Official Metaknight Discussion

[Allied]

Nice hidden text. It's not the same. People want to ban it, but because the subject is quite vague, it's difficult. Surgical bans cannot adequately deal with it, or they would be implemented, which is why we require a global ban instead.

its already banned in most regions i assume

Inb4 Office SWR word before i get "taught" that its not on the official ruleset

Every TO is allowed to alter the ruleset because they are supposed to use it has a general guideline to the rules of the tournament

so really its up to your local TO's to see if its banned ;]

 

[iRJi]

well its a fairly easy tactic RJ why don't you just go MK and do it yourself in tournament even though everyone in NY/NJ doesn't do that and really the only one who has done it is M2K at pound4

You guys are about to convience me to go metaknight xD

Wow, No use of periods... lol.

This still does not prove my point being false, lol.

 

[UltiMario]

The Rising Pound gives Jigglypuff a huge advantage in matches, but in the long run, is used to just let the Jigglypuff beat higher-skilled players with little effort, and rather than effecting the match-up itself, it allows Jigglypuff to abuse the opponent.


Now lets replce the word "Jigglypuff" with "Meta Knight" and "Rising Pound" with "Planking and Scrooging"

 

[laki]

I don't think their problems because MK doesn't have a reason to use them anyway. MK doesn't have some sort of extreme problem where hes getting ***** in match-ups against other characters.

MKs that Plank and Scrooge to win are only doing so in an attempt to beat a player more skilled than them, IMO.

If you can plank or scrooge, doing so is often the safest, most powerful, and therefore best option.

 

[iRJi]

The Rising Pound gives Jigglypuff a huge advantage in matches, but in the long run, is used to just let the Jigglypuff beat higher-skilled players with little effort, and rather than effecting the match-up itself, it allows Jigglypuff to abuse the opponent.


Now lets replce the word "Jigglypuff" with "Meta Knight" and "Rising Pound" with "Planking and Scrooging"

I am missing your point. Sorry, not joking this time lol. Fill me in plox D=.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The Rising Pound gives Jigglypuff a huge advantage in matches, but in the long run, is used to just let the Jigglypuff beat higher-skilled players with little effort, and rather than effecting the match-up itself, it allows Jigglypuff to abuse the opponent.


Now lets replce the word "Jigglypuff" with "Meta Knight" and "Rising Pound" with "Planking and Scrooging"

I already explained why this comparison fails and I'm not planning on doing it again.

A better comparison would be replacing the word "Jigglypuff" with "Meta Knight" and "Rising Pound" with "IDC." Everyone has access to ledges.

 

[Raziek]

its already banned in most regions i assume

Inb4 Office SWR word before i get "taught" that its not on the official ruleset

Every TO is allowed to alter the ruleset because they are supposed to use it has a general guideline to the rules of the tournament

so really its up to your local TO's to see if its banned ;]

And we've already agreed that banning things locally just serves to further damage the scene, which is why the ban would have to be global.

People NEED to understand that Planking and scrooging cannot be controlled by traditional means because of the nature of the tactics themselves. They can only be moved by removing their source, the character. Otherwise, you have to implement so many tiny, subjective micro-bans to deal with it that it just serves to illustrate how big a problem the character is.

 

[Allied]

What about if MK grabs the ledge because Snake approaches and MK is at 170% and he just SDI'd out of an ftilt properly, then while MK was jumping below the ledge, Snake planted a claymore at ledgejumping distance, set a grenade at ledge get-up, dropped a grenade OVER the ledge so MK will be forced to keep grabbing the ledge, and started charging an fsmash at rolling distance? This is routine for some Snakes, so it is very practical and doable. Mk can be saved by a scrooge, but scrooging is banned! The rules just doomed him to die!

Are you happy with this?


Ah, you're slowly getting it! The bad thing is that these tactics DO work and they DO beat people more skilled than them who are obviously outplaying them, a la Ally vs M2K @ 5th round in Pound4... Is it really fair for Ally to have lost so much money?

And there was a 50-ledgegrab rule @ Pound4, yet people were STILL planking/other forms of pseudo-stalling here and there!

Why are you theorycrafting i can theroycraft too Well imagine M2k 3 stocked everyone and MK was invinceable

Its up to the TO to justify banning these things then but i agree with you

Wow, No use of periods... lol.

This still does not prove my point being false, lol.

Lol sorry didn't know you were grading my test bro.

And it was never to disprove your point, your making it sound SOOO easy why don't you do it stop avoiding the question i'm not attacking you i'm just asking a simple question lol

inb4 Proper grammar police on a video game forum

 

[Raziek]

I already explained why this comparison fails and I'm not planning on doing it again.

A better comparison would be replacing the word "Jigglypuff" with "Meta Knight" and "Rising Pound" with "IDC." Everyone has access to ledges.

this.
10this.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There's the other alternative; just acknowledging that planking or scrooging are part of the game and opting instead to not control them at all, at which point we decide that MK is fine.

 

[Allied]

And we've already agreed that banning things locally just serves to further damage the scene, which is why the ban would have to be global.

People NEED to understand that Planking and scrooging cannot be controlled by traditional means because of the nature of the tactics themselves. They can only be moved by removing their source, the character. Otherwise, you have to implement so many tiny, subjective micro-bans to deal with it that it just serves to illustrate how big a problem the character is.

Ok remove MK i'll main pit and i'll show you how scrooging is done

MK isn't the only one who can do it, its been proven lol xD hes just the best at it because simply thats why hes the best character in the game

besides i only posted in here because i thought overswarm is on and i haven't debated with him in a second! miss him! :D

 

[demonictoonlink]

So is he going to be banned?

 

[UltiMario]

What about if MK grabs the ledge because Snake approaches and MK is at 170% and he just SDI'd out of an ftilt properly, then while MK was jumping below the ledge, Snake planted a claymore at ledgejumping distance, set a grenade at ledge get-up, dropped a grenade OVER the ledge so MK will be forced to keep grabbing the ledge, and started charging an fsmash at rolling distance? This is routine for some Snakes, so it is very practical and doable. Mk can be saved by a scrooge, but scrooging is banned! The rules just doomed him to die!

Are you happy with this?

Yes, because scrooging prevents the snake from winning in a circumstance where the snake is definately going to win. It wouldn't be fair for MK to be able to escape this fate, but not most of the rest of the cast, would it?

I already explained why this comparison fails and I'm not planning on doing it again.

A better comparison would be replacing the word "Jigglypuff" with "Meta Knight" and "Rising Pound" with "IDC." Everyone has access to ledges.

But we've already stated that MK has the best planking and scrooging in the game, therefore, it WOULD be the right comparison, because you say that very few characters can approach this. There ARE characters that can approach a Jigglypuff under the Stage (Ness with PK Thunder), as well as Characters that can approach MK (Snake).

 

[Allied]

doubtful brah xD at least not on east coast maybe PA lol

 

[Kewkky]

well its a fairly easy tactic RJ why don't you just go MK and do it yourself in tournament even though everyone in NY/NJ doesn't do that and really the only one who has done it is M2K at pound4

You guys are about to convience me to go metaknight xD

There has been players before Pound4 that have planked their way to tourney winnings. Remember at the last MK Ban poll thread, where people complained about Plank vs DaPuffster? What about other famous stallers, like Dojo vs DEHF, or M2K vs Gnes? I remember SK92 got planked before, Ally has gotten timed out, Dojo has timed out people...

 

[Turbo Ether]

Allied, proper grammar just makes it easier to read your posts. It helps a lot in threads like this, where there is a ridiculous amount of reading to do.

 

[Raziek]

Ok remove MK i'll main pit and i'll show you how scrooging is done

MK isn't the only one who can do it, its been proven lol xD hes just the best at it because simply thats why hes the best character in the game

besides i only posted in here because i thought overswarm is on and i haven't debated with him in a second! miss him! :D

Pit cannot scrooge even remotely close to as wella s MK, SFP already addressed this quite adequately.

 

[iRJi]

Why are you theorycrafting i can theroycraft too Well imagine M2k 3 stocked everyone and MK was invinceable

Its up to the TO to justify banning these things then but i agree with you



Lol sorry didn't know you were grading my test bro.

And it was never to disprove your point, your making it sound SOOO easy why don't you do it stop avoiding the question i'm not attacking you i'm just asking a simple question lol

inb4 Proper grammar police on a video game forum

You are assuming I have not done it? I have.

I don't wanna grade things that look like fail either. Without periods, it becomes hard to understand a sentence. I really don't care about typos, but run on sentences just makes things more problematic then it needs to be. Nice joke about the test-thing-w/e though, I will be sure to use it in the future.

And if you are not proving me wrong, then stop quoting me. It being not that simple does not make it the the least safest option magically. It is still by far the safest one. Once you realize this, your question will be answered.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But we've already stated that MK has the best planking and scrooging in the game, therefore, it WOULD be the right comparison, because you say that very few characters can approach this. There ARE characters that can approach a Jigglypuff under the Stage (Ness with PK Thunder), as well as Characters that can approach MK (Snake).

No. MK is too good when allowed to exlpoit basic mechanics available to every character. Way to miss the point again.

Seriously reaching now...

 

[Raziek]

Yes, because scrooging prevents the snake from winning in a circumstance where the snake is definately going to win. It wouldn't be fair for MK to be able to escape this fate, but not most of the rest of the cast, would it?



But we've already stated that MK has the best planking and scrooging in the game, therefore, it WOULD be the right comparison, because you say that very few characters can approach this. There ARE characters that can approach a Jigglypuff under the Stage (Ness with PK Thunder), as well as Characters that can approach MK (Snake).

You're failing to understand the central point here. If you have to micromanage everything SO MUCH, to the point of ridiculousness, and a 10-page document describing how, where, and when it is appropriate to plank/scrooge, the character is enough of a problem that you just ban them outright.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Thing is, I don't think MK should be banned and all, but if he is going to I wish it would just happen already...

 

[RDK]

God, there is SO much garbage to wade through in the last 10 pages of this thread.

Unfortunately work and school comes before this though, so I missed the most recent pissing match between Omni and OS.

Overcentralization doesn't make a character the best character in the game.
Everyone playing Ryu in SF4 doesn't make him better than Sagat.
Overcentralization isn't enough to ban a character. If top 10 in a tournament was won completely by C Falcon players, C Falcon would overcentralize the game, but he's not broken.

You obviously do not know what overcentralization means.

Overcentralization has nothing to do with how many people play a certain character....

I'm sorry? My point here is "look at successful competitive games" and showing that they all share this. I'm not using other games to support my point here like you do with Street Fighter. I'm not saying "ban Metaknight because Starcraft". I'm saying any competitve game that is to be good needs to have no optimum strategy. When it does, it shrinks and dies. Other people have hit on a few examples of games that have had this occur recently, you can look back for those.

Sorry OS, but I'm calling bull**** on this.

Apparently anti-ban is not allowed to bring up other games (SF in specific; sometimes I make comparisons to GG and SC), but pro-ban is?

Besides the obvious foolishness from anti-ban, when have we ever used other competitive games in a comparison outside of showing that all competitive games should share the same basic traits?

That's exactly what you're doing here, and every time someone brings up Sirlinian banning principles, or some instance from the SRK community where something was banned, you denounce it and say that Smash is not Street Fighter.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Edit: also, one other thing I notice is that you bash the use of SF comparisons, and yet you use SRK banning Akuma as an example of other competitive fighting games not always following rigorous competitive rulesets. WTF?

 

[UltiMario]

Then why isn't there planking in EVERY match? There would obviously always be a character in a match that outpreforms the other on the edge, and would just do some damage, and plank the whole match.

If its available to all characters to abuse, then why don't all characters abuse it?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK won't be banned yet.

Here's what will happen, according to SFP's crystal ball:

1. LGL and maybe scrooging rules become pretty much the standard at all major tournaments.

2. These rules are scrubby as told by Sirlin and co. and affect other characters that aren't MK so the SBR ruleset specifically recommends that TOs stop using these.

3. Most TOs comply.

4. Scrooging/Planking become huge issues. Huge debate about whether or not these are a problem or a natural progression of the metagame ensues.

5. Most agree it is a problem, but seek a source.

6. Source is found and banned.

 

[iRJi]

Then why isn't there planking in EVERY match? There would obviously always be a character in a match that outpreforms the other on the edge, and would just do some damage, and plank the whole match.

If its available to all characters to abuse, then why don't all characters abuse it?

Thats because it's not...

Only a select few can plank properly, and all are stoppable by grabbing the edge unless it's Pit and MK. Pit can't plank anywhere near as good as MK. he has design flaws that just prevents him to do so lol. Which now leaves metaknight.

 

[Allied]

There has been players before Pound4 that have planked their way to tourney winnings. Remember at the last MK Ban poll thread, where people complained about Plank vs DaPuffster? What about other famous stallers, like Dojo vs DEHF, or M2K vs Gnes? I remember SK92 got planked before, Ally has gotten timed out, Dojo has timed out people...

I was talking about scrooging

Allied, proper grammar just makes it easier to read your posts. It helps a lot in threads like this, where there is a ridiculous amount of reading to do.

Its not really a big of a deal i don't look like wes typing >_> and i've gotten my point across typing like this lol

Pit cannot scrooge even remotely close to as wella s MK, SFP already addressed this quite adequately.

Read my post bro i already explained this but i'll time you out either way try catching my pit or anyone who can scrooge with pit


@ RJ

Ok man you wanna insult me, fine by me

 

[Raziek]

Then why isn't there planking in EVERY match? There would obviously always be a character in a match that outpreforms the other on the edge, and would just do some damage, and plank the whole match.

If its available to all characters to abuse, then why don't all characters abuse it?

It's not avaliable to all characters, number one. Number two, people don't stall for 8 minutes because they feel like it.

If you can destroy someone outright without planking, why would you bother? Flawed logic is all you've got here, it seems.

@ Allied

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

MY LINK CAN STALL OUT MY LITTLE SISTER, MUST BE BROKEN.

 

[RDK]

Explain why the following are banned:

Items in general

Food on low

Norfair

Wario Ware

Onett

To be fair I don't agree with the banning of about half of those.

Items and Wario Ware should be obvious to anyone with a brain, as they introduce random elements into play that are anti-competitive.

Think of it like a cage match. If a Mixed Martial Artist comes in and fights someone who is straight up Karate, recent results have shown that MMA is more competitively viable in this situation. However, if your karate entrant is Wolverine, that MMA guy is gonna get messed up and it doesn't matter how good his style is. This doesn't mean Karate is more competitively viable, it just means that it has the possibility for victory in the hands of someone amazing.

So, for the millionth time, why again are we lowering the competitive bar to accommodate players that are not at the top level?

 

[iRJi]

I was talking about scrooging



Its not really a big of a deal i don't look like wes typing >_> and i've gotten my point across typing like this lol



Read my post bro i already explained this but i'll time you out either way try catching my pit or anyone who can scrooge with pit


@ RJ

Ok man you wanna insult me, fine by me

o_O. I'm insulting you? Where?

 

[demonictoonlink]

MK won't be banned yet.

Here's what will happen, according to SFP's crystal ball:

1. LGL and maybe scrooging rules become pretty much the standard at all major tournaments.

2. These rules are scrubby as told by Sirlin and co. and affect other characters that aren't MK so the SBR ruleset specifically recommends that TOs stop using these.

3. Most TOs comply.

4. Scrooging/Planking become huge issues. Huge debate about whether or not these are a problem or a natural progression of the metagame ensues.

5. Most agree it is a problem, but seek a source.

6. Source is found and banned.

Seems accurate until step two IMO.
I read all the "You can't just limit something for one character because it shows that character is broken" posts, but I honestly believe SBR will make that rule only apply to MK before throwing it out.

 

[Kewkky]

Yes, because scrooging prevents the snake from winning in a circumstance where the snake is definately going to win. It wouldn't be fair for MK to be able to escape this fate, but not most of the rest of the cast, would it?

Yes it would be OK. Are you saying that it's the same as saying it's not OK for Yoshi to not be able to jump out of shield, so we should just ban OoS options to make it fair for him? It IS an option more than 1 character can do (much like Charizard, Pit, MK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, ROB, and who knows who else)... Or what about Swallowcides? Should we ban them because they're 0>deaths on all characters and unfair if the opponent is catched in them since the advantage gained IS very large... It can turn a high % stock advantage to a clean stock advantage if done properly, and end a match with the opponent at 0%! It can be done by few characters (Kirby, DDD, Wario maybe?... eh I give up), but works against the whole cast. Should it be banned to make things fair?

 

[UltiMario]

Scrooging is stalling, its as much of stalling as the Rising Pound will be. It also allows two characters, one of which being more common, to get out of problems the rest of the cast will face.

Scrooging WILL be banned one day, and not unbanned.

LGLs will probably also stay enforced because those are stalling as well, but those are more of something to be more closely examined as some characters are buffed and others nerfed from LGLs.

My crystal ball says that your crystal ball is half-wrong.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So, for the millionth time, why again are we lowering the competitive bar to accommodate players that are not at the top level?

The point OS is trying to make (and I don't think he's said it very well) is that MK isn't any less broken if the best MK in the world is a much, much worse player than the best Diddy.

However, I don't think MK is bannable for the same reasons OS does.

My crystal ball says that your crystal ball is half-wrong.

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming and don't understand that surgical rules are scrubby.

There's a reason the current ruleset only has a handful of surgical bans; they are easy to support, justify, and enforce.

 

[Kewkky]

Scrooging is stalling, its as much of stalling as the Rising Pound will be. It also allows two characters, one of which being more common, to get out of problems the rest of the cast will face.

Scrooging WILL be banned one day, and not unbanned.

LGLs will probably also stay enforced because those are stalling as well, but those are more of something to be more closely examined as some characters are buffed and others nerfed from LGLs.

My crystal ball says that your crystal ball is half-wrong.

It's not JUST staling, it's the exploitation of a recovery tactic to the point where it's given another use. I never had a problem with gliding under stages... Until it was mixed with planking to get around LGL rules!

Why take away such a good option for characters to recover and avoid deadly scenarios?

 

[Raziek]

Scrooging is stalling, its as much of stalling as the Rising Pound will be. It also allows two characters, one of which being more common, to get out of problems the rest of the cast will face.

Scrooging WILL be banned one day, and not unbanned.

LGLs will probably also stay enforced because those are stalling as well, but those are more of something to be more closely examined as some characters are buffed and others nerfed from LGLs.

My crystal ball says that your crystal ball is half-wrong.

So you agree Scrooging will be banned, but it's already been well established that scrooging is too subjective to ban surgically, ergo, we must ban Metaknight. Pit avoids a similar fate because he cannot scrooge effectively enough to shut out all other options.

 

[UltiMario]

If you can destroy someone outright without planking, why would you bother? Flawed logic is all you've got here, it seems.

This is the nail in your coffin.

I made a point similar to this earlier.

You don't NEED these techniques to win. If you limit and change things, all you're doing is making the match more fair, but not exactly any easier of a match-up.

They're not needed. They're just done. Why? In Brawl, you play gay or lose.

Yes it would be OK. Are you saying that it's the same as saying it's not OK for Yoshi to not be able to jump out of shield, so we should just ban OoS options to make it fair for him? It IS an option more than 1 character can do (much like Charizard, Pit, MK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, ROB, and who knows who else)... Or what about Swallowcides? Should we ban them because they're 0>deaths on all characters and unfair if the opponent is catched in them since the advantage gained IS very large... It can turn a high % stock advantage to a clean stock advantage if done properly, and end a match with the opponent at 0%! It can be done by few characters (Kirby, DDD, Wario maybe?... eh I give up), but works against the whole cast. Should it be banned to make things fair?

Because Yoshi was DESIGNED to not have OoS options. Swallowcides were DESIGNED to be able to happen, etc.

Snake wasn't designed to have some huge set-up of explosives, thats pure player skill.

Which is all the difference needed.

 

[RDK]

Scrooging is stalling, its as much of stalling as the Rising Pound will be. It also allows two characters, one of which being more common, to get out of problems the rest of the cast will face.

Scrooging WILL be banned one day, and not unbanned.

LGLs will probably also stay enforced because those are stalling as well, but those are more of something to be more closely examined as some characters are buffed and others nerfed from LGLs.

My crystal ball says that your crystal ball is half-wrong.

Umm, no. Scrooging is not stalling. Scrooging can be used to stall, but the individual act of scrooging is a combination of spacing and getting a better position on the stage.

The same goes for planking. It is not stalling; it can be abused though.

The point OS is trying to make (and I don't think he's said it very well) is that MK isn't any less broken if the best MK in the world is a much, much worse player than the best Diddy.

However, I don't think MK is bannable for the same reasons OS does.

I still don't get what the point is. How is M2K a much, much worse player than ADHD?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Although I hate SF examples, here's one that I think makes OS's argument make a lot more sense.

If I entered a SF2 tournament with Akuma I would get curbstomped by a good player of any character. ADHD didn't just beat the best Meta Knight or Meta Knights, he beat every single player while advancing through the ladder.

 

[UltiMario]

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming and don't understand that surgical rules are scrubby.

There's a reason the current ruleset only has a handful of surgical bans; they are easy to support, justify, and enforce.

You've been pointing out that Scrooging is a huge problem.

You've done the justify part all by yourself. The support and enforce is the trouble, which is stopped by scrubs themselves, not understanding that scrooging is no better than the IDC, or Rising Pound, or ANY OTHER banned stalling technique. Yes, it can be used for RECOVERING or other purposes like that, but you've all implied its only used as stalling this whole thread.

 

[Masmasher@]

Is there a video on scrooging i could see
Also banning a character is a LAST resort