Official Metaknight Discussion

[Kewkky]

so i've done some more research. that data makes sense. i'm officially pro-ban

What?

.... What?


what is this i don't even


I need another reply from Omni for this. I'm real iffy about this reply...

 

[•Col•]

Wait, really? Is Omni seriously pro-ban now? I will **** bricks if you are.

I would too.

I have a feeling he's messing with us or someone else just posted under his account, though. xD

Which means Inui officially co-signs this statement. Uh oh.

LOL

 

[MarKO X]

so i've done some more research. that data makes sense. i'm officially pro-ban

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0wykTdjuLU

 

[Raziek]

Japan's rule is you can't fly under the stage more than twice with mk or pit.

Can you elaborate? Twice in what time period? Whole match, 15 seconds, 30 seconds? I need to know to see if this rule is lolworthy.

 

[RDK]

I did not say that MK's win because of scrooging. Don't put words in my mouth. It is just another tactic in their arsenal of gay ways to play. Results would hardly change if scrooging was banned.

And you're once again bringing in the subject of over-centralization. Under anti-bans's criteria, he isn't. Under many pro-ban's, he is. Imagine that.

Scrooging would not be just as much of a problem if he kept just his recovery, because it's his recovery, in combination with his near invincibility while planking (as a result of his moveset), that creates the problem.

People still obviously don't know what overcentralization means.

It has nothing to do with how many people play that character.

Like I said, if you leave it to the TO's, you find yourself in a similar situation as leaving whether or not MK is banned, to the TO's. It's an issue that has to be all or nothing, because you can't go half and half on it. If some TO's ban it, and some don't, we're left with another divisory issue, hurting the health of the community.

Dude, when has an MK ban been anything other than a TO decision? Do you have this idea of the SBR as a communist state or something?

The main issue with the analysis concerning the tounament results is exactly as Adumbrodeus said, and the method by which we interpret tournament results is stupid.

OH look, MK didn't win, we shouldn't ban him even though he is sucking up 9 spots.
Is it really that? What else are the underlying reasons?
At that point, rather than saying "WOMG CANT BAN HIM NOW".
We should instead be taking an indepth look at what occurred.
What character was used, what stage, who was playing, the knowledge of those playing. etc etc.

It isn't that tournament results don't mean anything, its that they should not be used as stand alone evidence.
Basically, people need to stop taking the tournaments and using them as direct evidence.

Sure, they can be used and should be used, but shouldn't be considered the absolute evidence required.

We did look at all those things. Who won? ADHD. What characters were used? Diddy and MK. What stages were used? Etc. All those things are in the tournament data.

I don't understand your argument.

I'll come back and pick up the discussion tomorrow. It's Friday night and I'm about to go out and get hammered. You guys have fun arguing on an online forum about Mario game.

 

[MarKO X]

I'm not sure if the Japanese have a better or worse grasp on Smash than us a this point....

They pick random neutral stages out of a hat.

You be the judge.

 

[UltiMario]

They pick random neutral stages out of a hat.

You be the judge.

Can someone confirm this?

 

[Raziek]

They pick random neutral stages out of a hat.

You be the judge.

Really? OH BIG LOLZ.

 

[RDK]

so i've done some more research. that data makes sense. i'm officially pro-ban

lol it looks like os has been doing some account hacking

 

[UltiMario]

lol it looks like os has been doing some account hacking

No, he just hacked Omni's brain to make him think it was March 31st.

 

[swordgard]

Really? OH BIG LOLZ.

Actually they have a very good reason to do so.

 

[UltiMario]

Actually they have a very good reason to do so.

It would've been helpful if you stated said reason.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We did look at all those things. Who won? ADHD. What characters were used? Diddy and MK. What stages were used? Etc. All those things are in the tournament data.

I don't understand your argument.

Sorry let me clarify since things got garbled.
Simply put, tournament results are not the final thing to determine what character's are legal/illegal.

I'll come back and pick up the discussion tomorrow. It's Friday night and I'm about to go out and get hammered. You guys have fun arguing on an online forum about Mario game.

Getting drunk is dumb.
Gettng LAID is best

 

[Kewkky]

Actually they have a very good reason to do so.

I'd like some insight on that as well. Why use the hat instead of the game's "random" button?

Is this for real?

 

[UltiMario]

Wait, isn't the random button biased or something and doesn't pick stages again until every other stage on random has been picked?

I guess that would explain it if thats right....

 

[MarKO X]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257672

use your find function to find random.

also, you get to see the actual rule about scrooging.

 

[adumbrodeus]

We did look at all those things. Who won? ADHD. What characters were used? Diddy and MK. What stages were used? Etc. All those things are in the tournament data.

I don't understand your argument.

I'll come back and pick up the discussion tomorrow. It's Friday night and I'm about to go out and get hammered. You guys have fun arguing on an online forum about Mario game.

The point is that we analyze the data badly and we really really haven't accounted for population at all, so it tells current centralization.



Never fear, me and a friend are working on modeling expected results in order to see how far off the data is to correct for it, unless that proves impossible in which case, tracking small samples FTW!



Also, I feel you, signing off soon, gonna get my drink on. You should come to NY so we can figure out we can drink who under the table. We should get SL too, have the PtW crowd playing to win, lol.

 

[iRJi]

so i've done some more research. that data makes sense. i'm officially pro-ban

.....? U r kidding rite?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Also, I feel you, signing off soon, gonna get my drink on. You should come to NY so we can figure out we can drink who under the table. We should get SL too, have the PtW crowd playing to win, lol.

I've got nothing better to do.
Who knows, we'll see who drinks who under the table AND can play melee.

 

[Raziek]

Ok, so looking at the Japan topic, I'm left with two questions.

1) Why aren't they striking instead of random? I can understand why they choose to do actual random instead of in-game, but why no strike?

2) Their scrooging rule doesn't seem to completely cover all bases. What's stopping a MetaKnight from flying under, coming up, tornadoing onto the stage away from their opponent, then heading back to camp the ledge?

Seems inadequate to me.

Edit: Also, big lolz at these:

- you arent allowed to change your controls (i got screwed over here). the reason for this (i was told) is that it takes too much time. but given that you cant even do it in the grand final, i do not think this is the case.

- in order to discourage timing out, not only is the timer 10 minutes, but also, in the match ends in a time up, you play sudden death (lol). although this did result in the best finish to a match ive ever seen.

 

[swordgard]

Ok, so looking at the Japan topic, I'm left with two questions.

1) Why aren't they striking instead of random? I can understand why they choose to do actual random instead of in-game, but why no strike?

2) Their scrooging rule doesn't seem to completely cover all bases. What's stopping a MetaKnight from flying under, coming up, tornadoing onto the stage away from their opponent, then heading back to camp the ledge?

Seems inadequate to me.

Edit: Also, big lolz at these:

- you arent allowed to change your controls (i got screwed over here). the reason for this (i was told) is that it takes too much time. but given that you cant even do it in the grand final, i do not think this is the case.

- in order to discourage timing out, not only is the timer 10 minutes, but also, in the match ends in a time up, you play sudden death (lol). although this did result in the best finish to a match ive ever seen.

Because nado is punishable.

 

[Raziek]

Because nado is punishable.

I'll give you this, but it still doesn't seem adequate enough. All the Mk has to do then is just grab another hit or two, then resume planking. I didn't see it, but do they implement ledgegrab rules?

 

[Chuee]

The point is to get the mk onstage where you actually have a chance of hitting him.

 

[Kewkky]

The point is to get the mk onstage where you actually have a chance of hitting him.

I agree that the rule works for what it was created for... But I bet I can find ways around that rule as MK, where I touch the ground and get to a ledge before my opponent reaches me, leaving me planking and with my scrooging for whenever I want it.

 

[MarKO X]

they do strike, after those initial pools, when brackets A and B are made.

and honestly, that scroog rule definitely sounds inadequate. sure it has the MK come on the stage, but it's not like MK can't land, and take off again.

 

[Raziek]

they do strike, after those initial pools, when brackets A and B are made.

I'm still uncertain about why players aren't allowed to change their configs though, even at grand finals. That's a pretty big part of being able to do ATs and play comfortably.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm still uncertain about why players aren't allowed to change their configs though, even at grand finals. That's a pretty big part of being able to do ATs and play comfortably.

AKA optimum efficiency.

Well, the whole community decided on the rules to be like that, not a single team of top players like we have here in America. It'd be harder to find a straight-up reason to explain why they added the rule.

 

[Raziek]

So, was Omni serious, or are we still all really confused?

 

[iRJi]

So, was Omni serious, or are we still all really confused?

confused. lol

 

[UltiMario]

Omni has serious mindgames.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It seems omni has gone to the dark side...

I've got nothing better to do.
Who knows, we'll see who drinks who under the table AND can play melee.

Nice, and we all prefer melee, so IT'S GOOD!



Come on RDK, come through, you know you wanna watch me drink you and SL under the table.



Ok, gone now, enjoy your serious business.

 

[Overswarm]

The point OS is trying to make (and I don't think he's said it very well) is that MK isn't any less broken if the best MK in the world is a much, much worse player than the best Diddy.

However, I don't think MK is bannable for the same reasons OS does.

I've missed like half a dozen pages in this thread and won't be able to hit them up until the week starts again (so I'm gonna miss a lot), but I'd just like to say that my example was to show how outliers can exist in a competitive setting. The "best" can exist and still lose, but that doesn't mean they aren't the best; individuals can overcome their style just as players can overcome their character. This, however, is not the norm.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If anyone took Omni seriously they MUST be drunk.

 

[UltiMario]

IMO, it just sounds like me you're saying

"All the arguements Anti-Bans can put out are wrong because their evidence are actually things that SHOULDN'T be happening"

Such as ADHD winning pound 4, and all those times Ally beat M2K.

Am I right here?

 

[Allied]

metaknight is mad cute yo

 

[Overswarm]

Getting drunk is dumb.
Gettng LAID is best

I concur with ShadowLink84, but not with caps because that just seems a bit too eager, and kind of sad on valentine's day weekend.

IMO, it just sounds like me you're saying

"All the arguements Anti-Bans can put out are wrong because their evidence are actually things that SHOULDN'T be happening"

Such as ADHD winning pound 4, and all those times Ally beat M2K.

Am I right here?

This is a trap, but not a good trap; if you're wanting to convince someone to say "Yeah, those things shouldn't be happening!" you'd need to follow it up with more than an analysis on a small, local level (such as their fights vs. M2K, or just how ADHD or Ally does against MK in general, etc., etc.); the only way to counteract the statement and say they SHOULD be happening would be to show a trend that shows a change towards that direction.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

It DOES give everyone the same tools, are you stupid? Does the character select screen change specifically just for you? Brawl isn't competitive as a fighter if you pick MK, because the only way the opponent can play a matchup that doesn't give MK an advantage (and thus making skill matter less) is to pick MK him/herself.

Who gives a **** about the character select screen? I'm talking about an actual match.

You aren't getting it, which just shows me how stubborn you are. There's really no point in debating with you if you won't even acknowledge other people's points. AGAIN: You said that in order for a match INVOLVING MK to be completely based on skill, the other player must pick MK. This is obviously true, as MK obviously has the same tools as himself. This is true for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER IN BRAWL. I don't see how MK is any different. If you want a truly skill-based match, then a ditto is obviously the best option for that.

That's exactly what I interpreted from your post, and IT IS STUPID. The match begins on the character select screen. Each player picks the character they do best with, if you picked an underperforming character it's ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT. IT'S LIKE CHOOSING NOT TO USE A MOVE. There is no choice involved with MK.

No one's debating who's fault it is when someone picks a bad character. It's no one's "fault." They choose the character they like.

Also, the match begins when the announcer says "GO!" Pretty obvious.

There clearly is a choice, or EVERYONE WOULD PICK MK. That doesn't happen, and it never will.

Maybe if you read his interview you would know he wants to be the best Snake player. Fortunately for him Snake only has a mild disadvantage against MK, small enough for him to regularly overcome it with skill alone.

I think that's funny, since I was the one who interviewed him. And after re-reading the interview twice, I do not see where he said that. Show me, please.

 

[UltiMario]

Oh, OS, I just remembered something.

I asked this waaaaaaaay back, but wanted to see a response from you.


If MK is going to be banned from dominance, how can you determine what "too dominant" is? Normally this is opinion from person to person, but would there be any way to prove that X dominance is where to draw the line?

 

[iRJi]

I've missed like half a dozen pages in this thread and won't be able to hit them up until the week starts again (so I'm gonna miss a lot), but I'd just like to say that my example was to show how outliers can exist in a competitive setting. The "best" can exist and still lose, but that doesn't mean they aren't the best; individuals can overcome their style just as players can overcome their character. This, however, is not the norm.

You didn't miss anything. Trust me xD.

 

[MarKO X]

can we get, like, a percentage, on the completeness of your "see? MK is broken." video?