Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Gu3r0]

i still think IC does better than falcon

 

[x After Dawn x]

What you think doesn't matter because it's not true.

 

[Cheebs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwDHs6UXgR8

He waveshines sooooo much

 

[ruhtraeel]

Woo, Roy can hold his own against low tiers :-)

 

[Vts]

i still think IC does better than falcon

I'm an IC main and falcon/IC should be tied.

I can see why IC are in 8th place, once u lose your nana your kills from grabs are gone ur basic chain grabs and hand off are gone as well a lot of your power.

your left with good moves but lack of combos and lack of recovery since your recovery is also hindered.

but falcon already has the recovery problem.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As an ICs main as well, I agree with Vts that they should be tied.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Unless ICs start placing above Falcon, I don't see them rising up any higher than they already are any time soon. And the list clearly shows that the MBR agrees because they went through the trouble of making them a tier under Falcon.

 

[Fernandez]

Why is mario higher then luigi?

 

[Vts]

Unless ICs start placing above Falcon, I don't see them rising up any higher than they already are any time soon. And the list clearly shows that the MBR agrees because they went through the trouble of making them a tier under Falcon.

You have 100+ falcon mains to 12 IC mains of the 12 IC mains 4-5 of them place top 10 at 200+ tournaments out placing 90% of the falcons

Fly, Wobbles, Chu have all placed above the falcons at almost every tournament they have gone to.

with anywhere from 10+ falcon mains at 1 tournament to the 1 maybe even 2 IC makes it harder to out place them since there's so many more and some falcons might have had an easier side of the bracket

Since most IC mains don't travel or have problems traveling the best players for our character don't normally get to go to these events.

Fly puts school above smash (like we all should lol)
Wobbles is working and has hard time getting place (stupid texas)
Chu is chu and idk what he is doing
Uberice is in florida and plays the game for fun
I'm just bad

Some stuff people don't really care to look at is how well these players do at tournament since they never go.

Wobbles has beat darkrain at texas tournament, beat zhu at poe, has beaten jman at pound (maybe some other tournament i forget its the tournament he and jman tied for 5th or 7th) and many other big named people but is still counted as a bad player.

Fly has beaten everyone in Cali before

Chu is chu and places well not really playing the game

I lose to no names cus I am a no name.

IC mains are looked down on by this community our character i've heard so many times "doesn't belong" (pika chad says this a lot >< <3), our character counters people's play style.

most people don't like to change styles and they lose cus of it and blame the wrong reasons, if you spend 30 minutes with me i can tell you how to beat basic IC play style.

This community is also to relaxed with it's skill, when is the last time you practice by yourself for more than an hour?

I practiced 4 days ago tech skill for 2 hours, i still mess up simple things like dash dance desyncs which i've spent 10+ hours trying to get right in my free time.

Do you think all the good falcons or good players in general did this?

I know for a fact wobbles practices 5+ hours a week to make sure his movement is good and he has to deal with his temors which makes him mess up simple tech skill by missing buttons and he places well with a character that requires a lot of tech skill.

The tier list should be based of character ability of a human and not tournament placement.

But, if you want results of when an IC has gone to a tournament and there placing compared to the falcons who went i'll do some digging up and show you that falcon and IC both place the same or in favor of IC

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Vts stacking it up.

 

[arbustos]

never mind

 

[tarheeljks]

if you spend 30 minutes with me i can tell you how to beat basic IC play style.

you just made the argument against your character?

 

[Vts]

you just made the argument against your character?

Sure, to be good u must know ur character's weakness and cover them up but once u find it then you can exploit it.

I'm pretty sure if i sat down with a top player they could tell me what they hate the most about there character and how they cover that up weakness or avoid problems.

peach is easily camped so how do peaches cover that up? by either making the opponent feel pressure and force to bad spots or calling there movement and always being aggressive or attempts to camp back to bait you into attacking.

 

[tarheeljks]

Sure, to be good u must know ur character's weakness and cover them up but once u find it then you can exploit it.

I'm pretty sure if i sat down with a top player they could tell me what they hate the most about there character and how they cover that up weakness or avoid problems.

peach is easily camped so how do peaches cover that up? by either making the opponent feel pressure and force to bad spots or calling there movement and always being aggressive or attempts to camp back to bait you into attacking.

right but those things are largely known about other characters. i read it as you saying you could show people basic things they don't know about ic's, which implies a widespread lack of matchup knowledge rather than true character strength, and that may be justification for keeping a character lower than tourney placings suggest (though not necessarily)

 

[Vts]

right but those things are largely known about other characters. i read it as you saying you could show people basic things they don't know about ic's, which implies a widespread lack of matchup knowledge rather than true character strength, and that may be justification for keeping a character lower than tourney placings suggest (though not necessarily)

Well it's kind of just showing how to abuse the AI of nana a lot.

things people tend to ignore, she's dumb as hell watch m2k vs wobbles and u'll see why she is so dumb he kills her so many times with just easy quick edge guards.

IC lose a lot when this happens and very rarely there is stuff that popo can do to save her.

but lack of experience doesn't affect the high lvl play all that much.

look at once again m2k vs wobbles now look in the past years of how many time m2k has played an IC player i believe its a long the line of 3-5 times.

he is really good at the match up somehow and never plays against an IC player

 

[Strong Badam]

So how can the tier list have any validity at all when It's purely based off of a perfect world scenarios, Tech skill vids, and his potential rather than the reality of things? If he is most likely to do well in a tournament then why is he being out placed consistently in major tournaments(minus DGDTJ Which was the first time in 3 prior years a Fox won a Major Tournament).

How well a character does in tournament is a reflection of both that character and the player that uses him. Axe consistently gets 4th-7th at every national he goes to, does that make Pikachu the 4th best character? **** no, it doesn't.

Stop being dumb.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm not even going to read that whole thing vts, I skimmed through it and read things like "I practiced 4 days ago tech skill for 2 hours, i still mess up simple things like dash dance desyncs which i've spent 10+ hours trying to get right in my free time"

Also read strong bad's post because i'm pretty sure i've read that point having to be addressed like 10 times in this topic already.

 

[Vts]

I'm not even going to read that whole thing vts, I skimmed through it and read things like "I practiced 4 days ago tech skill for 2 hours, i still mess up simple things like dash dance desyncs which i've spent 10+ hours trying to get right in my free time"

short i said you have more falcon mains who travel then IC mains who travel

and when an IC main is at a tournament they tend to place better then 90% of the falcon mains or tie with falcon mains.

 

[x After Dawn x]

chu doesn't even ****ing play anymore, i don't think wobbles plays anymore either, and you're still completely ignoring the potential side of the situation. and don't you think that the fact that there are more falcons than ICs tell you something very important that you're missing?

 

[Divinokage]

How can you measure potential anyway? I don't think you can since there are exceptionally strong players with bad character. Which is why you need results in order to create a list and use that as stats.

 

[x After Dawn x]

yes, you do. but it's not the only thing you use to measure a character's validity in tournament. see strong bad's post^

 

[Vts]

chu doesn't even ****ing play anymore, i don't think wobbles plays anymore either, and you're still completely ignoring the potential side of the situation. and don't you think that the fact that there are more falcons than ICs tell you something very important that you're missing?

the potential side? the fact they require more tech skill then the standard character and are dropped from being played?

more falcon mains to IC mains tells me that people don't like to play a harder character or more tech skill character. IC aren't that technical they just require little more practice then other characters.

there's more falcon mains then sheik and peaches does that mean falcons better?

 

[Divinokage]

the potential side? the fact they require more tech skill then the standard character and are dropped from being played?

more falcon mains to IC mains tells me that people don't like to play a harder character or more tech skill character. IC aren't that technical they just require little more practice then other characters.

there's more falcon mains then sheik and peaches does that mean falcons better?

No way, ALL character requires an insane amount of practice in order to be played consistently. People choose characters because maybe they like playing them?

 

[Vts]

No way, ALL character requires an insane amount of practice in order to be played consistently. People choose characters because maybe they like playing them?

Well look at it from a new person's stand point if i showed you cool stuff with IC it would kind of look lame

and if i showed you falcon combos, most lean toward the falcon for the cool factor

cus when u see compare there hand movements u might see the IC doing more tech skill then the falcon to try to pull off something cool.

not looking at high level consistency right now just look at from a stand point of a new comer and seeing stuff like that might make u wanna play a more combo aggressive character

i see there popularity as they found falcon easier to either combo with or move with

like right off the bat you don't need to learn wavedash with falcon, with IC it's there main movement tool since they have terrible traction and slide everywhere. while the falcon can be moving fine the IC is slowly getting there

 

[john!]

why are you trying to have an intelligent conversation with afterdawn lolol

 

[Doser]

No way, ALL characters requires an insane amount of practice in order to be played consistently. People choose characters because maybe they like playing them?

Stop being dumb, no two characters require the same amount of tech skill. Please tell me that ganon takes as much tech skill as fox, and then I'll laugh at you.

He's saying ICs are a very nuanced character, they require a lot of precision to actually be effective as their tier ranking would suggest. Furthermore their play isn't as flashy as Captain Falcon's or the Space Animals' play.

 

[x After Dawn x]

why are you trying to have an intelligent conversation with afterdawn lolol

reminds me of a youtube comment today that read "NO U MAD LOLOL I **** UR MOM AND WE WATCHED A MOVIE L8R **** U SUCK A **** A LONG DONKEY **** I AINT MAD U MAD U SO BTUT HURT LOOK AT U ******TT!!!!11111 ***G!!!111"

looool

 

[Doser]

[ ]-Not Told
[ ]-Told
[ ]-Wow you really got told
[X]- No country for told men

 

[Vts]

why are you trying to have an intelligent conversation with afterdawn lolol

Because i like to hear from views that i might not have viewed it at.

i can see from a lot of point of views but if a view is something that didn't cross my mind i would like to push to see if its really just one sided or not

its all for fun anyways since none of us are in the back room our vote is about as useful as a poopy flavored lolipop.

 

[john!]

Stop being dumb, no two characters require the same amount of tech skill. Please tell me that ganon takes as much tech skill as fox, and then I'll laugh at you.

He's saying ICs are a very nuanced character, they require a lot of precision to actually be effective as their tier ranking would suggest. Furthermore their play isn't as flashy as Captain Falcon's or the Space Animals' play.

people have this subtle notion that all characters are inherently equal. that's why top tier mains think their characters are worse than they are, and low tier mains think their characters are secretly amazing.

ic's are a very underused character, and few people use them even as a secondary. that's why they are simply relegated to their own tier and discussion of them is largely avoided (except during wobbling debates, during which the voices of the pro-wobbling ic players inevitable fail to overcome the weight of "that's the way it's always been" and "wobbling looks gay").

public opinion will not change as long as the ic's have a high initial skill threshold, and as long as people don't pay attention to the innovation that happens on a regular basis in the ic boards, they'll simply dismiss it because it will only really affect them a few times during their tourney careers.

NO U MAD LOLOL I **** UR MOM AND WE WATCHED A MOVIE L8R **** U SUCK A **** A LONG DONKEY **** I AINT MAD U MAD U SO BTUT HURT LOOK AT U ******TT!!!!11111 ***G!!!111

did you compose this yourself? it's a step forward.

Because i like to hear from views that i might not have viewed it at.

i can see from a lot of point of views but if a view is something that didn't cross my mind i would like to push to see if its really just one sided or not

its all for fun anyways since none of us are in the back room our vote is about as useful as a poopy flavored lolipop.

a noble cause, but that's like saying "i want to experience a wide variety of foods" and then eating horse crap for dinner.

 

[x After Dawn x]

copypasted off a jimmy kimmel video. just a tad bit better than "innovation on a regular basis in the ic boards"

 

[Divinokage]

Well look at it from a new person's stand point if i showed you cool stuff with IC it would kind of look lame

and if i showed you falcon combos, most lean toward the falcon for the cool factor

cus when u see compare there hand movements u might see the IC doing more tech skill then the falcon to try to pull off something cool.

not looking at high level consistency right now just look at from a stand point of a new comer and seeing stuff like that might make u wanna play a more combo aggressive character

i see there popularity as they found falcon easier to either combo with or move with

like right off the bat you don't need to learn wavedash with falcon, with IC it's there main movement tool since they have terrible traction and slide everywhere. while the falcon can be moving fine the IC is slowly getting there

I guess so, ICs aren't very exciting to play while Falcon has his moves. So you were saying, because there are more Falcons that they are more likely to place higher? Perhaps.. but at the same time more Falcons = more people know the matchup.. while ICs are more obscure in certain regions and not knowing the matchup also = surprise factor which definitely helps to increase it's ranking. Like Chu's skill back in the day was above most people and no one knew the ICs matchup at all which def contributed to him winning. At the same time, it doesn't mean ICs are better.

Stop being dumb, no two characters require the same amount of tech skill. Please tell me that ganon takes as much tech skill as fox, and then I'll laugh at you.

He's saying ICs are a very nuanced character, they require a lot of precision to actually be effective as their tier ranking would suggest. Furthermore their play isn't as flashy as Captain Falcon's or the Space Animals' play.

Stop being dumb? My point was no matter who you play, if you don't have at least the basics down then you'll fall easily. The degree of getting basics down is obviously different for every character but that doesn't change the fact that you have to be consistent, because you know one fail = punish or death. Especially character with ****ty recoveries, generally as soon as you are off-stage you'll definitely die.. learning to deal with these weaknesses is tough.

 

[x After Dawn x]

especially character with ****ty recoveries, generally as soon as you are off-stage you'll definitely die..

 

[Vts]

I guess so, ICs aren't very exciting to play while Falcon has his moves. So you were saying, because there are more Falcons that they are more likely to place higher? Perhaps.. but at the same time more Falcons = more people know the matchup.. while ICs are more obscure in certain regions and not knowing the matchup also = surprise factor which definitely helps to increase it's ranking. Like Chu's skill back in the day was above most people and no one knew the ICs matchup at all which def contributed to him winning. At the same time, it doesn't mean ICs are better.

Right, kind of like there is a ton of fox and when u see a sheik out of no where and the fox only has marth/falcon/peach practice the result could vary.

The way I also see it as the fox has more chances to improve then while the sheik has fox down and plays the next fox and watched the losing fox strait he might try something else the sheik isn't use to.

There is little to much that factors into this game

I see top level play focus more around adapting then not knowing and losing.

so you could say IC were better against fox in 04 when Chu was doing his stuff but when they started to pick up on new straits that worked on other characters also while the IC haven't learn anything and then fox become god like in 05.

 

[Doser]

Stop being dumb? My point was no matter who you play, if you don't have at least the basics down then you'll fall easily. The degree of getting basics down is obviously different for every character but that doesn't change the fact that you have to be consistent, because you know one fail = punish or death. Especially character with ****ty recoveries, generally as soon as you are off-stage you'll definitely die.. learning to deal with these weaknesses is tough.

Reread your comment and hopefully you will understand how off topic it was. Stop being dumb.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The large amount of Falcon players has a lot to do with his innate coolness. New people are drawn to him because he looks so badass. Have you seen Silent Spectre's fanbase? It's huge. I'm pretty sure there's a bunch of facebook groups for the various top Falcons; the character just sweats swag. You can't deny it. And the swag wants to be played with.

Alright, time to get a bit more serious.

I think Ice Climbers are really more comparable to Jigglypuff in terms of who they appeal to. Only they also demand a lot of technical precision to do their combos (unlike Jigglypuff). Their movement and zoning games are also somewhat awkward and complex. They also require a lot of patience. These are traits that the vast majority of newcomers abhor.

Most newcomers that are willing to put the effort in are far more likely to pick a character that doesn't require so much devotion to be good with. Or so much memorization to do punishes. Particularly if they're trying to get good in a hurry and are attempting to quickly cross the skill barrier that exists between them and older players. This usually pushes them to pick top tiers. If learning time is no issue, they're probably going to be drawn to Fox or Falco on the basis that they're dynamic, flexible, and are marketed to have a lot of room for personal expression. These are not really traits that are automatically useful in a competitive game, mind you, but I don't choose what newcomers like.

That is part of why Ice Climbers aren't really used. There is also a stigma against them, which doesn't help. I personally think the topic of wobbling being unresolved at times adds to this because it makes it unclear whether they will get to use wobbling or not (not having your best throw combo sucks from a competitive standpoint). When the topic does come up, it brings a lot of unnecessary conflict to the community and usually involves a lot of bashing of Ice Climber mains. This adds to the stigma against them, particularly those who defend wobbling.

They're sort of like Jigglypuff in the sense that their design counters a lot of playstyles sort of inherently. You'll get a lot of flack for beating someone considered better than you with Ice Climbers on the basis that they had inexperience or that your style countered the better player's. People are far more likely to consider your wins legitimate if you get them with Falcon or Fox (even if they are better characters). This also adds to those characters' popularity and keeps Ice Climbers from seeing much use.

I also feel Ice Climbers don't have a guiding player or a real textbook style to show to their newcomers; all the top Ice Climbers are pretty different in terms of their approach to the zoning and combat aspects of play. They all go about their business differently and their styles are clearly tailored for their own skills as players. Chu is bare bones basics and focuses purely on fundamentals. Wobbles is so fancy and has at least a million tricks that might kill. Fly will wait for the world to end before he approaches (matchup dependent). The expression of their individual skills comes out so much in their styles. Because the top Ice Climbers have so much variance, it's hard to really give new Ice Climbers a textbook role-model to start from. Again, this isn't entirely necessary for newcomers but I view it as a deterrent. It's nice when you have a player example that does primarily "correct" decisions to learn from.

I think there's a lot of reasons why few people main Ice Climbers.




edit: Ice Climbers aren't a good character, they're two bad ones smushed together.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Just feel like spouting my opinions here. I think Yoshi and Mewtwo should be moved above Roy, Young Link should be moved above Link who should be moved above DK, and Luigi should be moved above Mario. Those are my honest to goodness opinions.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Young Link is better than Link because Armada beat hungrybox with him...?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Luigi is a pretty bad character.

 

[Divinokage]

Luigi is a pretty bad character.

How many times are you going to say that characters are bad. Mix it up!