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[da K.I.D.]

theres also the chance that you can make people run into it when you extend the range of it, by using it at the ledges.

 

[Zatchiel]

dsmash has the potential to gimp people by itself if they DI downwards, it can send at a really low angle lol.

other than that its only really better (imo) for KO's if you camp peoples landing lag with it who cant move quickly through the air; the hitbox with KO potential last for a short while and will be strong enough to KO them if you fire it, they airdodge into the ground, then it hits them. Fsmash doesnt do this obviously with the single hitbox that only lasts a couple of frames

So which is better used to KO with?
I normally only use DSmash to punish landing lag, and also space out.
FSmash, Uair, and Bair are my primary killers.

 

[Tenki]

Fsmash has the best knockback/hitstun, and it can be used easily out of foxtrot / DDP.

But if that goes stale, I try to use D-smash while camping for spotdodge (charge > sweetspot)

 

[Kinzer]

I honestly use DSmash as punishment on landing, not necessarily as a kill move.

If it does kills, that's just a bonus to me.

 

[B.A.M.]

isnt dsmash slightly faster like by a couple frames? its the safer one on shield with lovely IASA frames which sometimes nets you a reverse stutterstep fsmash ( such a silly bait). And its great because good shffuair spacing scares hoes which mean ff AD which translates into as Dj Browny said stupid DI of th dsmash

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. last I checked, f smash is 17 frames, down smash is 16 frames. Its only 1 frame faster.

2. Down smash is not safer than f smash, unless you hit with the 3rd and final hitbox. If the first hit is shielded, none of the other hitboxes can hit which makes it uber punishable.

 

[Zatchiel]

So DSmash is for Punishing, and FSmash is for KO?
Kinda weirded out <.>

 

[infomon]

Yeah pretty much.

 

[Kinzer]

DSmash is a lovely punisher though.

How much damage does it do?

How fast does it come out after you're done with the charging phase?

And considering with the first hitbox that it's Sonic's 2nd best K.O. move in terms of K.O. power all the while having the tendency to send at wacky angles.

I'm not complaining.

+ What KID mentioned.

 

[da K.I.D.]

uncharged, does like 13/14 % i think

from release of charge to hitbox, is like 1-3 frames.

 

[Tesh]

Down tilt locking.

I have been practicing landing and executing these but I wonder, is it worth it? I have trouble landing the first down tilt and following people as they fall towards the other side. Even when it goes well and I land 3 or 4 pivot dtilts, its barely any damage compared to uthrow setups, asc setups etc.

Is there anything useful I can do out of a downtilt lock? Seems like its not worth trying.

 

[Kupo Rose]

True. It's not really worth going for but it's nice that it's there as an option. It's really what you follow-up after the Dtilt lock that gets you the nice %'s.

Dtilt Dtilt (Dtilt?) Utilt
Dtilt Dtilt (Dtilt?) Ftilt
Dtilt Dtilt (Dtilt?) Grab

or Dtilt > ShFair

Works great on spacies/(some) heavies.



edit... *looks at Tenki's post* I might've misinterpreted again... fffffffffff

 

[Tenki]

we had a d-tilt lock? (inescapable)

I usually try to string a grab from a D-tilt (If I get multiple tilts, I usually try to grab when they're about to land from that short aerial time)

 

[da K.I.D.]

you can down tilt shiek and fox to about 40 and 50 respectively reliably. I have down tilted a fox on a wall to like 65 tho.

if you are near a wall, one thing you could do is down tilt until they are near the wall and than jab combo lock them on the wall.

and the d tilt lock is mainly to get them to about 20 than grab for a couple pummels into up throw which when performed correctly is an inescapble 40% with an up throw set up for even more damage

 

[Zatchiel]

I usually go for Dtilt > Utilt, or Dtilt > Fair.
Never really thought about grabbing o_0
But then again, i don't do it a lot in my serious matches.

 

[BSP]

Dtilt is actually a pretty good move for Sonic. I probably need to use it more.

 

[Kinzer]

I just thought the fact that the opponent was constantly getting hit by DTilt was more of a mind@#$% than anything.

 

[Sperz]

How do I spin shot?

 

[Kupo Rose]

SideB charge then flick the C stick down (easiest way imo). Release the SideB immediately after you do this.

Or you could, charge DownB and then flick the C stick. (This method only works in the air though)

 

[Zatchiel]

I can't really use Side+B spinshot anymore unless it's from the ground lol
But Side+B i found easier, so it's what i started out with ^__- b
Side+B, Flick C-stick down
Down+B, Air only, Flick C-stick anywhere but down(I think)
But Kupo explained this.

 

[Kinzer]

I flick it to the side. That's what I've been told to do.

 

[Kinzer]

Bump.

Somebody tell me everything about the Ledgeshot please.

 

[Espy Rose]

I went into some pretty good detail about ledgeshooting awhile back, let me see if I can fish out the post I made:

Nah, screw it. I'll just post my findings here:

Everyone should already know about "ledgeshooting". If not, go watch SonicOrochi's videos.

Obviously, Sonic can do this at any angle or distance from the ledge (for example, when recovering), just as long as the spinshot doesn't grab the ledge.

Ledgeshooting high results in Sonic moving over a distance of land near the ledge while being above it. This allows for aerials. Be aware that using aerials practically stops Sonic's horizontal movement. The angle at which you ledgeshoot judges how far you will move above the level.

Ledgeshooting low results in Sonic sliding over a distance of land near the ledge. Doing so allows for any Smash or tilt, as well as all variations of grabs (so you can pivot grab, Dash attack cancel grab, stutter step fsmash, etc). The angle at which you ledgeshoot judges how far you will slide on the level.

Specials are all also available during either variation of the ledgeshoot.

There's very little difference between DownB and SideB ledgeshots. The only difference is that downB can be done slightly faster. Most stages don't require speedy ledgeshoots unless you want to ledgeshoot high.

At the very least, learning how to ledgeshoot with DownB alone is more difficult, but it's the most flexible. SideB is much, MUCH easier, but it sacrifices the ability to quickly ledgeshoot high (you can still ledgeshoot high, just not as fast as with downB).

DownB also has more risks involved since it's slightly more technical.

I'd say learn both. DownB is more flexible, but SideB has much, much more room for error.

=====

My experience with ledgeshooting on the levels:

I used the MLG Stages for experimenting, and even so, most levels are consistent so long as they share the same type of grounding as other levels. Keep that in mind.

This is only going to cover sliding, grounded ledgeshots, since air ledgeshots are pretty much universal to the levels. This will also only cover ledgeshooting from the point where you are grabbing the edge, since ledgeshooting is much, MUCH easier to execute at any other point off of any given level (probably be better to call that variant the spinshot, because that's all it is: a spinshot off of the level).

Again, to clarify:

Spinshot: Everyone knows what this is.

Ledgeshot: A spinshot done after falling off the ledge of a level.

Battlefield: Properly done (aim so that Sonic just passes the lowest point of the ledge), Sonic slides toward those fancy blue circular designs on the ground (about a little less than half the length of BF). Both sides function the same. Again, aim so that Sonic's body just passes the lowest point of the edge.

Castle Siege: Can't do it on here. At all. The first transformation keeps you stuck underneath the ledges, the second transformation has no ledges to do this with, and the third, no matter at what angle, sends you straight down toward the blast zone. On the first transformation, you are able to wall jump back to the edge, however.

Delfino Plaza: Can't slide here at all. None of the formations allow it. Aerial ledgeshoots are possible, however, and while on the main, floating platforms, aerial ledgeshooting properly (with downB, and as soon as possible) sends you to the complete opposite end of the platform.

Final Destination: Can't do it here. Ledge doesn't allow it. You are able to wall jump back to the ledge, however.

Halberd: Can't slide directly from the ledge on the floating portion. If you execute a ledgeshoot at a certain timing, you DO slide on the level starting at about the mid point of the main platform and move toward the angled portion.

As for the level on the actual ship, yes, you can slide. However, a mistimed ledgeshot sends you straight down instead. Recover is possible, but keep in mind that you are without a second jump. Your only real options are upB and wall jumps. In other words, mistiming on this section of the level is very dangerous. Be sure to be able to consistently ledgeshoot here.

The sliding distance is pretty good, too.

Lylat Cruise: Not possible to ledgeshoot. You fall right under the level.

Pokémon Stadium: Not possible. You get stuck under the lip. You are able to wall jump back, however.

Smashville: This is one of the better levels to execute this. The range for sliding is just as good as Battlefield. The timing for a proper ledgeshot is the same as well (just as Sonic passes the bottom of the level, rather than passing the end of the ledge for Battlefield).

Yoshi’s Island: Brawl: Because of the angles, this level makes a great place for ledgeshooting. Proper ledgeshots take you about 1/3 of the way into the level.

Though not a focus of this section, spinshots from any other area off the level gives for a much better sliding distance. Spinshotting directly onto either ledge sends you practically 1/2 of the distance of the level.

Ledgeshooting is unable to do this because of the distance you are at when doing a ledgeshot.

Brinstar: This level is funky. When the green portion of the floor attaches the level together, ledgeshots from the left ledge pop you up at the top of the destructible floor. You slide pretty much the distance starting at the left of the green wall, and to the right of it and onto the actual level.

Destroying the wall still allows you to land on it during a ledgeshot from the left, and you still slide even after destroying a small number of them (I believe after 4-5 of them are destroyed, you simply land).

It's impossible to ledgeshot on this level (aerial or ground) otherwise. You simply don't rise high enough to slide on the level.

Frigate Orpheon: Starting transformation is tough to ledgeshot on. It's impossible on the left ledge due to the top part jutting out. Doing a ledgeshoot results in getting sent down and toward the stage.

Spinshotting from below the lip on this level, however, results in an autosnap ledge grab. Pretty handy.

The right side only lets you slide so long as the moving platform isn't below you. The timing is almost the same as Battlefield and Smashville (for this level, you time it so that Sonic's just about to pass the bottom of the level when you release. The distance is decent, but not to the same degree as Battlefield or Smashville.

For the second transformation, ledgeshots have the same risk vs. reward factor as Halberd. They slide for the distance up until the dip towards the center.

Green Greens: I haven't experimented here yet.

Norfair: This level is awkward. I'm only going to discuss the center platform. The timing is, again, similar in that you release it right as you are about to pass the bottom of the level. However, because of the center platform's attributes, you practically warp from the corner under the ledge to a standing animation on the opposite edge of the platform.

You don't slide far, but the distance traveled when you start to slide is pretty decent.

Pictochat: This level shares the exact same results as Yoshi's Island, more or less.

Pokémon Stadium 2: This level...oh boy.
You can do it here, it's possible, but the timing is TIGHT. You MUST be practically frame perfect, and ONLY the DOWNB version works, because it's the only variation fast enough.

Properly timed, you can't even do the sliding ledgeshot. Aerial is the only way, here unless you spinshot from a distance off of the level.

If you screw up? The level sends you straight down and towards the center, and unless you get lucky with that TINY wall you can wall jump on (not the pillar holding the level up, the one above it), or your opponent is within HA distance, you are DEAD.

The risk is incredibly high here. Better just to not ledgeshot. Spinshotting, however, is easy.

Rainbow Cruise: Can't do it on the ship. Left side has a lip (you can wall jump back), and the right side is too low for the ledgeshot to reach, even aerially. It only allows for a regrab of the ledge.

Technically, any other portion of Rainbow Cruise is spinshotting from a distance, so I won't cover that here. However, during the swinging platform, you could probably get a good slide by spinshotting into it while it's at an upward angle.

=====

Other things to mention:

On Yoshi's Island and Pictochat, mistiming the downB by fastfalling into a spinshot from the ledge results in a regrab of the ledge if you spinshot fast enough. Same applies to other levels with large vertical walls (possibly Green Greens too).

You can regulate the distance of your ledgeshot in two distinct ways:

1: Timing the ledgeshot: By spinshotting during a certain time after the ledge drop, you alter the distance at which you travel.

2: Controlling your ledgeshot prior to landing on the level: During the spinshot, and before you land on the level for the sliding portion, if you hold back, you slow down the speed at which you spinshot travels (though you can't SEE this because you are typically hugging the wall. This can be seen very well on Smashville or Battlefield). This alters the sliding distance your character can travel.

=====

Anyways, I might make a video or provide pictures sometime down the line, but until then, that's what I experienced while messing around with spinshots and ledgeshots.

Still need to test Green Greens too.

Hope that helps a little bit.

 

[Kinzer]

Thank you kindly Espy.

Tails, I'm sorry if I was yelling at you. ;_;

 

[sonictailslink]

Don't worry Kinzer. I don't think you were yelling at me on AIM about that. I have to give it a try on Yoshi Island Brawl since I've been practicing it on Battlefield.

 

[Paix]

Does Sonic have a chaingrab on Ness? I heard he did....I assume a grab or ground release?

 

[Espy Rose]

Ground release to dash grab works on Ness and Lucas, I believe.

 

[da K.I.D.]

not on lucas, the only thing guaranteed on lucas is dash attack and f tilt.

I think I would try dash grabbing a lucas anyway even if its not guaranteed.

 

[Espy Rose]

Why doesn't it work on Lucas again?

 

[Browny]

lucas slides much further on a release

 

[-Axis-]

Don't dtilt and ftilt come out on the same frame? Why wouldn't dtilt be guaranteed on Lucas?

 

[~TBS~]

Don't dtilt and ftilt come out on the same frame? Why wouldn't dtilt be guaranteed on Lucas?

Lucas releases too far away, out of dtilt range. Ftilt or regrab is good i think, but from what i've experienced, Lucas slides too far away for dtilt.

 

[Espy Rose]

This all includes buffering the dash grab out of the grab release, correct?

Weird.

 

[Trent]

What's this new AT you've been working on Espy? Or is it top secret noone allowed?

 

[Espy Rose]

I told KID about it, but I don't think he quite understands the mechanic.

I want to be able to execute it almost perfectly, so I've been practicing here and there.
After awhile though, the novelty's kinda worn down. However, the potential uses are still pretty cool, especially if you're tech savy enough to do it in the middle of an intense game.

I'll be making a video soon.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im thinking the stuff I came up with just now is going to be way better than what espys working on.

hes basically working on what seems to be new movement mechanics, which allow longer string sometimes, while Im working on a new bonafide kill set up.

 

[Zatchiel]

Is Bair > Dash-Grab at low %'s a legit pseudo?
I do it....
A lot....

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic?
Kill set ups?

If you're serious, let me know so I can laugh harder.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Is Bair > Dash-Grab at low %'s a legit pseudo?
I do it....
A lot....

thats definitely a guaranteed combo and actually is part of what im working on.

 

[Zatchiel]

It's a combo? o_o
Tells me to use this more....
I'll get to testing more on Sonic.