[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Arcadenik]

Well, unless he replaces jiggly, then he isn't getting in....
(He ain't replacing jiggly.)

Well, if Jigglypuff comes back in SSB4, it will be out of convenience to just reuse Jigglypuff's data from past games to increase the roster number.

 

[Hero Dude]

Well, if Jigglypuff comes back in SSB4, it will be out of convenience to just reuse Jigglypuff's data from past games to increase the roster number.

What makes you say that?

 

[Quake2815]

TOO MUCH PEOPLE. Thats like sayin all pokemon.

 

[Quake2815]

I just hope they have the game engine similar to melee and make ganondorf the way he used to be.

 

[Hero Dude]

Why the way he used to be? Everyone wants him changed.
Use grammer.
*Facepalm*
Welcome to the boards!
45 people is not at all too many. But since you said that in regards to nothing, I have no clue what you meant.

 

[BBQTV]

falcon needs to be unerfed

 

[Big-Cat]

The bold is why Smash is successful. Special moves are comparable, but not it's a big note (a lot of games have standard and special attacks, even ones which aren't fighting games). What Smash has done right is avoid what has made fans like traditional fighting games. Since Street Fighter 2, fighting games have been in decline. Smash comes along and does everything different. The biggest thing is making the game easy to play.

But Smash a fighting game, or is it not? If it is, why would you avoid the aspects people like? Are you also implying that every fighting game following SF2 was part of a decline in fighting games? Are you also implying that Smash revitalized the genre because I would highly disagree with that statement.

All Green would be is Pokemon Trainer with different Pokemon. How is it any more fun? Most fans would see it as stupid as the characters would be exactly the same in their eyes. ZSS is interesting as it adds a unique dynamic to the Zelda/Sheik model. Green would just be the same model to add in pokemon that only a few people are about anyway. PKMN Trainer's three Pokemon made sense as they were iconic to players and represented the trainer well. Green is just to add more pokemon in one character.

Are you saying everything needs to be different or a different spin on something to be fun? I doubt people would BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWL over one similar aspect of two or more characters who play nothing alike.

 

[Hero Dude]

The only real way smash is differant from other major fighting games, is the Nintendo Characters.
It was like that from the start.

 

[BBQTV]

most people dont like PT cause they dont like using all the pokemons and the pokemon get tired so you have to switch and when you do your open to a hit which is why they should be separate with the trainer still their but no switching

 

[Hero Dude]

SO........take up three differant slots? No.

 

[BBQTV]

SO........take up three differant slots? No.

yeah thats the problem but people hack their wii and play them separate

 

[Hero Dude]

Why? There is no point to it. If you don't like the one you are on, press down B.

 

[BBQTV]

your open to a free hit

 

[Hero Dude]

What?


I am gonna talk about something that I have been wanting to discuss.
TINGLE.
He has three games, all on his own. I don't believe he is even Zelda anymore.
But will he be added? Our locations have alot to do with it; how we are conflicted and all.


IMO, He WILL, most likely becouse the poll is held in Japan.

 

[Big-Cat]

Oh no, oh no. Let's not bring Tingle back into discussion. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Hero Dude]

Why is that?

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Why is that?

Because it's Tingle.

 

[Hero Dude]

Because it's Tingle.

As in the most likely new Zelda rep?
Yes.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

But Smash a fighting game, or is it not? If it is, why would you avoid the aspects people like? Are you also implying that every fighting game following SF2 was part of a decline in fighting games? Are you also implying that Smash revitalized the genre because I would highly disagree with that statement.

Here's a question: Why would Smash want to emulate less successful series?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Why the way he used to be? Everyone wants him changed.
Use grammer.
*Facepalm*
Welcome to the boards!
45 people is not at all too many. But since you said that in regards to nothing, I have no clue what you meant.

Correction: People who do not use him (and granted, a small potion of those who do) want him changed

I want a buff to his existing moveset but without changing it signifigantly.

You want a new Ganon, put in Toon Ganon.

I just hope they have the game engine similar to melee and make ganondorf the way he used to be.

I think using faster physics/ L-canceling would make Ganon more playable, his moveset as is would be fine (Just some minor buffs to lag time), otherwise he is fine (look at melee Ganon for those who think Ganon's awful)

As in the most likely new Zelda rep?
Yes.

This is the problem. Some pople want him in, Some people don't. Those who do, really do, those who don't really don't. Theres no discussion because most of the people involved either religiously support him or vehemntly despise him.

 

[Arcadenik]

What makes you say that?

Let's start with the Melee poll.

#1 - Mewtwo (35)
#2 - Mew (24)
#3 - Red (18)
#4 - Misc. Pokemon (12)
#5 - Lugia (11)
#6 - Meowth (8)
#7 - Raichu (7)
#8 - Marill (5)
#8 - Bulbasaur (5)
#8 - Togepi (5)

So for Melee, 10 of the original 12 characters were added first (no Ness and no Jigglypuff). Mewtwo was added first because he was the top choice. Next, Mewtwo and other top choices like Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Sheik, Popo & Nana, and Marth plus Sakurai's wild card Mr. Game & Watch, were added. We have 17 characters in Melee so far.

Sakurai wanted to add more characters but due to time restraints, he had to cut corners and add Ness (since Mother 3 was cancelled at the time), Jigglypuff instead of Meowth (it would explain why Meowth wasn't in a Pokeball, it could have been planned to be playable at one point), and sent in the clones. Ness and Jigglypuff already had data from SSB and Sakurai could have easily imported them over to Melee. The clones are quite easy to add since all Sakurai had to do was copy and paste. And we have 25 characters in the end.

Why do I think Meowth was considered in Melee at one point? Well, look at what was happening in 2000 and 2001. The Gamecube had just been announced and Meowth's Party was showcased as an interactive demo. Sakurai might have wanted to add Meowth to promote said game. It would certainly explain Meowth's Melee trophy and why Meowth wasn't a Pokeball Pokemon.

As far as Brawl is concerned, Meowth wasn't considered at all because Sakurai had finally figured out how to incorporate Red in Smash. So, Sakurai had to make three different characters from scratch. And Sakurai had to add Lucario to promote the 4th gen games. So after Sakurai added four new Pokemon characters plus Pikachu in Brawl, he probably wanted to add more characters so he looked to the characters from Melee. He added Jigglypuff first because she was relatively easy to program compared to Mewtwo. Next, he started working on Mewtwo and planned to replace Pichu with Plusle & Minun (Pra_Mai could have been Pichu's file, only renamed). Sakurai had to stop working on Mewtwo (and the rest of the Forbidden Seven) to focus on adding Sonic from scratch.

If SSB4 is being developed, I think Sakurai would add Pikachu and the 5th gen Pokemon first before he adds any other Pokemon characters. Next, I think Sakurai would add Pokemon Trainer and Mewtwo back. That would be five characters with data imported from past games and one new character made from scratch. If Pokemon is getting five slots and if Sakurai has plenty of time, I think Sakurai might add Meowth from scratch. If there are time restraints, then Sakurai might add Jigglypuff first before Lucario and Meowth is not playable once again. I doubt Sakurai has problems with overrepping 1st gen because he had intended to have six 1st gen Pokemon and two later-gen Pokemon in Brawl.

As far as we know about the Brawl poll, only Steven Stone and Gardevoir were mentioned and I doubt they would get in anyway... so maybe Sakurai might have to fall back on the Melee poll when it comes to Pokemon. Sakurai would likely put in Pikachu (duh), Pokemon Trainer (the original protagonist of the series and a popular choice on the Melee poll), Mewtwo (due to fan demand and was the top choice on the Melee poll) and 5th gen Pokemon (to promote the 5th gen games, if there are no 5th gen games then Lucario might get in)... and maybe Meowth for the fifth slot due to the fact he is next-in-line after Mewtwo and Red on the Melee poll (that is, if Sakurai decides not to cut corners and just add Jigglypuff out of convenience again).

 

[BBQTV]

just never bring tingle up again cause hes a piece of crap whose not worth talking about

 

[Cyn]

Why is that?

Why? Because tingle sucks worse than little mac. Lol jk. Or am I? Seriously though, no tingle please. Besides toon ganon, I think zelda slots are filled

 

[Arcadenik]

I think the fact Tingle is distancing himself from the Zelda games is actually helping his chances. He won't be the 5th Zelda character under the Triforce icon. He would likely have his own world icon, maybe a Rupee. I also really doubt Midna, Zant, Vaati, Wolf Link, and even the sword-headed fairy girl from Zelda 2010 will be playable in Smash anyway. They are all one-shots and in Vaati's case, no longer appearing in latest games.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Out of all the possible Zelda reps proposed at this Forum, I like Tingle the most.

 

[Cyn]

I'd rather see a goron over tingle. You think I'm joking but I'm not. A zora would even be better.

But seriously I'd rather see a host of other characters over tingle. There is just so many other characters that deserve a spot.

Wolf link & midna as one character would be kinda cool.

Since we are on the subject of zelda, new level idea: lost woods with skull kid in the back ground.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Let's start with the Melee poll.

#1 - Mewtwo (35)
#2 - Mew (24)
#3 - Red (18)
#4 - Misc. Pokemon (12)
#5 - Lugia (11)
#6 - Meowth (8)
#7 - Raichu (7)
#8 - Marill (5)
#8 - Bulbasaur (5)
#8 - Togepi (5)

Meowth's standing is...Rather low compared to the other's, and the brawl poll/journal's take more effect now. I think meowth got...One mention? (Or zero)

So for Melee, 10 of the original 12 characters were added first (no Ness and no Jigglypuff). Mewtwo was added first because he was the top choice. Next, Mewtwo and other top choices like Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Sheik, Popo & Nana, and Marth plus Sakurai's wild card Mr. Game & Watch, were added. We have 17 characters in Melee so far.

Sakurai wanted to add more characters but due to time restraints, he had to cut corners and add Ness (since Mother 3 was cancelled at the time), Jigglypuff instead of Meowth (it would explain why Meowth wasn't in a Pokeball, it could have been planned to be playable at one point), and sent in the clones. Ness and Jigglypuff already had data from SSB and Sakurai could have easily imported them over to Melee. The clones are quite easy to add since all Sakurai had to do was copy and paste. And we have 25 characters in the end.

And? How are we so sure that Meowth wasn't just cut? I mean, the bumper had no reason to be cut as well. How many pokemon from 64 got brought back into Melee anyways? Remember: Melee was rather rushed.

Why do I think Meowth was considered in Melee at one point? Well, look at what was happening in 2000 and 2001. The Gamecube had just been announced and Meowth's Party was showcased as an interactive demo. Sakurai might have wanted to add Meowth to promote said game. It would certainly explain Meowth's Melee trophy and why Meowth wasn't a Pokeball Pokemon.

...Well, that's melee. Said game never came out; Meowth isn't really that relevant now.

As far as Brawl is concerned, Meowth wasn't considered at all because Sakurai had finally figured out how to incorporate Red in Smash. So, Sakurai had to make three different characters from scratch. And Sakurai had to add Lucario to promote the 4th gen games. So after Sakurai added four new Pokemon characters plus Pikachu in Brawl, he probably wanted to add more characters so he looked to the characters from Melee. He added Jigglypuff first because she was relatively easy to program compared to Mewtwo. Next, he started working on Mewtwo and planned to replace Pichu with Plusle & Minun (Pra_Mai could have been Pichu's file, only renamed). Sakurai had to stop working on Mewtwo (and the rest of the Forbidden Seven) to focus on adding Sonic from scratch.

Can someone get proof of the Pra_Mai translation? I swear I've been reading other places otherwise. Jiggs didn't get in only because she was easier to program; IIRC, She's also the second most popular poke, had a roll in anime like meowth (Which is the only true useful thing both did) And she was in all the way since Smash 64 Oh and she had a unique moveset still.

If SSB4 is being developed, I think Sakurai would add Pikachu and the 5th gen Pokemon first before he adds any other Pokemon characters. Next, I think Sakurai would add Pokemon Trainer and Mewtwo back. That would be five characters with data imported from past games and one new character made from scratch.

You forgot jiggs on there But yes; It's basically that, however continuing on;

If Pokemon is getting five slots and if Sakurai has plenty of time, I think Sakurai might add Meowth from scratch. If there are time restraints, then Sakurai might add Jigglypuff first before Lucario and Meowth is not playable once again. I doubt Sakurai has problems with overrepping 1st gen because he had intended to have six 1st gen Pokemon and two later-gen Pokemon in Brawl.

Uh, intended? You know, they could've been cut for different reasons. Sakurai didn't "Lose time" Of any sorts; He even said the roster was decided way back in 2005 (Discluding sonic) Can people stop throwing this around so much?

Anyways; Those 5 are already set in stone, but what makes the series NEED Six reps (And eight movesets) And all that rep on 1st gen from a character that we aren't even sure If he considered at any point? + There's other series that still need love (Golden Sun, F-Zero, Metroid and others wish to have a word with you) And balancing with characters.

Answer - It doesn't + If he considered Pichu and put in Lucario like people keep going on about in this thread, what would make Meowth a much more worthy choice than those?

Now, I like meowth and all, but truth be told his chances are rather slim (Even IF Sakurai considered him)

 

[SmashChu]

Does it matter if "only Nsiders want Meowth"? It only proves that I am not the only one who supports Meowth. Really, if Mewtwo was in Brawl, Meowth would have more supporters right now. I remember when Brawl was announced, almost everyone were confident that Mewtwo (plus Pikachu and Jigglypuff but not Pichu) would be in Brawl and they were supporting Lucario and Meowth and almost everyone were (Smashchu's notes:it's "was, not were. Everyone is singular) against the idea of Red being in Smash before the Pokemon Trainer was confirmed. Most fans are supporting Mewtwo now because they want him back. So they are pouring a lot of energy supporting Mewtwo that Meowth has little support now.

I bolded the statement as yes, you are technically right.

The problem with it being only from Nsider is that Nsider had a lot of characters they liked that certainly were not what people wanted in the game. Paper Mario is another suggestion. These are ones I see more from people who seem younger, and I'm not sure the ideas would site well.

Truth is, Meowth never had that much support. A lot of Pokemon fans wanted and expected Lucario. He was quite popular. Meowth's popularity was tied mostly to the show. Once the show became less relevant, most people stopped caring. Contrast this to Jigglypuff, who got airtime because she was a popular Pokemon (second only to Pikachu). Even the Melee poll shows he wasn't that popular. He was beaten by a lot of other characters, and this was back when people still watched the show.

No one expected Meowth in Brawl like you claim. We expected Lucario. We did not expect Meowth.

Gunpei Yokoi, the creator of the Game & Watch and the Game Boy, was also a close friend and something of a mentor to Sakurai before his death. Game & Watch could also be seen as something of a tribute to him and the time in Nintendo's history where "Mario" wasn't the first word that came to everyone's head, but mostly, Game & Watch is just an awesome character that shouldn't go anywhere.

No, Gunpei was a mentor to Miyamoto, the creator of Mario.

Well, if Jigglypuff comes back in SSB4, it will be out of convenience to just reuse Jigglypuff's data from past games to increase the roster number.

Jigglypuff was about to be removed in Melee, but she was kept because a lot of people liked her. I doubt Jigglypuff would be gone in the fourth game.

But Smash a fighting game, or is it not? If it is, why would you avoid the aspects people like? Are you also implying that every fighting game following SF2 was part of a decline in fighting games? Are you also implying that Smash revitalized the genre because I would highly disagree with that statement.

To the bold, yes. The only fighting games to come close to SF2 are Smash and Tekken. And yes, Smash revitalized the genre. Don't beleive me? Look at Fighting games sales.
Smash Melee/Brawl
Tekken 3
SF2
Smash 64
More Tekken
WWE fighters
Killer Instinct

Are you saying everything needs to be different or a different spin on something to be fun? I doubt people would BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWL over one similar aspect of two or more characters who play nothing alike.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.[/quote]

The problem with Green (which is what I'll call it now) is that there is nothing at all remotly interesting. The only reason people bring up the idea is too add more pokemon characters. Heck, some fans want NO pokemon characters in Smash.

Pokemon Trainer was a great idea because the character was unique and iconic. The trainer is the main character, and they found a way to add him. His Pokemon are also iconic. Most people are fans of the earlier games and most of the stuff from gen 1 is the most iconic. When you think starters, you think Bulbasaur, Chramander and Squirtle. These characters could be alone and still make fans happy. It just works out better if they are a pair.

Green is only too add Pokemon who could not be playable on their own. Typically, it's suggested when trying to add a pokemon no one would agree with in their own right. Garvidor isn't that important and is liked because it looks like a real woman. No one really wants to play as her.Or worse, they'll want to cram Pichu or Jigglypuff in there. People want these characters to be on their own. Why stuff them into a new trainer.

What you misunderstood was that I'm saying that all characters need to be unique. It;s not that, but that Green adds nothing. Not even an interesting face. With a character like Lucas, who has a lot of Ness's moves, people still see the play style difference and see them as separate. People will see Green as a carbon copy. Pokemon Trainer was unique. But, when you make more of him, it will feel tired real quick. Pokemon Trainer would lose anything that made him special as it's just plastered onto another character. What made ZSS unique is that she takes the Zelda/Sheik model and twist the mechanic. Now, rather then switching at will, you only do so with the final smash. Pokemon Trainer's dynamic would be where a new even makes the trainer switch, or something to that effect. Also, these multiple characters work becuase they have different dynamics. Zelda is slow, but has powerful magic attacks, where Sheik is fast but lacks the KOing power. Samus is defensive and can survive where ZSS is offensive and can't survive very well. Green would have to continue that in some way.

 

[Big-Cat]

To the bold, yes. The only fighting games to come close to SF2 are Smash and Tekken. And yes, Smash revitalized the genre. Don't beleive me? Look at Fighting games sales.
Smash Melee/Brawl
Tekken 3
SF2
Smash 64
More Tekken
WWE fighters
Killer Instinct

We're just looking at this from a sales perspective. We have to look at why the Smash games are the best selling ones. I don't think the simpler controls and gameplay (which may annoy some people) were as big factors as the idea of a Nintendo crossover.

EDIT: Thought I add this in because I can, Street Fighter IV has sold 2.65 million copies.

When I was eight years old and saw that famous SSB commercial, I wanted the game because it had my favorite Nintendo characters in it. It never crossed my mind as to how the game was played or that it was a fighting game. Heck, I didn't even know my genres until I was about eleven. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason for many others. The only other fighting game series to feature iconic casts are the crossover games like the vs. Capcom games. When you think about it, it's the same hook licensed games have.

What you misunderstood was that I'm saying that all characters need to be unique. It;s not that, but that Green adds nothing. Not even an interesting face. With a character like Lucas, who has a lot of Ness's moves, people still see the play style difference and see them as separate. People will see Green as a carbon copy. Pokemon Trainer was unique. But, when you make more of him, it will feel tired real quick. Pokemon Trainer would lose anything that made him special as it's just plastered onto another character. What made ZSS unique is that she takes the Zelda/Sheik model and twist the mechanic. Now, rather then switching at will, you only do so with the final smash. Pokemon Trainer's dynamic would be where a new even makes the trainer switch, or something to that effect. Also, these multiple characters work becuase they have different dynamics. Zelda is slow, but has powerful magic attacks, where Sheik is fast but lacks the KOing power. Samus is defensive and can survive where ZSS is offensive and can't survive very well. Green would have to continue that in some way.

First off, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I understand what you're saying now about Pokemon Trainer and for Green as well.

However, I have to say if what you say for Zamus is indeed what the developers designed her to be as, I would say that's a mistake. For several characters in one, wouldn't you want to make it such that the two complement each other and they can be swapped easily? The way it is now, it limits your options for what you want. I would say the defensive/offensive setup is enough and make the swap done via an exclusive fourth taunt.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

We're just looking at this from a sales perspective. We have to look at why the Smash games are the best selling ones. I don't think the simpler controls and gameplay (which may annoy some people) were as big factors as the idea of a Nintendo crossover.

People come for the characters but stay for the gameplay. If the first game played like crap or demanded too much from the players right away, they'd lose interest and shy away from the rest of the series. They wouldn't put up with it, even if it did have Nintendo characters. They're not ********.

 

[Arcadenik]

A lot of people expected Mewtwo to stay in Brawl. Mewtwo was removed. A lot of people expected Lyn, Samurai Goroh, Deoxys, Krystal, Isaac, and Ridley to be in Brawl. They ended up unplayable. A lot of people expected Ganondorf to be decloned. Ganondorf remained a clone of Captain Falcon. A lot of people did not expect R.O.B. and the Pokemon Trainer to be playable. They became playable.

Smashchu, if you think Meowth became popular because he was on the anime, you are wrong. If Meowth was not popular before the anime, he wouldn't have become the second most recurring Pokemon on the show after Pikachu. Jigglypuff should be the second recurring Pokemon on the show if she was the second most popular Pokemon after Pikachu. Meowth got airtime because he was popular... just like Jigglypuff who got airtime because she was popular... and most certainly like Pikachu who got airtime because he was popular. And notice who are still on the show? Pikachu and Meowth. All the other Pokemon, including the starters and Jigglypuff, come and go but Pikachu and Meowth are the only Pokemon who are still around. Jigglypuff is more popular now because her popularity now ties with the Smash games. That is the only thing Jigglypuff has going for her. Take that away and Jigglypuff is just another Pokemon.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

A lot of people expected Mewtwo to stay in Brawl. Mewtwo was removed.

Those are the people that denied that he had programming issues and thought brawl would have 40-50 characters because of the journal which article wasn't actually even there.

Even with working on a 45 roster, 5 character's is rather a lot...1/9th of Representation. Even if It does get 6 reps, I doubt any priority into it.

Lyn, Samurai Goroh, Deoxys, Krystal, Isaac, and Ridley to be in Brawl. They ended up unplayable.

Lyn) Never had a shot.
Samurai Goroh) Roster number probably did this...And possibly lack of originality in Sakurai's eyes.
Deoxys) Programming issues wish to have a word with you...And he's really not all that important
Krystal) There was always a slight possibility that Falco and Wolf would get in over her, It just seems everyone ignored it asides from me.
Isaac) Here's one I actually find myself agreeable. WHY WHY WHY.
Ridley) ...Programming issues that everybody ignored.

But anyways; I can easily go on and on, but a vast majority of newcomers were expected:
-Ike (most recent lord...Wasn't his 2nd game announced then)
-Diddy (Removed from melee blah)
-Lucas (Sakurai's personal pref of Mother 3 for anyone who payed attention - He wasn't next in line, he was FOR SURE IN LINE...And a lot of people agreed)
-Sonic (Most requested...Do I need to say more?)
-King D3 (After MK This guy was literately obvious)
-Olimar (Miyamoto's only franchise without a PC, An actually good recent rep, unique, etc)
-Lucario (Basically; The first pokemon in line to rep the newest gen)
-Wolf (This was less expected than others; But I do know he was in a lot of roster's. Not as many as krystal and probably not as many as falco)

The only ones after the reveal trailer that weren't WERE Pokemon Trainer (Because we all forgot about the melee polls y; Tho I always thought of this as a possibility), and ROB (Sakurai's wild card!...We all knew a WTF Character was coming; Just didn't know it was him)

Smashchu, if you think Meowth became popular because he was on the anime, you are wrong. If Meowth was not popular before the anime, he wouldn't have become the second most recurring Pokemon on the show after Pikachu. Jigglypuff should be the second recurring Pokemon on the show if she was the second most popular Pokemon after Pikachu. Meowth got airtime because he was popular... just like Jigglypuff who got airtime because she was popular... and most certainly like Pikachu who got airtime because he was popular. And notice who are still on the show? Pikachu and Meowth. All the other Pokemon, including the starters and Jigglypuff, come and go but Pikachu and Meowth are the only Pokemon who are still around. Jigglypuff is more popular now because her popularity now ties with the Smash games. That is the only thing Jigglypuff has going for her. Take that away and Jigglypuff is just another Pokemon.

tl;dr: Meowth and Jigglypuff were somehow popular by japan, they got airtime, meowth still shows up in anime, Jiggly doesn't.

The key here is "Take that away" Really, there's no reason she should be removed now. She has a unique moveset and people already complained enough over four characters. + Poke representation is mainly based upon popularity and gens (1st gen + Usually *Insert most recent gen here* Seemingly)

And I think what SmashChu is trying to say is that you treat It so likely that we'd get 6 reps in the first place when the roster number is probably somewhere around 45. Now, you might go screaming "TIME CONSTRAINTS! TIME CONSTRAINTS!" But you have to realize that the roster for brawl was decided in 2005. It wasn't by any means time constraints that stopped it. Poke/LoZ/Mario technically didn't get an increase, thus why do they deserve 2 over other series?

And IF The reason Plusle&M (Pichu replacement or w/e) Didn't show up along with the fact lucario's in, why would he return to Melee ideas over Brawl ideas? Why would he boot jigglypuff over reputting in other vets people liked and will apparently complain about? Oh, and add to the fact that Sakurai also intended to replace Ness with Lucas in melee, did he return specifically to that idea? Lol, no.

Yeah, there is none. Meowth's only slight hope if If the series gets 6-7 Reps.

 

[Kholdstare]

Let's not forget Jigglypuff is the second most popular character in Japan, and always was. Japan likes kawaii, and it is evident by the huge franchise Hello Kitty does over there.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

A lot of people expected Ganondorf to be decloned. Ganondorf remained a clone of Captain Falcon.

*Facepalm* He is not a clone, he shares the ANIMATIONS but the moves themselves funtion so differently from Falcon. He's heavier, stronger, laggier, and uses enirely different moves. I'm sick of people calling him a clone, and I'm sick of people calling ANIMATIONS grounds for being a clone. Mario and luigi are closer to being clones than falcon and Ganon, because despite many animations being changed, the knockback, hutstun, leg, etc. are similar bewtween the two, while falcon and ganon's are not.

EDIT: Just so long as I don't have to make a ne wpost

@Justblaze: The problem with using characters that are non-lord causes people who are even fans of the series to be alien to certain characters. Many characters are not nessecary to even be used, or even recruited, limiting thier popularity. The only ones who do not fall inot this are supporting characters who are nessecary in some chapters, major story characters, and villains (though none of these have more popularirty/probability then the lords, unfortunatly)

 

[Justblaze647]

We need moar Fire Emblem characters.

And they dont have to be restricted to the lords of their respective games.

 

[Kholdstare]

*Facepalm* He is not a clone, he shares the ANIMATIONS but the moves themselves funtion so differently from Falcon. He's heavier, stronger, laggier, and uses enirely different moves. I'm sick of people calling him a clone, and I'm sick of people calling ANIMATIONS grounds for being a clone. Mario and luigi are closer to being clones than falcon and Ganon, because despite many animations being changed, the knockback, hutstun, leg, etc. are similar bewtween the two, while falcon and ganon's are not.

Yes, but they are competitively the same. They both have **** priority, no long ranged options, and horrible recoveries. As for the latter, Luigi is different from Mario because he has no cape, no F.L.U.D.D., and no bouncing fireballs. This makes a world of difference. They are not clones, but they actually are clones.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

...I can see your point...It just took a MYMer to show me, lol. At least you actually gave a reason how they are clones. I still don't think they are clones (as least not while Falco and Fox are considered different) but I do see how they are more similar than I thought.

Though, I though Ganon's priority was good, doesn't his jab, ftilt, etc. at least clank with almost everything...unless I have the wrong definition of priority in my head.

 

[Big-Cat]

People come for the characters but stay for the gameplay. If the first game played like crap or demanded too much from the players right away, they'd lose interest and shy away from the rest of the series. They wouldn't put up with it, even if it did have Nintendo characters. They're not ********.

The opposite can be true as well. If there's not enough to explore in the gameplay, people will lose interest, but the game shouldn't demand too much on an introductory level.

Basically, there should be an initial learning curve which is just the controls and should be relatively small. Most players can stop learning at that point if they want to.The following curve would then be finding out the various properties of the controls like learning that most Up Bs will leave you in a helpless state and learning how to not be caught in a disadvantageous situation. Finally, there's the learning curve for each character and this overlaps with the previous curve.

TL;DR Easy to learn, hard to master.

 

[SmashChu]

We're just looking at this from a sales perspective. We have to look at why the Smash games are the best selling ones. I don't think the simpler controls and gameplay (which may annoy some people) were as big factors as the idea of a Nintendo crossover.

EDIT: Thought I add this in because I can, Street Fighter IV has sold 2.65 million copies.

When I was eight years old and saw that famous SSB commercial, I wanted the game because it had my favorite Nintendo characters in it. It never crossed my mind as to how the game was played or that it was a fighting game. Heck, I didn't even know my genres until I was about eleven. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason for many others. The only other fighting game series to feature iconic casts are the crossover games like the vs. Capcom games. When you think about it, it's the same hook licensed games have.

Toise basically got this one

People come for the characters but stay for the gameplay. If the first game played like crap or demanded too much from the players right away, they'd lose interest and shy away from the rest of the series. They wouldn't put up with it, even if it did have Nintendo characters. They're not ********.

First off, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I understand what you're saying now about Pokemon Trainer and for Green as well.

You don't have to apoligize. It's a simple mistake, and it could just as easily be my fault as I may have wrote is in a way to make it be misunderstood. It's no big deal.

However, I have to say if what you say for Zamus is indeed what the developers designed her to be as, I would say that's a mistake. For several characters in one, wouldn't you want to make it such that the two complement each other and they can be swapped easily? The way it is now, it limits your options for what you want. I would say the defensive/offensive setup is enough and make the swap done via an exclusive fourth taunt.

Then they are just Zelda and Sheik. Nothing special about that. The Final Smash buts a new twist on the idea making it interesting. It also make sense to the character, but that's another story.

Smashchu, if you think Meowth became popular because he was on the anime, you are wrong. If Meowth was not popular before the anime, he wouldn't have become the second most recurring Pokemon on the show after Pikachu. Jigglypuff should be the second recurring Pokemon on the show if she was the second most popular Pokemon after Pikachu. Meowth got airtime because he was popular... just like Jigglypuff who got airtime because she was popular... and most certainly like Pikachu who got airtime because he was popular. And notice who are still on the show? Pikachu and Meowth. All the other Pokemon, including the starters and Jigglypuff, come and go but Pikachu and Meowth are the only Pokemon who are still around. Jigglypuff is more popular now because her popularity now ties with the Smash games. That is the only thing Jigglypuff has going for her. Take that away and Jigglypuff is just another Pokemon.

Seriously? No seriously. You think this is true?
No. Your wrong. A character didn't have to be popular to be in Meowth's possition, but the only reason people care is that he was in the anima. If you don't know, Team Rocket is based off of the Doronjo Gang from the Yatterman TV show in Japan. Here is a description of the team

The comical enemies of the Yatterman crew, the sexy Doronjo and her sidekicks Boyacky (in green) and Tonzra (in purple) are always scheming to steal something, typically parts of the Skull Stone for their seldom-seen boss. Doronjo is the comically evil leader of the trio, usually bossing around her two idiot henchmen, and even in the game, they do most of the attacks for her. They’re always foiled by the Yatterman team, and basically work like the lovable losers Team Rocket from the Pokemon anime series. Also of note: a recurring joke is for Doronjo to be caught in an explosion, and despite being physically fine, she’s usually left in some state of near-nakedness by the blast.

The characters will be appearing in Tatsunoko vs Capcom hitting the western world in January. Team Rocket follows the same dynamic as Doronjo bosses around the other two and has one female leader and males (aside:I'm not sure how Doronjo's minions acts, so I can't compare James and Meowth to them). They also have a big letter on their cloths and both get blown up at the end.

Using the Melee poll data, Japan didn't seem like like Meowth particularly over any other Pokemon on it's own merit. Seeing where it placed, it's inclusion on the anime was probably a result of it just being a good pokemon to use for that role (as the role was already established by the Doronjo Gang). Thus, it is probably only liked here at all because it was in the anime (the anime came right around the same time as the game. Where I lived, the show aired first).

Those are the people that denied that he had programming issues and thought brawl would have 40-50 characters because of the journal which article wasn't actually even there.

No, people just thought he'd be back. There wasn't any reason to think he'd be gone.

Lyn) Never had a shot.
Samurai Goroh) Roster number probably did this...And possibly lack of originality in Sakurai's eyes.
Deoxys) Programming issues wish to have a word with you...And he's really not all that important
Krystal) There was always a slight possibility that Falco and Wolf would get in over her, It just seems everyone ignored it asides from me.
Isaac) Here's one I actually find myself agreeable. WHY WHY WHY.
Ridley) ...Programming issues that everybody ignored.

I'd post another reaction image, but two is too many for one post. People here love Lyn. Ridley was probably not considered very much. When Sakurai mentione him in the NP interview, he wasn't very definitive. He was a little coy, making me think he didn't consider Ridley for Brawl. He'll probably be one of the lapse characters. Otherwise, it's about right.[/quote]

 

[Big-Cat]

Then they are just Zelda and Sheik. Nothing special about that. The Final Smash buts a new twist on the idea making it interesting. It also make sense to the character, but that's another story.

How does it make sense to the character? Never in the Metroid games has Samus' armor fallen off her into pieces. It's always been like the Power Rangers/Super Sentai/Magical Girl genre.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Even you mentioned that the style of the two duos are extremely different.We shouldn't have to make the two duos "transform" differently just for the sake of there being a unique quality. Everything else about them is different enough to begin with.

EDIT: Just realized this is similar to our Green argument, but I feel this is different.

In its current state, Samus/Zamus users can't swap to the other one easily when they need to unlike Sheik and Zelda. To me, that's defeating the purpose of the duo aspect.