Official Ruleset v1.0 Topic - Start Discussion

[CT Chia]

After the gold release is done I want to start a project here for the formation of a WBR Certified Ruleset. Once the gold release is done I'll edit this with perhaps how we should go about doing this. I'm quite familiar how the ruleset is made in the SBR, and I can add some of my own little tweaks to it (which needs to be done since this is being done by scratch). First and foremost will be the stage list, so I will likely have everyone post their idea of Starters and Counterpicks. If a stage appears on everyone's list under the same category, it will be on that section on the final rulelist. If there is any doubt, then I will open a Starter/Counter/Banned poll here for the stage where discussion can take place for it.

Before we do that though, we should determine, what defines a "Starter" stage? Should it be...

A truly neutral stage that doesnt favor any character much over another?
Or should it be a little lax in the sense that some stages might be allowed that people wouldn't expect at first, but can be neutral in certain matchups (and if it isn't applicable in the matchup, then someone would have striken it). Example: Halberd as a netural in vB.

 

[Veril]

thoughts... round 1

A neutral should be an even field for the majority of the cast (2/3 at least). I also think that starters should have no really distinguishing quirks. We should keep the number fairly low so the stage striking process is streamlined.

Starters:
-Final D
-BF
-Smashville
-PSII


Starter/Counterpick:
-Lylat: the tilting stage and lips give enough recoveries trouble to move this from starter to CP imo, but I realize most would disagree.
-Yoshi's Story: shy guys, magic platforms, a large central platform and somewhat unusual proportions.
-Warioware: almost neutral, but with those close blast lines...

Counterpick:
-Brinstar
-Delfino
-Castle Siege
-Halberd
-Orpheon
-PSI
-Japes: the klaptrap is not random, the water favors certain characters, as does the high ceiling, and the platforms allow for some crazy tricks. All of which is fine. This stage is amazing.
-Rainbow cruise
-Luigi's Mansion
-wifi room
-Corneria: ugh

Fixer-uppers:
-Distant Planet: if we fix the rain than this stage will have no real reason to be banned. Even now I think the rationale behind banning this stage is flimsy at best. Its definitely one of the most interesting strategically with the bottlecaps, bouncing platforms and lulzy but basically harmless hazards.
-Port Town Aero Dive: the cars mess up an otherwise amazing stage.
-Pirate Ship: nerf the cannon balls, decrease the duration of the "falling from the sky" period.
-PSI: windmill?
-Pictochat: remove the spikes


Lolno:
Norfair
Green Greens
New Pork City
Temple
Ice Fishin'
Flatzone
75m
Skyworld
Big Blue
Onett
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
etc

 

[GHNeko]

Distant Planet: Slow down the stage to 2/3s and keep the water running forever.

That single handedly eliminates all reasons for the stage to be banned.

 

[Almas]

Distant Planet: Slow down the stage to 2/3s and keep the water running forever.

That single handedly eliminates all reasons for the stage to be banned.

Those are two changes.

 

[Veril]

Those are two changes.

only the water change is needed

 

[CT Chia]

Does the water flowing effect any recoveries awkwardly now that there is no ledge snapping? I've never tried it. I personally did not like it in vBrawl because of the water flowing. It's an awkward stage but I think it could have a place in +. Only having the stage in water mode doesn't seem necessary.

I used to think neutrals should be like only the most evenish stages, but then realized we should be a little more leniant about it. Of course this isn't as much of an issue in bP than in vB. In vB, FD is one of the most popular CP stages and heavily favors some characters more than half of the cast on their respect CP stage. By this mindset, FD really shouldn't be neutral despite neutral it seems to be lol.

Because of this, I've realized that a lot of stages have the potential to be even for both characters in a matchup, even those you wouldn't think so. Halberd could be argued to not be neutral because of Snake and such, but it's no where near as bad as Diddy on FD. Something like a ROB v Pit might be very even on Halberd. Extra stages are fine and Stage Striking is there for that reason.

 

[GHNeko]

I do feel like that we're going go have a few more stages at to the roster and at time. I feel like one stage strike isnt enough to help CP an opponent. <_<

 

[The Cape]

We can expansion pack with more stages later on. Port Town with weaker cars, Pirate Ship with weaker bombs, Japes with slower water and a less stupid gator, fixed DP. Lots of stages can be fixed during our three month set hiatus that are good stages.

Also:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232537

Some discussion on the ruleset as is.

 

[goodoldganon]

I think we should keep the smallest stage list possible for tournaments and only use the best of the best stages. The striking system needs to stay intact. That being said, we should still try and 'fix' a few of the other stages that should and will be used in friendlies.

 

[GHNeko]

Striking could easily stay intact if we add more stages and use them all. <_<

We can release a stage list, but other regions dont have to follow it. They dont follow stage by stage in Brawl and Melee. They are varients.

I think that if we do add more stages, we simply allow one more stage to be striked, allowing you to strike 2 stages instead of one.

 

[Veril]

We can expansion pack with more stages later on. Port Town with weaker cars, Pirate Ship with weaker bombs, Japes with slower water and a less stupid gator, fixed DP. Lots of stages can be fixed during our three month set hiatus that are good stages.

I agree, for the most part. The gator and water are not nearly as big an issue as people think they are. You could say that I'm heavily biased as a Jiggs main, but you should also keep in mind that I know the stage extremely well. People just john so much cause they are unfamiliar with the stage hazards. The gator is completely predictable, and the water doesn't pose a huge problem for the majority of the cast. As for the characters it does wreck... well that's why its a CP. You aren't forced to use those characters...

That said, the gator would be ideal if its damage was reduced to 10 and the jumping variant was removed. The water should move at 2/3 speed, this would allow anyone to escape fairly reliably if they know what they're doing.

Pirate ships bombs and Port Town's cars should be much weaker.

These stages are unique and add a lot to the game, way more than additional neutrals would.



I've edited my first post here to include a "fixer-upper catagory"

 

[leafgreen386]

Striking could easily stay intact if we add more stages and use them all. <_<

We can release a stage list, but other regions dont have to follow it. They dont follow stage by stage in Brawl and Melee. They are varients.

I think that if we do add more stages, we simply allow one more stage to be striked, allowing you to strike 2 stages instead of one.

Stage striking is a horribly confusing term...

It's been used to either refer to the "stage strike first round select" system, where you and your opponent take turns killing a starter stage or as your "stage ban" that lasts for the set.

You're obviously referring to the "stage ban" definition.

Now, the problem is that some tournies already let you ban two stages. Or to be specific... two CPs or one neutral. If we add too many stages, that would have to be moved up to four CPs, two neutrals, or one neutral and two CPs. For both players. It gets to be kinda ridiculous.

 

[Veril]

Now, the problem is that some tournies already let you ban two stages. Or to be specific... two CPs or one neutral. If we add too many stages, that would have to be moved up to four CPs, two neutrals, or one neutral and two CPs. For both players. It gets to be kinda ridiculous.

Except there's no real reason that has to happen. 2 bans isn't enough?

Personally I don't see any need for more than 1 ban. That was an issue when the wifi room basically = final d. Now that the sandbag is present in the wifi room I don't think an additional ban is needed.

 

[CT Chia]

Can someone please post all of the stage changes in 5.0RC1? I think I know them all but I don't want to miss any. They aren't noted in the changelist for RC1.

 

[CT Chia]

bump - can someone plz post the stage changes for rc1? there isnt a full changelist for the game yet
im not fully aware of everything since it seems like a lot of things swapped around. i forget which stage WWR replaced. which stages have death boundries changed? what is luigis, just slowed down right?

so besides that though, i think we all need to determine - are permanent walk off stages ok in +?

 

[goodoldganon]

I to would also like to know exactly which stages have been changed.

 

[GHNeko]

Rumble Falls = Wifi.

MK1-1 is slower with larger bounderies.
luigi's mansion takes 90s to respawn.
Spear Pillar is Frozen.
WW is reversed.
PKMN 2 is reversed.

That's everything off the top of my head.

 

[Veril]

Spear Pillar is Frozen.

I never understood the point of doing that.

 

[CT Chia]

theres no boundary changes to luigis wifi and ww?

and the slow down on luigis is quite weird for when the house respawns

 

[GHNeko]

I never understood the point of doing that.

It was when we were trying to fix it but it didnt work out well and never bothered to remove the freeze. Which is weird as we removed the speed slow down on big blue to preserve lines. :V

theres no boundary changes to luigis wifi and ww?

and the slow down on luigis is quite weird for when the house respawns

Luigi's is dumb. I want deadlands with fixed borders back.

 

[CT Chia]

deadlands with fixed boundries is useless. so many ppl and characters can abuse FD as it is and were gonna make more of them? depending on the boundries of WWR i dont even know if i want that legal

 

[GHNeko]

Deadlands with fixed bounderies != FD imo simply because of the platforms and the space around them.

WWR should get fixed bounderies as well, but more so to properly cater to doubles so that legit matches aren't an extra 2-3 mins long simply because of its size so that it could be a neutral in doubles and a CP in singles, rather than a CP in dubz and Counter-Banned in Singles.

Big blue should be slowed down again, but more than it was before. Make it something manageable like Rainbow Cruise which had an internally non-static stage. Big Blue at a faster, but not to much faster pace of Rainbrow Cruise would be fabulous.

 

[JCaesar]

I think WWR just needs a lower ceiling.

 

[shanus]

We did a deadlands with fixed boundaries Neko. It basically was FD again, still with stupid ledges, and 2 super small platforms which dont matter since the level is 10 miles long. The only difference is the epic music.

 

[CT Chia]

should =/= already implemented

I'm really iffy on allowing WWR mostly cause of the boundaries. The fact that Luigi's is different now with the slow regenerating house, I think it might be ok pending a little testing on the death boundaries. From the slowness, does it take longer to destroy?

The mechanics of the stage just go around in a circle. If the boundaries are too big, that can be fixed by killing people higher up when the house is intact. if you land a vertical killing blow on the 2nd or 3rd story they would die much sooner. However, when the house is in tact the stage becomes a big circle camp fest which is why Spear Pillar can't be legal. To counter circle camping, you destroy the house, which then in turn makes the boundaries a problem again. I think the stage is going to end up banned imo.

Legal Stages I doubt anyone has a problem with:

-Battlefield
-FD
-Delfino
-Frigate
-Yoshi's (Brawl)
-Halberd
-Lylat
-PS2
-Castle
-Wario Ware
-Smashville
-Rainbow Cruise
-Brinstar
-PS1

Debatable:

-Pirate Ship
-Distant Planet
-Jungle Japes
-Corneria
-Green Greens

If walk offs are allowed:

-Yoshi's Island Melee

Debatable:

-Onett
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1


I suppose we also have to consider if permanent walls are all right to provide justification for Onett, Mushroomy, and Corneria.

For the debatable stages without walk offs, except for Corneria, all were generally banned in vBrawl for various reasons. Has Brawl+ changed enough to allow them? I don't really see how B+ has changed to the point where the stages are now considered legal. One of the only things stopping me personally from allowed Greens in vB was DDD's CG which was still a bit drastic considering the blocks being breakable, however now... But the random bombs are still a pain (if you slam into them when hit in the air). Before we start allowing borderline stages however have to consider...

That without all of these borderline, just the flat out acceptable ones with no debate there are still 14 stages. As it is 14 is a nice number of stages to have, if we do 7 starters and provide an equal number of CPs to choose from, it doesn't dillute the game with an absurd number of stages, bans are still worthwhile, no stage is too similar to another. I'm just irked that WW doesn't have slightly larger horizontal boundaries like I thought it had.

We could probably do something like

Starter:
-BF
-FD
-SV
-Lylat
-Yoshis (Brawl)
-PS2
-WW

CP:
-Delfino
-Halberd
-Frigate
-Castle
-Rainbow
-Brinstar
-PS1

Though I'm not gonna lie, if we deem them as legal, I would love to see Mushroomy 1-1 and yoshis melee as legal CPs.

 

[shanus]

The house does not die any slower.

I'll need to refresh myself on the boundary changes, but only 3-4 stages have been altered (fairly minimally excluding WW)

 

[CT Chia]

The house does not die any slower.

I'll need to refresh myself on the boundary changes, but only 3-4 stages have been altered (fairly minimally excluding WW)

blah, neko didnt note them. ok, thats good to know. thank god WW did end up keeping the altered boundaries lol. anyway, i mega updated my post

 

[shanus]

blah, neko didnt note them. ok, thats good to know. thank god WW did end up keeping the altered boundaries lol. anyway, i mega updated my post

Exact details:

	Individual Stage Changes:
		-Big Blue at 2/3 speed (credit goes to BB)
		-Green Greens running at 2/3 speed, Wider Death Boundaries
		-Luigi's Mansion is now at 1/5 speed (credit goes to BB)
		-Mushroomy Kingdom is at 1/2 speed (credit goes to BB)
		-PictoChat at 2/3 speed (credit goes to BB)
		-Pokemon Stadium 2 has been reversed (stage hazards/changes removed)
		-Spear Pillar has been frozen (no more legendary pokemon)
		-Warioware has been reversed (stage hazards/changes removed), Death Boundaries have been expanded
		-Wifi Waiting Room has a higher top Death Boundaries

 

[CT Chia]

WWR has higher boundaries?? *facepalm* I don't even understand that at all.

Changes like the speed to Pictochat are useless. Sudden killing transformations can still show up regardless of how fast the stage progresses. The only way to make Picto legal would be to remove a couple of the transformations if possible.

Same idea for Green Greens, even if the stage is slower it doesn't stop random bombs from falling. Bombs already placed in the stack isn't a big deal, it's when they are falling and you have no idea about them until after you slammed into them. Remove bomb blocks then the stage is legal, and is plenty different from others with the breakable blocks and apples.

As a side note, does anyone know if the "GO!" text on PS2 can be texture hacked? It's kind of awkward seeing the screen say GO! for the entire match, I'd rather it be removed. Obviously not a necessity.

I'll have to do some play testing on Big Blue, since I haven't played on it yet since the changes. It will likely fall into the same category as Mushroomy.

Another thing to keep in mind while allowing stages, is besides whether or not they are ban worthy, we have to ask ourselves - do they fit with the competitive nature of the game? Brawl+ is a fast paced exciting game and is slightly less focused on things like camping, etc. Some stages like Big Blue might end up promoting this so even if we deem it as tourney legal, it might be in the best interest of the game to keep it banned since it is that drastically different.

 

[shanus]

i think when we measured the death boundaries on WW it was odd in that characters could actually die off the top earlier than FD when you measure without DI. It was very weird.

 

[Revven]

Truthfully, I brought up the WWR bounds to shanus and he looked at them. I actually wanted them closer and the top boundary to remain as it was. But, shanus decided to just raise the top boundary and didn't think it was necessary to change the other bounds...

 

[shanus]

I'm not actually sure if that was the most updated patch notes. I for some reason think I removed it at a later date, that was a 2 minute pull from an old changelist.

 

[Revven]

Well, someone should look at it to make sure (be it the stage itself or the boundary code). I can't at the moment as I am at school.

 

[Yeroc]

It's still in there, I just checked. I think I might understand how the code works, so if there's room or need of additions I think I can hook those up.

 

[shanus]

i can always explain it, i have no attachments to the current values lmao

 

[Veril]

so, about that ruleset.

I think these points should be addressed:

•MK's IDC banned: this is pretty cut and dry imo. Do we need to re discuss this?

•Planking and ledge stalling in general: ew contentious issue ewww. My 2 cents: lets keep Norfair banned.

 

[shanus]

That reminds me to do my fix for ledge planking. How many grabs till we want people to not be able to grab anymore?

 

[JCaesar]

The current WWR definitely has a higher than default ceiling. Default was fine imo. It made the matches there not take ridiculously long and it's not the lowest ceiling in the game. So it favors vertical killers much more than horizontal killers, it's still fine as a CP.

 

[Revven]

That reminds me to do my fix for ledge planking. How many grabs till we want people to not be able to grab anymore?

IMO, 7 at least. So try that first and see how it goes.

Regarding stages, I don't think we should keep these legal below:

Norfair
Corneria (there are still afaik infinites against the wall. These include Fox's shine, possible shield locks, and Dtilts against the walls until 100%)
Onett (same reason as above)
Pirate Ship (until that water gets fixed and bombs don't do 50% and catapult doesn't 1HKO you)
Spear Pillar

That's all I can think of right now, for myself anyway, that are stages that are up for debate.

 

[CT Chia]

yea just because WWR wasnt as high as FD doesnt mean it should be higher. your making FD even more like FD lolol

I think in the RC2 of brawl+ a big focus needs to be on stages and tweaking a lot of things that are being mentioned here. however theres really nothing we can do at the moment since the RC1 is as stands.

I want to run some tests on WWR though I think my vote will probably be no.

Well, what stages does everyone think might be iffy?
WWR, Yoshi's Island Melee, anything else? I'll make a stage vote poll here in the WBR for it the same way the SBR votes for stages and we can make a rule list with
Starter
Start CP
CP
CP Banned
Banned

If I make that I might as well run a quick thread for all stages. I'll make some polls for 5 stages at a time and have them open for about 2 days each so we can get this done fast. There won't be tooo many stages to go through since so many stages are obvious ban. I'm also going to do obvious stages like Battlefield just for the sake of creating discussion about said stages and having poll results.