Official Metaknight Discussion

[etecoon]

Ahem. Although I don't put too much faith in the MU chart, it still doesn't agree with this post. Snake has two unfavorable matchups and one even one (according to the Snake boards). Diddy's boards, who apparently don't have too much faith in the MUs, claim there are quite a few bad ones. Marth doesn't have bad matchups with him gone? DDD begs to differ. ICs have a few too.
I don't know what your definition of a bad MU is, but every char that you mentioned has at least one bad MU against other viable chars. If you throw in the rest, I know Luigi does well against at least 2 of them (theoretically). There's a char, however, that has no bad MUs against any of these.

disadvantaged =/= bad

lol brick of text that was answered in the first two words of the post you were responding to. slight disadvantage is not the same thing as a bad matchup. I'll take a slight character disadvantage if it means that I'm playing the same character I always play, am more comfortable with, and know the matchup better with, while you divide your efforts.

and obligatory lol @ matchup chart/character boards

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Luigi is not viable, he will lose to DDD, marth, and snakes just as he does now. Of course he would place higher though.

Peach would still lose.. You are forgetting that without metaknight alot of those players will just flock to snake. She just can't get better vs snake in this metagame.

Rob doesn't really have that much of a metaknight problem, I don't know why people complain about that.

1. Luigi:DDD is really not that bad. If the infinite is banned, I'm almost certain luigi wrecks DDD; with the infinite, it's still almost even. Luigi:Marth is still really horrible; Luigi:Snake is bad but not unwinnable. But yeah, Luigi is questionable about how much more viable he gets when his very worst matchup is out of the picture.

2. I wish I knew more about peach at this point.

3. Oh wow, are you serious? ROB:MK is, as the ROB boards put it...

This is by far ROB’s worst matchup (at least- worst matchup without broken infinites!). May God, Allah, any number of the Indian Gods/Goddesses, Zeus and the entire Greek crew, Odin, and Lady Luck be on your side in this matchup. You will need it.

Go ask overswarm. Also, the MK boards had it around 70:30 last I checked. ROB gets completely destroyed by any MK that knows what they're doing. He "officially" has 3 really bad matchups: ZSS, G&W, and MK. MK just takes ROB apart like nobody's business.

ur dum

10lols

You're still a very bad troll.

lol@churchcomparison

Did you bother factoring in that MK has had the most exposure to the greatest number of good players? That people have tried to find ways to make him broken in order to ban him? That many other character's metagames and matchups knowledge are probably tens of thousands of playtime hours behind MK?

You have showed us data. Data by itself means nothing. It is information. You need to show us what that data means, and what caused that data to happen. Not just say OMG DOMINANCE AND I DON'T HAVE FUN AGAGAHAHAGAHAH.



Pro-ban's job. Not ours. We don't feel the need to ban a character, thus we have no need to establish criteria.

So you're saying that no matter what, Pro-ban loses. No matter what we shove in your face, you will consistently be able to say, "No, that's no good, it's subjective"... Again, what does it take to ban Metaknight in your eyes? Your opponent's controller bursting into flames?

Anti-ban doesn't need to esablish criteria, but they can say, that doesn't warrant a ban lulz.

This. If you aren't willing to say what DOES warrants a ban, then you shouldn't be able to say what DOESN'T.

 

[Hoshi No Senshi Meta Knight]

If we're talking about MK being banned or not, I don't believe he should be banned.He has his weaknesses thank you :/ yes he recovers like Jesus, yes he has fast attacks, yes he can be hard to KO at times but seriously HE HAS HIS WEAKNESSES!I chose MK for my main simply because he was my favorite character from the Kirby series.Now I will go hide behind a brick wall so I don't get bashed :/

 

[Palpi]

Budget, last 'does' in your post should be a doesn't...I think.

 

[o-Serin-o]

67 posts and you joined this month? Holy ****.


EDIT: HE JOINED YESTERDAY AND HAS 67 POSTS?! HOLY ****ING ****.

 

[CaptainOlimar123]

If we're talking about MK being banned or not, I don't believe he should be banned.He has his weaknesses thank you :/ yes he recovers like Jesus, yes he has fast attacks, yes he can be hard to KO at times but seriously HE HAS HIS WEAKNESSES!I chose MK for my main simply because he was my favorite character from the Kirby series.Now I will go hide behind a brick wall so I don't get bashed :/

I very much agree.

 

[Tommy_G]

What characters have MK as their worst matchup?

 

[fkacyan]

So you're saying that no matter what, Pro-ban loses. No matter what we shove in your face, you will consistently be able to say, "No, that's no good, it's subjective"... Again, what does it take to ban Metaknight in your eyes? Your opponent's controller bursting into flames?

If all you're going to do is wait for people like Crow! and OS to post data, yes, you lose. Data does nothing. Data is only information. Pro-ban has only very rarely actually shown what that data means. The meaning of the data is what is important. You have not dealt with that meaning.

This. If you aren't willing to say what warrants a ban, then you shouldn't be able to say what does.

Oho! You seem to be missing something here. It is pro-bans job to put up criteria unless they just want everybody to use their own. By the current standards, or the standard of "Everybody throw your opinion in," nobody is wrong in stating whether or not they want the character banned.

By the way, going from the last statement in the first paragraph of the quote I got from you, for me to ban MK you have to prove to me that MK's dominance is the result of his character design being amazingly superior and that it is not the end result of a large difference in the overall skill of the players playing the character, metagame advancement from more playtime hours overall from skilled players, matchup knowledge for the same reason, and technique advancement from both the aforementioned group and people like you who want the character banned (Many of MK's ******** techniques only became known to me as a result of people like Chibo and OS making videos cataloguing them). Prove this and I'm pro-ban.

Of course, I doubt pro-ban can prove this. If they could, instead of just throwing data in people's faces and screaming "AAAGAHGAHGAHGA DOMINANCE," they would have done so.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If we're talking about MK being banned or not, I don't believe he should be banned.He has his weaknesses thank you :/ yes he recovers like Jesus, yes he has fast attacks, yes he can be hard to KO at times but seriously HE HAS HIS WEAKNESSES!I chose MK for my main simply because he was my favorite character from the Kirby series.Now I will go hide behind a brick wall so I don't get bashed :/

All right. Which weaknesses that aren't innately overcome by his characteristics?

Budget, last 'does' in your post should be a doesn't...I think.

Yes, thank you.

EDIT: @TommyG: From the ones that matter, AFAIK: ROB, Marth, Peach, TL (?), G&W (?)... Too lazy to go searching at the moment.

By the way, going from the last statement in the first paragraph of the quote I got from you, for me to ban MK you have to prove to me that MK's dominance is the result of his character design being amazingly superior and that it is not the end result of a large difference in the overall skill of the players playing the character, metagame advancement from more playtime hours overall from skilled players, matchup knowledge for the same reason, and technique advancement from both the aforementioned group and people like you who want the character banned (Many of MK's ******** techniques only became known to me as a result of people like Chibo and OS making videos cataloguing them). Prove this and I'm pro-ban.

You realize that this is not only subjective but completely impossible?

 

[Hoshi No Senshi Meta Knight]

All right. Which weaknesses that aren't innately overcome by his characteristics?



Yes, thank you.

Gah...I've been shown who's boss....I'm going to go hide behind a wall...again.

As for the person who was wondering about whom MK's worse matchups could be, is probably himself or Snake.

 

[etecoon]

MK's worst matchup is MK.

 

[fkacyan]

You realize that this is not only subjective but completely impossible?

Thus why pro-ban's argument is, logically speaking, awful. You cannot actually prove that MK is dominant by design. Why should we even think about temp-banning the character when there is logical basis (Not proof, but basis) to believe that MK is good as a result of his playerbase's dedication?

Nothing I said was particularly subjective. Now, you speaking about "enjoyable" is all subjective.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Gah...I've been shown who's boss....I'm going to go hide behind a wall...again.

As for the person who was wondering about whom MK's worse matchups could be, I'm going with Snake here.

Protip: don't throw random stuff out if you can't back it up. I've done this a LOT, it's not helpful.

Also, he wasn't asking what MK's worst matchups were, he was asking which chars have MK as their worst matchup.

 

[fkacyan]

MK's worst matchup is MK.

MK's current worst matchup is even. If you want to try to make the argument that it always will be, be my guest. My week has been pretty crappy, and I could use a laugh.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

MK's current worst matchup is even. If you want to try to make the argument that it always will be, be my guest. My week has been pretty crappy, and I could use a laugh.

What is it? Please don't say MK.

 

[fkacyan]

What is it? Please don't say MK.

I think you missed the point of the post entirely. Imagine that the word 'current' is in italics.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I am missing the point. Are you trying to say someone goes even with MK, or to say that he has an even matchup (the ditto)?

 

[etecoon]

he's saying that in the future someone will have an advantageous matchup with meta knight

I laugh at this as an anti-ban argument because with the horrendous job anti-ban is currently doing, meta knight has no future.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

he's saying that in the future someone will have an advantageous matchup with meta knight

I laugh at this as an anti-ban argument because with the horrendous job anti-ban is currently doing, meta knight has no future.

Oh. In that case, what? Who will have a good MU against MK in the future? ICs? Diddy? SNAKE?

 

[Masmasher@]

Do advantaged matchups really matter that much?

 

[Teh Future]

So heres a story about Budget player cadet is completely ******** (as if you couldn't tell by his name being in that stupid color and his sig):

Recently I randomly stumbled across a video on youtube that I found was very lolzy. I proceeded to copy and past the video in the tactical boards so other could share my lolz. Here is the topic:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=265834

Note that the only words I actually posted myself that weren't copied are: "video proof he don ban."

If that doesn't show you that the post was a joke then I dont know what else I can do.

The mods did a greight job of closing the thread but not before Budget player cadet saw it and took it as a serious post. Seeing the thread was closed he proceeded to send me a very lengthy pm arguing his point. I sent him another pm trolling him even harder and he proceeded to spam me with moar messages.

tl;dr- Buget player cadet is dumb

 

[fkacyan]

he's saying that in the future someone will have an advantageous matchup with meta knight

I laugh at this as an anti-ban argument because with the horrendous job anti-ban is currently doing, meta knight has no future.

I'm saying it's a possibility.

What job? We don't have an argument to counter-argue. Pro-ban only has their opinion that MK is too dominant against our opinion that he isn't.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So heres a story about Budget player cadet is completely ******** (as if you couldn't tell by his name being in that stupid color and his sig):

Recently I randomly stumbled across a video on youtube that I found was very lolzy. I proceeded to copy and past the video in the tactical boards so other could share my lolz. Here is the topic:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=265834

Note that the only words I actually posted myself that weren't copied are: "video proof he don ban."

If that doesn't show you that the post was a joke then I dont know what else I can do.

The mods did a greight job of closing the thread but not before Budget player cadet saw it and took it as a serious post. Seeing the thread was closed he proceeded to send me a very lengthy pm arguing his point. I sent him another pm trolling him even harder and he proceeded to spam me with moar messages.

tl;dr- Buget player cadet is dumb

All right. Now tell me how this relates to the argument at hand, other than that potentially you get infracted enough to get banned?

EDIT: Probably worth noting that I knew that you were either a very obvious troll or a huge scrub (actually, both AFAIK). I'm that bored. If you take me seriously... LOL.

EDIT2: Eh **** it; I'm not really that smart. Does this make my arguments any less valid?

 

[etecoon]

What job? We don't have an argument to counter-argue. Pro-ban only has their opinion that MK is too dominant against our opinion that he isn't.

of course, I've said as much, it's entirely subjective and philosophical, you can't prove that MK needs to be or doesn't need to be banned. but as far as making a convincing argument goes, overswarm has been kicking everyones *** in here, omni was really the only resistance and he bailed. anyone that was neutral/undecided before this topic was created? much higher likelyhood that they've become pro ban than anti.

 

[Kewkky]

Teh_Future, what are you gaining from insulting someone for no reason? You, being happy that you're a troll, are part of the problem. Why even brag about how you pissed off this one guy? You didn't even say anything new relating to MK's fate, much less ANYTHING old. Why go out of your way to piss someone off?

I reported your post, by the way. Bad post is bad.

 

[fkacyan]

of course, I've said as much, it's entirely subjective and philosophical, you can't prove that MK needs to be or doesn't need to be banned. but as far as making a convincing argument goes, overswarm has been kicking everyones *** in here, omni was really the only resistance and he bailed. anyone that was neutral/undecided before this topic was created? much higher likelyhood that they've become pro ban than anti.

Why does anti-ban need to make a convincing argument?

Last I checked, the status quo doesn't have to make an argument until the anti-status quo does, and, as stated, all pro-ban's arguments are is I THINK HE'S TOO DOMINANT LOOK AT THIS DATA.

Interpretations of data are subjective, thus making any argument based on them moot without facts to show that MK himself is dominant, and that every other factor that could make him good is not relevant.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Teh_Future be trolling flaming like a big shot.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Don't be silly, of course the status quo has to argue. It has to argue against the data presented by the opposition, if it doesn't then it is accepting that they have lost.

 

[HeroMystic]

Do advantaged matchups really matter that much?

Seeing as how match-ups here are viewed as "How often so-and-so wins against such-and-such", yes.

 

[etecoon]

Why does anti-ban need to make a convincing argument?

because ultimately this issue comes down to which side is bigger and more determined.

also, 55% of the community wanted MK banned 6 months ago, that number has likely only grown. anti-ban is challenging conventional thought here just as much as pro-ban is.

 

[fkacyan]

Don't be silly, of course the status quo has to argue. It has to argue against the data presented by the opposition, if it doesn't then it is accepting that they have lost.

Argue against data?

You are either an idiot or delusional. The only way to argue against data is to show that the data is wrong or irrelevant.

All the status quo can argue against are the conclusions from that data, which, by the way, have to be supported by something other than the data the conclusion is drawn from.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Uh, right. Is the data wrong? Is it irrelevant? Are the conclusions reached irrelevant?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

because ultimately this issue comes down to which side is bigger and more determined.

also, 55% of the community wanted MK banned 6 months ago, that number has likely only grown. anti-ban is challenging conventional thought here just as much as pro-ban is.

Well, if enough of anti-ban just shakes their head, stomps their feet, holds their breath until they go blue and say "NO" then it won't happen, even if MK was at the same level as SF2T Akuma.

 

[Omni]

You realize that this is not only subjective but completely impossible?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY - Ivan Ooze
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGxChmOnYY - Lol, Affinity video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7NEbEZX0Q&feature=related - Eyedol

Too many "Akuma is broken" videos to count.

 

[fkacyan]

Uh, right. Is the data wrong? Is it irrelevant? Are the conclusions reached irrelevant?

The conclusions reached are only supported by the data of two people, and both data sources are different ways of presenting the same thing: Dominance. You have yet to prove why he dominant and why that is bad, or even really argue it.

Thusly, nothing to argue against. Pro-ban lacks actual substance.

 

[Tien2500]

The conclusions reached are only supported by the data of two people, and both data sources are different ways of presenting the same thing: Dominance. You have yet to prove why he dominant and why that is bad, or even really argue it.

Thusly, nothing to argue against. Pro-ban lacks actual substance.

He's dominant because he's better then the rest of the cast. If there is some other conclusion that can logically be drawn from the data then go for it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY - Ivan Ooze
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGxChmOnYY - Lol, Affinity video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7NEbEZX0Q&feature=related - Eyedol

Too many "Akuma is broken" videos to count.

Try doing that in Brawl, almost regardless of how good the character is. It is virtually impossible in this situation. I'm well aware that we can show that characters in other systems are broken and all, but is it even possible to demonstrate that in the Brawl environment?

EDIT: Also, those are extreme examples-examples of a balancing team fast asleep, or characters that just aren't intended for normal play, but as bosses. MK is not that.

 

[fkacyan]

He's dominant because he's better then the rest of the cast. If there is some other conclusion that can logically be drawn from the data then go for it.

Why is he better? What makes him better?

Before you state aspects of his character, broken ATs, etc....

Factor in that he has better people playing him, more people playing him, and more people dedicated to making him better / breaking him to ban him, and has for quite some time, and thus his metagame, techniques, and matchup knowledge by definition will be farther along than the rest of the cast.

 

[Omni]

Try doing that in Brawl, almost regardless of how good the character is. It is virtually impossible in this situation. I'm well aware that we can show that characters in other systems are broken and all, but is it even possible to demonstrate that in the Brawl environment?

I guess what I'm saying is that because you can't make a video like the ones above...

...there's a good chance that the character isn't broken and thus fits within the game and its cast.

How do you justify banning a character who is not broken?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Thio: these have been addressed, read the thread.