(EDIT: Fawful already said so...) Thing would essentially be the same thing as Hulk, Mr. Fantastic would play similarly to Dhalsim (without the yoga fire) but only Invisible Woman would really be unique. They decided to use Skrull since he has all their powers anyway. Also, the Dr. (Doom) is in.

Megaman will probably be released as DLC and wasn't included in favour of Amaterasu (who uses a weapon switch system), Dante (who has 40+ moves) and Arthur (who just spams projectiles and does what MM would do if in-game). Honestly, I'd rather have three new characters than one old boring character (face it, MM in MvC 1 and 2 wasn't that great).

For Dr. Strange though, I don't have a clue though, nor have I actually read his comics. I played Marvel Ultimate Alliance and to be honest, maybe he doesn't fit the hero theme (he uses magic, I think). I don't think anyone really knows though.

EDIT: Way too slow D:
Frank West was going to take too long ro mke so he was dropped. Though they have all the time they need if he's going to be DLC.

 

[Kenshinhan]

One thing I'm willing to bet: If there is a SSB4, there WILL be more B moves whether we like it or not. It's inevitable because of the track record.

I think people need to think about what more B moves is before they start saying it's bad, because there are more b varying moves in Brawl than in Melee, and no one is complaining about their complexity. This is because they were done for only a few characters and only when the moves that varying on b aren't that different from their non-varried Dir+B, and execute exactly how they look on screen.

It really does make sense that Sakurai takes it a step further and adds a few more as it suits the character. As long as the execution feels like what the moves looks it's not going to hurt the game.

 

[i8pie]

No one is complaining about complexity because there is no complexity in extending moves by a couple of inputs. Press side B to do Monkey Flip. Press B again to kick or you can wait and grab. If you grab, you can press up to meteor smash if in the air or anything else to just hit them. The only character with a more complicated Special is Marth's Dancing Sword and, yes you're right, there aren't complaints.

And, well of course something is going to change. Some reviews I remember two to three years ago complained a bit about not much change. Sakurai wouldn't be dumb enough to put no changes at all (in fact, when he makes sequels, he tries to make them different experiences; he never makes them for the sake of making a sequel).

But it doesn't mean it's going to be an extremely drastic change. What Fawful said was a good suggestion as that wouldn't be too difficult to implement or use. The Shield B idea works better because it wouldn't exactly be limiting any casual's abilities (even they can shield) and it's not removing/limiting any space since there are no inputs in that position (aside from Grab, which is Shield + A anyway). Plus it gives more people options on defense and this already changes a whole lot of things for characters with crap dodge rolls.

 

[Arcadenik]

Side Special moves in Melee and Final Smashes in Brawl. What is next? Special Shield moves? I think that would be pretty cool. All characters would have only one Special Shield move. To use a Special Shield move, one would need to press the shield button (that's the L or R button) and the B button at the same time. That does not sound too complicated for the casual players to understand but I think it might really change the tier positions for many characters in tourney play.

Here are some ideas for Special Shield moves.

Mario and Luigi get the Rainbow Star item from both Super Mario Galaxy games. A ? block appears above them and they automatically jump and hit it and the star pops out from it. Why does it take too long for them to actually get the power-up? That's because they would be invincible like they would with the Starman item but they can now inflict damage to the opponents just by touching them! So you cannot just abuse this move as much as you want to and the opponents still have a small window of opportunity to stop Mario or Luigi from getting the star.

Peach gets the Heart item from Mario Kart: Double Dash!! where the hearts negate projectiles and she is able to return the projectiles by pressing Shield+Special. This move would work best in matches with items turned on and against characters who use projectiles (ex. Ness, Samus, Link, etc.)

Pit gets the Protective Crystal item from the older Kid Icarus games where the two crystals will encircle Pit and cause damage to his opponents on contact and reduces the amount of damage Pit gets by half (ex. Samus's fully charged shot inflicts 26% damage but with Pit's special shield activated, he would receive only 13% damage)

Zelda's Nayru's Love becomes her Special Shield move and she gets a new B move. This new move might be Light Force where she shoots a light beam straight ahead to stun an opponent from a distance. This is inspired by that cutscene in Ocarina of Time where Zelda shot a light beam at Ganon to hold him down for Link to deliver the final blow.

And Sonic might get those shields Kenshinhan was talking about...

 

[Big-Cat]

Shield Specials would be very broken if they're not handled right. The idea for Pit's is very close to Rose in SSF4's Soul Satellite and that has a balancing issue (you can't beat it on wakeup which has been fixed in AE). Not only that, but I think you'd start falling into "Make-Up" territory. I think a better concept would be the Advancing Guard seen in Versus titles: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Marvel_vs_Capcom_3/Systems/Defensive_Actions:_Advancing_Guard

As the article states, this is also known as a Push Block. While in shield stun, press A+B to push the opponent back. The question now comes as to how you adapt this for Smash. I suppose one way to do this would be to introduce the Super Meter system and let you perform this technique at the cost of some meter.

Again, I'm fine with more specials, but it shouldn't expand any more than aerial exclusive attacks (like Ibuki's Kunai). After that, and I think it gets gratuitous.

Finally, as I've said before, Sonic is meant to be a mixup character. The only thing that I think should be done for adding moves is if they add to his mixup game.

 

[Kenshinhan]

I agree with KumaOso about Sonic being mix-up. But at the same time I sincerely hope they can incorperate some of Sonic's old power-up abilities to facilitate that mix-up. I could see Sonic starting an air combo with his Fair and then finishing it off with a Forward Tap B Aerial (the Fire Shield Rush Attack) for KB and a finishing Kill at ~ 110% vs lightweights. Note that if they do add such an attack it wouldn't replace his current Forward B, his current Forward B could be tap and charge or rapid tap to simulate how he actually moves in that technique. OR, the Fire attack Shield could be a continuation Foward B after his first Forward B (his current one)

As for Fawfulcopters' B+Guard. It's an interesting concept that would compliment the B moves to Shield Grabbing. We already can attack out of our Shields with B moves but this would change things up for certain character's B moves. This is another way I hadn't thought of, of varying B moves, and I like the concept. His example of Sonic's B+Guard is a good idea of how to implement Sonic's Insta-Shield, however I would definitely want to say it should only be done in the Air (and so instead of Air Dodging while B does nothing, Sonic does his B+Guard attackl! Pretty neat.) He hasn't usually had the Insta-Shield on the ground though.

I think Advance Guard could be something new to Brawl? Well, what about just simply smashing the Thumb-stick in the direction you want to Shield-Advance? Melee already introduced tilting the Thumb-stick to cover different parts of your body with it. This is a far more simplistic and less fine-tuned movement demanding technique. Kids are more apt to slam a thumb stick than gently titlt it when they're under pressure and are shielding. Although that's what rolling is... Hmm.

Edit: What about Smashing the thumb-stick forward or backward,+Shielding at the right time causing a guard advance? Kind of like Power-Shielding was, but this could be more lenient in frame buffer length (like ground teching should be) I can more easily ground tech in Melee than Brawl after not playing either game for a month. I don't know why that is. This is just a suggestion and I can see why many people don't want to add Guard Advance in the next SSB4. It would make the game seem like Soul Calibur II/III with their Guard Impact System to some extent.

@SSF4:AE Several hard-core gamers or tourney players are upset at the addition of Oni(Shin) Akuma and Evil Ryu. These two characters have traditionally been OP on purpose. Lastly, I've only ever seen those two characters, as far as the SF series by itself is, in the Alpha sub-series. Maybe they should've just taken them out of SSF4:AE and made a SFAlpha 4 with them in it? The Alpha 4 system would've been more closely related to the Alpha series, but with Ultras and FA'ing in.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Yet you're always preaching about accessibility. You say my ideas go against it. I'd like to what yours would be for a change. Otherwise, you're doing nothing but spouting unconstructive criticism. At least I'm using these ideas and discussions as a base for future game ideas, if I ever get there.

Hey, you love TVTropes, right?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlecl8xukzuauw1

You've said this to me before and I vaguely recall giving you the same response. Yes, it sucks that I don't have any ideas of my own today, but it's not my fault you can't deal with "unconstructive" criticism.

You don't like it? Then stop posting lousy ideas. Surprised you don't call out everyone else when they criticize you too.

 

[Kenshinhan]

It's one thing to criticize someone's idea. But, if you're going to do so you point out why with logic, and you build upon it with an alternative solution.

That sentence above pretty much describes what critical reading is in college level education, and the conclusion of an argumentative essay. I understand we're not all in college level but, they teach this in H.S. to some extent on debate teams and in debate classes.

I mean really, it's tough to take someone seriously when they criticize an idea with little to no supporting evidence, and then don't give any clue as to what's a better way to handle it. You can say "I don't like your idea because it's too complex." But then you are now obligated to point out why it's too complex, and, rebut any of their rebuttals that counter-argue the complexity, since that seems to be the 'enemy' of accessibility.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

You know, I asked you quite a few times to show me some examples of your idea instead of just saying "I have logic and evidence on my side. You, sir, have the boorish manners of a Yalie!"

Like seriously, any examples beyond the Sonic one. It's not hard, son.

 

[Kenshinhan]

You know, I asked you quite a few times to show me some examples of your idea instead of just saying "I have logic and evidence on my side. You, sir, have the boorish manners of a Yalie!"

Like seriously, any examples beyond the Sonic one. It's not hard, son.

Why are examples so important for you at this point in time, when the complexity of the actual execution of varying B moves was the point of argument? Examples won't illustrate anything but another argument on the examples themselves. You can see evidence of this in this thread a few posts back where someone showed that varying B moves were okay as long as the moves themselves didn't differ too much when they have relating B move + Direction.

I can give you examples, though, since you seem to tied down to them. It sounds to me like you want examples given to open up the door to arguing why B variance is bad, when really, you should just argue that the examples themselves are bad. The best examples of new moves to varying B moves are given based off of knowledge of the origin-games of the characters. I have little to no knowledge of a vast majority of the casts' prior gaming-power history, ergo I've given examples on Sonic and Mario since those are the only ones I'm familiar with, who have moves that aren't in Smash.

Mario Ground Pound: Tap-Hold Down B (aerial only)
Mario Tatsu: Rapid Tap Down B (aerial and ground)

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I don't know why I bother. You still seem to think that I've been saying variance is bad despite showing examples of how the game already does this.

I'm asking you to provide examples because the detailed execution of the concept is far more important than the idea by itself. This is such a basic design concept that I'm not even sure why you'd question it, unless it turned out that you actually had no clue how to implement it beyond two characters, so you'd rather hide behind a vague description that sounds good on paper. Hey, look at that.

Anyway:

Mario Ground Pound: Tap-Hold Down B (aerial only)
- This would be fine if it weren't for the fact that it completely disables FLUDD (or hypothetically, Mario Tornado) in the air. If the input was tapping down while charging FLUDD in the air, it'd be far more practical. Or make it a standard attack instead. Not particularly interesting as Yoshi and Bowser already do this (and they did it first, even in Mario games).

Mario Tatsu: Rapid Tap Down B (aerial and ground)
- You have to describe what a "Mario Tatsu" is.

 

[Kenshinhan]

I don't know why I bother. You still seem to think that I've been saying variance is bad despite showing examples of how the game already does this.

What would give me this idea? Oh, because a few pages back you were adamantly saying that b variance was bad. Was it because of the examples of Sonic? That's what I'm talking about when I say knocking an entire idea because the examples were bad. Don't do that. Otherwise, if you agree it's not too complex now, then I apologize for misconstruing your point to wanting examples.

I'm asking you to provide examples because the detailed execution of the concept is far more important than the idea by itself. This is such a basic design concept that I'm not even sure why you'd question it, unless it turned out that you actually had no clue how to implement it beyond two characters, so you'd rather hide behind a vague description that sounds good on paper. Hey, look at that.

Okay, so I can see that you've moved on from the initial argument and want to talk specifically about examples. That's all well and good except for the fact that I can only provide examples of powers that I KNOW of in origin-games for each character. I'm not going to go out of my way to research Pitt and Kid Icarus to provide examples of MORE stuff he has in that game that wasn't in Brawl.

Anyway:

Mario Ground Pound: Tap-Hold Down B (aerial only)
- This would be fine if it weren't for the fact that it completely disables FLUDD (or hypothetically, Mario Tornado) in the air. If the input was tapping down while charging FLUDD in the air, it'd be far more practical. Or make it a standard attack instead. Not particularly interesting as Yoshi and Bowser already do this (and they did it first, even in Mario games).

Mario Tatsu: Rapid Tap Down B (aerial and ground)
- You have to describe what a "Mario Tatsu" is.

The word 'tatsu' is an abbr of tatsumaki, which is the Japanese name for tornado. This is what Mario Tornado is also referred to as, which was available in SSB, SSBM, but taken out of Brawl as a B move for FLUDD, and made into a mini-version of itself for Mario's current Dair. They kind of combined his Dair from Melee with his Tornado from Melee into his Brawl Dair.

Seeing as they replaced his Down B from Melee-> Brawl with FLUDD, and no one likes FLUDD as much as his tornado, it's reasonable to assume that Down B would be changed back to Mario Tornado, and Down-HOLD B (aerial only) Could be his Ground pound. (Which yes, he stole/learnt from Yoshi)

So, in the air, Tap Down B is always Tornado, and until you Tap HOLD, it's Tornado. Once you Tap HOLD (in air only) It's a Mario Ground Pound. Pretty simple. Meanwhile, DOWN B on the ground is always Mario Tornado, with rapid tapping making him rise. (Just like in the air)

Edit: If you really like FLUDD, then you could say that to charge FLUDD it's Tap-Hold Forward B (button release stops the charging animation) And once it's fully charged Tap-Hold Forward B releases it. His cape meanwhile is always Tap Forward B, and will always come out if you're not holding B down(to execute FLUDD). FLUDD animation is a Forward Jet of water and thus, it is better simulated with a forward B hold mechanic.

 

[SmashChu]

So, in the air, Tap Down B is always Tornado, and until you Tap HOLD, it's Tornado. Once you Tap HOLD (in air only) It's a Mario Ground Pound. Pretty simple. Meanwhile, DOWN B on the ground is always Mario Tornado, with rapid tapping making him rise. (Just like in the air)

Edit: If you really like FLUDD, then you could say that to charge FLUDD it's Tap-Hold Forward B (button release stops the charging animation) And once it's fully charged Tap-Hold Forward B releases it. His cape meanwhile is always Tap Forward B, and will always come out if you're not holding B down(to execute FLUDD). FLUDD animation is a Forward Jet of water and thus, it is better simulated with a forward B hold mechanic.

The bold is why this will be terrible. We don't need "Tap hold," whatever it is.

I'm not sure why we need to add moves. The characters all have 4 unique moves which isn't bad (characters in fighting games have about this). Even still, there was a bit of a struggle, I'm sure, to come up with 4 moves.

 

[Kenshinhan]

Uhh, we already have Tap Hold B moves. Ike's Side B is an example. DeDeDe's tricky Up B is a Tap Hold, and upon release he stops his Upward ascent (after a certain point) and free-falls. The tap hold is in the thumb stick however with a directional change to down.

No one complains about those moves. They're also not hard to differentiate from tap-holding and just tapping or even rapid tapping. Like I keep saying, such mechanics exist in simple games like Mario Party. So how would that be complex again?

Adding more B moves is inevitable. Regardless if you think we have enough, it's going to happen based on Sakurai's track record from Melee-Brawl. From Complex->Simple, he still added more B moves(Be it variance, hold, tap hold, rapid tap, continuation, etc) Okay?

 

[flyinfilipino]

Yeah, Sakurai tends to emphasize the fact that each character has just 4 Special Moves. Even when the B move has a different effect depending on where/how you execute it, it's essentially the same move (Samus's Homing/Super Missle, Falcon's ground/aerial Falcon Kick, Diddy's Monkey Flip). Adding more inputs to do completely different moves isn't necessarily harmful, but it sounds like added complexity for complexity's sake. They don't need to necessarily be made into Special Moves; what if they could simply be incorporated into the non-Special moveset instead?

EDIT: And now you just seem to have accepted your predictions as inevitable. That's fine, I guess.

You wouldn't happen to go to NCSU, would you?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

What would give me this idea? Oh, because a few pages back you were adamantly saying that b variance was bad.

Let me clarify what I said before:

Special move variance as seen in the current Smash Bros. games (Samus' missiles, Falcon Kick, Monkey Flip, Dancing Blade, etc.) is good. These are just slight variations on the same move or follow-ups to combo-based moves.

Special move variance as detailed by all two of your ideas is bad. From what you're saying, subtle differences in either context or execution should have wildly different effects. To make it worse, you're using terms that aren't self-explanatory without describing them. Rapid tap hold tap whatever hold rapid tap hold hold tap.

There's a reason why most people aren't digging your idea so far.


On another note, who came up with special shielding? Props to that guy, I like it.

 

[Kenshinhan]

The transition of SSB -> SSBM -> SSBB emphasizes already that the addition of tilts, which, differ greatly from Smashes of the same Direction, weren't too complex enough for the majority of Smashers.

SSB had no A-tilts. SSBM introduced A-tilts that differed greatly from A smashes. No one had a problem with this. SSBB even continued these A-tilts differing greatly from A-smashes.

It is agreed upon that activating tilts instead of smashes, or visa-versa, is a harder mechanics of gameplay to master than simply Rapid Tap, Tap, and Tap-Hold. (These two-word references to B button pressing -are- self explanatory, and if you cannot see that, explain why they aren't.)

Because Brawl seems like a simplified version of Melee, and A-tilts were kept in and agreed upon as four extra moves that were fine even though they differ from corresponding smashes, it's reasonable to conclude that A-tilts did not make the game too much overly complex.


So, with that given about A-tilts vs A-smashes--those mechanics being harder to master than rapid tap, tap, and tap-hold--it's reasonable to conclude that adding button press mechanics into Directional B moves is going to be easier to master than A-tilts differing from A-smashes.

Also, when the moves introduced (for select few characters) directly relate to and, simulate on button presses and direction how the move works, (like other simple games), you will get something that is far less complex to even cry about.

The bottom line is: More of something, doesn't always equal more complex. This is seen with the transition from SSB -> SSBM -> SSBB as a whole, and simplistic, best-seller games having this simple mechanic, in them.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm pretty sure SSB had tilts and smash attacks, but melee did add the charge property on every smash attack. Some characters even had the additional property to angle their FSmash.

 

[flyinfilipino]

The only issue I have with your proposal (and I think most people have the same thought) is that you don't really need to add more inputs just for the sake of having more moves. For a lot of characters, the four Special moves they have is enough (and it might have been a task to fill those inputs anyway). I think simplicity of controls and smaller movesets is more important than fluffing up movesets.

And yeah, there definitely were tilts in SSB. Tilts are the usually one of the hardest things for most new players to incorporate into their playing, especially if they don't really want to take the time to practice or master the game.

 

[Kenshinhan]

The only issue I have with your proposal (and I think most people have the same thought) is that you don't really need to add more inputs just for the sake of having more moves. For a lot of characters, the four Special moves they have is enough (and it might have been a task to fill those inputs anyway). I think simplicity of controls and smaller movesets is more important than fluffing up movesets.

And yeah, there definitely were tilts in SSB. Tilts are the usually one of the hardest things for most new players to incorporate into their playing, especially if they don't really want to take the time to practice or master the game.

Wow, I forgot there were tilts. Then I guess that emphasized my point even more about people accepting a harder-to-grasp concept over something simpler (which is what I'm proposing)

I've bolded your thesis as it seems to be the overlying thesis of everyone else that is a naysayer to more B moves for some characters.

Necessity is a mother of invention. Given Sakurai's attention to detail, he will 'likely' add a way to add more B moves to necessitate moves he may have missed for certain characters in their origin-game, for the sake of making them look more complete from that game.

Also, Sakurai may wish to add moves that flesh that character out in strategy and worth (such as added recovery, combo ability, etc)

Your thesis statement may be true for some characters who already have what they need, but some characters are sorely missing a move from their origin-game which WOULD help them out. Characters that are somewhat lackluster in performance now.

The ability to add more b-moves facilitates another method of game balance from the developers' stand-point. Just because your thesis is based off of your wish to keep things 'simple' based on quantity of moves, doesn't mean adding something will derive too far from that simplicity, especially when the practice of that something is easy to grasp.

When you look at the way the B move has evolved from SSB --> SSBM --> SSBB, you will see that it has come from just a simple direction input (ground or air, doesn't matter) to varying with either continuation, tap-hold (be it thumb stick or b button), and rapid tap (Mario's tornado). It's logical to conclude he could evolve the B move further to cover the aforementioned points I made, especially when in practice it's not that complex.

So, you can take Tilt B's if you want (unpopular). If you don't want that, what's left of modding the B to facilitate more stuff as Sakurai so wishes? Rapid Tap, Tap-Hold, Tap, and Tap+Dir -> Tap+Dir(aka continuation)

Furthermore, I still haven't really mastered Gliding on Pit and Metaknight as much as I've wanted to. That's a Tap B with Hold on the Thumb Stick and then attitude control(MK) or just simple control on thumb stick after 2nd jump (Pit.) That's far more complex than simply tap variance on B.

 

[SmashChu]

Uhh, we already have Tap Hold B moves. Ike's Side B is an example. DeDeDe's tricky Up B is a Tap Hold, and upon release he stops his Upward ascent (after a certain point) and free-falls. The tap hold is in the thumb stick however with a directional change to down.

No one complains about those moves. They're also not hard to differentiate from tap-holding and just tapping or even rapid tapping. Like I keep saying, such mechanics exist in simple games like Mario Party. So how would that be complex again?

Adding more B moves is inevitable. Regardless if you think we have enough, it's going to happen based on Sakurai's track record from Melee-Brawl. From Complex->Simple, he still added more B moves(Be it variance, hold, tap hold, rapid tap, continuation, etc) Okay?

You hold the button on Ike's move because it is a charge attack. Just like Jigglypuff's B move. Holding it to make Mario ground pound would not be intuitive to the players. People understand holding down a button to charge an attack. They will have trouble with holding it down to do a different one all together.

The problem is the moves you are suggesting wont feel natural to the player. There was a nice video with the designer of Dragon Quest who mentioned everything has to feel right. These wont feel right.

 

[Kenshinhan]

You hold the button on Ike's move because it is a charge attack. Just like Jigglypuff's B move. Holding it to make Mario ground pound would not be intuitive to the players. People understand holding down a button to charge an attack. They will have trouble with holding it down to do a different one all together.

The problem is the moves you are suggesting wont feel natural to the player. There was a nice video with the designer of Dragon Quest who mentioned everything has to feel right. These wont feel right.

Okay, I appreciate you showing me why that example of execution won't work for ground pound because you believe it won't feel right. However, Tap-Hold (Charging) is not relegated to simply charging anymore. Not in Brawl. Tap-Hold in A comboes and B moves also means continued use until button release.

With that given in Brawl, let's look at Ground Pound.

Ground Pound's physics is Mario slamming down from the air, and so holding down B is a representation of going from unpressed to pressed and held, as a pound does when he sits down. The hold part also simulates to a person that holding the button makes sense while Mario is in the process of going down. This is an alternative to using Thumb stick held Down (as DDD's Up B is held up.) Why an alternative? Because if not, then no other Down B move could co-exist as a tap b but hold down stick for DI. (ie using tornado and DI'ing down with it would be negated by facilitating Ground Pound with hold stick down rather than button)

He's in stun state from the impact (recovery frames) so a visual cue of the move being done allows you to see to let go of B by that time.

 

[Big-Cat]

The only issue I have with your proposal (and I think most people have the same thought) is that you don't really need to add more inputs just for the sake of having more moves. For a lot of characters, the four Special moves they have is enough (and it might have been a task to fill those inputs anyway). I think simplicity of controls and smaller movesets is more important than fluffing up movesets.

And yeah, there definitely were tilts in SSB. Tilts are the usually one of the hardest things for most new players to incorporate into their playing, especially if they don't really want to take the time to practice or master the game.

The amount of special moves needed should boil down to whether they need it to be faithful to the source material and/or tap into the potential of their playstyle.

Again, I think, if we need to bring Sonic up again, would be to expand both his Down and Side B into something similar to Sword Dance.

@Kenshinhan
I can't look at this right away so I might edit this later, but be very careful on your word choice.

And ground pound should just be j.Down Smash B, no holding it down.

You don't like it? Then stop posting lousy ideas. Surprised you don't call out everyone else when they criticize you too.

They're lousy in YOUR opinion, just like I think your idea is stupid to extend the number of players up to eight. And try to not just attack others' ideas you don't like and stick with it. Keep an open mind instead of pulling out sales numbers and your criteria for overwhelming complexity. Maybe if they explain it to you more, you'll be open to the idea.

Come to think of it, I can hardly think of a time where you weren't chiming in to disagree with someone when you aren't "called".

I can take criticism from everyone else because at least it can evolve into refinement of ideas and more interesting topics, but you and just get under my skin with just complaining and not trying to offer up a possible solution. Even people who aren't carpenters can make suggestions for fixing a table.

 

[Kenshinhan]

@Kenshinhan
I can't look at this right away so I might edit this later, but be very careful on your word choice.

And ground pound should just be j.Down Smash B, no holding it down.

Ideally, with no other B variation present in Mario's Moveset, yes, aerial Down smash B would be Ground Pound.

However, if you really want to re-incorporate Mario Tornado simultaneously, you need to implement a button press differential to make Tornado take precedence with the tap frame(s), while the hold frame(s) will instantly option-select the Down B(held) into Ground Pound instead.

And because DI'ing is within Mario Tornado, you can't let Thumb stick (held down) be the mechanics that option select Ground Pound from Tornado. Rather, B(held) would.

IN addition, to further prevent botching of Aerial-Only Ground Pound from DI'ing down Tornado, You could make Ground Pound require both thumb stick and B held down, so that it's nearly impossible to botch the two up for the other. A single tap gets you your tornado, while you have to hold both buttons to get your Ground Pound to come out, so you're not easily botching.

@adding 8 players:
An alternative I suggested:
Tagging: Tagging in this game (z+directional pad) would open up so many more doors to fun. It would increase players allowed to fight in one match with more than one Wii console involved. You could have up to four consoles, each with four players tagging in and out for that 1 of 4 spots, for instance. It's like a free-for-all of teams.

You would have a tag button that could be turned off/on in Settings so it's either with Tag-in or No Tag-in.

- Disabling tag button then lets you pick Settings to auto-tag upon death, the next highest ranking teammate.
- Rank is a setting that would re-order your D-pad+Z tag-in based off one of the following: Character order selection(static, non-changing), Lowest current %(dynamic) KO count (dynamic)

Once your ally loses all their stock (in stock) they can't be tagged in for the rest of the match without an additional stock of your own. so tagging in someone who has lost all their stock automatically share-stocks if you can.
- With tagging disabled, share-stocking will work normally by your ally pressing A+B to take the current tagee's extra stock and will reappear upon death of the teammate currently fighting

Tagging in (z+directional, the directional choosing to a corresponding ally on your team) would auto-dash your taggee into the fray from the closest side of the screen.
- They could then just use A to dash in with a dashing attack, shielding, slam back the thumb stick to pivot, or slam it down to stop and start an attack from there.

You could only tag-out grounded and on the stage platform(s) to prevent cheesy ways of escaping edge pressure or aerial pressure.

For a single console, Tag-Team wouldn't improve much. The best you have is just a glorified one-on-one. This would then let characters that thrive in one-on-ones choose to fight in Tag-Team rather than non-tag Team play.

 

[Arcadenik]

Shield Specials, anyone?

Samus's Shield Special could be turning into the Morph Ball and dropping a Super Bomb. Unlike her normal Bombs, the Super Bomb takes a few seconds before finally exploding like the Smart Bomb item. I think this might change Samus's tactics. She might want to lure or throw her opponent towards the Super Bomb so they would get caught in the large explosion and suffer a high amount of damage.

How about Thunder Wave for Pikachu's Shield Special? It is an electric-type move that causes paralysis. Maybe Pikachu could surround itself in an electric force field and it gets bigger to a certain size the longer you hold down the B button. Anyone who gets inside the electric force field would get stunned (but no damage) as if their shields just broke. This gives Pikachu the opportunity to close in and deliver a finishing move (either down+B or smash side+A, you know?)

How about Leech Seed for Ivysaur? It would shoot a seed at an opponent and then the opponet's percentage steadily goes up while Ivysaur's percentage steadily goes down for five seconds. That, or Grass Knot, where grass grows around Ivysaur and opponents will always trip every time they walk on grass. That would give Ivysaur a chance to use Bullet Seed to inflict lots of damage or smash them off the stage.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

How about Thunder Wave for Pikachu's Shield Special? It is an electric-type move that causes paralysis. Maybe Pikachu could surround itself in an electric force field and it gets bigger to a certain size the longer you hold down the B button. Anyone who gets inside the electric force field would get stunned (but no damage) as if they were paralyzed by Zero Suit Samus' Neutral B / Down Smash. This gives Pikachu the opportunity to close in and deliver a finishing move (either down+B or smash side+A, you know?).

Sounds broken to me. Plus, this will increase the number of Pikanewbs (you know, those who spams Thunder constantly). I put in red what I would suggest instead.

 

[Kenshinhan]

I hope we can get all these ideas organized into sub-forums that categorize the ideas from one another. Character specific suggestions, new features and battle system mechanics, Title suggestion, New Characters, New Stages, etc.

As for the title: I really like the following suggestions, ordered from most to least favorite: SSBFray, SSBRumble, SSBScuffle, SSBFeud, SSBQuarrel, SSBWar. I am interested to see what other ending name people can come up with, that would best fit SSB4 that has a definition similar to Melee, and Brawl.