Official Metaknight Discussion

[.AC.]

there isnt even a clear point where a character becomes banworthy in brawl lol.

 

[Turbo Ether]

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2010/feb/13/top-50-sfiv-players-japan-character-stats/

hmm seems like sagat is more dominant in japan and they dont seem to have a problem with it.

Um, read posts #28 and #32 in the comments section of that link.

Arcade points =/= tournament results. Not even close.

 

[Kewkky]

there isnt even a clear point where a character becomes banworthy in brawl lol.

Then why are you saying Sagat is more dominant and not banned? If there's no clear point, then your original argument weights nothing until everyone decides Brawl and SF4 have the same limiters.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I really dont believe Omni is proban. Someone's opinion doesnt change so easily just because...

Neither do I... Also, all he's done so far is argue against pro-ban points and present madness taking us away from the topic. If there's a point Omni, get to it soon.

there isnt even a clear point where a character becomes banworthy in brawl lol.

Oh, so we should never ban a character in brawl. Even if they find an AT for that char that gives them 70-30s over the entire cast. Never ever ban a char ever because there's no criteria. Hmm...
Do I have to explain why this is stupid?

 

[Omni]

Arcade points =/= tournament results. Not even close.

Turbo, those arcade points are very similar to our player rankings. These players use their cards so a large contribution of their points is based on tournament results. The numbers next to their name reflects:

1.) Amount of time spent
2.) Friendlies performance
3.) Tournament performance

At the highest amounts, Mago taking out a new string newbie will not receive many BP points but will lose a large amount.

Basically, they are a very accurate reflection of character rankings.

 

[.AC.]

Neither do I... Also, all he's done so far is argue against pro-ban points and present madness taking us away from the topic. If there's a point Omni, get to it soon.



Oh, so we should never ban a character in brawl. Even if they find an AT for that char that gives them 70-30s over the entire cast. Never ever ban a char ever because there's no criteria. Hmm...
Do I have to explain why this is stupid?

do i have to explain why what you said is stupid? there is a point where a character is obviously broken, having 7:3 MUs against every character is an obvious one, while the point where mk is right now is not clear whether he is bannable or not.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Turbo, those arcade points are very similar to our player rankings. These players use their cards so a large contribution of their points is based on tournament results. The numbers next to their name reflects:

1.) Amount of time spent
2.) Friendlies performance
3.) Tournament performance

At the highest amounts, Mago taking out a new string newbie will not receive many BP points but will lose a large amount.

Basically, they are a very accurate reflection of character rankings.

Daigo is better than Mago. Mago is many, many points above Daigo. Why?

 

[Omni]

also, there is nothing wrong with comparing other games to make points about criteria.

if you read Overswarm's post, in order to make several points to justify why he believed in it he would use examples of other competitive games such as Starcraft and Risk because they share similar natures in terms of competitive games.

if we are talking about the essence of banning a character in a competitive game it is not unrealistic to compare how other competitive games dealt with bans despite them being different games.

just like how we can look at history and compare what makes a person a leader. adolf hitler, ghandi, and donald trump are completely different people who existed in different time frames and accomplished different things in different fields... but if the middle ground is comparing what makes a person a leader then these 3 become good comparable fields.

i would rather people stop brushing off other competitive games simply because they're different. it doesn't take away from the fact that they are indeed competitive fighting video games.

to suggest that smash cannot be compared with anything just because the game mechanics are unique is silly

@Turbo Ether: Daigo is capable of beating Mago. Mago, however, enters more tournaments and wins on a more frequent basis than Daigo thus he is considered to be better. that's like saying Azen is better than M2K despite Azen not coming to tournaments and showing results. it's the exact same reason why Ally is #1 and Mew2King is #2 as of lately

 

[Kewkky]

also, there is nothing wrong with comparing other games to make points about criteria.

if you read Overswarm's post, in order to make several points to justify why he believed in it he would use examples of other competitive games such as Starcraft and Risk because they share similar natures in terms of competitive games.

if we are talking about the essence of banning a character in a competitive game it is not unrealistic to compare how other competitive games dealt with bans despite them being different games.

just like how we can look at history and compare what makes a person a leader. adolf hitler, ghandi, and donald trump are completely different people who existed in different time frames and accomplished different things in different fields... but if the middle ground is comparing what makes a person a leader then these 3 become good comparable fields.

i would rather people stop brushing off other competitive games simply because they're different. it doesn't take away from the fact that they are indeed competitive fighting video games.

to suggest that smash cannot be compared with anything just because the game mechanics are unique is silly

I'm saying that the reasons given to us as to why we can't compare Brawl to SF4 should be followed by the side who brought it up in the first place. I DO take from other communities to compare our own, which was the case when I compared Brawl to Tekken 4 at the start of this whole debate. If they tell us "don't bring up SF4", but then they bring up SF4 to back up whoever's argument, don't you think something is wrong with one of their two arguments? Either let us bring back our old arguments that kept being dismissed, or keep their arguments weaker. That's the way I see it.

And what I did was a two-faced reply, both answers benefitting me. If he said "they can be compared", then I could continue. If he said "they can't be compared", then he would be forced to stop. i dunno if its allowed but meh

 

[Omni]

thats cool, kewkky.

but a lot of pro-ban (not including myself) like Overswarm are very quick to dismiss competitive video game comparisons

 

[Turbo Ether]

So, Mago is ranked higher because he plays more often, yet when Daigo and Mago do play, Daigo usually wins. I'm under the impression that Daigo would be ranked higher if he played just as much as Mago.

Also, I disagree with your comparison. I believe that Ally is legitimately better than M2K, justifying his rank. Azen, relatively speaking, does not compare to Daigo, either. Daigo is ranked #2 in Japan, and generally considered the best player in the world. Azen isn't ranked at all, is nowhere near being considered the best.

 

[Overswarm]

also, there is nothing wrong with comparing other games to make points about criteria.

if you read Overswarm's post, in order to make several points to justify why he believed in it he would use examples of other competitive games such as Starcraft and Risk because they share similar natures in terms of competitive games.

I did this only to show qualities of competitive games in general, and not to make a direct comparison.

if we are talking about the essence of banning a character in a competitive game it is not unrealistic to compare how other competitive games dealt with bans despite them being different games.

just like how we can look at history and compare what makes a person a leader. adolf hitler, ghandi, and donald trump are completely different people who existed in different time frames and accomplished different things in different fields... but if the middle ground is comparing what makes a person a leader then these 3 become good comparable fields.

Only in the abstract. If Donald trump had a problem with a foreign country he wouldn't necessarily invade them. The gameplan is different, and we can only take the most abstract and generalized notions to heart when comparing them; it's why Robert Greene's books are able to be written in a way that seems applicable to non-war or leadership scenarios.

So we can't say "this game had X% of this and our game has X as well, so we must do Y as the other game did" anymore than we can say "custom stages were the only stages used in starcraft at the highest level of play in recent years, we we should use only custom stages". We can, however, say "custom stages were used in starcraft to increase the variety of play and to give the players and TOs control over balance issues in the game" and can then look at our own game to determine what would add variety of play and give players/TOs control and make our decision from there.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

thats cool, kewkky.

but a lot of pro-ban (not including myself) like Overswarm are very quick to dismiss competitive video game comparisons

I think I see what's happening here...

Omni, what made you switch to pro-ban?

 

[RDK]

Lol @ everything Omni's typed in the past 5 pages.

 

[Kewkky]

thats cool, kewkky.

but a lot of pro-ban (not including myself) like Overswarm are very quick to dismiss competitive video game comparisons

Ah, ok, sorry about that... I thought it was directed at me because you replied with that right after I replied to .AC. what I wrote.

 

[Omni]

So, Mago is ranked higher because he plays more often, yet when Daigo and Mago do play, Daigo usually wins. I'm under the impression that Daigo would be ranked higher if he played just as much as Mago.

Also, I disagree with your comparison. I believe that Ally is legitimately better than M2K, justifying his rank. Azen, relatively speaking, does not compare to Daigo.

Just because Player A can beat Player B does not mean Player A is better overall.

I did this only to show qualities of competitive games in general, and not to make a direct comparison.

You made a direct comparison of the qualities of a competitive video game. Right?

Only in the abstract. If Donald trump had a problem with a foreign country he wouldn't necessarily invade them. The gameplan is different, and we can only take the most abstract and generalized notions to heart when comparing them; it's why Robert Greene's books are able to be written in a way that seems applicable to non-war or leadership scenarios.

I disagree. The qualities of a leader can be applied to accomplish different goals. However, if the end result is that those goals are achieved, then those shared qualities are comparable. I don't think it can only be compared in the abstract.

So we can't say "this game had X% of this and our game has X as well, so we must do Y as the other game did" anymore than we can say "custom stages were the only stages used in starcraft at the highest level of play in recent years, we we should use only custom stages". We can, however, say "custom stages were used in starcraft to increase the variety of play and to give the players and TOs control over balance issues in the game" and can then look at our own game to determine what would add variety of play and give players/TOs control and make our decision from there.

since I disagree with the above, I obviously disagree with this.

character dominance is a universal quality of competitive video games just how leadership is a universal quality of people who made great achievements. i believe you can make these comparisons despite the fact that the scenarios have changed. history shows us this

@RDK: what is that suppose to mean

 

[Turbo Ether]

Would the SF community agree with your implication that Mago is, in fact, better than Daigo?

 

[Omni]

Would the SF community agree with your implication that Mago is, in fact, better than Daigo?

i dont know. go over to Japan and ask them for me.

if we're looking at this from a statistical approach Mago is 1st. he wins more tournaments more frequently. he loses less frequently. if you disagree with me, then i'm curious as to what you think about Metaknight and that given point system

do you think adhd is a better player than m2k?

 

[Turbo Ether]

i dont know. go over to Japan and ask them for me.

if we're looking at this from a statistical approach Mago is 1st. he wins more tournaments more frequently. he loses less frequently. if you disagree with me, then i'm curious as to what you think about Metaknight and that given point system

do you think adhd is a better player than m2k?

Are you able to provide a link specifically to the Japanese tournament results? Battle point ranking being influenced by friendlies, general time spent, and people's battle cards being deleted obviously skews the results. I'd like to see Mago and Daigo's win/loss ratio per tournament.

I don't know what you mean by "Metaknight and that given point system".

I believe it's possible that ADHD is better than M2K. It's also possible that ADHD is just ahead of the metagame.

Edit: Details added

 

[RDK]

@RDK: what is that suppose to mean

You're pro-ban now?

 

[Omni]

Are you able to provide a link specifically to the Japanese tournament results? Battle point ranking being influenced by friendlies, general time spent, and people's battle cards being deleted obviously skews the results. I'd like to see Mago and Daigo's win/loss ratio per tournament.

I don't know what you mean by "Metaknight and that given point system".

I believe it's possible that ADHD is better than M2K. It's also possible that ADHD is just ahead of the metagame.

Edit: Details added

http://nsb.blog.shinobi.jp/ - NSB Blog
http://www.trftrf.com/ - Nakano TRF
http://www.a-cho.com/

have fun navigating. unlike you, i've been keeping up with the japanese sf4 tournament scene since it started so already know i'm right. if you don't believe me then go ahead and prove me wrong.

character power rankings, turbo.

no comment on your comment about ADHD being better than M2K.

@RDK: dumb question is dumb

 

[Turbo Ether]

U sound mad <_<

I'm truthfully looking to be educated further on the subject. Never said you were wrong, I just doubt the accuracy of the Battle Point system, and it doesn't help that the arcade version isn't the "complete" version of the game,

Edit: Those japanese link are specifically what you personally use to follow their results?

 

[Omni]

1.) Amount of time spent
2.) Friendlies performance
3.) Tournament performance

what do you mean it's not complete? because the unlockable characters aren't included?

also, the Japanese links update regional tournament results as each pass. A-CHO is one of the most popular regional tournaments that occur, but it is not the only one. however, A-CHO does release results of tournaments even if it is not their own. one of the three sites should have an archive.

i followed the majority of the results over the past 2 years by actually watching the streams either from youtube or nicovideo. arcade tournaments are always recorded and there are a few exceptions where the japanese will hold non-arcade (console) tournament i.e. Gods Garden.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Yes, unlockable characters being excluded = incomplete metagame.

Also, yes, battle points being influenced by factors other than tournament results is questionable.

Btw, why do you exclude the American SF4 metagame, when you reference SF4?

Additionally, why are you suddenly pro-ban?

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Okay, I have no idea what Street Fighter 4 has to do with Meta Knight, so I'll attempt to get this back on track.

Anti-Banners:

Justify this-If you're playing against an opponent who 99% of the time always has a recovery option to get around edge-guarding/edge-hogging, then what's the point of having the tactics in the game if the single character who such a large group of the players use completely overrides a key gameplay element?

Pro-Banners:

Okay, lets say the argument works, and the Brawl Back Room officially declares Meta Knight a completely unfair and broken character, and is not allowed in tournaments. Then what good does it do? If I host a tournament and people play as Meta Knight, will BBR members crash the venue and take all the MK users into custody until other players enter the tournament to take their spot while the MK users are held over in Nintendo prison? (That would actually be pretty funny to watch) It's not as if just by saying "Meta Knight is unfair and is no longer allowed in tournaments" that it'll make anything different, so what kind of reason is there to have the debate, even with a completely valid argument?

Okay, I know the pro-ban one was stupid, but I'm pro-ban, and couldn't think of anything...

P.S. Falcon LULZ

 

[Zankoku]

Yes, unlockable characters being excluded = incomplete metagame.

What if it's the primary metagame over in Japan? Arcade is quite a bit more popular than console for tournaments over there, which is why there was a big deal about SSF4 being console only.

 

[Turbo Ether]

What if it's the primary metagame over in Japan? Arcade is quite a bit more popular than console for tournaments over there, which is why there was a big deal about SSF4 being console only.

Why are we more concerned with the primary metagame in Japan, than the primary metagame in the US?

 

[Omni]

Yes, unlockable characters being excluded = incomplete metagame.

Also, yes, battle points being influenced by factors other than tournament results is questionable.

Btw, why do you exclude the American SF4 metagame, when you reference SF4?

The metagame isn't incomplete. A game without using the unlockables is a metagame itself.

Japan doesn't **** around with BP points. When Mago puts in his card he plays to win. If he felt like BS'ing (which he does from time to time) he removes his card all together (which he has done). The BP points are a great representation of the player power rankings.

I only talk about Japanese more because they exist on a higher plane than the Americans in terms of skill. Since the 1990's, the Americans have been getting spanked by the Japanese in all forms of Street Fighter. Also, the population of Street Fighter 4 players in Japan are overwhelming. Hundreds of arcades that are frequently packed on a daily basis. They are the best community if you want an accurate representation of the most developed metagame in my opinion.

 

[Kewkky]

Pro-Banners:

Okay, lets say the argument works, and the Brawl Back Room officially declares Meta Knight a completely unfair and broken character, and is not allowed in tournaments. Then what good does it do? If I host a tournament and people play as Meta Knight, will BBR members crash the venue and take all the MK users into custody until other players enter the tournament to take their spot while the MK users are held over in Nintendo prison? (That would actually be pretty funny to watch) It's not as if just by saying "Meta Knight is unfair and is no longer allowed in tournaments" that it'll make anything different, so what kind of reason is there to have the debate, even with a completely valid argument?

The SBR-B can't force it to happen, but they CAN recommend that MK should be banned. In the end, a majority of the TOs look at the SBR-B's rules as an outline for their own rules, so the obviously game-breaking rules stay (no items, loser stage>winner character>loser character, stage striking, banned tactics, and of course MK being banned in this scenario), while the easier-to-manipulate rules are changed to their own discretion (stage lists, 8-minute timer, single/double elimination, non-banned tactics being banned, etc)... Also, some SBR members are the ones running the large-scale tourneys, so they themselves might use their own rules, which in turn will make regionals slowly start adapting.

Of course there will be some MK-Allowed tourneys here and there (just like there's MK-Baned tourneys here and there right now, while MK isn't banned), but that's just how things happen.

 

[Turbo Ether]

The metagame isn't incomplete. A game without using the unlockables is a metagame itself.

Japan doesn't **** around with BP points. When Mago puts in his card he plays to win. If he felt like BS'ing (which he does from time to time) he removes his card all together (which he has done). The BP points are a great representation of the player power rankings.

I only talk about Japanese more because they exist on a higher plane than the Americans in terms of skill. Since the 1990's, the Americans have been getting spanked by the Japanese in all forms of Street Fighter. Also, the population of Street Fighter 4 players in Japan are overwhelming. Hundreds of arcades that are frequently packed on a daily basis. They are the best community if you want an accurate representation of the most developed metagame in my opinion.

This is a good response. No argument from me.

Question: Do you think it's fair to completely exclude the American metagame, considering Sagat does receive a lot of hate over here and console characters have been a factor?

 

[Omni]

Question: Do you think it's fair to completely exclude the American metagame, considering Sagat does receive a lot of hate over here?

Not at all. Although I focus on Japan, I have made several examples about the US metagame.

Mainly, how Sagat is hated on the same level as Metaknight if not more. The amount of hate threads that use to be in the Shoryuken forums was riduclous, and there are still a large amount of people who hate Sagat.

I have used Sagat's character dominance and made comparisons with Metaknight's dominance, however, my fellow pro-ban brothers were extremely quick to brush it off as "Smash is another game,".

If you'd like I could tell you more about Sagat, SF4, and how similar our community and metagame is in regards to having a best character. If not, I'll answer any other questions you have about the American SF4 scene.

 

[Turbo Ether]

You are pro-ban and believe that the MK situation is similar to the Sagat situation. Do you also want Sagat banned?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Omni isn't pro-ban.
Stop getting trolled. -.-

 

[RDK]

@RDK: dumb question is dumb

Omni u mad?

 

[RATED]

You are pro-ban and believe that the MK situation is similar to the Sagat situation. Do you also want Sagat banned?

srsly stop the "sagat this" "Street fighter that" is good to take examples from other games , but not to completely twist the "debate" ... also don't try to reply this post with a
"Trying to look cool bcuz I can do pseudointeligent long post " bcuz I won't reply , why? bcuz this post is a opinion.

 

[Turbo Ether]

srsly stop the "sagat this" "Street fighter that" is good to take examples from other games , but not to completely twist the "debate" ... also don't try to reply this post with a
"Trying to look cool bcuz I can do pseudointeligent long post " bcuz I won't reply , why? bcuz this post is a opinion.

I'm not the one that brought Sagat into this debate.

 

[RATED]

I'm not the one that brought Sagat into this debate.

yep I know, the post wasnt totally directed for u, it was just that ur post was the " recent" one regarding that problem so I quoted yours since everyone could know to what I refer. I know there a lot of post regarding Sagat comparison to MK. my bad them if I posted so badly that u missunderstood.

 

[Omni]

You are pro-ban and believe that the MK situation is similar to the Sagat situation. Do you also want Sagat banned?

Not sure. I'd have to look more into it since I'm concentrated on Metaknight right now.

srsly stop the "sagat this" "Street fighter that" is good to take examples from other games , but not to completely twist the "debate" ... also don't try to reply this post with a
"Trying to look cool bcuz I can do pseudointeligent long post " bcuz I won't reply , why? bcuz this post is a opinion.

Trying to look cool bcuz I can do psudointeligent long post.

on a more serious note i am not attempting to compare SF4 with Brawl from a general perspective. what i am saying is that it is healthy and legit to compare qualities and scenarios from competitive fighting games with other competitive fighting games. even when compared, i am not saying "look at SF. brawl needs to look like this" but i make examples by comparing similar character dominance and metagame. it is good information.

 

[RATED]

Not sure. I'd have to look more into it since I'm concentrated on Metaknight right now.



Trying to look cool bcuz I can do psudointeligent long post.

on a more serious note i am not attempting to compare SF4 with Brawl from a general perspective. what i am saying is that it is healthy and legit to compare qualities and scenarios from competitive fighting games with other competitive fighting games. even when compared, i am not saying "look at SF. brawl needs to look like this" but i make examples by comparing similar character dominance and metagame. it is good information.

ok, that's the point that I want to get, comparing things is sane as long as the "point or thing" get twisted with the compared ones. I did post bcuz if the comparison continues to extend ( it can continue but not to grow bigger) it would get twisted sooner or later if it extends.

 

[moyshe]

The metagame isn't incomplete. A game without using the unlockables is a metagame itself.

Japan doesn't **** around with BP points. When Mago puts in his card he plays to win. If he felt like BS'ing (which he does from time to time) he removes his card all together (which he has done). The BP points are a great representation of the player power rankings.

I only talk about Japanese more because they exist on a higher plane than the Americans in terms of skill. Since the 1990's, the Americans have been getting spanked by the Japanese in all forms of Street Fighter. Also, the population of Street Fighter 4 players in Japan are overwhelming. Hundreds of arcades that are frequently packed on a daily basis. They are the best community if you want an accurate representation of the most developed metagame in my opinion.

Yeah but not in brawl. America has the best brawl players in the world ( Canada has 1), although I agree that japan is better than us in a lot of games brawl is not one of them.