[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[asia_catdog_blue]

And is not canonical

Well, it IS a platformer and considering that Mario games have no continuity whatsoever...

Though, it's just ONE moment for Peach.

 

[DekuBoy]

And is not canonical

Canon in Mario? Are you aware of the Mario Galaxy games contradicting each other?

 

[Jaklub]

Canon in Mario? Are you aware of the Mario Galaxy games contradicting each other?

I meant it's not in main series, but you're right.

 

[DekuBoy]

Just thinking now: does Super Mario 2 (USA) count as part of the main series or not?

 

[BirthNote]

I meant it's not in main series, but you're right.

There's also her playable role in Super Mario Bros. 2, which is where a good amount of her SSB moves come from.


EDIT: I'M ONE POST TOO LATE AGAIN! XD

 

[ryuu seika]

Conker from conkers bad fur day

He was cut from the Diddy Kong Racing roster in the remake. This means microsoft wants him to have nothing to do with nintendo so he isn't an option.

Master Chief From Halo

Also owned by microsoft but might be possible.

 

[Moogi]

Also owned by microsoft but might be possible.

I hope you're being sarcastic :D

 

[BirthNote]

LOL, if Conker was in Smash I'd imagine that he'd have a very "Context-Sensitive" moveset. If he got thrown off the stage a lightbulb would probably appear over his head XD.


I'm joking btw.

 

[ryuu seika]

I hope you're being sarcastic :D

AFAIK there is nothing actively stopping him from getting in. I think he'd be an awful choice but I was trying to keep my thoughts out of that discussion.

 

[Zap tackle]

Just thinking now: does Super Mario 2 (USA) count as part of the main series or not?

It seems to be. Nintendo appears to agree with this as well (though the timeline seems to be different from the Western and Japanese Mario series games). Definitely different, but still apart of the series.

Anyways, if we're only seeing Super Mario Bros. 2 as the only mainstream game where Peach is playable, then Toad has actually been playable more than her in the main series (SMB 2 and NSMB Wii). Just wanted to point that out.

 

[Arcadenik]

SMB2 is part of the main series, like it or not. It is in Super Mario All-Stars, too.

It seems that Nintendo considers the following games as the main games in the Mario series:

- Super Mario Bros.
- Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels (Super Mario Bros. 2 in Japan)
- Super Mario Bros. 2 (Super Mario USA in Japan)
- Super Mario Bros. 3
- Super Mario Land
- Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins
- Super Mario World
- Super Mario 64
- Super Mario Sunshine
- Super Mario Galaxy
- Super Mario Galaxy 2
- New Super Mario Bros.
- New Super Mario Bros. Wii

Everything else are spin-off games.

I would love to see Super Mario All-Stars get some representation in Smash 4 somehow... I was thinking that "World 1" could be a stage where it is a side-scrolling stage much like Mushroomy Kingdom, only it takes the battle across World 1 from SMB1, Lost Levels, SMB2, and SMB3. Instead of two random stages, it has four random stages and it is not empty and desolated like Mushroomy Kingdom, it is full of life like in NSMBWii and it got some enemies.

SMB1's World 1 (aka Kingdom I) would take you from 1-1, then go down to 1-2, and then back up to 1-3, and then back to 1-1. Enemies include Goombas, Koopa Troopas, Piranha Plants, Bullet Bills *, and Buzzy Beetles *. Note the * symbol. This indicates that these enemies only appear in the "hard mode" of SMB1's World 1. So, after you go through the first loop, it switches to hard mode on the second loop, and the reverts back to the easy mode on the third loop, and switches back to hard mode on the fourth loop, and so on.

Lost Levels's World 1 (aka Lost Kingdom) would take you from 1-1, then go through 1-3, and go inside 1-4, and then back to 1-1. Enemies include Goombas, Koopa Troopas, Koopa Paratroopas, Piranha Plants, Bloopers, Fire Bars, and False Bowsers. Well, at least this one has Bowser's Castle (1-4).

SMB2's World 1 (aka Kingdom II or Subcon) would take you from 1-1, and then go up to 1-2, and then go through 1-3, and then back down to 1-1. Enemies include Shy Guys, Snifits, Tweeters, Ninjis, Hoopsters, Birdos, Pidgits, Beezos, and Trouters. This one would make you feel like you are back in Kingdom II from Melee.

SMB3's World 1 (aka Kingdom III or Grass Land) would take you from 1-1, and then go through 1-3, and then go through 1-6, and then back to 1-1. Enemies include Goombas, Koopa Troopas, Piranha Plants, Venus Fire Traps, Boomerang Bros, and Koopa Paratroopas.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think I might leave this thread for a week and see what happens. If it's on something having to do characters when I get back, I'm throwing gameplay topics like crazy.

*Goes off to look up Guilty Gear info*

 

[fenyx4]

@ asia_catdog_blue

Adding female characters in Smash as playable characters just because they are females should not be a reason to add them. If being female is the only thing they have going, then maybe it isn't a good idea in the first place. I don't care about WHAT they are, I care about WHO they are.

As for the female characters I think have a good chance of getting in Smash without resorting to using the overused "she is a female" reason are:

Caeda - she is practically the heroine of Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon, Marth's remake, and even Sakurai himself considers her to be one

Dixie Kong - she was planned to be in Brawl at one point as Diddy Kong's team partner, and Sakurai has a history of putting in scrapped ideas for one game in a later game, so she may be in Smash 4 as her own character or as Diddy Kong's team partner or maybe even something that comes out left field like a team of Dixie Kong and Kiddy Kong (It would be awesome to have all four playable Kongs from the original DKC games in Smash 4!)

Medusa - she is the villain of the Kid Icarus series like Bowser is to the Mario series and Sakurai is working on Kid Icarus: Uprising so I think he might become a bit biased towards her to add her in Smash

Palutena - she is the heroine of the Kid Icarus series like Peach is to the Mario series and Sakurai is working on Kid Icarus: Uprising so I think he might become a bit biased towards her to add her in Smash

Don't forget Midna! Either as solo or as 1/2 of a potential "Wolf Link and Midna" character (the latter of which I prefer). In the WL+M version, she'd at least give Link an opportunity to have an entirely different moveset than standard Link, Young Link, and Toon Link. Toon Link bugs me a bit...he could've been saved until SSB4, as I presume the handheld DS games starring "Wind Waker Link" will be continuing for quite a while... Midna's best shot was in Brawl, and now she's not it in, so... Though one of the Zelda devs said they wouldn't completely using her for a future Zelda game if there was a good story to go along with her as well. So Midna has a chance, albeit a very small one... She also has quite a few fans, so there's that as well boosting her chances for inclusion...

I'm glad they delayed it so we could get a flawless online experience.

ROFL...


I was constructing a post in regards to Square Enix characters, but stupid FireFox, as great as it usually is in functionality, had to crash on me and wipe all the text in the message. >_> I really don't feel like typing it out again, but I'll try condensing what my original thoughts were in a future post...

 

[Arcadenik]

I did not forget Midna. I intentionally left her out. She is not important to the Zelda series anymore... maybe five years ago, but not now. Really, what makes her more important than the other outdated Zelda characters like Agahnim, Skull Kid, Tetra, and Vaati? Nothing, she's just new and when Skyward Sword comes out and people start supporting whoever is important in that game, it will be "Midna who?"

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I did not forget Midna. I intentionally left her out. She is not important to the Zelda series anymore... maybe five years ago, but not now. Really, what makes her more important than the other outdated Zelda characters like Agahnim, Skull Kid, Tetra, and Vaati? Nothing, she's just new and when Skyward Sword comes out and people start supporting whoever is important in that game, it will be "Midna who?"

Exactly. This is why I say One-Shot Characters don't really have much of a chance, especially if they haven't really done anythin in the game they debuted in.

But, you try getting the in the heads of the many fanfreaks of that overrated puppet. Seriously, what does Geno has over Mallow,

You know, I still wish Stamina Mode was a Main VS Mode. Something Similar to TMNT: Smash Up. Think about it.

 

[fenyx4]

I did not forget Midna. I intentionally left her out. She is not important to the Zelda series anymore... maybe five years ago, but not now. Really, what makes her more important than the other outdated Zelda characters like Agahnim, Skull Kid, Tetra, and Vaati? Nothing, she's just new and when Skyward Sword comes out and people start supporting whoever is important in that game, it will be "Midna who?"

Exactly. This is why I say One-Shot Characters don't really have much of a chance, especially if they haven't really done anythin in the game they debuted in.

But, you try getting the in the heads of the many fanfreaks of that overrated puppet. Seriously, what does Geno has over Mallow,

Well yeah, the "one-shot" nature of certain characters does hinder chances of inclusion significantly... But Midna's fanbase does seem to be growing, and support could very well push her into future Zelda and SSB games...


And Jigglypuff still managed to get into Brawl - as of now, nothing makes her more important than the other 648 Pokemon we have. If we go by the anime, her/"his"/"its" last appearance singing and scribbling on people was six years ago (before Brawl's release), and in the games, she's just another generic Pokemon these days. Right now, the only thing "saving" her is her veteran status, which isn't even that much of a guarantee of inclusion in subsequent Smash games (Ness was close to being cut by Masashiro Sakurai back in Melee). One might have been able to say the same of Pikachu before, but he's/"it's" been appearing in the anime and games consistently, not to mention that he's still fulfilling the status of "mascot".

 

[SuperMetroid44]

But, you try getting the in the heads of the many fanfreaks of that overrated puppet. Seriously, what does Geno has over Mallow,

Exactly, Geno will not be in a SSB game when there's too many more deserving Mario characters, Geno was in 1 Mario game (or 2...) and that's not enough to get into Super Smash Bros. Like seriously, how the heck can he even be considered over characters like Toad? It's completely ridiculous.

And Jigglypuff still managed to get into Brawl - as of now, nothing makes her more important than the other 648 Pokemon we have. If we go by the anime, her/"his"/"its" last appearance singing and scribbling on people was six years ago (before Brawl's release), and in the games, she's just another generic Pokemon these days. Right now, the only thing "saving" her is her veteran status, which isn't even that much of a guarantee of inclusion in subsequent Smash games (Ness was close to being cut by Masashiro Sakurai back in Melee). One might have been able to say the same of Pikachu before, but he's/"it's" been appearing in the anime and games consistently, not to mention that he's still fulfilling the status of "mascot".

This is a perfect example why I don't comment or care for this topic anymore. First off, another thing that "may" be keep Jigglypuff in SSB is cuz she's very popular in Japan, another thing is Jigglypuff is one of GameFreak's favorite Pokemon creations, and of course as you mentioned, Jigglypuff's veteran status is another reason why she's in.

And seriously, WTF? Pikachu was never going to get removed, idk where you got that.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well yeah, the "one-shot" nature of certain characters does hinder chances of inclusion significantly... But Midna's fanbase does seem to be growing, and support could very well push her into future Zelda and SSB games...

Geno's fanbase is still relatively high for a character that hasn't been playable in 15 years but that doesn't change his relevance to the Mario franchise. Midna's basically in the same boat. Unless her popularity reaches Sonic the Hedgehog levels or she appears in another Zelda game, she's not even a blip on the radar. In truth, I think this is what's going to screw over King K. Rool/Dixie Kong because, despite being very popular, they haven't had important roles in a DK game since the early GC/GBA days.

 

[DekuBoy]

AFAIK there is nothing actively stopping him from getting in. I think he'd be an awful choice but I was trying to keep my thoughts out of that discussion.

Except that all potential newcomers have had to appear on a Nintendo system at least once.

 

[ryuu seika]

Ah, yes, that.

 

[fenyx4]

Exactly, Geno will not be in a SSB game when there's too many more deserving Mario characters, Geno was in 1 Mario game (or 2...) and that's not enough to get into Super Smash Bros. Like seriously, how the heck can he even be considered over characters like Toad? It's completely ridiculous.

This is a perfect example why I don't comment or care for this topic anymore. First off, another thing that "may" be keep Jigglypuff in SSB is cuz she's very popular in Japan, another thing is Jigglypuff is one of GameFreak's favorite Pokemon creations, and of course as you mentioned, Jigglypuff's veteran status is another reason why she's in.

And seriously, WTF? Pikachu was never going to get removed, idk where you got that.

LOL...well, for all intents and purposes, R.O.B. was only "relevant" for two games released all the way back in 1985 (21 years before 2006, the time the roster for Brawl was "supposedly" finalized"). Everything since then has just been mere cameos in series where there are way more prominent characters (Kirby, Fox, Wario, Captain Falcon, and Captain Olimar). Technically, R.O.B. shouldn't be viable for SSB either if Geno isn't.

I only brought up Pikachu's potential removal because technically, he could be in the exact same position as Jigglypuff is were it not for the anime. Before the Pokemon anime's debut, Pikachu was "just another generic Pokemon", just like the other 150 Pokemon at the time. But the anime producers decided to use him as the "starter" and main partner Pokemon of the anime's main character (Ash Ketchum). Only through repeated appearances in the anime, and being the main partner of said anime's main character, was Pikachu able to catapult to mascot status. Now, it would be absurd to even consider Pikachu's removal, but without the anime and mascot status, Pikachu would be banking on veteran status just like Jigglypuff is.
The Pokemon anime along with Game Freak's input seems to be a major factor in determining Pokemon representation in Brawl. If the anime never existed to augment the popularity of Pikachu and Jigglypuff, I honestly don't know which Pokemon would "qualify" for Smash. Probably starter Pokemon, version mascots, and legendary Pokemon...

Geno's fanbase is still relatively high for a character that hasn't been playable in 15 years but that doesn't change his relevance to the Mario franchise. Midna's basically in the same boat. Unless her popularity reaches Sonic the Hedgehog levels or she appears in another Zelda game, she's not even a blip on the radar. In truth, I think this is what's going to screw over King K. Rool/Dixie Kong because, despite being very popular, they haven't had important roles in a DK game since the early GC/GBA days.

I admit that a character's recurrence in their respective series is very vital for inclusion in Smash. But even that doesn't seem to be a "definite" criterion for inclusion. The days of characters like the Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch are, as of now, long gone, and the only thing they have going is the "retro" concept introduced with Melee. Before Melee, those guys wouldn't even be considered "Nintendo All-Stars" in SSB64's book. The Ice Climbers are in a worse boat; the only game in their "series" was released back in 1985, and virtually everything since then has been a rerelease of that original game on another system (which weren't exactly "best-sellers"). So really, you can be in just one game and still have a chance in Smash.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Well yeah, the "one-shot" nature of certain characters does hinder chances of inclusion significantly... But Midna's fanbase does seem to be growing, and support could very well push her into future Zelda and SSB games...

Midna's popularity is fading, and hopes of a future appearance aside (which would almost definitely end up like a Marin = Malon type deal anyway), she's done.

And Jigglypuff still managed to get into Brawl - as of now, nothing makes her more important than the other 648 Pokemon we have.

Except still being one of the most popular Pokemon worldwide from 1996 to the present, in spite of being well past her prime. Yes, her Smash appearances are partly the reason why she still holds up. No, that doesn't "cheapen her popularity" or whatever.

LOL...well, for all intents and purposes, R.O.B. was only "relevant" for two games released all the way back in 1985 (21 years before 2006, the time the roster for Brawl was "supposedly" finalized"). Everything since then has just been mere cameos in series where there are way more prominent characters (Kirby, Fox, Wario, Captain Falcon, and Captain Olimar). Technically, R.O.B. shouldn't be viable for SSB either if Geno isn't.

R.O.B. (the device) was an incredibly important device in Nintendo's success in North America as well as a literal icon of the NES itself. There's a reason why he keeps making cameos.

Geno is a cool guy from one Mario game. Not the most popular Mario game, not even several Mario games. A game. A spin-off game, no less. And Nintendo doesn't even have full ownership of him. Keeping in mind of course that there are two major recurring Mario characters yet to be made playable, neither of which anyone is 100% confident in becoming so anytime soon.

I admit that a character's recurrence in their respective series is very vital for inclusion in Smash. But even that doesn't seem to be a "definite" criterion for inclusion. The days of characters like the Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch are, as of now, long gone, and the only thing they have going is the "retro" concept introduced with Melee. Before Melee, those guys wouldn't even be considered "Nintendo All-Stars" in SSB64's book. The Ice Climbers are in a worse boat; the only game in their "series" was released back in 1985, and virtually everything since then has been a rerelease of that original game on another system (which weren't exactly "best-sellers"). So really, you can be in just one game and still have a chance in Smash.

Game & Watch has always been considered All-Star material in Nintendo's book. This hasn't changed between 1980 and today. Melee had nothing to do with it.

The Ice Climbers were added specifically as a representative of simple classic NES games of the mid-80's. Sakurai has admitted this, and to date, they are the ONLY character(s) included for the purpose of "representing" something larger than themselves.

Every other single-appearance character belongs either to a series with an evolving cast (Fire Emblem and Mother) or gives definition to an already existing character (Sheik, who also happens to be from that series' unquestionably most popular game).


------------------------

How many of you are gonna be around on Wednesday? Word on the street says new news is afoot.

 

[BirthNote]

News? Do you know what its about?

Has anyone been thinking about event matches lately, like one with a Wario-Man vs Giga Bowser scenario? Obviously, they should modify many aspects to make it a "fair" match, but I'm just throwing a random thought out there.

 

[fenyx4]

Except still being one of the most popular Pokemon worldwide from 1996 to the present, in spite of being well past her prime. Yes, her Smash appearances are partly the reason why she still holds up. No, that doesn't "cheapen her popularity" or whatever.

R.O.B. (the device) was an incredibly important device in Nintendo's success in North America as well as a literal icon of the NES itself. There's a reason why he keeps making cameos.

Geno is a cool guy from one Mario game. Not the most popular Mario game, not even several Mario games. A game. A spin-off game, no less. And Nintendo doesn't even have full ownership of him. Keeping in mind of course that there are two major recurring Mario characters yet to be made playable, neither of which anyone is 100% confident in becoming so anytime soon.

Game & Watch has always been considered All-Star material in Nintendo's book. This hasn't changed between 1980 and today. Melee had nothing to do with it.

The Ice Climbers were added specifically as a representative of simple classic NES games of the mid-80's. Sakurai has admitted this, and to date, they are the ONLY character(s) included for the purpose of "representing" something larger than themselves.

Every other single-appearance character belongs either to a series with an evolving cast (Fire Emblem and Mother) or gives definition to an already existing character (Sheik, who also happens to be from that series' unquestionably most popular game).

Where the freak are all these "Jigglypuff" fans coming from that I keep on hearing mentioned? Aside from Smash contexts where people adore her or think she flat-out "sucks" and references to the singing/scribbling anime Jigglypuff, I hardly ever hear her being mentioned in Pokemon discussions. Of the original 151, Mons like Charizard, Mewtwo, Blastoise, Gyarados, and Dragonite seem to dominate the discussions of "favorite/popular Pokemon" in my experiences... I've heard Jigglypuff is mainly favored in Japan, but in the U.S., it's been very different in my experience. And often when I've talked to Smash fans, when the idea for an SSB4 roster comes up, the frequent answer is "Take out Jigglypuff and put in/bring back [insert character here, usually it's Mewtwo]", so even her popularity in Smash seems to be questionable. So again, I honestly haven't seen much of her so-called "popularity" outside of Smash (and inside of Smash, it doesn't seem to be looking that good either, especially when concerning Mewtwo).

As for R.O.B., I really don't see his "relevance" in modern times. He was only used for two games, both of which are years old now. Yeah, he "cameos", but other than that he's not being used today, and from my experience, he wasn't that popular, either. And from what I'm getting, he had a short product life-span to boot...if he's so "iconic", I'd figure Nintendo would use him for more than two games. Between the 5 years of the NES release and the SNES release, you'd think they'd used him for something. I wasn't there when the NES was released, but even when I read references to it in videogaming articles and magazines, I hardly ever hear about R.O.B. or his games - Brawl was the first time I actually got acquainted with him to start learning about his history.

As for Game & Watch...that may have been due to me not being around when his consoles were released either, but I don't hear mentions of him either. I first discovered him while researching the Nintendo DS, where I heard that the Game & Watch console bears a striking resemblance to the DS. If G&W is "All-Star" as well, Nintendo didn't do a good job of promoting him in the 90s and/or making it seem that way, IMO... I mean, in that case I would've heard of him well before 2001-2003.

If Ice Climbers were the only ones included for "retro" and representing something "larger than themselves", exactly why is Pit in Brawl? Isn't he meant to represent the "retro" crowd as well? Additionally, his few games were overshadowed by Metroid, so he isn't "All-Star" either. The only other factor is his apparently "large" fanbase prior to Brawl, and as we've seen with Sonic and Midna, fan popularity, however large, cannot guarantee inclusion in Smash.

 

[Big-Cat]

Okay, I'm gonna break away from me saying I'd stay for a week because Toise posted.

Toise, are you talking about the 3DS event in New York? And have any of you guys seen this yet?
http://projectm.smashmods.com/index.php

I got to play a leaked alpha build yesterday, and I'm very excited about this.

 

[Shorts]

Are you really trying to argue jigglypuff's inclusion in smash? Good luck.

anyways, does anyone know about Skyward Sword?

 

[Big-Cat]

I think we'll be lucky to hear anything on Wednesday because we know barely anything on the game. The next time we'll see anything probably won't be until GDC.

 

[fenyx4]

And have any of you guys seen this yet?
http://projectm.smashmods.com/index.php

I got to play a leaked alpha build yesterday, and I'm very excited about this.

Oh, gosh...the return of wavedashing... >_>

Hmm...the project looks very interesting...I'm very glad about the removal of tripping and the change so Sonic's Homing Attack locks on with more accuracy. I wish they didn't do away with Brawl's Gale Boomerang...I actually preferred Brawl's versions to Melee's. The one in Melee just felt like a bother to use... Other cons include the Footstool changes and the removal of reverse grabs... Though I'm glad they removed autojabbing and fixed the momentum-carried-into-a-jump issues.

 

[i8pie]

If Ice Climbers were the only ones included for "retro" and representing something "larger than themselves", exactly why is Pit in Brawl? Isn't he meant to represent the "retro" crowd as well? Additionally, his few games were overshadowed by Metroid, so he isn't "All-Star" either.

I get the feeling that Project Sora and Sakurai were going to work on Kid Icarus back in 2005. Then Brawl was announced, they put those plans on hold and then decided it would be good that they add in Pit so that they might be able to build up some hype for the Kid Icarus game (or at least, people wouldn't say WTF if he announced a new Kid Icarus Game). That's just my guess though.

 

[fenyx4]

Are you really trying to argue jigglypuff's inclusion in smash? Good luck.

anyways, does anyone know about Skyward Sword?

All I know is that I'd rather have Mewtwo in over Jiggly any day. And Mewtwo has done much more for the Pokemon franchise than Jiggly ever has, popularity aside...

About Skyward Sword, I'm highly anticipating and awaiting it... :D The only thing I'm scared about is that I haven't heard any news about the inclusion of (Gale) Boomerang or the Hook-/Clawshot in the game, and I fear that they might get replaced in Link's potential SSB4 moveset with the new Beetle and Whip, respectively.

 

[Big-Cat]

Oh, gosh...the return of wavedashing... >_>

Hmm...the project looks very interesting...I'm very glad about the removal of tripping and the change so Sonic's Homing Attack locks on with more accuracy. I wish they didn't do away with Brawl's Gale Boomerang...I actually preferred Brawl's versions to Melee's. The one in Melee just felt like a bother to use... Other cons include the Footstool changes and the removal of reverse grabs... Though I'm glad they removed autojabbing and fixed the momentum-carried-into-a-jump issues.

On the bright side, with the removal of the reverse grab, the edgeguarding that wouldn't work because of it is now doable.

And wave dashing isn't hard once you get the hang of it. And besides, you can always just not bother with those mechanics, just like in Melee.

 

[fenyx4]

And wave dashing isn't hard once you get the hang of it. And besides, you can always just not bother with those mechanics, just like in Melee.

I never did get the hang of it back in Melee...I dislike it (WHY CAN'T PEOPLE WALK ON THE GROUND NORMALLY LIKE OTHER PEOPLE?!?!), but it does seem to be useful, from what I've seen. I've only played one match against a proficient Wave-Dasher, and despite my SSB experience, the results did not work out in my favor.. Not bothering with it is an option, but I'd still have to know how to counter the technique just in case...

As for Air-Dodging in general, I actually kind of liked Brawl's vertically-restricted, multiple-use air-dodging. In Melee, I had a weird tendency to Air-Dodge to the stage frequently. That's the main thing I used the "directional" part, for... And I really hate the "helpless fall" that comes right after it. Not to mention whether to decide between Air Dodging and Up Special at any given moment. If Air Dodging didn't work out in Brawl, I always relied on my trusty old Up Special (namely, Spin Attack).


Uh...these Project M modifications would be reversible, right Kuma? I didn't see anything mentioning that on their website's infopages. They said the changes themselves can be implemented on any Wii via SD card... I don't have an SD right now but am willing to test Project M out in the future... My main worry is whether I can switch back to the vanilla Brawl physics and coding...

 

[Shorts]

About Skyward Sword, I'm highly anticipating and awaiting it... :D The only thing I'm scared about is that I haven't heard any news about the inclusion of (Gale) Boomerang or the Hook-/Clawshot in the game, and I fear that they might get replaced in Link's potential SSB4 moveset with the new Beetle and Whip, respectively.

Don't kill me for this but, yay? I like the possiblilty of link getting new moves. I've played five different links through three games of smash, all with virtually the same moves! They certainly didn't do Toon link justice.

Wiki says that Skyward Sword is set BEFORE OOT, which may mean no Ganononondorf. Another yay. And then after the release if SS OOT for the 3DS is set to release. So I'm excited for the new Loz possabilities. I heard that Toon Link's games are on hold as well. This means we could potentially have a roster like one of these:

Link (Old or New moves)
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
New character
New Character

or

Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link
New character

Either of the links getting a new moveset and one keeping the old.

Edit: Yay to no Ganon so we have room for a new villain.

 

[Big-Cat]

The codes aren't permanent on your game. When the game goes off, it's back to normal.

For the other stuff, you have to start strategizing and considering what are the best options for you in any situation. The only way that you'll get better with that is to play the game with that in mind.

@Shortie
What? I'm sick of everyone playing the recent card. Smash Bros. is fanservice for all of Nintendo's history, not just what's hip and new. If Ganondorf was to not show up in a game for the next couple of years, he would still be in the next SSB game.

And Toon Link should stay, but the Links need to be more differentiated.

 

[Shorts]

@Shortie
What? I'm sick of everyone playing the recent card. Smash Bros. is fanservice for all of Nintendo's history, not just what's hip and new. If Ganondorf was to not show up in a game for the next couple of years, he would still be in the next SSB game.

And Toon Link should stay, but the Links need to be more differentiated.

I said nothing about Ganon leaving.... did I?

Nope. I said that because that leaves a second villain spot for there series if they got five slots. I said nothing about Ganon leaving.

 

[fenyx4]

Don't kill me for this but, yay? I like the possiblilty of link getting new moves. I've played five different links through three games of smash, all with virtually the same moves! They certainly didn't do Toon link justice.

Wiki says that Skyward Sword is set BEFORE OOT, which may mean no Ganononondorf. Another yay. And then after the release if SS OOT for the 3DS is set to release. So I'm excited for the new Loz possabilities. I heard that Toon Link's games are on hold as well. This means we could potentially have a roster like one of these:

Link (Old or New moves)
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
New character
New Character

or

Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link
New character

Either of the links getting a new moveset and one keeping the old.

Edit: Yay to no Ganon so we have room for a new villain.

The thing about the Whip>Hook-/Clawshot is that we already have a bunch of characters who utilize "whips", with Link's -Shot, IMO, working more like a grappling hook. I mean, Zero Suit Samus, Ivysaur, and Sheik whips are enough for now...we already have the "sword" weapon being used enough in Smash; let's not extend the weapon overkill to whips, too...

As for the Gale Boomerang, ever since I saw the screenshot in Electronic Gaming Monthly, I loved the intriguing design of the weapon. Even excluding the TP version aside, the Boomerang was one of the first items used back in ALttP, and it was very useful at that. It's one of the few Zelda items that, IMO, is iconic of the series, recurring even more than the famed Master Sword itself. Making the abrupt change to a Beetle just seems...wrong (and weird, IMO). What kind of a swordsman attacks with a Beetle? I'm not totally ruling out the Beetle's potential uses; if it can be included alongside a Boomerang, I'm all for it.

Hmm...a new Zelda villain does seem plausible. The only Zelda games I've played are A Link To The Past and Twilight Princess, so I'm inexperienced with the overall timeline and associated theories. Though I have a sneaking suspicion that the developers will somehow, someway, introduce a new villain to the franchise and still pull another Hijacked by Ganon move.

As for the roster, it would be nice to introduce a new character...but like Midna, said character's chances of inclusion would be arguable, and in SSB4 it would likely be a now-or-never shot, unless the producers are open to reintroducing the character in a future Zelda game like they've mentioned in regards to Midna. But let's get through Skyward Sword first before dwelling on that matter... >_>

As for the Link's moveset...though I prefer his classic SSBB moveset, I might be open to using a Whip and Beetle for one game, just to try it out. But one game only. I don't want Link using it for the rest of the Smash series...

Toon Link is a character, IMO, that could use change. I'm not experienced with his games either, but surely there must be some additional weapons to differentiate him from the standard "Link"... And while this doesn't relate to Wind Waker Link, I always envisioned ALttP Link (who was a "handheld" Link on the GBA) having those Medallions or other eccentric items imported to the moveset of a Young/Toon Link, in Smash.

Yeah, I'm kind of tired of playing multiple Links as well. The standard "Link" is an exception; I don't need him changing his moveset each game... Young and Toon Link, however, are in desperate need of changing from their cloned movesets. The Brawl developers could have used "Wolf Link & Midna" for Brawl and held off Toon Link, who will likely recur in future DS games anyway. Not only would the most recent Zelda game be advertised fairly well, players could play two entirely different Links to get a slight feel of the game Twilight Princess without feeling like playing as the "second Link" is deja vu.
And really, the time of Brawl was the highest chance that the "Wolf Link and Midna" will ever get a chance in Smash. Since that didn't come to fruition, the resurgence of WL+M will depend on a combination of fan demand, repeated appearances, Sakurai's opinion of them, and an overall contribution to the Smash series.

Finally, WL+M in Brawl as a fourth Zelda character would make it so that Link's moveset would not need to make room to accommodate for a "transformation" move.

The codes aren't permanent on your game. When the game goes off, it's back to normal.

For the other stuff, you have to start strategizing and considering what are the best options for you in any situation. The only way that you'll get better with that is to play the game with that in mind.

@Shortie
What? I'm sick of everyone playing the recent card. Smash Bros. is fanservice for all of Nintendo's history, not just what's hip and new. If Ganondorf was to not show up in a game for the next couple of years, he would still be in the next SSB game.

And Toon Link should stay, but the Links need to be more differentiated.

Hmm...that's very nice to know (in regards to reversible codes).

Yeah...I'll just have to continue working on strategy... (BUT REALLY IT IS VERY ANNOYING THAT THEY DO NOT WALK ON THE GROUND NORMALLY LIKE NORMAL PEOPLEZ!!!!11!!!)

LOL...Ganondorf is pretty much a definite in Smash from now on, and no Skyward Sword is enough to knock him out of the roster (..I would think that, but one never knows...if veterans can be cut, it's entirely possible though very strange that Ganon would make room for an SS foe)

As for Toon Link, I still prefer Wolf Link + Midna over him in SSB4... But a retooled Toon Link is the way to go (and let's retool Ganon while we're at it)!

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

.

Here's your biggest problem:

in my experiences
I hardly ever hear
I really don't see

You're deducing popularity and whatnot off of specific circles like SmashBoards or GameFAQs or whatever. Or maybe just listening to the most vocal opinions or believing what you already want to believe, whichever works. Either way, you're stuck in a bubble.

Props for helping me work on beating my quote jenga habit, by the way:

- If you don't think Jigglypuff is popular (worldwide, mind you), you're ignoring anyone who likes cute things. If you assume people who like cute things don't like Pokemon or video games, well... bubble.

- I never made the claim that R.O.B. was relevant in modern times, nor that it's a requirement for new series characters. But it seems like you're challenging R.O.B.'s historical relevancy and that's a big no-no.

- G&W has mostly the same deal as R.O.B., but you mentioned something that I need to address: your definition of "all-star" here seems to mean "modern hot ticket series," despite the fact that several series in Smash aren't very popular and several are quite old. You should probably rethink that.

- Pit is here because he's a quality character from a quality game. Sakurai realized that and that's why he's been so well-received, even by the younger set. And saying that he can't be an all-star because Metroid overshadowed it is as ******** as saying "you can't be rich with a million dollars, I have more than that."


@Kuma: Yeah, the NYC/Amsterdam thing. I get the feeling no one here will notice until like a day after word makes its way around SmashBoards, this place tends to be slow. Don't care about Project M or whatever unless they finish Roy/Mewtwo.

@Shortie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJDx3H_hvI8

 

[Big-Cat]

As for the Link's moveset...though I prefer his classic SSBB moveset, I might be open to using a Whip and Beetle for one game, just to try it out. But one game only. I don't want Link using it for the rest of the Smash series...

I can't see the Beetle being used for a fighting game. That whip though, could easily be applied to Toon Link as the item debuted in Spirit Tracks.

Hmm...that's very nice to know (in regards to reversible codes).

Yeah...I'll just have to continue working on strategy... (BUT REALLY IT IS VERY ANNOYING THAT THEY DO NOT WALK ON THE GROUND NORMALLY LIKE NORMAL PEOPLEZ!!!!11!!!)

You talking about the moonwalk? Yeah, it is definitely weird, ut I think it allows for more strategy.

And normal people can randomly trip.

 

[Arcadenik]

Jigglypuff's only saving grace is the fact the developers have ready-made data for Jigglypuff in all three games. So, that way, if they are too lazy to make a completely new playable Pokemon or too slow to meet the deadline, they can just insert Jigglypuff back on the roster on a short notice. That's why she was added late in Brawl and that's why she is placed last after the Pokemon newcomers as opposed to before them like Pikachu is.

@ Kuma

How would the moonwalk allow for more strategy? Can you give us some examples how strategic walking backwards like Michael Jackson would be?

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, let me try explaining. First, look at this for how to do it: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Moonwalking

Unfortunately, I can't tell you a lot about its applications other than my observations because I don't know a lot about it. The main thing this would be used for is for spacing and baiting attacks. It can also let you runaway with a FAir.