Official Metaknight Discussion

[Chuee]

metaknight is mad cute yo

QFT

 

[Kewkky]

This is a trap, but not a good trap; if you're wanting to convince someone to say "Yeah, those things shouldn't be happening!" you'd need to follow it up with more than an analysis on a small, local level (such as their fights vs. M2K, or just how ADHD or Ally does against MK in general, etc., etc.); the only way to counteract the statement and say they SHOULD be happening would be to show a trend that shows a change towards that direction.

In other words... For anti-ban to prove that ADHD and Ally aren't outliers, they need to show other Diddies and Snakes who can win against all other top MKs on a regular basis? Or at least as much as the MU ratio tells us they should be winning? I agree with the message if it's what I'm understanding. If not, elaborate a bit more if you can.

And you lost nothing, practically. Lots of discussion about scrooging and why no one has banned it yet outright, and explaining the "why's" of the rules.

 

[iRJi]

Originally Posted by Omni View Post
so i've done some more research. that data makes sense. i'm officially pro-ban

OS: THink he was trollin?

 

[Allied]

They See Me Trollinnn

They Hatteeeinnnnn

 

[iRJi]

They See Me Trollinnn

They Hatteeeinnnnn

LOL. Word.

 

[Overswarm]

In other words... For anti-ban to prove that ADHD and Ally aren't outliers, they need to show other Diddies and Snakes who can win against all other top MKs on a regular basis? Or at least as much as the MU ratio tells us they should be winning? I agree with the message if it's what I'm understanding. If not, elaborate a bit more if you can.

In a nutshell, yes. It isn't quite that simple though; they don't necessarily have to have people mimicking ADHD and Ally, but need to find trends from Snake and Diddy as a whole that they are as tournament viable as MK and that they do as well against MK as people would need them to if they were considered an "even" or "counter" matchup. It'd take a lot of effort though, and even with all the data necessary it would be incomplete data and the best you'd get is "I think this trend is going up", so I don't blame someone for not doing it.

And you lost nothing, practically. Lots of discussion about scrooging and why no one has banned it yet outright, and explaining the "why's" of the rules.

Scrooging has yet to be seen to be a issue in tournaments in any way. For Metaknight to be "scrooging" effectively, he has to be on Smashville. If MK has to grab the ledge, he's in trouble; whenever you put an obvious destination point in your trajectory you can be stopped. Some stages, like FD, make it near impossible for many characters to reach the edge. Others, such as Battlefield, allow you to walk there before he gets back.

People's real issue with scrooging is that it does what they WANT to do with their characters, but cannot. This is a legitimate concern... but not that the technique should be banned. We cannot justify a surgical change across the board as Pit and Charizard cannot do this effectively at all, and making a rule just for Metaknight is admitting that he acts outside of the game's normal boundries.

A minor concern for some is MK running out the timer; for some this is unacceptable, but in reality it should never be frowned upon. MK can time people out. If you can do it, DO it.

As angry as some may be hearing that... no one has won with scrooging yet. In fact, it has only shown up twice in tournament at high level play; both involved mew2king, one vs. gnes diddy and the other meep's ICs. Both characters are horrible off stage, making this very safe, yet Gnes' diddy actually gained the lead while M2K attempted to stall for time because scrooging actually makes you vulnerable. Meep's ICs were a lost cause because, well, ICs aren't that great of a character against one that can outmanuever them in that fashion. It's no different than ICs being able to chain grab Wolf by shielding whatever he does and then destroying him off of one mistake. Just the name of the game.

If MK is going to be banned from dominance, how can you determine what "too dominant" is? Normally this is opinion from person to person, but would there be any way to prove that X dominance is where to draw the line?

Are you asking me what my variable would be if MK was being banned for dominance reasons and I wanted him banned for dominance reasons?

Question for you:

If MK is going to be banned from how lame he was, how can you determine what "too lame" is? Normally this is opinion from person to person, but would there be any way to prove that X lame is where to draw the line?

 

[Justblaze647]

If MK is going to be banned from how lame he was, how can you determine what "too lame" is? Normally this is opinion from person to person, but would there be any way to prove that X lame is where to draw the line?

Classic strawmanning lol

 

[Overswarm]

Classic strawmanning lol

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. I was using my statement as hyperbole to put him in the same position I was; his question was merely a loaded question, and neither of them were strawmen.

 

[UltiMario]

I was hoping to get an actual answer since you're like, Overswarm, and thought you'd be on top of things more than anyone else. You don't need some absolute definate answer, but something at least general would be better than nothing.

 

[Overswarm]

can we get, like, a percentage, on the completeness of your "see? MK is broken." video?

Fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vruQ9WH4sjk


There's a preview, it doesn't show much at all. It's from the day I first discovered it and was messing around with it. Have fun speculating.

You aren't getting it, which just shows me how stubborn you are. There's really no point in debating with you if you won't even acknowledge other people's points. AGAIN: You said that in order for a match INVOLVING MK to be completely based on skill, the other player must pick MK. This is obviously true, as MK obviously has the same tools as himself. This is true for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER IN BRAWL. I don't see how MK is any different. If you want a truly skill-based match, then a ditto is obviously the best option for that.

I think what me means is that picking MK stops any sort of open-ended approach from the opponent. Your options are literally "pick MK" or "pick a disadvantaged matchup". This is not the case with others. I could be mistaken though.

 

[Overswarm]

I was hoping to get an actual answer since you're like, Overswarm, and thought you'd be on top of things more than anyone else. You don't need some absolute definate answer, but something at least general would be better than nothing.

I don't think you understood my response. If you can answer my question, I can answer yours.


(and to your response to my previous statement, yes, that's the point)

 

[kackamee]

I don't think you understood my response. If you can answer my question, I can answer yours.


(and to your response to my previous statement, yes, that's the point)

O.o Hey Overswarm. Recruiting more Pro bans I see.

 

[Zankoku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vruQ9WH4sjk

I don't think I saw anything out of the ordinary in that entire thing. Were you trying to point out the very end?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I think what me means is that picking MK stops any sort of open-ended approach from the opponent. Your options are literally "pick MK" or "pick a disadvantaged matchup". This is not the case with others. I could be mistaken though.

Well that makes a bit more sense.

Fair enough.

 

[Kewkky]

I don't think I saw anything out of the ordinary in that entire thing. Were you trying to point out the very end?

Notice how sometimes MK is running farther than dashdance allows him to turn around laglessly, but he still is able to come to a complete stop without putting up the shield or anything? I'm pretty sure that's the AT he's talking about.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't think I saw anything out of the ordinary in that entire thing. Were you trying to point out the very end?

I'm able to put a stop to my initial dash animation with no lag or animation; my character simply pops into neutral. It's basically shield dropping without the shield.

The video itself is unimpressive, and I chose it for that reason. I want to explore the AT before uploading all I've found (makes sense to have one big video, not a bunch of tiny ones). This was recorded the day I found out about it, so I was pretty sloppy at it.

 

[UltiMario]

Mkay

If MK is going to be banned from how lame he was, how can you determine what "too lame" is? Normally this is opinion from person to person, but would there be any way to prove that X lame is where to draw the line?

You would draw the line at the point where MK is so lame that it makes the game unplayable for the user. The point where the line would be crossed is the point that an MK main would be miserable and commit suicide from the sheer displeasure from maining MK, as playing such a lame character needs to prove that he has drained the very will to live with his lameness.


Can I get an explanation now?

 

[Zankoku]

Brawl only allows you to dashdance the same distance as the maximum you can move for a stutter step. It's not exactly anything new to circumvent its distance with a foxtrot instead.

In fact, doing so isn't even limited to one method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg61XaQvqMo

 

[Kewkky]

Brawl only allows you to dashdance the same distance as the maximum you can move for a stutter step. It's not exactly anything new to circumvent its distance with a foxtrot instead.

In fact, doing so isn't even limited to one method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg61XaQvqMo

Finally, I've been looking for these videos for a while! Of course, I never entered the Marth boards or the older threads because I was using laziness as my excuse, but here they are! Ohoho, laziness has won yet again.

 

[Overswarm]

Brawl only allows you to dashdance the same distance as the maximum you can move for a stutter step. It's not exactly anything new to circumvent its distance with a foxtrot instead.

In fact, doing so isn't even limited to one method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg61XaQvqMo

Just wait. The full implementation hasn't been shown yet. ^_^


How did the snake do the nade thing? I haven't seen that.

 

[MarKO X]

hmmmm... looks interesting. and dangerous. although i'm sure there are other characters that can benefit from this.

 

[Justblaze647]

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. I was using my statement as hyperbole to put him in the same position I was; his question was merely a loaded question, and neither of them were strawmen.

Call me stupid, but I can't see too big a difference between a misrepresentation and an exaggeration. The two seem to be rather similar.

 

[•Col•]

hmmmm... looks interesting. and dangerous. although i'm sure there are other characters that can benefit from this.

Well duh, it's usable by every character.... So of course every character will BENEFIT from it... Just... Some will benefit more than others.... <.<

 

[MarKO X]

Well duh, it's usable by every character.... So of course every character will BENEFIT from it... Just... Some will benefit more than others.... <.<

that's the point.
this might be the AT that makes MK containable.

inb4he'salreadycontainable.

 

[Overswarm]

Call me stupid, but I can't see too big a difference between a misrepresentation and an exaggeration. The two seem to be rather similar.

That's true. A strawman is generally not just an exaggeration though. With a strawman you should (for the most part, I guess) be able to say "that's not what I'm saying at all" but with an exaggeration you should be able to say "you're blowing things out of proportion"

that's the point.
this might be the AT that makes MK containable.

inb4he'salreadycontainable.
__________________

First thing I checked. I got excited.

It doesn't.

Your initial dash animation determines how good this is for you.... and it's not that great vs. MK since his initial dash is huuuuuuuuuuge.

Just wait til you see his dash dance o_o

 

[BSP]

God, 10 pages of new stuff when I get back. I'll just jump back in on the discussion when I find something to comment on.

Is Omni really pro-ban now?

 

[•Col•]

God, 10 pages of new stuff when I get back. I'll just jump back in on the discussion when I find something to comment on.

Is Omni really pro-ban now?

It's very likely that he is just trolling us. If he actually did switch sides now, I'd be very very VERY surprised.

 

[Zankoku]

Just wait til you see his dash dance o_o

Dash-dance?!?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioUt7qjfh6Y

 

[BSP]

I saw a lot of mention of scrooging in the last few pages. Right now, it's not a major problem, but it can be used as a powerful way to stall out the timer (m2k vs. ally). Coupling that with the enormous amount of ambiguity in the stalling rules, and MK has just found a way to stall out pretty much anyone. Like I said, it could become a problem. And if we ban scrooging, I'm sure MKs will find a way around that and continue to stall.

 

[Justblaze647]

Could someone explain to me EXACTLY what scrooging consists of? I'm a bit unclear on the term.

 

[HeroMystic]

Could someone explain to me EXACTLY what scrooging consists of? I'm a bit unclear on the term.

Flying under the stage to bypass the Ledgegrab Limit.

 

[BSP]

Flying under the stage to bypass the Ledgegrab Limit.

I've only seen it done efficiently on Smashville (which might cause debate over its nuetrality, but that's a different story) and of course with MK the most since he has superior jumps.

 

[Justblaze647]

Flying under the stage to bypass the Ledgegrab Limit.

Wow. That's really effin gay.

@ Mariobrouser: Is your avatar from super mario bros z? Because, if so, then you sir are a winner.

 

[HeroMystic]

Same. It's most efficient on Smashville and Battlefield. Final Destination is way too large and just about any other stage is too risky (tilting stage) or doesn't allow it (Yoshi's Island).

It just reflects on how terrible the stage list is right now.

 

[BSP]

Yes, my avatar is from SMBZ, it's an awesome show.

And yes, the stage list and our definition of stalling could use some looking into.

 

[Justblaze647]

That's so terrible though. Smashville is my favorite stage. It's like melee FD, but better.

Leave it to MK to gay it up.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's so terrible though. Smashville is my favorite stage. It's like melee FD, but better.

Leave it to MK to gay it up.

I actually like it when they glide under the stage.
<_<

 

[Justblaze647]

Yeah. You would.

o_O

 

[Eddie G]

I actually feel a little down after watching some of the Melee vids of the old days (2006-2007 MLG commentary matches) and a couple of the montages for the legends of yesterday (Ken, Azen, M2K in his prime, etc.), then coming in here to remind myself of just what Smash has boiled down to: bickering about a problem that Sakurai himself intended to troll us all with from the beginning in March of 2008. I miss the good ol' having pride and talking smack days, with a balanced roster among the top characters and a player's smarts/tech skill most often determining the winner. It was a great time.

Melee is still very much alive, but I don't get the same vibe from it or the community in general anymore. T.T

/I apologize for the random bit of reminiscence everyone, it just hit me like a ton of bricks while I was reading through here.

 

[Justblaze647]

bickering about a problem that Sakurai himself intended to troll us all with from the beginning

You mean tripping?

And wasn't you're name King Beef like 10 seconds ago? wtf