Official Metaknight Discussion

[Overswarm]

I beat my wife when she acts up.
I kill my neighbor when he comes to my house with a gun.



Your turn. Unless you wanna play...

I want to ban Metaknight when he's overly dominant and will ban him when he's broken

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Probably not but regardless the question came with a response for each of the answers. If that isn't loaded I don't know what is.

So, if he had only posed the question, but left out the pre-responses, then it wouldn't have been "loaded"?


The responses would have been the same, due to the flawed and conflicting nature of OS's argument on this subject.


If anything, I believe that OS's argument here is what is "loaded", because it routinely makes claims based on statements that are not supported. When this lack of support is made evident, the claims are continued despite being dis-proven.



Don't get me wrong, loaded questions are ridiculous... but I don't think that is the issue here. OS's example of "beating your wife or killing your neighbor" is a perfect loaded question... but I don't see how it parallels what Omni asked.

I want to ban Metaknight when he's overly dominant and will ban him when he's broken

NOBODY MAKES ME BLEED MY OWN BLOOD! lol

 

[CRASHiC]

well then finish your video so you can make him broken. Go out of the thread and give us that fix all for our brawl problems OS, I WANT MY APPROACHES ****IT.

 

[Zankoku]

Probably not but regardless the question came with a response for each of the answers. If that isn't loaded I don't know what is.

Would it have been less loaded if Omni only asked the question, wrote his answers to some TXT file, and copy-pasted the appropriate response afterward?

I don't get it, here. Pretty sure a loaded question limits your possible responses to a set of which neither is correct (that is, neither would be your actual reply), but from what I can tell Omni was just asking among the two most likely reasons for wanting MK banned and giving his views on them.

Of course, Overswarm could very easily answer "I don't want him banned for either of those reasons" if neither of them were why he wanted MK banned.

 

[Omni]

It was a loaded question because Omni limited him to two replies and already addressed each one...

The first point isn't a question.

The second point isn't a hard question to answer. One or the other, both, or neither and why.

Stop making excuses and making things more difficult than they need to be.

I count four.
1.) One..
2.) The other...
3.) Both...
4.) Neither...

I'm not limiting him nor loading the question. OS is just being a cheerleader again by comparing the killing of a neighbor with is a character broken.

But as has been said this is a philosophy question. As much as people seem to try to deny this Smash Brothers is a game. If the game becomes unfun then people stop playing. Perhaps these people are just scrubs but regardless of whether they are scrubs or if they play to win their money and presence is needed at tournaments.

So ultimately I think this matter comes down to what is fun (or if you want to use a less loaded word enjoyability) and that isn't something that can be easily defined and is not something we have tried to address yet.

Yes, philosophical or subjective in term. I've been stressing this point constantly.

I'm not so sure about it coming down to what is fun. Maybe for you and that's fine, but not everyone plays this game for fun. Some people play for money. Some people play for pride. Some people play just to win. I agree that the game should be fun, but I don't think it comes down to just... fun.

 

[Overswarm]

well then finish your video so you can make him broken. Go out of the thread and give us that fix all for our brawl problems OS, I WANT MY APPROACHES ****IT.

I've recorded Metaknight doing running d-smashes from about half the length of FD, running behind someone and pivoting an f-smash, insta dash attacking, and other stuff. I need more characters and tilts are hard to do. I'm not used to the motion so it'll take some time. Seagull was able to get running tilts better than I was XD

On the negative side, not only is MK's more useful than previously thought, it's also easier. I just had the timing incredibly wrong -_-;;

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well duh, of course popularity has an influence. But it's nowhere near what people think it is.

Which is why you make statisticians cry, no amount of "it's negligable" EVER makes up for not accounting for popularity in your statistics. Period. Either directly account for it, or your conclusions are bunk unless your conclusions are a meta-conclusion based on post popularity and raw amounts.

You're forgetting that in the data, only the top 8 players in each tournament are counted. The rest, no matter how many there are, are discarded.

And that helps why?

You completely misunderstood the point I was trying to make. Read this.

No, you're just wrong.


Well duh, of course popularity has an influence. But it's nowhere near what people think it is. You're forgetting that in the data, only the top 8 players in each tournament are counted. The rest, no matter how many there are, are discarded.

You completely misunderstood the point I was trying to make. Read this.

Differences in population, while it would be helpful to know, turns out to be misleading because of two reasons. One is the fact that the subset of players that choose to play metaknight is difficult to measure. How many are there?

That's exactly why not accounting for it is bunk, "difficult to measure" =/= "does not matter".

Is the average MK player an accurate sample of the SSBB community at large? I do not think that it is. There is an unknown variable that determines whether a player switches to MK or not and we currently have no clue and no way to measure whether or not this variable has an affect on player skill.

No, it's not an accurate measure, but that's irrelevant.

Second, and more importantly, is that OS uses data where all but the top 8 placings in 100+ tournaments are thrown out. At this point, differences in popularity become less important. Let's say you add 20 (skilled) Link mains and 20 (skilled) mario mains to the Pound 4 tournament. Would the top 8 results have changed at all? I very much doubt it.
Add 20 Pit mains? It may change the results very slightly. Perhaps a highly lucky! (and highly skilled, of course, but skill is a variable which should be held constant for these arguments) player breaks top 8.
Add 20 MK mains? This one should be obvious (taking skill out of the equation)

The result is that while popularity DOES have an influence upon character placements, the importance is dampened by the fact that the character is better, plain and simple, and that only a constant sampling from each tournament (8) is drawn from these large samples with varying popularity for each character.

I already addressed this, add 20 more skilled link mains and that WILL push up the average link results, considerably. The lower the number of players, the more this will occur.


Furthermore, you're neglecting the real issue, in every group of mains, there's a certain percentage that obtains true skill on average. The more players a character has, the greater the raw number of those players.


If one out of every 200,000 players is good, and Diddy has 200,000 mains, and MK has 1,000,000, then wouldn't you expect that MK has more good players then Diddy?



That's just how it occurs, the more players a particular character has, the larger the raw number of good players that character has, plain and simple.


Raw number of good players are what take tournaments, not proportions, to have a valid result, you need proportions, otherwise you cannot track character power.

I think that's perfectly fine, though. Let's argue ban philosophy. Personally, I've said how I feel about the ban before. I think that because MK requries micromanaging to fit in with our vision of how the game ought to be played, he should be banned, or instead, we should stop trying to microban him and let him reign.

No LGL, no scrooging or planking rules, no IDC ban, nothing. Let him reign or ban him.

Except that when people are talking from their personal philosophy using terms defined by their personal philosophy instead of actually getting down to roots and discussing which philosophy is better for the metagame and debating that, then you get nowhere.


People try to prove each other wrong with "evidence" that is meaningless to their opponent's personal philosophy.


Regardless, I will agree with you, to a point, infinite stalls are overcentralizing by their nature, this has been proven again and again. If we say, "allow him all or ban him all for say, IDC", then we should say the same thing about sonic...


If a tech that is overcentralizing by it's nature can be discretely and enforcably banned then it should be.


You're correct about planking.

Actually most communities deal with character bans on a case-by-case basis and there isn't really a "set criteria." In most cases, it's something like:

"He's too good" or something similar
and after a lot of arguing
"K we'll ban it."

Which is stupid. From my experience SF functionally lifts their ban criteria straight from PtW.

What if I told you Sirlin himself advocates an MK ban?

A. Prove it.

B. What's his reasoning?


I'd be fine with debating him on it, but his opinion doesn't really matter per say.

 

[solecalibur]

Did anyone address Crashic's post about v-13?
I mean Blazblue is not brawl in anyway but
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0KgQbxKefs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw5oyJYRIqI
It seems all to similar


On a side note : Im not saying all meta mains plank/scourge but the fact that its possible (as we have seen ) should be dealt with as well

 

[Omni]

Hm. Completely ignored.

New strategy: If you can't answer the question, ignore it! Oh, Overswarm.

Anyway, I'll stop addressing OS all together if he refuses to answer questions. If it was on the basis on that it was too long or too complicated, I'd be fine but... pretty sure my request was simple in nature.

 

[Overswarm]

I already addressed this, add 20 more skilled link mains and that WILL push up the average link results, considerably. The lower the number of players, the more this will occur.

I'm growing tired of this.

This isn't true, adumbrodeus. I don't think you quite know what you mean by "popularity". People aren't randomly picking characters, they pick them because they're their best characters. If there are more Metaknights that doesn't mean he's popular it means he's good. Good creates popularity.

To account for popularity I took only the very top placements at the biggest tournaments where all the big names showed up. If MK merely having more players there is all it took, then he has got to be the easiest character to use in the history of fighting games, because he dwarfs everyone else. Omni had to divide his points by THIRTEEN to get close to the other players.

Hm. Completely ignored.

New strategy: If you can't answer the question, ignore it! Oh, Overswarm.

Anyway, I'll stop addressing OS all together if he refuses to answer questions. If it was on the basis on that it was too long or too complicated, I'd be fine but... pretty sure my request was simple in nature.

You haven't asked me any questions yet, nor have answered any of my own. Again, I have at least 8 posts you've ignored because they're "too long".

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@a dumb bro

I disagree. If Sonic can hit you once and stall indefinitely, then pick Jigglypuff or a character who can stop him from doing that, or take him to Yoshi's.

 

[Zankoku]

v-13 was funny. DDDDD until your opponent messes up and gets hit, because they figured making her so safe that her projectiles spawned relative to the opponent and not herself was a good idea. I get the feeling matchups played only a small part in her dominance.

 

[Overswarm]

v-13 was funny. DDDDD until your opponent messes up and gets hit, because they figured making her so safe that her projectiles spawned relative to the opponent and not herself was a good idea. I get the feeling matchups played only a small part in her dominance.

V-13 WASN'T DOMINANT LOOK AT THAT ONE GUY PLAYING IRON TAGER

just get better, duh

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm really interested in how the game would play out if we legalized all stages that have no random components and adopted Items standard play.

Yeah Dedede would own a few people on Eldin, but so?

 

[Omni]

It's fine, OS. I'll just let you get back to your game. I think we all know who's losing anyway.

I'll be back later this evening, guys. Gotta' take care of a few errands and homework.

 

[Tien2500]

I count four.
1.) One..
2.) The other...
3.) Both...
4.) Neither...

I'm not limiting him nor loading the question. OS is just being a cheerleader again by comparing the killing of a neighbor with is a character broken.

I'm not going to address any of the questions coming to me about loaded questions because I don't want to get bogged down in semantics. Next time I'll just remained uninvolved.

Yes, philosophical or subjective in term. I've been stressing this point constantly.

I'm not so sure about it coming down to what is fun. Maybe for you and that's fine, but not everyone plays this game for fun. Some people play for money. Some people play for pride. Some people play just to win. I agree that the game should be fun, but I don't think it comes down to just... fun.

Replace the term fun with the term enjoyment.

I'm not sure money is a significant reason. Only the top players are really making a good amount of money. And even for those who are making money at Smash why choose this particular method? The fact that they chose this way to make money would probably be because they enjoy it as opposed to other ways of making money. Money is definitely a part of it but not the only part. And if money was the only factor everyone would play MK. I don't think its disputed that that is the best way of making money.

As for pride or winning I think that's just another aspect of enjoyment. Some people get joy out of showing off a skill and almost everybody gets joy out of winning.

I would say that the enjoyment of the game is the most important predictor of how long it survives. If you disagree what do you think is more important?

 

[Justblaze647]

Yeah Dedede would own a few people on Eldin, but so?

Bridge of Eldin would almost certainly always lead to a timeout.

 

[Tien2500]

edit: nvm.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Bridge of Eldin would almost certainly always lead to a timeout.

And? What's wrong with time-outs?

If we can't ban MK, then there are a lot of things that are currently banned that ought to be re-evaluated.

 

[Espy Rose]

@a dumb bro

I disagree. If Sonic can hit you once and stall indefinitely, then pick Jigglypuff or a character who can stop him from doing that, or take him to Yoshi's.

...Taking a Sonic to YI:B is absolutely the WORST thing you can do.
Even if you're DK.

Sonic can stall harder on YIB than on any other neutral level.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

...Taking a Sonic to YI:B is absolutely the WORST thing you can do.
Even if you're DK.

Sonic can stall harder on YIB than on any other neutral level.

OK, then maybe Sonic is just the best character in the game. (funny enough, with items and smashballs and every non-random stage legalized sonic would be #1)

I ask again:

So what?

 

[Zankoku]

I'm really interested in how the game would play out if we legalized all stages that have no random components and adopted Items standard play.

We already legalize stages that do have random components. There are actually very very few stages in Brawl that don't have any.

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't care.

I'm just sayin', don't take a Sonic to YIB.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We already legalize stages that do have random components. There are actually very very few stages in Brawl that don't have any.

A few examples from the top of my head

Hannenbow
Port Town: Aero Drive
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin

Are any of these random at all? I'm pretty sure events on these stages are all on timers.

 

[Overswarm]

Port Town has no random components.

The cars are on a track and hit teh same general area with the same safe zones. You can also see them coming in advance in all areas but one; the one you can't has the first few cars come without hitboxes, so you can move on reaction if you aren't already in a safe zone.

 

[Zankoku]

Hanenbow's fish are random. I believe their collisions with the leaves causes the leaves to slowly return to neutral state.

Port Town Aero Dive's stop locations are random. A little less random than Delfino Plaza's, but random nonetheless. Which cars are where on the track might be random too, but there's very minor variation there.

I haven't done enough work with Big Blue to see if the cars on the track are truly fixed, but given the trend that these stages have been going in I would go in doubting.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Overswarm, my name is also Evan.

Evans unite.

Hanenbow's fish are random. I believe their collisions with the leaves causes the leaves to slowly return to neutral state.

There are legal stages with affects more random and detrimental to matches than this. heh

Port Town Aero Dive's stop locations are random. A little less random than Delfino Plaza's, but random nonetheless. Which cars are where on the track might be random too, but there's very minor variation there.

Ban Delfino

 

[Overswarm]

*pound*

Evan ftw.

 

[Overswarm]

I'd just like to add we've past the thread views and posts for a stickied thread from June 6th, 2008.


big MK issue is big

 

[Zankoku]

There are legal stages with affects more random and detrimental to matches than this. heh

Oh, I'm sorry, I must've misread your criteria.

I'm really interested in how the game would play out if we legalized all stages that have no random components and adopted Items standard play.

Nope. As I said, a lot of the stages we already have legal contain random elements, themselves.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nope. As I said, a lot of the stages we already have legal contain random elements, themselves.

Aren't most banned stages banned because of random elements?

I know Bridge of Eldin is banned because of timeouts and because of walk-off chaingrabs (which seems pretty scrubby to me but whatever), but most stages are banned because of random interfering elements.

Sorry, maybe I'm not entirely educated on this subject, or maybe stage ban criteria is just pretty arbitrary. I'm open to either possibility.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm growing tired of this.

This isn't true, adumbrodeus. I don't think you quite know what you mean by "popularity". People aren't randomly picking characters, they pick them because they're their best characters. If there are more Metaknights that doesn't mean he's popular it means he's good. Good creates popularity.

To account for popularity I took only the very top placements at the biggest tournaments where all the big names showed up. If MK merely having more players there is all it took, then he has got to be the easiest character to use in the history of fighting games, because he dwarfs everyone else. Omni had to divide his points by THIRTEEN to get close to the other players.



You haven't asked me any questions yet, nor have answered any of my own. Again, I have at least 8 posts you've ignored because they're "too long".

But we're asking the question "is he good enough to be banned"?

We know he's good, and we know that creates more players, but in order to draw a conclusion about how much more powerful he is, we need to know how much the popularity effects his actual placing even though we know the popularity is at least partially fueled by his own power.



And divide by 13? Cheap shot man, he divided everyone by the number of relevant mains (whether his bar was too high or too low or whatever is an open question), so he did that for everyone, yay for half-truths!




And yes, it would cause a jump in Link results, might be irrelevant compared to other characters, but would cause a massive increase relative to his current standings.

@a dumb bro

I disagree. If Sonic can hit you once and stall indefinitely, then pick Jigglypuff or a character who can stop him from doing that, or take him to Yoshi's.

So, the metagame is... jiggs, mk, and that's basically it? Everyone else can only win on counterpick?


That's the definition of overcentralization, infinite stalls overcentralize by nature and therefore infinite stalls are banned, period.

 

[Zankoku]

Aren't most banned stages banned because of random elements?

I know Bridge of Eldin is banned because of timeouts and because of walk-off chaingrabs (which seems pretty scrubby to me but whatever), but most stages are banned because of random interfering elements.

Sorry, maybe I'm not entirely educated on this subject, or maybe stage ban criteria is just pretty arbitrary. I'm open to either possibility.

Only ridiculously game-deciding random elements will be cause for a ban; typically, ban criteria is based on whether there's anything heavily abusable to the point that it completely centralizes play on that stage around that single thing, like wall infinites/walkoffs on Shadow Moses.


MAJOR RANDOM ELEMENTS
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Frigate Orpheon
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Norfair
Flat Zone 2 (banned)
Rumble Falls (banned)
Spear Pillar (banned)
Wario Ware (banned)
Pictochat
Distant Planet

MINOR RANDOM ELEMENTS
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Brinstar
Delfino Plaza
Port Town Aero Dive
75m (banned)
Corneria (banned)
Green Hill Zone (banned)
Hanenbow (banned)
Mario Bros. (banned)
Mario Circuit (banned)
New Pork City (banned)
Onett (banned)
Shadow Moses (banned)
The Summit (banned)
Green Greens

UNSURE
Battlefield
Big Blue (banned)
Bridge of Eldin (banned)
Skyworld (banned)

NO RANDOM ELEMENTS
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion
Yoshi's Island (Pipes) (banned)
Hyrule Temple (banned)
Mushroomy Kingdom I (banned)
Mushroomy Kingdom II (banned)

 

[Palpi]

When did this turn into Stage discussion... f this.

 

[Tien2500]

What random elements could there be in BF?

 

[Zankoku]

The background. Don't worry about it, it's about as minor as which Metal Gear appears in Shadow Moses. : j

 

[Tien2500]

The background. Don't worry about it, it's about as minor as which Metal Gear appears in Shadow Moses. : j

Wow. If that might count then there are some pretty strict criteria. Lol.

 

[Overswarm]

But we're asking the question "is he good enough to be banned"?

We know he's good, and we know that creates more players, but in order to draw a conclusion about how much more powerful he is, we need to know how much the popularity effects his actual placing even though we know the popularity is at least partially fueled by his own power.



And divide by 13? Cheap shot man, he divided everyone by the number of relevant mains (whether his bar was too high or too low or whatever is an open question), so he did that for everyone, yay for half-truths!

He added 2 Diddy mains and 2 Snake mains and 13 MKs.

That's the equivalent of putting Wayne Gracie and 12 college jiujitsu students in a cage and comparing it to the words best kung fu expert and another prize kung fu fighter. When you divide the jiujitsu by 13 and kung fu by 2, you're not accounting for popularity; you're deliberately creating an arbitrary average.

 

[Tommy_G]

V-13(MK?) lol WASN'T DOMINANT LOOK AT THAT ONE GUY PLAYING IRON TAGER

just get better, duh

This + my bolded addition

MK isnt even as stupid as NU(V-13).
More people playing a character means more of a chance that someone who has the natural intelligence for the game is playing that character.
More people playing a character means more mindpower in finding situational counters to strategies(faster metagame evolution)

 

['V']

This thread is never going to get anywhere if this keeps up.