Official Metaknight Discussion

[Albert.]

In melee we have statistical trends showing obvious character variety at the very top. By Brawl standards (excluding MK) it is very low, but for Melee's roster it's actually incredibly balanced. "Tournament viable" characters can be considered to be Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, and Captain Falcon.

What those in Brawl saying "Snake can do it" or "Diddy can do it" is the equivalent of saying that "Peach can do it" because of Vidjo way back in the day and Armada now.... except weaker. We are aware of their ability to see the victory screen, but see no statistical evidence that those characters are worthwhile choices vs. MK.

That last line is just straight bull****.


This is where theory crafting and number crunching is totally useless

You say that statistically, the only viable Melee characters are Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, CF.

But, as you implied, Peach, ICs, and Ganon DO WELL.

K so it's Fox Falco Marth Sheik Jiggs, CF, Peach, ICs Ganon.


Its the same way in brawl

except its

MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Wario

If you look at match-up ratios and high level playing- MK is not indestructible

Snake- Close match. M2k and Ally go back and forth, And less skilled (but still high-level) players like Fatal and Shadow can go from MK beating Snake to Snake beating MK (in the span of one month at N.E. tourneys)

Diddy- There are some truly amazing Diddy players out there that beat or go-even with top MKs. ADHD currently has Pound 4 and SNES under his belt. GNes forced M2k to scrooge him out at Winterfest. Kind of unknown WC Diddy player Felix and similarly unknown Falco player Nerd took games off of M2k and Larry at TP4

Falco- Larry. End point

ICs and Wario also do well.

So in the Bawrl top tier metagame, "tourney viable" there are 5-6 characters that can compete with MK, and have been proven to be able to fvck the bat up

As much as I would love to not deal with MK (as a Marth/DDD main) , there's way too much "even-ness" at the top to really warrant a MK ban. If you ban MK you might as well ban Diddy too, because those two have been proven to be exceptionally broken characters.

 

[Tien2500]

\
Snake
Diddy
Ice Climbers
Falco

Snake- Ally has gone around 50:50 with M2k. I don't know if I'd call this proof but thats your call.

Diddy- ADHD is the only notable Diddy. I'd like to see others mimic this feat to call it proof.

Ice Climbers- Ice Climbers for a little while went around even... But then they started to struggle. I don't know if there has been a noteworthy Climber victory in some time.

Falco- Falco *might* go even *if* there are ledgegrabbing rules in effect. Again this isn't something that has been seen on a wide scale.

Also the data crow gathered indicates that MK is three times better than Snake and the gap increases from there.

 

[Raziek]

The data is fine and valid. All the respect in the world to Crow for compiling it. It's the interpretations that I have the problem with.

Every fighting game has a best character with really good matchups, and is usually the most popular character because of it. Melee, as I alluded to, is one of those games. So is Brawl, Metaknight is not a special case in the fighting game community, or even the smash community. Pikachu in 64 was also another dominant force who didn't even have a neutral matchup, they were all advantages. Pikachu is still around -- the community has developed ways to deal with the character. Like Fox. And Sheik early in Melee's lifecycle. And now Metaknight.

Metaknight is not in the realm of brokenness because he can be beaten by top players at top level tournaments. Ergo, while his usage is trending upwards, at the top levels of play it's been proven that other top level players at that top level of play using top level characters can beat him. That is, of course, that these top level players aren't using characters where they actually attack with tops -- in that case, pick someone other than ROB

Characters that have proven they can compete with Metaknight:
Snake
Diddy
Ice Climbers
Falco

Looks healthy enough to me, and that's not even counting characters like Marth or Sheik where apparently the ratios are starting to shift more towards neutral.

P.S. the Jiggs are the outliers because they are performing better than their character's tier indicates. Thus they are really, really good and don't follow any sort of trend. Or at least, that's how you guys would dismiss their results.

Ok, let's see, where to start.

Firstly, get off of 64. We already debunked it's validity using Pikachu as a comparison. Please go read somewhere around page 250. (+ or - 20) Not to mention, you implied there's still a tournament scene for 64. I shouldn't have to tell you why this is wrong.

Second part, outliers, we've been over this. There are no Diddy's, Falcos or Snakes who have even come CLOSe to emulating ADHD, Ally, and DEHF.

Characters that have proven they can compete with Metaknight:
Snake
Read the chart, he's nowhere near MK, Ally is basically the only Snake who can ever win.
Diddy
Even worse off than Snake, it's just ADHD.
Ice Climbers
LOL?
Falco
Same thing as Diddy and Snake, except DEHF.

Nobody is replicating these results by THREE players. Stop trying to convince yourself that this means Snake, Diddy and Falco are in the same league as MK.

I'm getting sick of seeing the same **** arguments from anti-ban that we CONSISTENTLY debunk time and time again. Bringing up DEHF, Ally and ADHD HURTS your case, because you're admitting they're the only ones who can actually do it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If fox existed in melee without marth falco sheik falcon or puff... fox would still be the best in the game, and fox wouldn't be banned.

If anyone brought up banning fox we would all laugh at him.

I guess thats just the difference between the communities. Melee just plays their game and has fun. Brawl has to whine because the top character's worst matchup is even with diddy and snake...

...Really?

You have one viable char and maybe 2 chars that can almost be viable. JUST LIKE BRAWL. You also don't have all the Sheiks, Falcos, Marths, etc. on the results list. And you're going to tell me in a situation like that, melee wouldn't be crying for blood and/or kind of declining? (Granted, fox doesn't play gayer than elton john in a room with chuck norris...)

Don't worry about me.

If I was worried or didn't think anti-ban couldn't respond, I wouldn't be here saying that I will have a response.

I'm not worried you won't have a response, I'm worried you will put it in a way that won't give pro-ban a chance to respond.

 

[Albert.]

Metaknight is a pretty popular character.


I know, I know, shocking.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Metaknight is a pretty popular character.


I know, I know, shocking.

Maaaybe I missed the point of that big post Crow made, but wasn't it kinda to prove that MK's dominance has NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS POPULARITY?

Come back after reading the ****ing thread.

 

[Flayl]

Metaknight is a pretty popular character.

I know, I know, shocking.

Already accounted for. Your move.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Not the Point.

This thread moves faster than Sonic.

If everyone would switch to Falco/Diddy/Snake/ICs/Marth/Wario/ZSS we could stop complaining about MK.

But if MK is banned, then that character range expands to include Luigi/Lucario/DK/Peach/Sonic/GaW/Pikachu/ROB/Kirby.

If people would have a melee mentality and accept that MK ***** most of the cast and while he still beats other good characters they have a much more legit chance, then I would say there's no reason to support a ban (unless results STILL looked like Pound4). But as long as people want to play other "decent" characters that only really suck because of MK, then people will complain, and part of the community will support a ban. I'm not calling either side scrubs, I'm saying that people play this game for different reasons.

You say "well if you don't like MK, and wont pick up a better character, then quit"...well ****, there goes half the community, half of tournament attendance, and Brawl as a competitive game dies.

That's why we have to work to please the majority. Because otherwise the community dies either way...

Hate to be the doomsayer, but
Yup, I agree with you. As far as I see it, Brawl is in checkmate.
All we can do slow down the inevitable decay and death.

The same way that OS's "I will ban MK" group will unite the community, by showing the rest the door.


I mean, I can't fault them at this point, I've talked to Omni about it, and nobody is gonna give an inch here anymore, not even for a process. They're uniting behind one or the other.


All I can say is, this is some b***sh** and watch the pretty colors as what is likely imploding of the Brawl community occurs.



Well... and invite everyone to play Melee when the dust settles.

I'm one step ahead of you.

I'm not sure you understand this basic point, OS, so allow me to attempt to tattoo it into your skull.

The issue with debating the MK ban is that there is no agreed-upon criteria for what constitutes a bannable character and thus whether or not to ban MK is a matter of one's own opinion

.

This time infinity squared.

So yes, you guys are doing the same thing effectively, and you've both brought it to the point that whoever wins is resulting in a community split.

If you want a resolution that bad, go for it, but I want a process that, one that there can be a consensus around so it won't tear the community apart. But who listens to me anyway?

*sigh*


Have fun with your 5 players, I'll be over here playing melee.

Me too. This feels like a war with no victor.

Sup guys, I'm the actual fact of the matter here, trying to bring the actual discussion back down to earth.

Until pro-ban can actually state what constitutes a ban, as opposed to flashing graphs in our faces, etc, there's absolutely no grounds for a ban because anybody can create their own criteria and go from there.

This also.

I blame the game engine (and the designers too, for not making this game indirectly against balance) for all of this crap.

Lurker AWAAAAAYYYYYY!!!!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@Budget,

Nah, we'd play the game. As a bunch of people on this page have posted, MK goes even or close to even with diddy snake and falco (if ledge grab limit is in effect). If those were MK's worst but the numbers were like... 80-20 in his favor for i would agree he is ban worthy.

tl;dr popularity statistics paralleled next to tournament placements mean absolutely nothing.

 

[PND]

I'm bringing up ADHD and Ally because they're the ones that do well against M2K.

Here are other players that do well:
Snake: Razer. He does pretty ****ing well against MKs like Dojo.
Diddy: Gnes, and up in Canada-land Silver Doc does really well with his Diddy. TBH I haven't heard much else other than ADHD, Doc, and Gnes, but whatevs.
IC's: Swordgard proves that IC's are viable and capable of competing with MKs and Snakes.

These are all top to high level players who do well against MK with their characters. There are plenty of players replicating those high level players, you're just blind to their successes.

 

[Omni]

I'm not worried you won't have a response, I'm worried you will put it in a way that won't give pro-ban a chance to respond.

That's up to strength of pro-ban's arguments. If it's solid, there's no contesting it.

Someone's going to have to have the last word or the debate will never end because believe me when I say I'm not going to sit around here going back and forth endlessly.

 

[Albert.]

Maaaybe I missed the point of that big post Crow made, but wasn't it kinda to prove that MK's dominance has NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS POPULARITY?

Come back after reading the ****ing thread.

Y'all are acting as if Crow's post is revealing some kind of golden achile's heel in the anti-ban argument or as if it's wonderful spirit bomb of pro-banning brilliance.

It doesn't.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Y'all are acting as if Crow's post is revealing some kind of golden achile's heel in the anti-ban argument or as if it's wonderful spirit bomb of pro-banning brilliance.

It doesn't.

Well as far as I could see, it poked a hole in the argument you tried to use. AGAIN.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If fox existed in melee without marth falco sheik falcon or puff... fox would still be the best in the game, and fox wouldn't be banned.

If anyone brought up banning fox we would all laugh at him.

I guess thats just the difference between the communities. Melee just plays their game and has fun. Brawl has to whine because the top character's worst matchup is even with diddy and snake...

Ok, that's overstepping.


You've basically removed the entire viable cast, and honestly, minus the rogue peach and Ganondorf, nobody has the possibility of winning a tournament, and honestly, they don't do well enough against fox to warrant a reliable mention. It would be a one character metagame, like Brawl or probably closer to Super Turbo.


If that were the metagame, I would've quit long ago, heck, brawl might even be preferable.

Metaknight is a pretty popular character.


I know, I know, shocking.

Analyze Crow!'s statistics please. Feeling too lazy ATM.

Not the Point.

This thread moves faster than Sonic.



Hate to be the doomsayer, but
Yup, I agree with you. As far as I see it, Brawl is in checkmate.
All we can do slow down the inevitable decay and death.



I'm one step ahead of you.

.

This time infinity squared.



Me too. This feels like a war with no victor.



This also.

I blame the game engine (and the designers too, for not making this game indirectly against balance) for all of this crap.

Lurker AWAAAAAYYYYYY!!!!

I tried to develop a process to create a criteria, not enough interested parties before this developed into an "I have more TO support then you" contest.


Which is the apocolypse scenario.

 

[Flayl]

I vote we keep MK in the game but he's limited to 3 shuttle loops, 9 tornados and 6 down smashes per match.

 

[Overswarm]

Does anyone else find it amusing that most of the anti-ban people in here don't even play Brawl? XD

It's almost magical.

Melee players and MK mains unite to save Metaknight!


(it rhymes!)

 

[Raziek]

tl;dr popularity statistics paralleled next to tournament placements mean absolutely nothing.

You seriously just don't get it, do you? This is the only kind of data that can feasibly be presented without a temp ban, which anti-ban refuses to permit. To say it means nothing is to say nothing means anything.

It's like running into a foam bouncy wall. You try and try and try, and it just bounces off for no seemingly logical reason.

 

[Flayl]

The only way to convince Sveet, Albert and Thiocyanide that MK deserves banning is to find a glitch that makes him invincible for- oh wait.

 

[Raziek]

The only way to convince Sveet, Albert and Thiocyanide that MK deserves banning is to find a glitch that makes him invincible for- oh wait.

Well played.

 

[Kewkky]

Albert, 'tourney-viable' characters are those that you don't have to be a GOD with in order to win tourneys with. I've seen Snakes, Diddies, Warios, Falcos and Marths winning decent-sized tourneys, but only a Snake, a Falco and a Diddy breaching the top 3 at national-sized tourneys.

I could win a tourney with Kirby and ZSS.... But a national where ALLLL the top-players are in... Do you actually expect Pikachu, or Lucario, or Kirby to actually make it to top 3?

 

[Overswarm]

The only way to convince Sveet, Albert and Thiocyanide that MK deserves banning is to find a glitch that makes him invincible for- oh wait.

That's not true; technically if we found some sort of technique (or two) that was just so overpowering that people felt it couldn't be beaten, that'd work too.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Does anyone else find it amusing that most of the anti-ban people in here don't even play Brawl? XD

It's almost magical.

Melee players and MK mains unite to save Metaknight!


(it rhymes!)

So I play melee and Brawl, is that a crime?

The only way to convince Sveet, Albert and Thiocyanide that MK deserves banning is to find a glitch that makes him invincible for- oh wait.

Well, if we can find one can be used for an infinite stall that can't be discretely and enforcably banned for those purposes, I'm game.

Albert, 'tourney-viable' characters are those that you don't have to be a GOD with in order to win tourneys with. I've seen Snakes, Diddies, Warios, Falcos and Marths winning decent-sized tourneys, but only a Snake, a Falco and a Diddy breaching the top 3 at national-sized tourneys.

I could win a tourney with Kirby and ZSS.... But a national where ALLLL the top-players are in... Do you actually expect Pikachu, or Lucario, or Kirby to actually make it to top 3?

AND MARTH!


And if the kirby or Pikachu is as good as ADHD, yea.

Spoiler

take that as you will

 

[Chuee]

I vote we keep MK in the game but he's limited to 3 shuttle loops, 9 tornados and 6 down smashes per match.

All 3 of those moves aren't near broken.

 

[Omni]

The reason why I'm not as excited as Overswarm in debating over Metaknight:

Oh god. Can't wait.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That's not true; technically if we found some sort of technique (or two) that was just so overpowering that people felt it couldn't be beaten, that'd work too.

WHERE IS YOUR VIDEO OS

All 3 of those moves aren't near broken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50S5pS0Frbs

Seriously, get with the times. :V

 

[Flayl]

All 3 of those moves aren't near broken.

I was making a joke about MK - Falco being even if you limit MK's ledge grabs to 50.

Which hasn't been proven broken for characters that aren't MK btw.

 

[Taylor-Corn]

OOHH brawl drama....worse than girl drama and giraffe drama combined...GO melee@@

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Is EDC banned?

 

[Albert.]

Does anyone else find it amusing that most of the anti-ban people in here don't even play Brawl? XD

It's almost magical.

Melee players and MK mains unite to save Metaknight!


(it rhymes!)

I play brawl and would most definitely love it if I didn't have to deal with Metas.

 

[HeroMystic]

I tried to develop a process to create a criteria, not enough interested parties before this developed into an "I have more TO support then you" contest.


Which is the apocolypse scenario.

The fact that all the "factual" information on this board is opinionated and downplayed makes criteria pretty much impossible to base off of any gathered data. What's worse is no one is willing to do the work.

In which case making criteria on anything outside of Crow's post is pretty much impossible.

 

[Chuee]

Well, ledge grab rules are actually really common, and even without them you probably won't get planked.

 

[Zulu Nation]

Ok I've been reading this and I agree anti-ban is insane.

The meaning of insanity is do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result......

You guys say the same thing over and over again hoping to get a different result after pro-ban ends that speech.

 

[Albert.]

Ok I've been reading this and I agree anti-ban is insane.

The meaning of insanity is do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result......

You guys say the same thing over and over again hoping to get a different result after pro-ban ends that speech.

Hmm... This got me thinking

The Pro-Ban side is pretty crazy. One could say that a meaning of crazy is that you say the same **** over and over again and expect not to sound whiny and/or sycophantically repetitive.

Y'all peoples say the things the same way again and again and hope to get a different result!

 

[Flayl]

The problem with criteria adumbrodeus, is that several of us have brought it up several times (which you can apply to any game, not just Brawl) and all anti-ban has to say is "nuh-uh!" because it's based on opinion.

Here are the criteria that have been presented so far, not all of pro-ban agree on them:
a) MK has a technique that shuts down 2/3 of the cast -> opinion
b) MK does not have a matchup outside of mirror that is worse than 6:4 (55:45 on smashboards) -> opinion
c) MK's performace is disproportionately good compared to every other character -> opinion

So... What criteria is there that the pro-ban could gather data for and NOT be dismissed with a "Nah, I don't think so."

 

[Overswarm]

Hmm... This got me thinking

The Pro-Ban side is pretty crazy. One could say that a meaning of crazy is that you say the same **** over and over again and expect not to sound whiny and/or sycophantically repetitive.

Y'all peoples say the things the same way again and again and hope to get a different result!

?

We've attacked it from a philosphical perspective as well as a statistical perspective. It even started at the lowest levels from a plain old-fashioned "MK is dumb" argument. We've appraoched the statistics of the matter from a variety of different ways and have done this in video form, audio (podcast) form, text based open discussions, text based arguments posted in a single post, multiple polls....

I'm not sure what you're really referencing.

 

[Zulu Nation]

It seems they say the same thing because you guys say the same thing that don't make sense. So....


@Flayl: What? how is number three an opinion IF THERE IS A GRAPH ON YOUR COMPUTER SCREEN?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50S5pS0Frbs

Seriously, get with the times. :V

You mean the Tornado that most of the cast can pivot grab him out of, or beat it out with certain moves?

The Dsmash that is very punishable on block?

And the Shuttle loop that has a glide attack that clashes?

 

[Zulu Nation]

You mean the Tornado that most of the cast can pivot grab him out of, or beat it out with certain moves?

The Dsmash that is very punishable on block?

And the Shuttle loop that has a glide attack that clashes?

Aiyyo homie I'm pretty sure it was a joke.

 

[Flayl]

@Flayl: What? how is number three an opinion IF THERE IS A GRAPH ON YOUR COMPUTER SCREEN?

Trust me, it's disproportionately large in my eyes. But have you seen Thiocyanide's response to Crow!'s post?

"And...?"

So either Thiocyanide has a different opinion or... I don't know.

 

[Kewkky]

Sveet shouldn't even be part of this forum. He's not even researched anything Brawl-related, who does he think he is coming here and questioning people who have some sort of legit background info about their stances? I don't take anything Sveet says seriously in here... Maybe if this was the Melee community I would be open and ready to be persuaded, but this isn't the case, and he's just trying to argue in a game he doesn't know enough about.

And I don't think neither Pro- nor Anti-ban are insane or crazy or whatever. For you to say this, you'd be willing to accept that every time a community is split between two groups, both are insane and crazy. We both have goals we'd like to accomplish, and people to back each side. Nothing is gained from namecalling or demeaning the opposing side, except more namecalling.


So please, cut it out people. I wanna read useful posts, not "you're insane" posts.