[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[libertyernie]

I've been thinking about Toon Link's chances of being in SSB4, and I figure that what they'll probably do is use the most recent adult Link design (Skyward Sword, probably) for one, and the most recent kid Link design for another. I tihnk Toon Link has a slight edge over OoT/MM Young Link, just for the sheer number of games they've used TL's design in (WW, FSA, TMC, and the two DS games.)
I think it would be great if they changed his up-B to be more like in Four Swords Adventures - maybe a bit weaker, but if you held it down long enough, Toon Link would start moving left and right at high speeds, sort of like Jigglypuff's Rollout, but without so much knockback.

 

[ChronoBound]

this guy stole my gimmick

LOL. I wanted to do it for a long time. I will lay off it just for you.

Anyway, I had this forsight of the Wolf and Krystal fanbases trying to cannibalize each other when Krystal emerged on the scene (I knew the furry scene would lift that character to heaven despite how mediocre Adventures was). (Sidenote, it was Falco versus Wolf back during Melee). I also foresaw the Lyn, Erika, and Micaiah fanbases ripping into each other. I saw the same with Midna (and I said at the time that she would likely not get in due to being a one-off, though most of her fanbase has evaporated, there are some that still cling on for her to get in). For some reason, people get much more rabid when females are involved.

Also, Kid Icarus will now have three games. Three games in a series has not stopped a series from getting a second character as was seen by Star Fox back in Melee and Mother in Brawl. Sakurai's director role for this new Kid Icarus might back him partial to the series like he was with Kirby in Smash 64 and Brawl.

 

[Arcadenik]

****, Sailor Pluto looks anorexic! Why do weeaboos want anime girls if they are pro-ana?

But anyway, even if Sakurai didn't work on Mother 3, he was still biased toward Lucas. I mean, why would he add Ness in SSB unless he wanted to promote EarthBound 64? It most certainly would explain why Sakurai originally planned to replace Ness with Lucas in Melee...

At least we know that Sakurai is working on Kid Icarus Uprising so it is very likely that he would be very biased toward Palutena and Medusa.

I'm now supporting Palutena and Medusa, but Palutena moreso because I love the idea of her being the magical girl staff-user in Smash!

 

[BBQTV]

LOL. I wanted to do it for a long time. I will lay off it just for you.

i guess it's ok, the reason i dont do it is because kuma and pieman said im not allowed

 

[Rychu]

Plus you could beat the living **** out of people as a ****ING GODDESS :D

 

[libertyernie]

I figured Ness got in SSB64 because EarthBound was made by HAL, and also because it's fun to have the last character unlocked be someone nobody has ever heard of.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

At least we know that Sakurai is working on Kid Icarus Uprising so it is very likely that he would be very biased toward Palutena and Medusa.

I was originally against the idea of a second Kid Icarus character even with the upcoming game, but you guys are persuasive. I guess it wouldn't be much of a surprise to see Palutena or Medusa, but definitely not both.

The question is, which one? I'm actually placing my bets on Medusa. They're both females, but Medusa is also a villain. I'm not saying that this means she absolutely deserves a spot because "Sm4SH neeDz moar villinzz!!!!!11" but you have to admit it does make a character more appealing, especially when they are deserving and possibly have bias towards them by Sakurai. Plus, assuming they keep final smashes, Palutena is present in Pit's final Smash. I know it's not the greatest reason, but I'd like to think that the Kid Icarus series will split into a sort of good vs. evil thing.

What I mean is, say you're playing as Pit, battling against Medusa. Pit's final smash calls upon Palutena and the centurions, who battle against Medusa. Or you can play as Medusa against Pit, and possibly use your Final Smash to call upon the creatures of the underworld to ambush Pit. See what I'm saying? It would be interesting that way.

Thoughts on this? Anyone agree?

 

[ChronoBound]

WTF characters. It seems like Sakurai always likes to add a little surprise for people. No one would have expected Ness to turn up in SSB64, and certainly no one expected Mr. Game & Watch. They were the last to be unlocked in their respective Smash titles, but in Brawl, it was Jigglypuff, Toon Link, or Wolf that was last to be unlocked, and they weren't much of a surprise. I'd say Brawl's WTF character is R.O.B., but he was unlocked in the middle of it all.

Honestly, Jigglypuff was the surprise for me back in Smash 64. I was probably one of the few people that actually owned a copy of EarthBound when in came out (though I think I got it back in 1996), so I was very familiar with Ness.. I knew every character on the roster, however, Jigglypuff seemed random to me, and initially thought that it was selected because the team just threw a dart at a board or pulled Jigg's name out of a hat. I did not find out about Jigglypuff's Japanese popularity until I was doing speculation for Melee's roster in 2001.

Also, Mother 2 sold quite well in Japan (I think it did about 500K). However, I think the reason why Ness got in over Marth (Fire Emblem is much more popular than the Mother series in Japan), was due to HAL having helped develop Mother 2 and was currently developing Mother 3 at the time.

 

[Big-Cat]

Anyway, I had this forsight of the Wolf and Krystal fanbases trying to cannibalize each other when Krystal emerged on the scene (I knew the furry scene would lift that character to heaven despite how mediocre Adventures was). (Sidenote, it was Falco versus Wolf back during Melee). I also foresaw the Lyn, Erika, and Micaiah fanbases ripping into each other. I saw the same with Midna (and I said at the time that she would likely not get in due to being a one-off, though most of her fanbase has evaporated, there are some that still cling on for her to get in). For some reason, people get much more rabid when females are involved.

When you say that these fanbases have evaporated, are you just talking about vocal demand?

BTW, do you despise furries and are you aware of rule 34?

****, Sailor Pluto looks anorexic! Why do weeaboos want anime girls if they are pro-ana?

I suggest you understand the context of the art style before saying anything. IIRC, the author's (who is female btw) art style was influenced by fashion magazines, particularly the ones with drawings instead of the ones with models. The style in those magazines featured long limbs and thin bodies, IIRC.

i guess it's ok, the reason i dont do it is because kuma and pieman said im not allowed

lol wut?

 

[BBQTV]

dont lol wut me

the last time i did that the both of you said stop

 

[Arcadenik]

ChronoBound, it also helps that Ness was internationally known while Marth was still known only in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if this was why Starfy, Saki, and Takamaru didn't get in Brawl and why Pit got in Brawl over Takamaru (and it also helps Pit's case that Sakurai was probably planning to make a Kid Icarus sequel after he finishes working on Brawl way back in 2005-06). They were all Japan-only at the time... but now they are internationally available. This is why I think Starfy, Takamaru, and Isa (Saki's replacement) NOW have decent chances of appearing in SSB4.

 

[BBQTV]

it also helps that sakurai is a pit fanboy

 

[ChronoBound]

ChronoBound, it also helps that Ness was internationally known while Marth was still known only in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if this was why Starfy, Saki, and Takamaru didn't get in Brawl and why Pit got in Brawl over Takamaru (and it also helps Pit's case that Sakurai was probably planning to make a Kid Icarus sequel after he finishes working on Brawl way back in 2005-06). They were all Japan-only at the time... but now they are internationally available. This is why I think Starfy, Takamaru, and Isa (Saki's replacement) NOW have decent chances of appearing in SSB4.

To be fair, Takamaru only appeared in Brawl as a sticker. However, Takamaru is a playable character in Samurai Warriors 3 and that is being released in the West. Starfy's latest game actually sold more in the West than it did in Japan. However, it seems as though the latest Sin & Punishment had poor sales. However, I am very curious as to who Sakurai will end up choosing as the new retro newcomer this time. While there are some popular ones such as Little Mac, Takamaru, and Lip, there are probably some obscure choices (like the Ice Climbers) that Sakurai could probably make really unique.

I also found it interesting that Kid Icarus Uprising was the first 3DS games that entered development (heck, they did not even have development kits for it until late 2009 despite beginning development in early 2009). This just shows how close Sakurai is with Nintendo despite not actually working for them anymore. Interestingly, Sakurai said that for his next project he would like to make a game for a HD console.... Considering that many are speculating for the Wii's replacement to come in 2012 or 2013.... hmmmm...

 

[Arcadenik]

it also helps that sakurai is a pit fanboy

Precisely. If Sakurai likes a character, that character is more likely going to get added in Smash.

If Sakurai doesn't find a character interesting enough to be playable, it is more likely said character wouldn't be added. Urban Champion is a good example of this.

If Sakurai doesn't think a character should fight, it is more likely said character wouldn't be added. Animal Crossing characters and Nintendogs are good examples of this.

If Sakurai doesn't think a character would work as a Smash fighter, it is more likely said character wouldn't be added. Bubbles, Excitebike, Balloon Fighter, and Mr. Saturn are good examples of this.

If Sakurai flat out said a character wouldn't be in Smash, it is more likely said character wouldn't be added. Sukapon is a good example of this.

 

[ChronoBound]

Precisely. If Sakurai likes a character, that character is more likely going to get added in Smash.

If Sakurai doesn't find a character interesting enough to be playable, it is more likely said character wouldn't be added. Urban Champion is a good example of this.

If Sakurai doesn't think a character should fight, it is more likely said character wouldn't be added. Animal Crossing characters and Nintendogs are good examples of this.

If Sakurai doesn't think a character would work as a Smash fighter, it is more likely said character wouldn't be added. Bubbles, Excitebike, Balloon Fighter, and Mr. Saturn are good examples of this.

If Sakurai flat out said a character wouldn't be in Smash, it is more likely said character wouldn't be added. Sukapon is a good example of this.

Hmmm. I wonder what the case with Ridley would be then?

Sakurai initially said in his response about Ridley that, "it would be impossible." However, he later went on to say, "We could make him work, though he would be a little slow. Would that be okay?"

Sakurai has some skepticism about Ridley, however, he also realizes that Ridley could work if he tried enough.

Regardless, Ridley is probably the only big (pun intended) Nintendo character left that is not yet a playable in Smash Bros.

 

[Shorts]

Honestly, Jigglypuff was the surprise for me back in Smash 64. I was probably one of the few people that actually owned a copy of EarthBound when in came out (though I think I got it back in 1996), so I was very familiar with Ness.. I knew every character on the roster, however, Jigglypuff seemed random to me, and initially thought that it was selected because the team just threw a dart at a board or pulled Jigg's name out of a hat. I did not find out about Jigglypuff's Japanese popularity until I was doing speculation for Melee's roster in 2001.

Well if you think about it, Jigglypuff was kind of popular in the anime. However if you reeally think about it Meowth, Charizard, Mewtwo and even Psyduck were just as popular back then.

are you aware of rule 34?

I love how its always Kuma to bring up rule34 x)

The question is, which one? I'm actually placing my bets on Medusa. They're both females, but Medusa is also a villain. I'm not saying that this means she absolutely deserves a spot because "Sm4SH neeDz moar villinzz!!!!!11" but you have to admit it does make a character more appealing, especially when they are deserving and possibly have bias towards them by Sakurai. Plus, assuming they keep final smashes, Palutena is present in Pit's final Smash. I know it's not the greatest reason, but I'd like to think that the Kid Icarus series will split into a sort of good vs. evil thing.

I totally agree, I personally am still not sold on a second Kid Icarus character, but I would much rather have the whole good vs. Evil thing like you said. Which girl had more "screen time" in Kid Icarus?

@ChronoBound, What are your views on the whole Bowser Jr. vs. Toad debate? I pretty much know everyone elses stance.

 

[ChronoBound]

My stance on the Bowser Jr. and Toad debate is that both characters would be worthy additions due to their importance to the main Mario series. Bowser Jr. has had more importance in recent main Mario titles, however, Toad's role in New Super Mario Bros. Wii was a windfall in regards to the cause of his fans.

Its really a matter of taste. I think Mario fans who grew up with the sidescrolling Marios, prefer Toad, while the ones that started with the 3-D Marios prefer Bowser Jr. Since, I am a big fan of Wario's Woods, I personally prefer Toad. However, I would not mind Bowser Jr. getting in assuming he was made into a unique character instead of a faster, weaker Bowser clone. Bowser Jr. seems to rely heavily on gadgetry and machines in the main games, so it would be interesting to see if Sakurai realizes this as well and tries to incorporate that into a possible moveset.

Paper Mario is another one that I feel is worthy as well. Heck, I would not even mind if Dr. Mario returned.

 

[Arcadenik]

Which girl had more screen time in Kid Icarus? Palutena, no doubt about it. She appears in all three Kid Icarus games while Medusa was missing only in the Game Boy sequel. This, in addition, to Palutena's appearance in Brawl and Medusa did not appear in Brawl at all. I would wager that Palutena is more likely than Medusa but I wouldn't be surprised if I hear some people saying Medusa should get in Smash after pulling out the villain card (after both Palutena and Medusa supporters pull out the female cards).

I doubt Sakurai sees Bowser Jr. that way like you do, ChronoBound. After all, he made clones out of Falco and Wolf and saw Dark Samus as a potential clone of regular Samus (especially when you read what Dark Samus's trophy said in Brawl). I personally think that Sakurai makes clones out of existing characters if the clones were already similar to the existing characters to begin with. The only mistake he made in regards to clones is making Ganondorf a clone of Captain Falcon (but I have grown to accept his current moveset now).

 

[Big-Cat]

I love how its always Kuma to bring up rule34 x)

To be honest, it's pretty relevant to some of his reasonings. He's cautious with Lip because of the whole loli thing even though that would be inevitable as rule 34 will make "that" happen. Then there's Krystal with the furry fandom.

 

[ChronoBound]

Which girl had more screen time in Kid Icarus? Palutena, no doubt about it. She appears in all three Kid Icarus games while Medusa was missing only in the Game Boy sequel. This, in addition, to Palutena's appearance in Brawl and Medusa did not appear in Brawl at all. I would wager that Palutena is more likely than Medusa but I wouldn't be surprised if I hear some people saying Medusa should get in Smash after pulling out the villain card (after both Palutena and Medusa supporters pull out the female cards).

I doubt Sakurai sees Bowser Jr. that way like you do, ChronoBound. After all, he made clones out of Falco and Wolf and saw Dark Samus as a potential clone of regular Samus (especially when you read what Dark Samus's trophy said in Brawl). I personally think that Sakurai makes clones out of existing characters if the clones were already similar to the existing characters to begin with. The only mistake he made in regards to clones is making Ganondorf a clone of Captain Falcon (but I have grown to accept his current moveset now).

I see. I wonder if Sakurai would also see Paper Mario as clone potential despite all of his unique abilities. All of Toon Link's unique gadgets did not stop Sakurai from turning him into the cloniest of Brawl's clones. *sigh* Its funny how Sakurai can see such potential in characters such as the Ice Climbers and R.O.B., but at the same time turn the likes of Ganondorf into clones.

 

[Shorts]

To be honest, it's pretty relevant to some of his reasonings. He's cautious with Lip because of the whole loli thing even though that would be inevitable as rule 34 will make "that" happen. Then there's Krystal with the furry fandom.

Well, I promise you, every nintendo character and their mother is on rule 34, not even birdo is safe. *cringes*

I wonder if Sakurai would also see Paper Mario as clone potential despite all of his unique abilities

I dont see how you could, I mean the games arent even the same type of game. Paper marioi has hammer, spike jump, and sooo many items to choose from. And dont even get me started on Toon Link. >.>

@Arcadenik, Well, if you think about it, people around my age/generation have never played the original Kid Icarus, so what else do you expect us to pull? I personally dont care for either, but i would prefer her because shes more interesting and a villain. DUN DUN DUUUN!

 

[Arcadenik]

To be fair, ChronoBound, Sakurai wasn't going to add Ganondorf in Melee in the first place. He just needed some more characters to buff the Melee roster in a short notice. So, we got Dr. Mario, Pichu, Falco, Roy, Young Link, and Ganondorf. His reasoning for Ganondorf? Because he had a similar body build like Captain Falcon's. But at least Sakurai is working on decloning Ganondorf little by little. His side+B and some A moves and Final Smash are little different from Captain Falcon's in Brawl. Maybe Ganondorf will be a little bit more different from Captain Falcon in SSB4 compared to in Melee and Brawl.

 

[ChronoBound]

To be fair, ChronoBound, Sakurai wasn't going to add Ganondorf in Melee in the first place. He just needed some more characters to buff the Melee roster in a short notice. So, we got Dr. Mario, Pichu, Falco, Roy, Young Link, and Ganondorf. His reasoning for Ganondorf? Because he had a similar body build like Captain Falcon's. But at least Sakurai is working on decloning Ganondorf little by little. His side+B and some A moves and Final Smash are little different from Captain Falcon's in Brawl. Maybe Ganondorf will be a little bit more different from Captain Falcon in SSB4 compared to in Melee and Brawl.

I know that. I always throw out that tidbit whenever people say that Melee was rushed. (Initially they only planned 20 characters, however, since they had some extra time left over, they had enough time to add one extra non-clone character or six clones, and Sakurai thought that people would appreciate the six clones more).

However, there was no excuse for why Ganondorf remained a clone in Brawl. Heck, Lucas and Wolf were less of clones than Ganondorf.

 

[Arcadenik]

Please, don't pull out the female and villain cards for Medusa. Just say she is interesting and important and leave it at that. The cards reduce Medusa to nothing more than just a twofer token minority.

The same goes for Captain Syrup as well.

 

[Shorts]

The same goes for Captain Syrup as well.

Captain syrup is better than any other wario character.

I despise WarioWare.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

But Medusa and Palutena aren't interesting. We don't know anything about them yet aside from their appearance.

You're attracted to your own ideas of what they might actually become rather than the characters themselves.

 

[BBQTV]

why did you link to tv tropes? their goes the rest of my day xD

 

[Arcadenik]

Okay, so Palutena and Medusa aren't interesting. So what? We already have some people suggesting the protagonists from The Last Story for SSB4.

At least we know Palutena and Medusa from past games. Medusa, knowing Greek mythology, could have special moves where she turns characters into stone and possibly shoot snakes from her hair like she did in the NES game. Medusa's Final Smash could possibly have her transform into a giant Medusa head like in the NES game. As for Palutena, just give her the Zelda treatment and have her borrow some magic spells Pit used in the NES/GB games for her specials like Protective Crystal and Flaming Arrow (they could come from her staff) in addition to her Mirror Shield. Also, she could get Pit's Final Smash as Pit could get a new one from Kid Icarus Uprising.

 

[BBQTV]

how are they not interesting? and maybe we should wait for the game to come out first?

 

[ChronoBound]

how are they not interesting? and maybe we should wait for the game to come out first?

Always wait. Heck, there was those that felt Captain Rainbow was going to be the next new series represented when it was announced. However, the abysmal sales and mediocre feedback regarding the game changed that. Always be cautious.

Like I said yesterday, Metroid Other M might offer us some new insight as to what Metroid's Smash 4 representation (in terms of characters, stages, assists, and trophies) might look like. So we will see what that game brings to the table.

All Super Mario Galaxy 2 brought to the table was that it further proved that Bowser Jr. is a main Mario series mainstay, and that the Mario arena most likely to be featured in Smash 4 will likely be based off of the Galaxy games.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Arc: It's not necessarily about the movesets; you're supporting characters whom you know nothing about aside from that they look awesome. No different than seeing a beautiful woman for the first time and declaring your love for her. What happened to waiting until the game comes out before you jump all over them?

And the Last Story people are pretty much just as shallow.


edit @BBQ: they're not really anything aside from "visually appealing," yes wait for the game

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I'm a Bowser Jr. supporter, and I feel like he is the next in line to represent Mario, just before Toad and Paper Mario. However, I fear that Arcadenik is right about the way Sakurai would possibly see Bowser Jr.

It's like Link and Toon Link. Toon Link's games allow him a completely original and de-cloned moveset, but because the characters are similar, he had to become a clone. I fear that if Bowser Jr. got in, his fate would be the same. A Bowser clone. Toad has been with the Mario series from the very beginning. He could have a more unique moveset, and he looks different too. I don't think Paper Mario would be a clone, though.

So at this point, I'd say it's a three-way tie for most likely candidate for the Mario series between Bowser Jr., Toad, and Paper Mario (although Paper Mario maybe behind by just a bit).

 

[Arcadenik]

I remember that about Captain Rainbow. It was a shame, really. I think that if the game had more obscure characters from well-known international games instead of more obscure characters from obscure Japan-only games and international niche games, it could have attracted more fans to the game. Who cares about Mappo, Drake Redcrest, Tao, Ossan, Hikari, and Crazy Tracy? At least it had Birdo (a Mario character), Little Mac (from the popular NES game), Lip (one of the most wanted characters for Brawl), Devil (better recognized as an Assist Trophy in Brawl), Takamaru (one of the most wanted characters for Brawl), and Famicom Wars soldiers (better recognized by Advance Wars fans). Maybe if it had Balloon Fighter, the dog and the ducks from Duck Hunt, Polar Bear from Ice Climber, Donkey Kong Jr., Pauline from the original Donkey Kong, the Old Man from the original Zelda or even Error from Zelda II, it could have attracted more fans...

Anyway, I will just do what Toise say and wait for the game before I support Palutena and Medusa again. I honestly don't think it would really matter how well Kid Icarus Uprising sells, the bottom line is... Sakurai is NOW more likely to be biased toward both of them.

 

[ChronoBound]

Anyway, I will just do what Toise say and wait for the game before I support Palutena and Medusa again. I honestly don't think it would really matter how well Kid Icarus Uprising sells, the bottom line is... Sakurai is NOW more likely to be biased toward both of them.

One important thing to realize would be is whether or not Palutena does any fighting in Uprising. If she does not, her detractors could argue that since she did not fight, she would not be suited for Smash Bros. However, I think it is likely that Pit will fight Medusa (probably doing a Ganondorf, where Pit will initially fight her in her human form, and then once she is beaten she will transform into some kind of monster).

 

[BBQTV]

that being "visually appealing" was a character trait?

 

[Arcadenik]

LOL Zelda and Sheik never fought in Ocarina of Time and they still got in Melee. Just remember, even if Palutena never fought in Kid Icarus Uprising, the bottom line is that it is very likely Sakurai is NOW biased towards her. Like I said before, if a character interests Sakurai, that character is very likely going to get in.

I also agree with you that there is a possibility that Medusa would fight in her human form before she transforms into a giant snake-haired Cyclops like she was in the NES game. That's why I think that this monster form could potentially work as her Final Smash.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

the bottom line is that it is very likely Sakurai is NOW biased towards her.

Based on what, his desire to bring the series as a whole back? There's zero indication that he has any particular interest in Palutena or Medusa, he hasn't talked about them at all in any of the KI interviews. There isn't even anything that suggests he'll be doing anything with this series after Uprising.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

LOL Zelda and Sheik never fought in Ocarina of Time and they still got in Melee. Just remember, even if Palutena never fought in Kid Icarus Uprising, the bottom line is that it is very likely Sakurai is NOW biased towards her. Like I said before, if a character interests Sakurai, that character is very likely going to get in.

What about Takamaru? Sakurai was biased towards him, he obviously likes the character. He wanted him to be playable in Smash but at the same time, he wanted to hold off until Takamaru got another game that did well. This never happened.

I agree with you that Sakurai's interests/bias has a lot to do with the final roster, but other factors come into play as well. Sakurai may decide to wait and see how his game does before throwing in Palutena or Medusa. That's why I think we should wait to see how the game does. Uprising may be the last we see of Kid Icarus for a while anyway, we don't know if Sakurai plans on continuing it. Chances are he doesn't. Just wait.

EDIT: Smash 4 probably won't begin development for a few years after Uprising anyway, so Sakurai might be a bit less "biased" by then.

 

[BBQTV]

Based on what, his desire to bring the series as a whole back? There's zero indication that he has any particular interest in Palutena or Medusa, he hasn't talked about them at all in any of the KI interviews. There isn't even anything that suggests he'll be doing anything with this series after Uprising.

i think arc got carried awawy

 

[Shorts]

Speaking of biases, after Sakurai admitted to not knowing who Krystal was, would that make him slightly more biased to put her in, maybe to show that he isnt just in it for his own personal favorites?

And what if Sakurai doesnt come back? This is a possability, even if Sakuria didnt want to work on ssb, nintendo probably knows better than to let such a game with a huge fanbase die. I think a fresh mind would do smash a little good.

EDIT: Smash 4 probably won't begin development for a few years after Uprising anyway, so Sakurai might be a bit less "biased" by then.

You never know, i mean no one saw black and white coming. And its being released the same year it was annonced. It must have been worked on for quite some time and we just not know it. Nintendo is sneaky that way