[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[i8pie]

I think we should drop the Duck Hunt discussion. Debating, arguing, whatever doesn't ruin his chances nor do they increase them. We've gone through practically all the arguments and all the arguments will be repeated if we continue.

Anyway, @Kuma: not sure if this what you meant but I'd like to see Rachel/Sturm from Advance Wars with a keep away playstyle like Dormammu and Blackheart. They could have a soldier accompany them like Servbot to Tron Bonne and they could do most of their attacks.

 

[Jaklub]

The only characters that seem to be universally supported are Mewtwo, Mega Man, and Little Mac.

Many would kill me for that, but what, except fan support, is an argument for Mewtwo to come back?

 

[Kenshinhan]

KumaOso, about the unique character movesets thing you have been enjoying recently? What do you want to say about that?

As for me, when it comes to SF and MvC gameplay vs. SSB gameplay, I prefer Smash. I used to play Street Fighter II (the original one before the Turbo and Super versions came out) and I was turned off by the complexities that game had to offer. I had no patience to press and hold "down" on the +Control Pad for two seconds before I had to quickly press "up" and a kick button at the same time just to make Chun-Li flip upside-down and start spinning with her legs like a helicopter. I had to learn how to do Ryu's fireball the hard way. Was it "down" then "forward" and a punch button at the same time? No, it was "down", then "diagonal-down", and then finally "forward" and a punch button at the same time and you had to do it quickly. I couldn't figure out how to do most of the characters' specials that I just relied on their regular attacks. In time, I learned how to time my regular attacks and win a few matches. It was great but my options were limited because I knew that if I had known how to execute their special moves properly, I would be able to string them together with regular attacks and I would have more options to win a match.

Super Smash Bros. changed that for me. Mario's fireball? Just press B. Mario's uppercut? Press "up" and B at the same time. The controls were simplified enough for me to be able to string together a character's special moves and regular attacks. And from there, I would be able to learn how to truly develop a strategy with all the options available that I know from the beginning. I prefer Smash over Street Fighter and vs. Capcom games because I am able to use all of my character's moves from the get-go that I can formulate my own playstyle/strategy with them from the very beginning. It has nothing to do with casual vs. tourney at all. It was the accessibility that Smash had to offer to me.

You're referring to technical skill. Technical skill still exists in Brawl, but it's been vastly dumbed down from Melee with the subtraction of wavedashing, l-cancelling, hit stun, and the addition of auto-sweet spotting ledges, reverse-ledge grabs, wider window of teching, and tripping. Technical skill is how well you execute your character's moves efficiently because of countless training sessions practicing them. It is apparent that SSF4 has far more complexity in its moveset and the tight timing to make things link together. However, all that is made easier with an arcade stick, and getting used to it.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I'm okay with King K. Rool OR Dixie, we do not need both.

Yes we do, especially if people think we need Krystal or a fourth FE character.


Off the top of my head for potential females and villains from established series (ignoring likelihood/hierarchies for now):

Female: Dixie Kong, Mona, Krystal, Jody Summer
Villain: Bowser Jr., King K. Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, Black Shadow, Porky, Claus
Both: Captain Syrup

For the sake of completion:

Neither: Toad, Tingle, Roy, Samurai Goroh

Captain Syrup, no doubt. Mona and Ashley just give off that "add me because I am female" vibe. And they are from a spin-off series. I rather have someone who is a recurring character from the main series.

Mona is the lead of the WarioWare ensemble (not counting Wario of course), among other things. She'd be perfectly fine and actually comes off as more likely than Syrup given Sakurai's implied preference towards WW. I'd prefer Syrup myself, but that's just me.

Ashley is just one of those popular suggestion characters like Midna or Sylux, so nuts to her.

Also WarioWare is by no means any less important than Wario Land. They're sister series, not main and spinoff.

suck it up

These three words sum up the reason why other fighters will never be as popular as Smash. But that's not what you wanted to talk about.

how much a role moveset potential plays a role in the inclusion of a character.

Not sure if you missed some of my posts on the subject, but the short version is "potential isn't worth much since everything has potential for anything." Pretty sure there's a Sakurai quote where he admits the same, and the last post I made on this subject lightly discussed how unique the Brawl newcomers are in spite of their not being particularly special in their own games.

 

[DarkShadow20]

Why would this dog do that? Just because they are in the same game?

Yes, just like how Ness and Lucas's special attacks(except for PK Flash) are from other characters in the same game.

 

[SmashChu]

Not every game has to sell a million copies to be a success. This depends entirely on the budget of the game. If a game needs to only sell 200,000 thousand copies to make a good profit, it's successful. It's your opinion that games are successful if and only if they sell a million or more copies.

There was something I realized the other day, and I want to amend what I said before.

Sure, you could sell 200k and make a profit, but why stop at 200K. Don't you want more? More sales is more money, and this is why we do business anyway. This raises another question: if I do X and get only 200K, couldn't I do Y or Z and make more? Why make 200K when there are better opportunities out there. I could revive an old series, make a new addition to a popular one, or make a new series entirely. If 200K is my goal, than any of these other options will easily be able to beat it.

I think it'd do you some good to read this short article:
http://www.bitmob.com/articles/the-fighting-game-experience[/QUOTE]

Anyway, I think that real life animals aren't going to be playable in Smash. That would make it look like Nintendo is promoting animal cruelty and it would attract negative attention and stir controversy. This, to me, is probably the animal equivalent to Sakurai's "no realistic guns" rule. I suggested the Duck Hunt Dog to get around that rule like Sakurai gave Snake explosives to get around his rule. At least he is a cartoon dog who has the ability to stand on two legs like a humanoid (and this frees his arms to use for scratching) and has more moveset potential than the Nintendogs as the ducks, clay pigeons, the NES Zapper, and the hunter (the Duck Hunt player) could be incorporated into his moveset.

I was going to combine this with the thing I was talking about with Kuma. Don;t remember how I planned to do it, but here we go.

The problem with the moveset is it doesn't embody the character. The reason Iwata wanted Sakurai to do this game is that he takes such attention to detail. This is likely why they didn't mind having him do Kid Icarus either.

But you may say: This moveset does embody the character. He uses the things from the game. He doesn't. He is using items that appeared in the game, but none of what you are suggesting is what he actually did. He never threw claw pigeons or shot a gun, He laughed and grabbed ducks. I know you will say "But what about Ness." Ness uses PSI to do combat, so it's not hard to think that he could also learn other PSI abilities like Fire and Thunder. He also uses things he had in the game like a bat and a Yo-yo. This isn't just about the dog but about designing characters in general. You have to look at the character and say "What do they do and what could they do." Fox is a pilot and likely has some fighting experience. He could also have a blaster as he would need one outside of his ship.

To put this into more light, I am going to pick 10 characters at random (I'll assign numbers to the characters and them generate random numbers)

• Mario-Mario's special moves are a little odd (except his fireballs. That was a must) because he took his basis off of Ryu's moves in Street Fighter. But even still, he has always been considered a well rounded hero (and who could blame them. He's good at everything from gold, to being a doctor, construction worker and so on). So he took a well balanced moveset from a well balanced character. Even so, Mario's attacks are adaptations of what he does in Mario 64. His punches and kicks resemble moves from that game.
• King Dedede-King Dedede is a blend of moves he's used in games and ones that fit his personality. Sakurai describes using minions for his side special and final smash saying "Hmm. I guess it’s in his character to leave the work to someone else." His down special is a window in to his unfair practices. His overall movement and style is very comical. When he ducks, he lays down. When he's hit, he has a funny facial expression. He even has a "big gay dance," and let's not forget how he calls in the final smash. Of course, Sakurai doesn't forget his power and giant hammer.
• Falco-Falco is interesting. He is a bird, so Sakurai gave him amazing jumping ability. He also slashes with his wings rather than punches (as birds don't punch). Not much else can be said about Falco that can't be said about Fox, but he defiantly has his arrogant, smug style from what he says to kicking his reflector.
• Kirby-Kirby was easy to make as he already had a lot of moves and a "fighter," and "suplex," abilities. What makes him interesting is his copy ability. To add to his cutness, he even tries to say the character's lines they might say. This is where we get "BEEP," and "falcom punch." in a cute way. (BTW, I'm not cheating. This is what the random number generator gave me).
• Marth-Marth is an interesting case. The only move he has from his game is counter (which shows Sakurai's attention to detail). The others are made up. But why those moves. Well, contrast him to Ike. Ike is a mercenary, so he has a brutish, unrefined fighting style. Marth is a prince, and likely has professional training. So this is how we have his defined style and moves like Dancing Blade. Roy follows the same idea, but he is more eager and his moves show that.
• Wolf-They gave Wolf a very feral movement, from his claws to his low to the ground stance. He isn't refined like Fox or Falco and he is a criminal (and a wolf) so he uses a brutish, aggressive style. I can defiantly say that "feral," was what they were going with for Wolf. His reflector and tank are interesting, as he backwards engineered them from Starfox's. His tank, like his ship, is stronger than the Landmasters.
• Snake-What defines Snake the most is his play style (you'll love this Kuma). The Metal Gear Solid games are about stealth and tactical decisions. His moves show this by being quick , despite being strong. So he could sneak in, KO, and sneak out. Snake's moves come out fast, but have cooldown at the end of them. You can also use his explosives in a tactical way as well. Of course, he also crawls on the ground and does a sleeper hold as his grab.
• Link-Link's moves are mostly taken from Link's Adventure. There isn't much to say about him, as he makes sense. He uses his key items from the Zelda games and, as a result, moves slow (he was never suppose to be a fast warrior).
• Samus-What is interesting is how fast she moves. For being as heavy as she is, she moves pretty quickly. She is also floaty. He movement is all based off of Super Metroid (and Metroid I guess, she was floaty there was well). She uses her arm cannon a lot for her moves and even shots flames out of it. WE mentioned what a character can do. It is not to surprising when she shoots fire from her gun. She never did this in the games, but can do it in Smash. It wouldn't be surprising to the player because his ability makes sense, to fire shots out of her cannon. Notice how she never streams it, it's always a line of shots.
• Meta-Knight(yes, I did get all the Kirby characters)-Meta-Knights fast speed is based off of Kirby Super Star. When you fight him, he moves fast. He is not a slow character and will use fast action sword slashes. He plays like this in Kirby: Nightmare in dreamland when you use him. He even moves quickly with him flying. He also tries to give off some air of mystery with his final smash and entrance. Another interesting trait is he borrows Shuttle Loop. He never did this. But Meta-Knight is really a cross between the sword and wing abilities, so it makes sense that he could use a wing ability (this is how he played in Air Ride).

You can see that the characters take a lot from both their games and how they act. Sakurai takes careful consideration to this. Take Animal Crossing. Sure, you could make a moveset from them using items from the games, but there is no conflict in Animal Crossing. In fact, the only way to get hurt is to get stung by bees or fall into a pit fall (or trip). They really don't fight.

So you could have the Dog use Zappers and throw clay pigeons, but how does that fit the character?

 

[SmashChu]

Okay, can someone PLEASE go back to that moveset and character thing I brought up. It's the first character related topic I've enjoyed in a long time.

I will. Just not sure where we left off.

 

[ryuu seika]

Many would kill me for that, but what, except fan support, is an argument for Mewtwo to come back?

He had a good unique moveset.

I hate pokemon and I'd still like to see Mewtwo return.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Smashchu

That's great and all... but where is the "careful consideration" that Sakurai took for R.O.B.? Hmm?

 

[Flame Hyenard]

He had a good unique moveset.

I got to agree on this. Teleport could be used as a mind-gaming technique, because of how fast the attack is executed. Shadow Ball had a SFX I loved. Confusion is fun to use, but difficult to hit with, and Disable is the only normal attack(no Final Smash involved) in the whole SSB series to daze the opponent on hit.

Too bad he wasn't in Brawl, because it would be fun to daze a high-percentage Snake after he placed a bomb with his D-Smash

 

[flyinfilipino]

So you could have the Dog use Zappers and throw clay pigeons, but how does that fit the character?

He could have a comical, taunting fighting style based off his appearances in the games that he is in. As an anthropomorphic and cartoony dog, he could pull off punches and kicks and slaps like any other character. His special moves could involve the ducks, clay pigeons, and Zapper shots from the games and characterize his helpful/not helpful role in the Duck Hunt games. There is conflict and "violence" in the Duck Hunt games, so he's not barred from fighting like some other characters. See, the same sort of nebulous characterization can be applied here too. Again, there's nothing stopping this Dog from having a moveset. There are other factors that would keep him from being selected as a playable character; sure, that's true, but you trying to argue that it's something else related to feasibility to disguise the fact that you just want to disagree with Arcadenik just isn't working.

 

[Kenshinhan]

The problem with the moveset is it doesn't embody the character. The reason Iwata wanted Sakurai to do this game is that he takes such attention to detail. This is likely why they didn't mind having him do Kid Icarus either.

This moveset does embody the character. He uses the things from the game. He doesn't. He is using items that appeared in the game, but none of what you are suggesting is what he actually did. He never threw claw pigeons or shot a gun, He laughed and grabbed ducks..

I just don't like how Sakurai totally forgot about Sonic's original power-ups in the Genesis saga of Sonic The Hedgehog. Those are as staple to Sonic as Cape, Fireball, and Up B are to Mario. B-moves with Mario and Luigi manifest power-ups(items) they had to gain. For Sonic, where's my Fast-Shoes power-up move? Where's my fire/electric/water shield power-up? B moves have notoriously been moves that manifest power-ups from the game the characters started out, and moved into. So while Sakurai didn't give Sonic ANY of his power-ups, he gave his Up B a spring that he's never really gained as a power-up and was more like a stage-element? Okay that makes sense... The double-jump introduced in Sonic The Hedgehog 3 gave him a basic 'slice shield' that helped him kill things with a 360deg hitbox. Where's that at? When he had a shield on, instead of that slice shield he would do an attack corresponding to the elemental power-up shield he was wearing. (IE: Fire's Air Rush attack, Electric's double jump with splash damage below, and Water's bounce jump)

Sure the other moves he gave his B-set (the homing one in particular) are cool and from the newer Sonic games, but you can't just ignore the basic power-ups that Sonic has to compliment his long-time rival, Mario and HIS power-ups from the Nintendo games.

This problem can be solved by introducing more B-moves. Rapid Tap B moves can be different from Single tap and Charge B-moves. Aerial B-moves can be different from Ground B-moves. And, if you want, Tilt B moves can be different from hard tap B-moves.

 

[ryuu seika]

Stop trying to add extra B move slots.
The simple fix to sonic would be to make UpB his Homing Attack and turn NeutralB and ForwardB into something worthwhile.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Many would kill me for that, but what, except fan support, is an argument for Mewtwo to come back?

The assumption that he was the final character to be cut from the roster and was presumably never intended to be cut in the first place. Same deal with Roy.

I figure Sakurai would prefer to retain characters rather than cycle through them, but that's just me.

Marth-Marth is an interesting case. The only move he has from his game is counter (which shows Sakurai's attention to detail). The others are made up. But why those moves. Well, contrast him to Ike. Ike is a mercenary, so he has a brutish, unrefined fighting style. Marth is a prince, and likely has professional training. So this is how we have his defined style and moves like Dancing Blade. Roy follows the same idea, but he is more eager and his moves show that.

Just nitpicking some more, but Dancing Blade and Dolphin Slash are based off of animations in the same way that Quick Draw was (Aether itself also originally being based off of one of these). Much more detail in this super long video.

 

[Kenshinhan]

Stop trying to add extra B move slots.
The simple fix to sonic would be to make UpB his Homing Attack and turn NeutralB and ForwardB into something worthwhile.

Why? You might as well say, "Stop trying to add new stuff." I mean, give a reason if you disagree with something. Generally, when you have an argument you tend to provide supporting evidence that outweighs the opposition's supporting evidence. My argument is that More B moves will not only not be overpowered, but add more fun and competitive play to the game. How far Sakurai takes it from there, is up to him and his development team.

I don't understand why everyone here is so critical and quick to say NO without supporting evidence. Especially when no one here is an expert on balance or programming Smash Bro's to the point that they could prove it would be problematic to code or be problematic to balance.

 

[majora_787]

I'm just gonna say, Toise, Kid Icarus may or may not merit a second character since it's being revived for the 3DS. And Medusa is... IMO, more probable, because she kills the "Not Enough Women" and "Not Enough Villains" birds with one stone. Juuust saying.

And yes, Arc, Ridley discussion *threads* in the time of a confirmed smash game in development are banned forever. Happened before Brawl came out, the Ridley support thread was closed and it was made clear that nobody was to ever make another one. Ever.

 

[SmashChu]

Just nitpicking some more, but Dancing Blade and Dolphin Slash are based off of animations in the same way that Quick Draw was (Aether itself also originally being based off of one of these). Much more detail in this super long video.

Yeah, I never saw that.

BTW, I'm not talking about Dog anymore. That post was meant to be the end. I will go though more characters if anyone cares (the 10 I got were not ones I was pondering).

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I'm just gonna say, Toise, Kid Icarus may or may not merit a second character since it's being revived for the 3DS. And Medusa is... IMO, more probable, because she kills the "Not Enough Women" and "Not Enough Villains" birds with one stone. Juuust saying.

I deliberately left KI since it's not out yet and I'm against jumping the gun. Wouldn't mind Medusa or Palutena if they turn out well though.

Also being female/villain doesn't increase probability. Appeal, theoretically, but not necessarily probability. Take F-Zero for instance: people familiar with the series would tell you that Samurai Goroh is more likely than either Black Shadow or Jody Summer, and he's in the "neither" pile. I would also argue that Toad is more likely than Bowser Jr.

In a very technical sense, a lack of females/villains isn't an actual problem, so it's not something that requires solving. It's just something that SHOULD change, which fortunately, everything suggests that it will.

 

[i8pie]

I don't understand why everyone here is so critical and quick to say NO without supporting evidence. Especially when no one here is an expert on balance or programming Smash Bro's to the point that they could prove it would be problematic to code or be problematic to balance.

What does coding have to do with this? Your idea is a matter of over complicating a system that already works. If specials were to be more complex like that, it would probably put off a lot of people who play Brawl because it's easier and more simple than other fighting games.

Also, why do we need to add more specials anyway?

 

[Fawfulcopter]

I don't think the Laughing Dog discussion was resolved. We kind of devolved from actual conversation to 'He didn't do anything in his game' 'but it makes perfect sense for him to do this and this and this' 'but he didn't do that in the game' 'but neither did ROB' 'well ROB is a robot, so of course he can fight' 'but dogs are notorious biters, and scratchers, and barkers, and pouncers' 'but it's a dog, so it's different' and so on.

But the point of my original question was NOT 'is this character able to have a good moveset', that discussion was for you to have with yourself and reach a logical conclusion. The one I came to was 'yes, yes he can', but I can certainly see why some think Laughing Dog(Which is a far better name than Duck Hunt Dog) couldn't fight.
But my question wasn't that. My question was 'is this character important, popular, and representative enough to be included?', which nobody has as of yet answered. So let's move away from this moveset nonsense, and discuss the character based on its merits and demerits. Ok? I'll start by showing my side of the argument.

Duck Hunt, along with SMB, were the launch titles for the NES that came pre-packaged in with it. Yes, we've got ROB representing the Hardware on the NES, but we don't really have a character representing the software of the NES. Oh sure, Ice Climbers kinda do, but their game wasn't all that popular, and several people had no idea who they were in Melee. Laughing Dog, on the other hand, is instantly recognizable by most people who'd buy this game, even if they haven't played it, as shooting the dog is one of the most overused video game jokes ever(In the same section as 'Toad's flipping you off' and 'He's got head damage because he hits bricks with his head(hint: He uses his fist)'.)
So he's recognizable, and he's got historical significance. I'd also say Duck Hunt is probably one of the most popular NES games; sure, of course Zeldas 1 and 2, Kirby, the Mario trilogy, Metroid, and a few others outrank it, but I'd say it's probably one of, if not the most popular NES-exclusive franchises(You seen Duck Hunt Wii yet? Nope.). And sure, people claim to hate Laughy here, but he's hated in the same way that Wario is hated, not the way Tingle is hated. He's not mean to you, he's mean to the disembodied crosshairs, in the same way Wario is mean to Mario.
Which brings me to my next point; he represents a genre thus far unrepresented in SSB; First Person Shooters. What's that? It's not an Eff-Pee-Ess? Yeah it is. Also, Pokemon Snap is. Don't say it isn't; it's in the first person, you're 'aiming' at 'enemies' using a 'crosshairs', and you can throw small, roundish objects that do different things, aka, Grenades.
Anyway, that's my 53 1/4 cents. Make of this what you will.

Oh, and if you really no longer wish to discuss Laughing Dog, how about a new topic?
What would you guys think if Diddy had Dixie added onto him as a combo Ice Climbers team and Zelda/Sheik tag-out? It'd represent a major part of the Donkey Kong Country series, and it'd allow for more Donkey Kong characters in one slot on the select screen.

 

[Kenshinhan]

What does coding have to do with this? Your idea is a matter of over complicating a system that already works. If specials were to be more complex like that, it would probably put off a lot of people who play Brawl because it's easier and more simple than other fighting games.

Also, why do we need to add more specials anyway?

How does adding any of the above extra B moves, complicate a game further? From SSB to SSBMelee they added tilt A's and no one had a problem with it. They even left in L-canceling. SSBMelee was more successful than Brawl has been in the same time span of its tenure.

Secondly, we already see evidence in Melee and Brawl of B moves changing from whether they're done in the air or on the ground, such as Captain Falcon's Side B. No one complains about this. No one complains about adding a few extra B moves to those characters who would want/deserve/need a few extra things to make them more of a representation of what they were from the game they came from.

The complexity of changing B's up for a few characters based off their aerial/ground state doesn't seem complex because of its existence already in A moves and a few characters. Therefore, adding a few here and there wouldn't harm the general fun of the game. Adding new things will attract and improve the opinion of Brawlers everywhere because no one wants a direct port of Brawl again with little to no change of depth or new features.

Lastly, the complexity of simply tapping B, holding B down, or rapidly tapping B is really not that complex at all. The timing and command movement of SF4, Tekken, Soul Calibur are far more complex because not every fighter's commands are the same. In SSB, EVERYBODY has direction+button. That's very simplistic and, adding aerial/ground state changes, tilt changes, or even tap changes to B physics is simply not that complicated compared to the other Fighting games execution.

So, now that I've supported why it's not complex, and the assumption that no one wants to Simplify Brawl further and not see new additions, you could then see why New B moves would be beneficial to fleshing out characters more rather than taking a minimalistic approach.

 

[i8pie]

How does adding any of the above extra B moves, complicate a game further? From SSB to SSBMelee they added tilt A's and no one had a problem with it. They even left in L-canceling. SSBMelee was more successful than Brawl has been in the same time span of its tenure.

I'm not understanding what L-Cancelling has to do with changing inputs of a move. L-Cancelling and most of the ATs of Melee didn't come back because of the changes to gravity and speed in Brawl, not because the actual inputs changed. I'll explain inputs a bit later.

Secondly, we already see evidence in Melee and Brawl of B moves changing from whether they're done in the air or on the ground, such as Captain Falcon's Side B. No one complains about this. No one complains about adding a few extra B moves to those characters who would want/deserve/need a few extra things to make them more of a representation of what they were from the game they came from.

Captain Falcon still moves forward and punches people when does side B. The effect is different (one version hits up, the other knocks them down) but it's essentially the same move. It's not quite like pressing side B on the ground and you fire a projectile and in the air you do something else completely.

The complexity of changing B's up for a few characters based off their aerial/ground state doesn't seem complex because of its existence already in A moves and a few characters. Therefore, adding a few here and there wouldn't harm the general fun of the game. Adding new things will attract and improve the opinion of Brawlers everywhere because no one wants a direct port of Brawl again with little to no change of depth or new features.

You've got a point. I'd like to have Up-B on the ground be a normal special and when used in the air it is a recovery. But other than that? I don't see how you could do include more B inputs without complicating controls.

Lastly, the complexity of simply tapping B, holding B down, or rapidly tapping B is really not that complex at all. The timing and command movement of SF4, Tekken, Soul Calibur are far more complex because not every fighter's commands are the same. In SSB, EVERYBODY has direction+button. That's very simplistic and, adding aerial/ground state changes, tilt changes, or even tap changes to B physics is simply not that complicated compared to the other Fighting games execution.

Yes but Smash is about accessibility. As far as I can tell, a lot of casual people / players that aren't that good have troubles with tilts. Tilts are very important to some characters (King Dedede's godly u-tilt, Fox's u-tilt, Samus' d-tilt) and including tilts in specials would be even more annoying.

I can already see myself failing to recover because instead of pressing Up B, I pressed Up-Tilt B... Most casuals aren't going to be that dedicated to master a few inputs and will probably get frustrated and stop playing altogether, even if it is just the difference between mashing A and holding it down.

As for the inclusion of tilts, A Tilts aren't bad because casuals are probably just going to mash A in any direction and they'll get an attack so they'll be satisfied. It's a bit different from adding to your general attack button and adding it to your special button. If casuals are going to be able to play the game, at least the most important parts of the game should be simplified for ease (ie specials, for some side B, for most, up B).

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

So, now that I've supported why it's not complex, and the assumption that no one wants to Simplify Brawl further and not see new additions, you could then see why New B moves would be beneficial to fleshing out characters more rather than taking a minimalistic approach.

The only reason I've seen you suggest this big change is so that Sonic can have his Sonic 3 shields. Am I wrong?


Opie is quickly becoming my favorite poster named after an Andy Griffith Show character.



@Copter 5: Nothing gets resolved, things just die.

 

[SmashDivine]

Actually, I was upset that Dark Link was just a costume for Link - I thought it would have been so much cooler if he was a different character with slightly different attributes, maybe a heavier character or something. Also, as many people have mentioned, Ganondorf definitely needs to be a swordsman and has no business being a CF clone. It'd also be cool if he had an alternate form (Ganon) that he could switch to.

As for new features, I'd like a better online experience (i.e. faster, good ranking and tournament system, etc), a better stage builder, no time limit on recording, no prat falls, the possibility for patches to be released to improve the balance of the game and remove glitches, the ability to use your own music tracks in the game, and a better single player experience.

Also, they should a smash game for the 3ds. Just sayin.

 

[Shorts]

Donkey Kong vs. Fire Emblem

Let's say that for SOME crazy reason there was four slots open to one of these series, which deserves four more? Both have the same amount of games. I'm pretty unfamiliar with DK (outside of DKC/DK64) and I have only played FEoR.

Filling the four slots is easy enough I think, Marth, Ike, Caeda, Roy, Lyn, and Black Knight are all possibilities. While we Have Donkey, Diddy, Dixie and K. Rool. on the other side.

The major complaint/problem I would have with giving four to Donkey Kong is that it's a spin-off series. I feel like it would be weird seeing all these minor "Mario" characters that were in many mario spin-off games get into SSB. If we break down the roles of each character I guess that's what it comes down to.

How Important is Dixie/K. Rool overall? Same goes for Lyn/Caeda/BK?

AgainI have no idea. If i had my way it would be FE four slots, and DK 3. I guess what are your opinion on this scenario, and how do you feel about these games overall?

 

[Kenshinhan]

The only reason I've seen you suggest this big change is so that Sonic can have his Sonic 3 shields. Am I wrong?

Please read my posts again. The posts two pages back already introduce B moves and Sonic was made an example of (since he's popular and sucks compared to Mario in Brawl)

You will see Sonic was firstly an example of a character who could use more fleshing out to reflect what he has done in the games he comes from. I would advocate more B moves across the board for when Sakurai saw fit to add something new but not take anything away from any given character.

As for Tilt B's, casual gamers are not inept kids. They are people who practice against the LVL.9 CPU and their friends. They know how to use tilt A's and Smash A's. They will botch every now and then but that's what this game is about. Even pro's botch and make technical errors. Just because that exists now is not a reason to hold-back tilt B's sprinkled in for some characters. IE: Most characters might not even have a different Tilt Up B vs their Up B, while some might because their Up B might not be their best recovery, so tilt Up B might not really affect their recovery game. Suggestions aren't "take it the way I say or don't take it at all" it's more like "Here's something we can add. Discuss and see if you want to modify it or limit it in some way."

The same applies to differing B's based on ground/aerial state, and Charge B, Tap B, or Rapid Tap B. The latter or even less easy to mess up, since rapid tap moves require three rapid buttons or more (oh wow, that's really hard for a 4th grader to do, right?) Or a single tap (I did that as a 5 yr old playing Super Mario) and charge (so all I got to do is hold it down longer than a tap and I'm good? Not too hard.) Once again, not every B move will be altered from its original for every character. Just the ones that can use more room to grow while not overpowering them. Having more moves doesn't mean being a better character. Some people tend to believe if some characters get extra B moves over others, they'll somehow be better? Not the case.

 

[i8pie]

Meh. I never said or implied that casuals are inept fourth graders. I'll admit that my last example was too weak. So then, following your logic, I can assume all casuals are 9 year olds that know how to tilt, can beat level 9's and played Mario when they were young? Yet there are many casuals that have done and/or do no such thing, that play Brawl with friends, items and 'banned' stages, and are past that age. Casuals don't just apply to kids.

And there are some inept people like that, regardless of their age. If you try make specials more complicated you'll end up putting them off. As for your last argument, adding more moves does give characters an advantage. It means they have more options than other characters. Coincidentally some characters that DO have more moves than most of the other characters (characters with glides and subsequent attacks, for example) are higher tier than those without.

If you want more moves, just take a hint from Dancing Sword, Monkey Flip and most three part attacks. Otherwise, say hello to unintended recovery stuff ups. It's like you said; even if they have got tilting down, they'll still botch it up from time to time, right?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

The major complaint/problem I would have with giving four to Donkey Kong is that it's a spin-off series.

Okay, now I see where you went wrong.

For the record, DK and Wario are no more "inferior by virtue of being a spin-off" to Mario than The Simpsons are to the Tracey Ullman Show. Considering how divorced from Mario these series are and how successful they are on their own, it's kinda ignorant to hold them back on their vague connections to their origin.

Oh yeah, for reference, Wario is bigger than Metroid, Star Fox, Fire Emblem, F-Zero, EarthBound, etc. Donkey Kong WAS bigger than Zelda (and in fact DKC still beats OoT in sales) but fell behind after Nintendo sold Rare. It's starting to catch up thanks to DKCR now though.

Lastly:

Source: Nintendo [as of October 2010]:
Total Super Mario series: more than 250 million units sold worldwide
Total Zelda series: more than 62 million units worldwide
Total Metroid series: more than 16 million units worldwide
Total Pokémon series: more than 215 million units worldwide
Total Donkey Kong series: more than 50 million units worldwide

Not listed, but Kirby should be in the mid-30's, Wario around 22-ish, and everything else below Metroid. Also DKCR sold 4.21 million between its launch in November and the end of December.

Yeah yeah too many numbers. I've got couches to move right now so I'll come back to the DK/FE bit.

 

[Kenshinhan]

If you want more moves, just take a hint from Dancing Sword, Monkey Flip and most three part attacks. Otherwise, say hello to unintended recovery stuff ups. It's like you said; even if they have got tilting down, they'll still botch it up from time to time, right?

See, this is what I'm talking about. You've just reminded me another way to extend B moves further for more characters other than Diddy Kong and Marth. This is an excellent idea if we can make it more widespread.

It's all about taking ideas and modifying them so that the general public won't get turned off. Sure, Mario might not get TIlt B's and so newbies might not like any character with a single or a couple Tilt B's, but they still have characters they'll gravitate to that are 'easier to play' This exists in Brawl as well, as of now. So you have to remember, just because Tilt B's might be added, doesn't mean it's going to detract if the Tilt B additions are MODERATELY added. You can moderately add Aerial/Ground State B, Tap/Charge/Rapid Tap B's. It's not like "NOO.. ALL CHARACTERS MUST HAVE TILTS/CHARGES/GROUND/AERIAL STATE" It's, "Well, this would be interesting to add."

Furthermore, more moves doesn't equal more tier. It's the quality of the moves. Extra tilt B's might add to their weak recovery game but it won't provide them hitbox/priority advantage or even the precious KB to compete as well as say Metaknight's upB and his down smash for its start-up frames.

It's never about quantity of moves, it's all about quality, that determines a character's worth. You can't say that all characters in Brawl and Melee equally had moves that were equally powerful. Some characters had several moves that sucked so bad that they were just simply rarely used in their metagame, yet they could still compete. So in practice they used a smaller moveset than say Metaknight, but they still are competitive.

One more thing about more tilt-b's being complex or botching: This sounds right up the alley of what Sakurai WANTS. He would want a simplistic way to add new moves but give more room for error so the game is more randomized on player error and more fun for the newbie to compete with others who also make mistakes. Tripping was a hard-coded error introduction that was random (and seems to increase with certain maneuvers like pivoting or dashing into a hop/jump) I would argue that short-hopping is harder to master than TiltA's vs Smash A's with a thumbstick. I take tap-jump off and use x/y and even then, short-hop is not easily grasped for a newbie who has to quicken his button-release on the x/y just to get a short-hop out. Yet, short-hops still exists in the game and are fine by Sakurai. Newbies tend to play the game and utilize simplistic strategies without understanding the fine tunning. They will often botch their smashes with tilt's but not stop playing. How would this be any different if they pick up Mario with little to no Tilt B's (if introduced) and beating the veteran who's trying to master Peach (who may very well have Tilt B's) and making botches because of it?

 

[ryuu seika]

The point being made here is that special moves are the moves that feel special. This means that they are the most appealing moves to beginners. As such, the difficulty of performing specific specials has a massive impact on ease of play at a beginner level. This is why most beginners don't play Yoshi (he's particularly hard to control during specials).

We are all well past that stage here but we cannot assume that everyone playing the game is. We also cannot assume that we are the target audience as it has been made clear that we are not. These "beginners" are.

Sakurai included tripping as a random failure but what is significant is that play skill does not affect it. Tripping gives beginners an opening in which to get an advantage over good players just as often as the other way round. Good players, however, do not need this advantage. That means that tripping benefits the beginners most (or atleast hurts them least).

Now lets take a look at tilt specials. The effect this has will be apparent for all B moves but it will inevitably be more apparent in UpB. The usefulness of Tilt B and Smash B moves in any given situation cannot be made equal without them being the same. The best that can be hoped for is that their overall usefulness is about equal. As such, tilting when you mean to smash or vice versa will always be disadvantageous. In the case of recovery moves, often proving fatal.
This much isn't different to tripping really. What is is who benefits. Yes, everyone will fail at times but not everyone will fail equally often. Good players are much less likely to mix up tilts and smashes. This means this is the exact opposite of what Sakurai wants, punishing beginners for things they haven't learnt yet.

 

[Big-Cat]

Is everyone forgetting that Samus has a Tilt B and a Smash B?

Are you guys seriously suggesting that technical skill be done with? I know people who tried Smash for the first time and they couldn't do any of the stuff, even Smash attacks. Why not just have a Win button only? But wait, you don't want the losers to feel bad and be turned off by the game so everyone wins! /reductio ad absurdum

In all seriousness, I don't think anyone except for me and maybe Kenshinhan understand the significance of technical skill. While it is true that inputs shouldn't be super crazy, the idea for some things like quarter circles, links, etc. is so that there is freedom on the design of the character. Not only that, but the thing with technical skill is that the better you are with it, the more options you have. Compare the mobility options in Melee to Brawl. Melees ATs required practice, but it lets you do more with the controls than Brawl lets you.

And another thing, nothing is wrong with a skill gap in players. A multiplayer game is inherently competitive, there are gonna be people better than others be it that they're naturals or they put the time into it, just like anything else in life. I'm sorry if you want to just jump in and kick ***, but nothing in life is like that. I bet any one of you sucked at videogames when you first started playing them.

Heck, the point of the Wii series is to act as a Trojan horse for nongamers. Get them into gaming with something relatively simple, but then they'll either stop there or go look to see what other kinds of games there are. Nintendo knows that the casual market is volatile which is why they need to increase the number of core gamers.

 

[BirthNote]

More B moves? Has anyone ever thought of Special Throws?

Anyway I have 2..."proposals", 1 for DK and 1 for the Links.

We all know that DK has no DownB while in the air. So, what if he got that soundwave attack from Jungle Beat? In that game, DK claps so hard that a soundwave is produced. DK's clap in the GCN version of Jungle Beat is overpowered; which is why I think he should have a slightly downgraded version of the clap from the New Play Control! version. In this, his attack is directional instead of all around; so whenever DK's in the air, you can press Down&B and have him do that soundwave clap in a downward direction. It would be facing downward--no exceptions, and its reasonable for DK because his Hand Slap (aka the Down B he already has) move also relies on vibrations.

Now onto Link. We know that he has an optional follow up forward smash that comes after the first strike. Is it annoying to you guys that Link can't do anything with those smashes if his opponent gets behind him while he's still doing the attack? What if you had the option to turn the second Forward Smash into a type of Backslash (don't confuse it with the rhyming word before it)? Link slashes once, the opponent gets behind him while the first smash is being executed, and to the foe's surprise, Link immediately turns around and slices the opponent. Opinions?

And lastly (replying to Fawfulcopter), about the Diddy/Dixie team thing, I'm not enthusiastic. Someone can argue that a DK/Diddy team is possible (especially after DKCR), which kinda makes it better for each Kong to stand on their own.

 

[SuperMetroid44]

I don't think the Laughing Dog discussion was resolved. We kind of devolved from actual conversation to 'He didn't do anything in his game' 'but it makes perfect sense for him to do this and this and this' 'but he didn't do that in the game' 'but neither did ROB' 'well ROB is a robot, so of course he can fight' 'but dogs are notorious biters, and scratchers, and barkers, and pouncers' 'but it's a dog, so it's different' and so on.

But the point of my original question was NOT 'is this character able to have a good moveset', that discussion was for you to have with yourself and reach a logical conclusion. The one I came to was 'yes, yes he can', but I can certainly see why some think Laughing Dog(Which is a far better name than Duck Hunt Dog) couldn't fight.
But my question wasn't that. My question was 'is this character important, popular, and representative enough to be included?', which nobody has as of yet answered. So let's move away from this moveset nonsense, and discuss the character based on its merits and demerits. Ok? I'll start by showing my side of the argument.

Duck Hunt, along with SMB, were the launch titles for the NES that came pre-packaged in with it. Yes, we've got ROB representing the Hardware on the NES, but we don't really have a character representing the software of the NES. Oh sure, Ice Climbers kinda do, but their game wasn't all that popular, and several people had no idea who they were in Melee. Laughing Dog, on the other hand, is instantly recognizable by most people who'd buy this game, even if they haven't played it, as shooting the dog is one of the most overused video game jokes ever(In the same section as 'Toad's flipping you off' and 'He's got head damage because he hits bricks with his head(hint: He uses his fist)'.)
So he's recognizable, and he's got historical significance. I'd also say Duck Hunt is probably one of the most popular NES games; sure, of course Zeldas 1 and 2, Kirby, the Mario trilogy, Metroid, and a few others outrank it, but I'd say it's probably one of, if not the most popular NES-exclusive franchises(You seen Duck Hunt Wii yet? Nope.). And sure, people claim to hate Laughy here, but he's hated in the same way that Wario is hated, not the way Tingle is hated. He's not mean to you, he's mean to the disembodied crosshairs, in the same way Wario is mean to Mario.
Which brings me to my next point; he represents a genre thus far unrepresented in SSB; First Person Shooters. What's that? It's not an Eff-Pee-Ess? Yeah it is. Also, Pokemon Snap is. Don't say it isn't; it's in the first person, you're 'aiming' at 'enemies' using a 'crosshairs', and you can throw small, roundish objects that do different things, aka, Grenades.
Anyway, that's my 53 1/4 cents. Make of this what you will.

Oh, and if you really no longer wish to discuss Laughing Dog, how about a new topic?
What would you guys think if Diddy had Dixie added onto him as a combo Ice Climbers team and Zelda/Sheik tag-out? It'd represent a major part of the Donkey Kong Country series, and it'd allow for more Donkey Kong characters in one slot on the select screen.

The fact that we're calling the dog "Laughing Dog" or "Duck-Hunt Dog" already proves it's un-importance at that. Like look at the character, every character has a name and is recognizable. The only 2 that's names are iffy, is Ice Climbers and Mr. Game and Watch. Though, Ice Climbers names are Popo and Nana respectively, and Game and Watch has the Mr. part showing some type of importance. What about the dog? It's just called dog... that's not recognizable at all. If they were seriously going to add another old-time character, Little Mac or Balloon Fighter would be better.

Like, let's say they added a dog like "Nintendog" that has at least some arguements, as for one, you can name the dog. Two, the "Ninten" part is representing that's it's a... "Nintendo Dog", and etc. I'm sorry, just a little nitpick that adds to the reason I don't think that... "dog" from Duck Hunt can be playable.

 

[Big-Cat]

You forgot Pokemon Trainer, but he can easily be named Red.

 

[SuperMetroid44]

You forgot Pokemon Trainer, but he can easily be named Red.

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about him. Thanks for reminding me. x.x

But yeah, that's what it is. I know someone is going to argue "WHAT ABOUT PIKACHU AND JIGGLYPUFF" but those 2 Pokemon are recognized by those names, through anime and the games. The dog is still just called dog.

 

[Shorts]

Okay, now I see where you went wrong.

For the record, DK and Wario are no more "inferior by virtue of being a spin-off" to Mario than The Simpsons are to the Tracey Ullman Show. Considering how divorced from Mario these series are and how successful they are on their own, it's kinda ignorant to hold them back on their vague connections to their origin

No I realize that it sounds stupid, but the reason I said this is because whenever a new mario sports game comes out, we see Donkey Kong and usually Diddy as main characters. But who do we see as these vague filler characters? King K. Rool and Dixie. It just feels weird to me to see these characters who have been degrated to lower than Waluigi status get in smash. Especially over characters who (as far as I know) haven't had their name strewn through mud. Does anyone see Caeda/Black Knight being thrown into sports spin offs as filler? Not that I see.

In a sense, my big issue is the lack of respect Donkey Kong's creator has for his own original characters. I personally love Donkey Kong characters for the most part. Dixie and K. Rool are two of my favorites, so don't think I just dislike them. That isn't the case.

 

[Arcadenik]

The fact that we're calling the dog "Laughing Dog" or "Duck-Hunt Dog" already proves it's un-importance at that. Like look at the character, every character has a name and is recognizable. The only 2 that's names are iffy, is Ice Climbers and Mr. Game and Watch. Though, Ice Climbers names are Popo and Nana respectively, and Game and Watch has the Mr. part showing some type of importance. What about the dog? It's just called dog... that's not recognizable at all. If they were seriously going to add another old-time character, Little Mac or Balloon Fighter would be better.

Like, let's say they added a dog like "Nintendog" that has at least some arguements, as for one, you can name the dog. Two, the "Ninten" part is representing that's it's a... "Nintendo Dog", and etc. I'm sorry, just a little nitpick that adds to the reason I don't think that... "dog" from Duck Hunt can be playable.

I don't think names aren't that important like you think. The dog from Duck Hunt has no name but anyone who knows their video game history/culture knows who that dog is. That dog goes by several fan nicknames that appropriately describe him - Duck Hunt Dog, Laughing Dog, Hunting Dog, etc. - but it seems that Nintendo of America, or at least the Nintendo Power magazine, calls him simply "Dog". Probably because that's what he is - a dog.

In the Japanese version of Brawl, R.O.B. is called simply "Robot" because that's what he is - a Famicom Robot. The Ice Climbers are called "Ice Climber" - singular form - because that's the name of the game they came from. Mr. Game & Watch is simply called "Game & Watch" because he is the amalgamation of many nameless protagonist in the Game & Watch series. It is very likely the dog would be called "Duck Hunt" because that's the name of the game the dog came from.

You actually think that if we got "Dog" in Smash, people wouldn't know who he is? Please, once they see ducks, clay pigeons, the NES Zapper, and hear his infamous laugh, they will immediately know who the dog is regardless of his lack of an official name.

It is pretty interesting that a nameless dog from a NES game that came out in 1985 is still more well-known and more recognizable than the majority of Nintendo characters who have names throughout Nintendo's history (except for those who are playable in Melee/Brawl).

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Anyway I have 2..."proposals", 1 for DK and 1 for the Links.

We all know that DK has no DownB while in the air. So, what if he got that soundwave attack from Jungle Beat?
[...]
What if you had the option to turn the second Forward Smash into a type of Backslash (don't confuse it with the rhyming word before it)?

Both sound pretty sweet, I vote yes.

I'm sorry if you want to just jump in and kick ***, but nothing in life is like that. I bet any one of you sucked at videogames when you first started playing them.

There are plenty of video games where you start out kicking *** (and not like fighting rats or something). Those kinds of games tend to be way more successful than the... you know what, we've done this so many times I might as well not bother.

Also there ARE things in real life that have you kick *** immediately. "Life is unfair" works both ways.

No I realize that it sounds stupid, but the reason I said this is because whenever a new mario sports game comes out, we see Donkey Kong and usually Diddy as main characters. But who do we see as these vague filler characters? King K. Rool and Dixie. It just feels weird to me to see these characters who have been degrated to lower than Waluigi status get in smash. Especially over characters who (as far as I know) haven't had their name strewn through mud. Does anyone see Caeda/Black Knight being thrown into sports spin offs as filler? Not that I see.

It's not "strewn the mud" if these guys are showing up as team players and not captains in a Mario baseball game. That's not their place, it's a MARIO game. Mario games don't get to decide how important characters from other series are.

There's a certain level of absurdity in suggesting that those two (or any Fire Emblem character) would be more entitled to an appearance in Smash than Dixie or K. Rool, but it'd mostly just be me calling you dumb for thinking that, so I'd rather pass.

In a sense, my big issue is the lack of respect Donkey Kong's creator has for his own original characters. I personally love Donkey Kong characters for the most part. Dixie and K. Rool are two of my favorites, so don't think I just dislike them. That isn't the case.

Unimportant Mario spinoffs aside, the only "lack of respect" DK characters get is the lack of some of them in DKCR and Jungle Beat. There'll be more DK games and those characters will be in it, I bet my new car on that.

 

[Kenshinhan]

I'd like to be pointed out to a sucessful game that targets adults and kids, that's not a puzzle game (like Bomberman), that pits you against other players (not the CPU) and being hugely successful and somehow simplistic.

Most simplistic, easy to learn games get beaten relatively easy in 1player mode, and have little to no replay value in that mode. Games that are multiplayer and simplistic have traditionally been puzzle games that rely more on the mind than actual hand-eye coordination or knowing the ins-and-outs of frame data for character movement/abilities.

Smash Bro is A FIGHTING GAME. Most fighting games are not that simplistic and highly comeptitive. It's inevitable unless you dumb it down to the point of rock-paper-scissors.

Edit: I will admit that I've long since forgotten about Samus' tilt B homing missile vs her Smash B power missile. Only because she sucks so bad in Brawl and I don't play Brawl much anymore. In Melee however, Samus as my main because of her nasty recovery, down smash, missiles and missile cancelling, some of her A tilts(love Up A tilt and Side A tilt), aerials (They were all useful), upB (her only grace since she sucks at shield grab), and wavedashing.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Let's look at some 2010 sales for Nintendo alone:

* Wii Sports - 12.19 million (75.6 million lifetime)
* Wii Sports Resort - 10.21 million (26.35 million lifetime)
* New Super Mario Bros. Wii - 6.58 million (21.28 million lifetime)
* Super Mario Galaxy 2 - 6.15 million (6.15 million lifetime)
* Wii Fit Plus - 5.09 million (17.74 million lifetime)
* Wii Party - 5.07 million (5.07 million lifetime)
* Donkey Kong Country Returns - 4.21 million (4.21 million lifetime)
* Mario Kart Wii - 3.95 million (26.50 million lifetime)

* Pokemon Black/White - 5.32 million (5.32 million lifetime)
* New Super Mario Bros. - 3.73 million (26.21 million lifetime)
* Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver - 3.32 million (11.72 million lifetime)
* Mario Kart DS - 2.80 million (20.70 million lifetime)

Brawl is currently at around 9.3 million or so. Melee was 7.06 or something. Most fighting games are extremely lucky to break 1 million.

EDIT: For the record, Nintendo is the only company to ever sell a retail game for more than 20 million copies. This chart lists six.