[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[SuperMetroid44]

LOL...well, for all intents and purposes, R.O.B. was only "relevant" for two games released all the way back in 1985 (21 years before 2006, the time the roster for Brawl was "supposedly" finalized"). Everything since then has just been mere cameos in series where there are way more prominent characters (Kirby, Fox, Wario, Captain Falcon, and Captain Olimar). Technically, R.O.B. shouldn't be viable for SSB either if Geno isn't.

Wow, you're points are mostly illogical. First off, R.O.B. was a important device back in the day of the N.E.S., it was very popular in the day, and lets not only mention that he's made cameos and appearences in other games as well (Mario Kart DS, Pikmin, etc. etc.) Geno was in one un-important Mario RPG game, he made an appearence in another game but that was just a cameo. Having Geno in Brawl is just like having a Paper Mario partner in the game; there unimportant, and thus, don't deserve it.

I only brought up Pikachu's potential removal because technically, he could be in the exact same position as Jigglypuff is were it not for the anime. Before the Pokemon anime's debut, Pikachu was "just another generic Pokemon", just like the other 150 Pokemon at the time. But the anime producers decided to use him as the "starter" and main partner Pokemon of the anime's main character (Ash Ketchum). Only through repeated appearances in the anime, and being the main partner of said anime's main character, was Pikachu able to catapult to mascot status. Now, it would be absurd to even consider Pikachu's removal, but without the anime and mascot status, Pikachu would be banking on veteran status just like Jigglypuff is.
The Pokemon anime along with Game Freak's input seems to be a major factor in determining Pokemon representation in Brawl. If the anime never existed to augment the popularity of Pikachu and Jigglypuff, I honestly don't know which Pokemon would "qualify" for Smash. Probably starter Pokemon, version mascots, and legendary Pokemon...

Are you freaking serious? Pikachu's the mascot of Pokemon, the anime increased his popularity, but I think Nintendo already had there sets on making Pikachu the mascot of Pokemon, since I have seen popularity for Pikachu before the anime, I don't think they just randomly chose a Pokemon and said "Hey, I know, Pikachu can be the mascot!" it had to of started before. so COULD is not valid.

Where the freak are all these "Jigglypuff" fans coming from that I keep on hearing mentioned? Aside from Smash contexts where people adore her or think she flat-out "sucks" and references to the singing/scribbling anime Jigglypuff, I hardly ever hear her being mentioned in Pokemon discussions. Of the original 151, Mons like Charizard, Mewtwo, Blastoise, Gyarados, and Dragonite seem to dominate the discussions of "favorite/popular Pokemon" in my experiences... I've heard Jigglypuff is mainly favored in Japan, but in the U.S., it's been very different in my experience. And often when I've talked to Smash fans, when the idea for an SSB4 roster comes up, the frequent answer is "Take out Jigglypuff and put in/bring back [insert character here, usually it's Mewtwo]", so even her popularity in Smash seems to be questionable. So again, I honestly haven't seen much of her so-called "popularity" outside of Smash (and inside of Smash, it doesn't seem to be looking that good either, especially when concerning Mewtwo).

OMG, I don't know where to begin... First off, what do you mean "frequent" answer? I have rarely seen people say "Replace Jigglypuff with Mewtwo" please get your facts straight. I have seen people who want Mewtwo back, but I have not seen them say replace Jigglypuff. And there's plenty of discussion of Jigglypuff, what are you even talking about? Of course Jigglypuff isn't like the most popular Pokemon, but she's up there, and that's thanks to numerous reasons, as I mentioned in my previous post. And why do you keep bringing up Mewtwo? Mewtwo's popularity is far worse than Jiggs so I don't know where you are getting these facts, or rather "opinions".

As for R.O.B., I really don't see his "relevance" in modern times. He was only used for two games, both of which are years old now. Yeah, he "cameos", but other than that he's not being used today, and from my experience, he wasn't that popular, either. And from what I'm getting, he had a short product life-span to boot...if he's so "iconic", I'd figure Nintendo would use him for more than two games. Between the 5 years of the NES release and the SNES release, you'd think they'd used him for something. I wasn't there when the NES was released, but even when I read references to it in videogaming articles and magazines, I hardly ever hear about R.O.B. or his games - Brawl was the first time I actually got acquainted with him to start learning about his history.

...Really, you're debates are really freaking horrible. So just cuz R.O.B.'s old and according to you "hasn't been in a game years" means he's not iconic? So I guess Ice Climber isn't iconic? And Kid Icarus? Once again, you're logic is disappointing. Just cuz a character or a "item" hasn't appeared in something for a while doesn't mean it's not iconic, R.O.B. is iconic since not only was it a cool accessory, he a part to play in saving the video game industry. But I guess that's not "iconic" to you cuz he hasn't been in games for a while. :rollseyes:

As for Game & Watch...that may have been due to me not being around when his consoles were released either, but I don't hear mentions of him either. I first discovered him while researching the Nintendo DS, where I heard that the Game & Watch console bears a striking resemblance to the DS. If G&W is "All-Star" as well, Nintendo didn't do a good job of promoting him in the 90s and/or making it seem that way, IMO... I mean, in that case I would've heard of him well before 2001-2003.

What about the Game and Watch games released on the GameBoy? Some of those were released in 1997 on the GameBoy, I guess that's not promoting Game and Watch by re-releasing games. :rollseyes:

If Ice Climbers were the only ones included for "retro" and representing something "larger than themselves", exactly why is Pit in Brawl? Isn't he meant to represent the "retro" crowd as well? Additionally, his few games were overshadowed by Metroid, so he isn't "All-Star" either. The only other factor is his apparently "large" fanbase prior to Brawl, and as we've seen with Sonic and Midna, fan popularity, however large, cannot guarantee inclusion in Smash.

Ice Climbers were also included cuz Sakurai liked them, and how do you know that's the ONLY reason there in? Again, assuming. >.> Pit was most likely in due to retro, he was slightly popular, but I don't think by much at the time. I don't know if that's the exact reason, but it's likely. Brawl sky-rocketed his popularity. Midna? Midna is not even that popular anymore, comparing her popularity with Sonic's is a joke.

 

[Big-Cat]

I might be wrong on this, but I think when the first Pokemon games were released, Gamefreak didn't have a defined Pokemon mascot. Rather, they "ran a popularity contest" that included all the Pokemon. Whoever was the most popular Pokemon would be the mascot. Pikachu won that contest.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

And one more fact : the very first Pokémon created by GameFreak was Rhydon, which got pwned by the mascot by aiming a Thunderbolt at the horn. But I guess everyone know this.

 

[ryuu seika]

Hence why Rhydon had thunderbolt in PS?

 

[mystery_dungeon]

And one more fact : the very first Pokémon created by GameFreak was Rhydon, which got pwned by the mascot by aiming a Thunderbolt at the horn. But I guess everyone know this.

At least it wasn't finished off by False Swipe.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

At least it wasn't finished off by False Swipe.

And you didn't use Thunder as armor

 

[Jigster]

Many people seem to want jigglypuff out , that's not fair , what about us , the ones who main jiggly? we have played with jigglypuff all the way from 64 to brawl , it wouldn't be fair to take jiggly out.
Also I want jigglypuff's rest to come back , brawl was so mean to some characters (Link,Ganon,Jiggly,Zelda) they like , went ahead and made them trash , in melee jigglypuff was a high tier , way better than a lot of characters , so yeah wouldn't be nice to take it out.
Also i think no more pokémon characters should be added , we have enough of them.
Maybe Marx would be a nice addition to the kirby franchise
no more mario chars ( donkey is a spin off but at the same time is sorta a mario char , same as Wario)
i'd like to see starfy making an apparence , and more metroid chars as well ,Roy back too ; 3; ike's too slow XD

 

[Shorts]

Hey guys! So this cat here is gonna do a new poll, but I want character choice help from all of you. I'm looking for:

Choices for each individual franchise
Between 4 and 12 character's for each franchise.
Any new franchise characters will be all posted in a multiple choice box so put the game they are from behind there name (same goes for retro and 3rd party)

And for you to PM me your choices, i wouln't post them here.

Thanks to all (if any) for the help When I get a finalized copy with enough input from people I'll post it here for your final opinions. I wanna try to make a good one so everyone is welcome to help!

I would loooove to hear lists from Toise, Kuma, Pieman, Nik, Spydr, Augusto, Fatman and Ryuu especially Shanks!

 

[Arcadenik]

Guess what? I do main Jigglypuff and I still want her removed. I never cared about Jigglypuff in the Pokemon games or the anime. The only reason why I play as Jigglypuff as often as I do with my other mains is because I like her play style, not because I like the Pokemon itself.

 

[SmashChu]

not because I like the Pokemon itself.

Says the person with a Pokemon avatar.

But why would we remove Jigglypuff now? She's been in the last three games constantly.

 

[Arcadenik]

Says the person with a Pokemon avatar.

But why would we remove Jigglypuff now? She's been in the last three games constantly.

Yes, I have a Pokemon avatar but notice how it does not feature Jigglypuff at all? There are quite a few Pokemon I actually like and Jigglypuff is not one of those Pokemon I like. My god, just because I don't like the Pokemon itself does not mean I don't like all the other Pokemon.

Yes, she has been in the last three games for now. I think it is not fair to the other Pokemon who could potentially have been made into Smash fighters to be screwed over again and again for that spot on the roster (and we all know that there is a limited number of spots on the roster) because Jigglypuff have been playable in more Smash games and she just takes that spot again and again.

It is time for a change.

 

[DekuBoy]

No. This game isn't about representation. As I think Kuma said ages ago, it's not a Nintendo United Nations. We take the characters we're given and like it. Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Guess what? I do main Jigglypuff and I still want her removed. I never cared about Jigglypuff in the Pokemon games or the anime. The only reason why I play as Jigglypuff as often as I do with my other mains is because I like her play style, not because I like the Pokemon itself.

That's the case with many characters here. No one actually thinks or cares about the characters within. They just think about how to win using that specific character. That's the case with many fighters and brawlers. Of course, Nintendo did have a motto called, "The player is the Main Character."

Mario Mario(Red M) is just a logo. He has no character. He shows no emotions. He's just a face(of the company itself). He's completely generic. But many fans liked his fighting playstyle, even if it is easy and boring(he was always meant for beginners).

Donkey Kong (Jr?) is just a giant ape with a necktie.Even those that actually played his games don't really see the character within(if he has any character at all). I liked playing with him because he is one of the faster Mighty Glaicers(Heavyweights).

"Link" actually benefits from this. He was ALWAYS meant to be just a simple, generic avatar for the player. Just a simple tool the Gods created to clean up whatever mess evil makes. His playstyle in SSB is lackluster, though.

Samus Aran is is(as I said before) just a animated suit of powered armor. Players just see a simple badass within(Hell, some players STILL don't know that Samus is female). They don't care about her actual character(and some even WANT it that way) and what's actually inside the suit is just simple FANSERVICE! Her playstyles(Power Suit and Zero Suit) are debatable.

"Yoshi the Dinosaur" is just one of the many Yoshies in his series. Barely shows any character. Though, I could be exaggerating. His playstyle is a bit akward.

Kirby(The Star Warrior?) is argubaly one of the better examples. HAL Laboratory Inc.(or at least Masahiro Sakurai himself) wanter to give the pink blob a lot of emotion in his games(hard to showcase in 32-bit) so the pink blob kinda stays in character in SSB(biasity? you tell me). His playstyle varies.

Fox McCloud is debateable. Those that have played his games might have recongized his character. Those that haven't probably just see an anthromorpic canine with an attitude ready to kick some ***(or tail). It helps that he has(or had) one of the best gameplay aspect in the series(SSB, not his own). A plus for a Fragile Speedster(Lightweight).

No. 25, Pikachu is just a simple Pikachu. One of many(read Yoshi above). If it's suppose to be based on THE mascot itself(from the animated series, the Electric Tale of Pikachu Manga, and many spinoff titles like Hey You, Pikachu), they it's not really showcased here. Just a simple animal. His playstyle is debatable.

Captain Douglas Jay Falcon is one of the worst offenders. Players only see him as "That guy with broken engrish who can FALCON PAUNCH," whether they actually played F-ZERO or not. Those that play F-ZERO majority see his vehicle(No. 07, Blue Falcon) and not much of the pilot himself. His playstyle, though, is one of the best. He's a Lighting Bruiser(High Speed AND Power)

No. 39. Jigglypuff(Purin in Nippon) is the same with Pikachu.

Luigi Mario(Green L) is also better that most. He has more personality than his older, yer shorter brother(in fact, he has more personality than any of the main characters in his respective series), and his playstyle sources(he's slower than his bro and a bit clumsy, but has a higher jump and stronger knockback) is showcased well here in SSB

Ness... yyyeah. Even those that did play his game didn't get much character from him. Of the 3 EarthBound(MOTHER in Nippon) protagonists, he was the most generic(Ninten was a worried slob with a cold and Lucas was a wuss with a terrible childhood.), so , like Link, this actually benefits him. The only think hes has over Link is that in his own game, he DOES talk(he said one thing. That's it). His playstyle in SSB is one of the hardest to use. He's mainly for experts only.

I'll probably mention the 2nd Generation Smashers some other time.

No. This game isn't about representation. As I think Kuma said ages ago, it's not a Nintendo United Nations. We take the characters we're given and like it. Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere.

Kinda wish it was. Ninty does need something like that, IMO.

 

[Big-Cat]

What about their playstyles? I'm confused as to what the heck you're talking about.

@DekuBoy
I said Smash wasn't a Nintendo Congress. I hate to be anal, but Congress would be a better description than UN since the number of congressmen per state is based on state populations.

 

[Fatmanonice]

No. This game isn't about representation. As I think Kuma said ages ago, it's not a Nintendo United Nations. We take the characters we're given and like it. Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere.

This. We're largely given characters that people want and the rest is what Sakurai wants. For example, Ganondorf was only added in Melee because he had a similar body structure to Captain Falcon. Sakurai didn't even care that he was one of the top 10 most wanted characters for Melee or that he's Nintendo's second biggest villian, he did it because he was conveniently easy to add in. In short, popularity helps but Sakurai still trumps any other factors.

Speaking of Sakurai, what do you guys think about him being director of the next game? Do you think they should move onto someone else? Do you think they'd be able to find someone even suitable to take on the job? Thoughts?

 

[Big-Cat]

After Brawl, I'd rather see him not return as director. If fans came make a more enticing game with Project M, then I'd like to see someone else take the helm.

I think they should move onto someone else, but it should be someone who cares about both the casual AND the tournament players (I have never seen a divide like this with any other fighter). Yoshinori Ono has that idea, but he served as producer for SFIV, not the director. Ideally, the person in charge should have experience making fighting games.

Knowing Nintendo though, it probably won't happen, but it'd be great if Nintendo would regularly communicate with their fans normally like Capcom does. At least then they can hopefully stop thinking they know what we want.

 

[Arcadenik]

Kuma, I am confused, too. Why is asia_catdog_blue talking about the Smash fighters' backgrounds when it has nothing to do with playstyle?

When I said I liked Jigglypuff's playstyle even though I don't like the Pokemon itself, I meant that I liked how Jigglypuff plays in Smash. I like juggling the opponents with walls of pain and doing hit-and-runs with Rollout. I actually enjoy winning matches with Jigglypuff even though I really don't care about this Pokemon in the Pokemon games nor in the anime and would rather see other Pokemon instead of Jigglypuff. It is just that I would like to see new Pokemon with new playstyles besides the same old Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Mewtwo (if he comes back). That's why I preferred Pokemon Trainer over Lucario in Brawl - he brought something new on the table. Even if SSB4 disappoints me with Jigglypuff's inclusion again, I will still play with Jigglypuff and still want her out in SSB5.

Sometimes I feel like SSB4 is just gonna be Brawl but with more characters. That would be something I am looking for in a remake, but it isn't what I want in a sequel... it is like buying Street Fighter IV, only to find out that Super Street Fighter IV is coming and it has all the same characters but with a few new characters. I guess that's why I found Street Fighter III to be a refreshing change after all those remakes of Street Fighter II.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

It is time for a change.

Oh please. You always suggest rotating characters, but you really just want to replace X with your personal favorite Y. Try being less selfish.

Speaking of Sakurai, what do you guys think about him being director of the next game? Do you think they should move onto someone else? Do you think they'd be able to find someone even suitable to take on the job? Thoughts?

Hope he stays. Not sure who I'd want to replace him, probably because I'm not too confident in anyone else's ability to handle this series in particular.

 

[DekuBoy]

What about their playstyles? I'm confused as to what the heck you're talking about.

@DekuBoy
I said Smash wasn't a Nintendo Congress. I hate to be anal, but Congress would be a better description than UN since the number of congressmen per state is based on state populations.

My mistake, but you probably get a kick out of being quoted.

Also, if it was a congress thingy, I would want Ninten in. I just like him.

 

[Arcadenik]

Toise, how about all those people suggesting that Lucario be replaced with Mewtwo in SSB4? Is that not being selfish? Or keep Lucario, add Mewtwo, and keep the other playable Pokemon, potentially screwing over the other potential new Pokemon like Zoroark, Meowth, and other starter Pokemon?

I can see it now... SSB4, keep all Brawl Pokemon, add Mewtwo for a max of 5 slots. SSB5, keep all SSB4 Pokemon, add a new Pokemon for a max of 6 slots because we cannot rotate character X for character Y because that's selfish and will make people upset but they will be more upset if we didn't throw them a new Pokemon to chew on. SSB6, keep the same trend and so on because Status Quo is God.

Oh, Kuma, I would probably think that wanting to replace Sakurai with Game Developer Y is a bit selfish, too, since all you really want is SSB4 to be like Melee (since it apparently appealed to both casual players and tournament players) if I interpreted Toise's words to me like that and applied it to your position.

*sigh*

 

[DekuBoy]

I don't understand. What's so unappealing to you about keeping old characters and getting new ones?

 

[Big-Cat]

He believes there to be a series rep cap.

Arc, you have to look at characters not for the generation or series they're from, but their playstyle and if it brings anything new to the table. Jigglypuff will stay because she's widely considered to be the Queen of the Air (in Melee at least) and that is her defining trait. Like with the whole Starfox rep thing, if Krystal provides a new style to play as, she'll be put in, or however the developers see fit.

As I've iterated hundreds of times, Smash Bros. is meant to be a fanservice heavy game with fanservice from throughout Nintendo's gaming history, not just what's hot now.

There's no sense in constantly recycling characters out. You should keep characters in each iteration in for a few reasons. First, you don't want to piss off fans by taking out a character, unless you're very limited for roster space for some reason. Second, you don't want to eliminate a playstyle option.

And I don't want SSB4 to be like Melee. I want what Brawl should've been, an evolution from Melee's design. Brawl was a step back, not a step forward. At the very least, I'd like to see that Sakurai realizes that depth and accessibility are not mutually exclusive since we have evidence of other competitively played fighters having their share of casual players.

 

[Jigster]

Toise, how about all those people suggesting that Lucario be replaced with Mewtwo in SSB4? Is that not being selfish? Or keep Lucario, add Mewtwo, and keep the other playable Pokemon, potentially screwing over the other potential new Pokemon like Zoroark, Meowth, and other starter Pokemon?

I can see it now... SSB4, keep all Brawl Pokemon, add Mewtwo for a max of 5 slots. SSB5, keep all SSB4 Pokemon, add a new Pokemon for a max of 6 slots because we cannot rotate character X for character Y because that's selfish and will make people upset but they will be more upset if we didn't throw them a new Pokemon to chew on. SSB6, keep the same trend and so on because Status Quo is God.

Oh, Kuma, I would probably think that wanting to replace Sakurai with Game Developer Y is a bit selfish, too, since all you really want is SSB4 to be like Melee (since it apparently appealed to both casual players and tournament players) if I interpreted Toise's words to me like that and applied it to your position.

*sigh*

well um , i only say that if rotating characters (aka changing x for y) means to take out one of the traditional characters (yeah jiggly might not be as famous as pika or other characters , but is like a very very recurrent character when it comes to pokemon , reason why it has been in all the pokemon games , which neither mewtwo,meowth,lucario or zoroark have been) then i rather stay with the x characters , besides , you might not care about jigglypuff , as a lot of people just go on and are like "meh" and use it for fun, but i don't really know how to play as another character , i've been a champion in some tourneys , about 3 (look up pooch on youtube that's my name thingy , there must be videos , i believe) and if they take it out ..how would i ever play? :T 'sides taking jiggly out from smash bros , is like taking ness out (they have about the same popularity) so yeah

 

[Arcadenik]

Thank you Kuma. That's what I believe. Let us assume that Smash 4 is getting 50 characters, how many character slots do you think each series should be appropriately allotted to? If we determine that five slots is appropriate for the Pokemon series, which Pokemon should take these slots?

Pikachu, of course... he is the mascot after all. Pokemon Trainer would be nice, too... that's two slots and now we have three slots left. What if we bring back Jigglypuff and Lucario, too? Sure, that's four. Hey, Mewtwo was great in Melee so he should totally come back! Okay, that's five. Hey, what about Zoroark or Meowth? Oh, no, we have enough Pokemon already. And then we start debating about cutting old characters for new characters.

That is the same situation with the Mario series. One more character slot seems appropriate for the Mario series if the roster is going to have about 50 characters but we also don't want to add too many Mario characters. That's why we keep going in circles with the Bowser Jr. vs. Toad vs. Paper Mario vs. Geno debates for the fifth Mario slot.

The problem with the Pokemon series is that it practically moves on past the older Pokemon for the newer Pokemon that we are pretty much left with just Pikachu. That pretty much leaves several slots up for grabs and yet people assume that these slots are reserved for Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, and Lucario as if they are always relevant to the Pokemon series with only one slot up for grabs. The Pokemon series is not like the Mario series where Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser are always relevant to the Mario series with all the other Mario characters becoming relevant in one game and suddenly becoming irrelevant in the next game... so these four slots are reserved for Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser and it leaves us with just one slot up for grabs.

 

[SmashChu]

Speaking of Sakurai, what do you guys think about him being director of the next game? Do you think they should move onto someone else? Do you think they'd be able to find someone even suitable to take on the job? Thoughts?

He should definatly stay. Seeing at how Marvel vs Capcom 3 is going, I can say no one can do the game like Sakurai.

What people take for granted is the kind of things he thinks about. Take characters. A lot of fans wanted an Animal Crossing character, but he didn't add on on the grounds that "Animal Crossing is meant for fighting." It may seem strange, but Sakurai was thinking on how people would perceive the character being in.

The reason I bring up Marvel vs Capcom 3, is because the designer don't add characters because they are good, but because they, like the people here, think about representation and what is "unique." They are not going to add Megaman, their company mascot, on the grounds that he is not unique. Of course, they added X32, a character people universally hate, because they wanted a young female character from Marvel. Sakurai has made three great games in part because he looks at what is a good character, not necessarily what fans want or who would be interesting. This is why the rosters always feel fresh.

All in all, people take Sakurai for granted.

After Brawl, I'd rather see him not return as director. If fans came make a more enticing game with Project M, then I'd like to see someone else take the helm.

I would hate it if "fans," design the games. Fans don't make good games. We talk a lot about other fighting games, but let's look at Team Fortress 2, or Valve in general. The one thing I hate about that game is they let "fans," design everything. They take fan made maps, which are good for fan maps, and post them along side their maps and say "We are releasing these fan maps as official maps." I didn't buy the game for fan content, I bought it for Valve content. They do the same thing for weapons.

If you make games "for the fans," you immediately limit your market. Your basically saying "we are making this game only for people who already bought our game." Sakurai never focuses on the fans and just tries to make a good game. A reason why sales go up with each release.

I think they should move onto someone else, but it should be someone who cares about both the casual AND the tournament players (I have never seen a divide like this with any other fighter). Yoshinori Ono has that idea, but he served as producer for SFIV, not the director. Ideally, the person in charge should have experience making fighting games.

Capcom loves to spit out "for casual and competitive players." They think that the VS series appeal to casuals because "it's big laser shooting action. Look, the robot is 50 feet tall." I remember talking to a guy who said something along the lines of "I use to like fighting games, but when they became too fast, they felt like button mashers." To this day, Capcom can not make for these "casuals," In truth, there is no middle ground. When you try to say "we are really making it for both," you are actually saying "We are making it for tournament players, but we think other people could like it."

The reason there is no middle ground is because the minute you start making the game for the best players is when you create barriers for everyone else. Everquest hit that problem. The best guild in the game, who played for hours on end, kept getting bored with the game; they demanded more. So the developers made more. But they would beat these high level places in days and demand more, and they got more. But the lower end players kept getting left behind as all the energy is focused on making these better players happy. The thing is, the top wants more challenge. These people play the game day in and day out and have mastered it. They find Brawl boring because they mastered the faster Melee and wanted something faster. Instead, Sakurai wanted to make it appeal to people who did not play Smash and made it slower. To appeal to these top players, he would have had to make the game faster and add in traits that give the better players more tool to win, all things that push away the lower player. World of Warcraft became so big because they did the opposite of what Everquest did: love the low end.

Thank you Kuma. That's what I believe. Let us assume that Smash 4 is getting 50 characters, how many character slots do you think each series should be appropriately allotted to? If we determine that five slots is appropriate for the Pokemon series, which Pokemon should take these slots?

Pikachu, of course... he is the mascot after all. Pokemon Trainer would be nice, too... that's two slots and now we have three slots left. What if we bring back Jigglypuff and Lucario, too? Sure, that's four. Hey, Mewtwo was great in Melee so he should totally come back! Okay, that's five. Hey, what about Zoroark or Meowth? Oh, no, we have enough Pokemon already. And then we start debating about cutting old characters for new characters..

The whole reason you don't want Jigglypuff is because you just want Meowth, a character no one wants but you. Which is why I find this silly. It's Duck Hunt Dog all over again.

Remember that Sakurai adds good characters. He doesn't limit it simply because "We shouldn't have that many." This is why we were planed for Mewtwo and Lucario.

 

[Arcadenik]

Ding ding! You win the grand prize! I never made it a secret anyway.

Oh, and Smashchu, why are you still speaking for everyone else? When you say "no one wants but you", you are saying that no one in the whole Earth wants Meowth except for me and only me. That is not true except in your mind. You are not the voice of us all - if you were, we all would not be debating with you about the roster and the gameplay.

And yes, both Mewtwo and Lucario were planned for Brawl. But the fact still remains, Mewtwo is out and Lucario is in. Why? Let us take out the all-encompassing "the original 12 should stay" and "many fans would be upset if you remove X or replace X with Y" reasons, what makes Jigglypuff greater than Mewtwo? Why should Jigglypuff stay and Mewtwo get the cut when Mewtwo is the more popular one? Why should Jigglypuff return in SSB4?

On a side note, I am pretty satisfied with the Marvel vs. Capcom 3 roster. Even though they removed almost half of the Marvel vs. Capcom 2 roster, they added in many interesting newcomers and quite a few of them were already my favorites in their games (Amaterasu, Arthur, Haggar). You guys, just because Brawl removed five characters doesn't mean the roster was ruined FOREVER, especially when Brawl added 18 brand-new characters (even though three of them were clones) for us to play and enjoy. Why cannot the same be true for SSB4?

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I've been lurking on this debate for a bit now and decided I might as well chime in. I've got a few points and a speculative character list to add.

WARNING! MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT!

1.) Why are we so heated over which characters to remove? Shouldn't we be more focused on trying to predict what characters will be added. Honestly, I believe that they only removed Mewtwo because of time restraints. He'll likely be back next game (IMO), but not at the expense of Jiggly or Lucario.

2.) I'm with Kuma that characters would likely be selected based on playstyle, not on what's "hip" in the Nintendo scene. How else do you explain Ice Climbers? Brawl isn't exclusively fanservice- it's a game in it's own right.

3.) I personally do believe it's a risk to bring Sakurai back due to his stance on how a game should be made; although I prefer Brawl to Melee, there were some things that were added or removed in Brawl that were an unnecessary waste of time and money (stickers and pratfalling, mainly). However, it's also a huge risk to bring in a new developer, as he may try to take the game in the wrong direction (too serious, too complex, etc) One thing I wholeheartedly agree on, though, is that the next developer should take the fans into consideration more.

And now, the speculative character list I came up with (just newcomers, since I already specified that there would be no removals)

Super Mario
-Bowser Jr.
-Paper Mario

Donkey Kong
-King K. Rool

Yoshi
-Kamek

The Legend of Zelda
-Redo of Ganondorf's movelist

Metroid
-Ridley

Star Fox
-Krystal

F-Zero
-Samurai Goroh

Pokemon
-Zoroark

Fire Emblem
-Micaiah

Custom Robo
-Ray MK

Duck Hunter
-Duck Hunter

Captain N: The Game Master
-Captain N

Sonic the Hedgehog
-Knuckles

Castlevania
-Simon Belmont

Megaman
-Megaman

Final Fantasy
-Black Mage

Now, some points about the list in general

1.) It's 17 characters, no need to count. For comparison, Melee added 13 characters, 1 of which had 1 alternate form, and 6 were clones. Brawl added 16, 1 of which was actually 3 characters, an alternate form was added, and 1 was a clone (I don't consider Wolf a clone, as he plays fairly differently from Fox and Falco) while removing 3 clones and 1 original character. So, moveset-wise, Melee added around 11 (counting clones as 1\2) and Brawl added 18.5 movesets. You may notice there's not that much of an increase. In fact, there's a decrease. That's so that focus can be added on the much-needed balance element (along with an improved singleplayer and definitely improved online)

2.) "OMG 4 NEW 3RD PARTIES THIS GUYS A ******!!!!" Yeah, there are a few reasons for that. One is that Brawl had (IMO) pretty poor 3rd party choices when it comes to their Nintendo-ness; Sega used to be Nintendo's rival company, while MGS was hardly ever associated with Nintendo. Although Knuckles falls under the same category of Sonic (he's just in there because of popularity and to give Sega a 2nd rep), Castlevania, Megaman, and early Final Fantasy are generally much more closely associated with Nintendo. Second is moveset potential, especially for Black Mage and Simon.

3.) No "new" LoZ characters. LoZ is my favorite Nintendo franchise, but there's no other major recurring characters left as of now except for Vaati, whom I've never really cared too much for.

Now here's some reasons I have for the individual characters;

Bowser Jr.- Very popular new character, has great moveset potential when armed with the paintbrush. Plus, Smash Bros. has a rather small rogue's gallery (consisting of only Bowser, Ganondorf, Wario, and Wolf in Brawl)

Paper Mario- A good rep of the RPG side of the Mario series, along with having good moveset potential due to his papery properties and fighting style consisting of hammers, aerial stunts, and partners.

King K. Rool- Again, Smash needs more villains. If his personality is kopied from DK64, it could result in some humorous antics in story mode as well. And his skills as both a projectile user and a boxer have moveset potential.

Kamek-I was trying to make all the original 10 series have more than 1 character in this set, and Kamek is the only other important Yoshi character other than (*gulp*) the Baby Mario Bros. Plus, yet another villain and I came up with a rather interesting moveset for him a while back that I could be persuaded to dig up.

Ganondorf redo- I and everyone who is even vaguely fond of the Zelda series that I know was pissed upon finding out the King of Evil was a Falcon clone. Being turned absolutely useless in Brawl was even worse. He has so much more potential with his combination of brutal swordfightning and black magic.

Ridley- Sorry about opening this particular can of worms, but it had to be done. He can be resized while remaining awesome. And besides, nothing worse can happen to him than Ganondorf in Brawl. Yet another villain and good moveset potential, especially since he'd likely be the largest and thus heaviest character in the game but would still be capable of flight.

Krystal- Moveset potential and shutting the fanboys up, mainly. Honestly, if 1 character from this list had to be cut, I'd pick her. Still, it would be interesting to see her moveset and it's always nice to have another character to appeal to girl gamers. Why her and not one of the other 2 fanboy-popular characters (Midna and Geno)? Both of them are 1-shot characters and Geno is owned by another company, and the licensing money would be better spent on a more popular character (Black Mage).

Samurai Goroh- Again, villains and original 10 rep. Plus, I'd like to see his fighting style, since he's a heavy guy fighting with a very light sword, while all the other heavy characters in the game wield heavy weapons.

Zoroark- Popular 5th gen rep. Great moveset potential with his focus on illusion as well.

Micaiah- Another female who is also a spellcaster. Plus, she's fairly popular and I believe the main hero of Radiant Dawn.

Ray MK- Moveset potential and adding a new Nintendo series so we'd have something other than retros and additions to other series.

Duck Hunter- Retro character along the lines of Ice Climbers or Pit. I originally considered Little Mac for this position, but Punch-Out! was recently revived and his fighting style would have been redundant with K. Rool. Anyhow, he'd have a pretty interesting moveset too, I'd imagine.

Captain N- A "WTF?!?!" character like Game & Watch and R.O.B. Can't think of much more to say.

Knuckles- Fan demand, mostly. I never played a Sonic game so I don't see much moveset potential, especially given Sonic's rather bland moveset in Brawl.

Simon Belmont- Hailing from one of the SNES's most popular games, Simon would add a very interesting personality and moveset to the game, as we have never had a true whip-fighter before, as Sheik only uses her whip for 1 attack and ZSS's whip doesn't operate like a "true" whip, as doesn't feature some whip characteristics (namely odd moving hitboxes and sweetspots).

Megaman- Again, never played a Megaman game, but he's pretty much synonymous with Nintendo's glory days. From the videos I've seen, he looks like he'd have a pretty cool moveset too.

Black Mage- Has appeared in quite a few past and present Nintendo games. We could use another spellcaster too.

Quite a few things are mispelled or just plain-out missing, but this was typed pretty hastily. Also, sorry about the wall of text.

 

[Arcadenik]

Pseudomaniac, welcome to Smash Boards.

So, on to your long list of character suggestions.

*reads*

Hmm, most of them are pretty decent... Duck Hunter? But he does not exist. YOU are the Duck Hunter. If anything, I would suggest the Dog to rep Duck Hunt (and the light gun shooter genre) and the Mii to rep YOU (and the Wii and the sports genre).

As awesome as it would be but Captain N is not a real video game character. Can we have the Mii look like Captain N instead? The Duck Hunt dog can take Duke's role as the Mii's sidekick in the Adventure Mode.

Ooh, you should add in Toad and Little Mac, too. Little Mac is a popular NES character who finally got a Wii sequel and it was well-received by gamers and critics. Toad is the last of the classic Mario characters not yet playable in Smash and I think the Toads' roles in New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Super Mario All-Stars should help boost his star power with the public eye.

 

[Shorts]

Hi again guys, umm so regaurding my post last night, I would like to give a tad bit of further info so, here we go!

I would really like to ultimately start looking at ALL my submitted character lists by monday, but if anyone of you wants to do it, but some reason can not get it to my by that deadline pm me please and I'll figure it out. So Next Monday is when I would like to start this. Just to make life easier I will post all the franchises at the bottom of this.

Anyways, I know most of the people who read this probably wrote it off as "It's not going to be a good poll" or flat out that I won't do it, so I'm going to try to convince some of you who I truely respect your opinions to submit stuff to me. I almost always do what I say I'm gonna do, and I like smash enough to have already made a poll. This poll was decent, but had many error's and flaws as Toise pointed out in the past. So all who I named off, I would truely love to have your opinions, even IF it's just in one franchises character selection. Because I truely need help in a few areas.

So again, I would LOVE to have all who I requested (and anyone else for that matter) do each franchise, but if you only want to do a few that's alright too.


Franchises/Selection boxes:

Mario
Pokemon
Legend Of Zelda
Kirby
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Wario
Metriod
Fire Emblem
Mother
Pikmin
F-Zero
Star Fox
Kid Icarus
Retro
New Franchise
Third Party

Again, thanks for your time, and please , think about doing this. How else would I indulge in my passion of list making?

 

[Tyler_ACE]

Idk bout u guys, but I really want to see MK nurfed, but just enough so that he's even with characters like Marth and diddy. That would be nice :D

 

[Zap tackle]

Bowser Jr.- Very popular new character, has great moveset potential when armed with the paintbrush. Plus, Smash Bros. has a rather small rogue's gallery (consisting of only Bowser, Ganondorf, Wario, and Wolf in Brawl)

Paper Mario- A good rep of the RPG side of the Mario series, along with having good moveset potential due to his papery properties and fighting style consisting of hammers, aerial stunts, and partners.

Good choices, but I think Toad should also be considered. I mean he is the last main series protagonist who is not in Smash yet. If only the next Smash would be able to add both Toad and Jr., then things would go on smoothly. Like Arc said before, NSMB Wii will be a big boost for Toad (as well as the Mario anniversary events and upcoming spin-offs like Mario Kart 3DS and Mario Sports Mix).

Personally, I think Paper Mario should be represented with his own logo rather than Mario's. Even though they're both the same character, Paper Mario's games are much different than regular Mario's ones. He should represent the Mario RPG series if anything.

 

[SuperMetroid44]

Yes, I have a Pokemon avatar but notice how it does not feature Jigglypuff at all? There are quite a few Pokemon I actually like and Jigglypuff is not one of those Pokemon I like. My god, just because I don't like the Pokemon itself does not mean I don't like all the other Pokemon.

Yes, she has been in the last three games for now. I think it is not fair to the other Pokemon who could potentially have been made into Smash fighters to be screwed over again and again for that spot on the roster (and we all know that there is a limited number of spots on the roster) because Jigglypuff have been playable in more Smash games and she just takes that spot again and again.

It is time for a change.

Do you always say the same stuff? "Hey, let's get rid of *insert veteran* and replace them with this! It's time for a change!" Seriously, I have already stated some reasons why Jigglypuff WOULD be in SSB4, yet people still bring this up. Here's another thing I noticed: If you have even SEEN a pattern, Pikachu and Jigglypuff always stay, and they'll probably get rid of the other 2. Like, they'll probably replace Pokemon Trainer and Lucario, since that's what they've done with previous Pokemon characters, Pichu and Mewtwo. Just a theory I have. But back on topic, Just because you don't care about Jigglypuff, that ISN'T a reason for a character not to be in. It's not legit.

Oh, and Smashchu, why are you still speaking for everyone else? When you say "no one wants but you", you are saying that no one in the whole Earth wants Meowth except for me and only me. That is not true except in your mind. You are not the voice of us all - if you were, we all would not be debating with you about the roster and the gameplay.

This is the most hypocritical post i've ever seen.

I've been lurking on this debate for a bit now and decided I might as well chime in. I've got a few points and a speculative character list to add.

WARNING! MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT!

1.) Why are we so heated over which characters to remove? Shouldn't we be more focused on trying to predict what characters will be added. Honestly, I believe that they only removed Mewtwo because of time restraints. He'll likely be back next game (IMO), but not at the expense of Jiggly or Lucario.

2.) I'm with Kuma that characters would likely be selected based on playstyle, not on what's "hip" in the Nintendo scene. How else do you explain Ice Climbers? Brawl isn't exclusively fanservice- it's a game in it's own right.

3.) I personally do believe it's a risk to bring Sakurai back due to his stance on how a game should be made; although I prefer Brawl to Melee, there were some things that were added or removed in Brawl that were an unnecessary waste of time and money (stickers and pratfalling, mainly). However, it's also a huge risk to bring in a new developer, as he may try to take the game in the wrong direction (too serious, too complex, etc) One thing I wholeheartedly agree on, though, is that the next developer should take the fans into consideration more.

Finally someone with common sense, welcome. I don't agree with adding Bowser Jr., but I support Toad and possibly Paper Mario.

 

[Big-Cat]

3.) I personally do believe it's a risk to bring Sakurai back due to his stance on how a game should be made; although I prefer Brawl to Melee, there were some things that were added or removed in Brawl that were an unnecessary waste of time and money (stickers and pratfalling, mainly). However, it's also a huge risk to bring in a new developer, as he may try to take the game in the wrong direction (too serious, too complex, etc) One thing I wholeheartedly agree on, though, is that the next developer should take the fans into consideration more

Don't forget the masterpieces. I don't think anyone needed that and it would've been redundant had Nintendo been smart to include demos of their games in their shopping catalog.

That's so that focus can be added on the much-needed balance element (along with an improved singleplayer and definitely improved online)

An improved online mode (pretty much what's in SSFIV but better netcode) alone would improve the single player significantly.

I've been keeping an eye on Project M, going as far as to suggest some Olimar changes that turn out aren't possible.

 

[ChronoBound]

http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=147803

Ridley is making a cameo in Dead or Alive Dimensions for the 3DS. Will Ridley ever be playable in Smash Bros.?

Also, I think this means there is a pretty good chance now that Samus will be playable in Dead or Alive Dimensions considering if Ridley is this prominent in it. Jiggly Samus at last?

 

[Big-Cat]

Jiggly Samus wouldn't surprise me. Otherwise, I can't see a reason as to why they'd make an Other M stage.

I think Ridley will be. He won't be like the other fighters, but in his own category I think.

 

[DekuBoy]

http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=147803

Ridley is making a cameo in Dead or Alive Dimensions for the 3DS. Will Ridley ever be playable in Smash Bros.?

Also, I think this means there is a pretty good chance now that Samus will be playable in Dead or Alive Dimensions considering if Ridley is this prominent in it. Jiggly Samus at last?

Gah, thought I'd get to post this. Hope this is an indication to Sakurai about how cool Ridley is.

 

[DarkShadow20]

I thought there was going to be some new games revealed today?

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I think Ridley will be. He won't be like the other fighters, but in his own category I think.

Like I said in last night's megapost, he'd definitely be different from the other fighters; heavier than Bowser, taller than Ganondorf, yet also able to glide. Kind of a strange combination, but, if you think about it, the whole Smash Bros. series has always been extremely strange. It's why I prefer it to all other fighters.

Don't forget the masterpieces. I don't think anyone needed that and it would've been redundant had Nintendo been smart to include demos of their games in their shopping catalog.

That too. Really, they need to cut stickers, pratfalling, masterpieces, and a few other pointless little details. I do enjoy collecting trophies, but I wouldn't necessarily miss them too much, either.

Hmm, most of them are pretty decent... Duck Hunter? But he does not exist. YOU are the Duck Hunter. If anything, I would suggest the Dog to rep Duck Hunt (and the light gun shooter genre) and the Mii to rep YOU (and the Wii and the sports genre).

As awesome as it would be but Captain N is not a real video game character. Can we have the Mii look like Captain N instead? The Duck Hunt dog can take Duke's role as the Mii's sidekick in the Adventure Mode.

Ah, did not know that about Duck Hunter. I never purchased the Light Scope, and I was really just looking for a retro character to stick in. Still, a dog fighter would still be decent after I cut Wolf Link & Midna. However, I'm pretty highly opposed to adding a Mii. They don't really qualify as an "all-star", due to mainly being an avatar of the player. Their moveset would be pretty dull as well, IMO.

As for Captain N, he was the most outrageous character I can think of now that G&W and R.O.B. are taken. If Sakurai (or the new developer) has a sense of humor they'd probably get a really good kick out of it too. Still, I can't post a very intelligent argument for him because he's a "WTF" character.


As far as the other 2 characters I've heard mentioned a lot: Little Mac, as I said, would be redundant due to another, ultimately more important character (K. Rool) playing the role of a boxer. Toad I could just never really see fit in. I could be proven wrong, but I really don't see a whole lot of moveset potential.

Also, I'm surprised I haven't seen flames for including 4 new 3rd parties. I saw someone get torn apart a few pages back for just suggesting 3. I guess opinions change over time, huh?

I also came up with some ideas for some stages w/music

Rainbow Road
We've had Mario Circuit, now for the next most famous Mario Kart track. I'd imagine it being kind of like Temple or New Pork City in size, with racers and maybe some Galaxy-esque elements like launchers or bizarre gravity effects.
SOUNDTRACK:

• N64 Rainbow Road
• Wii Rainbow Road
• Gusty Garden
• Super Mario Galaxy Theme
• Jolly Roger Bay

Bowser’s Castle
It's about time Bowser got his own stage. I'm envisioning lots of explosions and lava. For the love of God, though, can we have a lava effect other than the rising\falling lava (or acid) of the Metroid stages?
SOUNDTRACK:

• NSMBDS Castle Theme
• Yoshi’s Island Final Boss
• Battle of the Thousand Year Door
• Bowser Galaxy
• The Dark World
• Super Mario Bros. Castle Theme

Battle Stage
The generic stage from TTYD. Pretty plain except for background props and the audience, who will occasionally throw stuff at the players.
SOUNDTRACK:

• Paper Mario Battle Theme
• The Ultimate Show
• Rawk Hawk
• Partners in Time Boss
• Fawful's Theme

I'll post more as they get finished.

 

[Arcadenik]

Okay, I saw the Dead or Alive 3DS video with Ridley... it does not look like Ridley is a playable character, if anything he is more or less a stage hazard where he breathes fire at the playable characters and slams them against the walls if they fall off the stage.

Also, King K. Rool was a boxer in only one game (Donkey Kong 64) while Little Mac has been a boxer in all his games. When people put boxing and Nintendo together, Punch-Out!! usually comes out as the answer. Shouldn't Smash reflect that?

And KumaOso, you got me thinking about something... so, you think that characters were added because they could potentially offer their unique style of gameplay? I am pretty sure that being relevant to Nintendo's latest games and their popularity with fans are also factors as well.

 

[Shorts]

When making this poll, should I just assume Lucario will be in, and not give the chance for him to be dropped? Should I give every character a chance to be dropped? Should I keep it no characters in brawl should have a chance at being dropped?

Choices choices. I can easily make them myself, but I don't like getting complaints on a poll -_-