Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[san.]

I'll just add to what Asdioh said, because I agree with almost all of it.
Something to be aware of is that Ike has a faster horizontal air movement, so an aerial battle will still be a pain, but your attacks can get inside if we're too close to you in the air. Since kirby can't really camp Ike very well as far as I'm aware of, Ike will try to outspace you and out-distance you as much as possible.

If Ike has distance, his aerials are very hard to get around. Ike would use fair at a longer range and nair at mid-range. The kirby must try to attack the weakspots in his guard, which would be the bottom corner, where his hitbox reaches last. Kirby's bair has enough range & priority to get inside that guard.

When juggling Ike, be aware of nair, because it has a very good range, and goes all around him as well as being faster than all of his other aerials.

I disagree with the gimping, though. If Ike fast falls below the stage and tries to reverse aether, kirby can't really do too much to gimp him, especially if the Ike conserves his jumps. You can definitely do things to mess with his aether, but I don't think it's necessarily enough to gimp him.

 

[Teh Brettster]

I don't find jabs useful in this match-up at all, to be honest, other than perhaps a quick jab->utilt or something of the sort. Kirby is so floaty and so small that he'll never be hit by enough jabs to make great use of them.
I've also tried jabbing him on the ground and-- completely whiffing. He ducks under jab with some of his attack animations and with his crouch animation.

I just use aerials and space them a ton. Otherwise, I feel pretty unsafe against Kirbz.

 

[Ladybug]

Dash attacks work wonders against all of the Ikes I've played cause of how fast they are. Just don't do them so much that they read you can can stop it.

 

[T1MMY]

Kirby > Ike.
Takez that!

 

[Asdioh]

I don't find jabs useful in this match-up at all, to be honest, other than perhaps a quick jab->utilt or something of the sort. Kirby is so floaty and so small that he'll never be hit by enough jabs to make great use of them.
I've also tried jabbing him on the ground and-- completely whiffing. He ducks under jab with some of his attack animations and with his crouch animation.

This is true, Ike's Jab in this matchup is more of a way to get Kirby away from him while on the ground. All he really has is Jab, Grab, and Counter, which requires prediction.

I just use aerials and space them a ton. Otherwise, I feel pretty unsafe against Kirbz.

That's pretty much what you should do. When Ike's at a distance, the only thing Kirby can do is Final Cutter, which has huge ending lag and can be punished by a shield and Dash Attack, or something. Kirby's best option is to run in and powershield Nair/Fairs, and grab, while watching out for the inevitable Jab that follows up the Nair (which most Ikes do to make you gtfo if you happen to run in and shield)

Once Kirby grabs though, Ike can be in trouble. I personally love "chaingrabbing" with downthrow because there's not a whole lot Ike can do when he's in the air trying to land and you're on the ground chasing him. He can aerial, or airdodge, into the ground, both of which can be beaten by shieldgrabbing.

Also one thing that sucks about gimping Ike is if you get stuck in Aether and he takes you down with him
I like using Stone against him if he has to recover predictably, otherwise Bair and Dair work pretty well. You can also just wait on the edge, because Ike's ledge attack sucks, and he doesn't have a ton of options to recover, besides Aethering through the stage hoping to hit you.

 

[Guilhe]

Kirby > Ike.
Takez that!

Amusing.

This is true, Ike's Jab in this matchup is more of a way to get Kirby away from him while on the ground. All he really has is Jab, Grab, and Counter, which requires prediction.

And boosted pivot grab. He gets a good slide, so it's a good move for retreating. Also, he has a Bthrow -> DA combo which can kill by 100% if the DA is fresh (it should be) so be careful. He has a chainthrow infinite at walls too.

That's pretty much what you should do. When Ike's at a distance, the only thing Kirby can do is Final Cutter, which has huge ending lag and can be punished by a shield and Dash Attack, or something. Kirby's best option is to run in and powershield Nair/Fairs, and grab, while watching out for the inevitable Jab that follows up the Nair (which most Ikes do to make you gtfo if you happen to run in and shield)

Once Kirby grabs though, Ike can be in trouble. I personally love "chaingrabbing" with downthrow because there's not a whole lot Ike can do when he's in the air trying to land and you're on the ground chasing him. He can aerial, or airdodge, into the ground, both of which can be beaten by shieldgrabbing.

Also one thing that sucks about gimping Ike is if you get stuck in Aether and he takes you down with him
I like using Stone against him if he has to recover predictably, otherwise Bair and Dair work pretty well. You can also just wait on the edge, because Ike's ledge attack sucks, and he doesn't have a ton of options to recover, besides Aethering through the stage hoping to hit you.

He also has the ledgehop Fair and Uair, the last one can hit pretty far at PS1 due to the format of the ledge. Don’t let your guard down.

 

[Mr. Doom]

All Kirby needs to do is duck or shield. Ike won't be able to jab him, unless the two are on a slope and Kirby is higher.

I have several videos (some of them are good, and others are just plain horrible) of Ike vs Kirby, but I haven't uploaded them yet. When I do upload them, I'll link them to you.

 

[Asdioh]

He also has the ledgehop Fair and Uair, the last one can hit pretty far at PS1 due to the format of the ledge. Don’t let your guard down.

This is true, but Kirby's Dair can be deadly; if you hit with even one part of the multihit attack and Ike is at a decent %, he can't recover since he already used his air jump. x_x



So I just played some friendlies on wifi and Pikachu > Ike D:

 

[Guilhe]

I beg to differ, Kirby’s Dair isn’t much strong and Aether goes very high. Dying from a spike at stage level shouldn’t happen until very high percentages.

 

[momochuu]

I think the only advantage Ike could possibly have in this matchup is his KO ability and the spacing of his longer range attacks.


Also, I smell a nice game of Super Theorycraft Bros. coming up.

 

[Guilhe]

I think the only advantage Ike could possibly have in this matchup is his KO ability and the spacing of his longer range attacks.


Also, I smell a nice game of Super Theorycraft Bros. coming up.

How about damage racking? Ike can do 20% out of a jab 1, 1, 2, 3 sequence and 25% from Nair to jab 1, 2, and 3. Any other attack not mentioned besides his pummels and throws inflict two digit damages. How much your approaches and combos (especially that chainthrow) inflict?

 

[Berserker.]

The ganondorf match up is only 60:40 Kirby? It would have been 70:30 Kirby
Why are we discussing and discovering more even and unfavorable match ups than good match ups. It's like Kirby having not so good match ups for an A- tier and his only advantages are some C to F tiers or something. He even has an equal match up with an F tier (Ness) and only a 60:40 favor against Ganondorf (What!?!? 60:40 Kirby only should 70:30)

 

[§leepy God]

♪ What a coincidence, I was just facing Viper on with Ike vs Kirby, he should really not underestimate my Ike. †

♪ Kirby can **** Ike, but don't get your hopes up when you see Ike, there's a chance that an Ike will destroy your Kirby or bring an up chill battle. I just hate how Stone can **** up Ike's Aether when he's coming back on Final Destination, (stupid stage lips), as for this match up, Ike has to play defensively, because Kirby's grabs is a pain in the ***. >.< †

♪ It is strange, Ike along with Zelda mains are losing a lot of confidence on their character now days, that's why you won't see much of Ike unless it's friendlies mostly. †

 

[Guilhe]

♪ It is strange, Ike along with Zelda mains are losing a lot of confidence on their character now days, that's why you won't see much of Ike unless it's friendlies mostly. †

Hey, speak for yourself.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Sleepy's Ike might be Silven's Ike in disguise. T_T ☆

 

[Kewkky]

The ganondorf match up is only 60:40 Kirby? It would have been 70:30 Kirby
Why are we discussing and discovering more even and unfavorable match ups than good match ups. It's like Kirby having not so good match ups for an A- tier and his only advantages are some C to F tiers or something. He even has an equal match up with an F tier (Ness) and only a 60:40 favor against Ganondorf (What!?!? 60:40 Kirby only should 70:30)

I know. They say it's because Kirby's a mediocre character, and I am beyond frustrated with that stupid *** lie. Just because THEY think he's mediocre doesn't make him worse than he really is... It's like, people who fight over MK not being the best, or Snake not being 2nd best: those are opinions... BIASED, subjective opinions that depend fully on your experience as a Kirby mainer.

If Kirby goes down to C tier because of this LIE! mindset. I will be frustrated... But since no one cares and everyone ends up putting a ratio 10 points lower than what should be given as Kirby's advantage/disadvantage (50:50 instead of 60:40, or 40:60 instead of 50:50, for example...), I don't doubt that people will KEEP spreading that mindset.

On-Topic:

I beg to differ, Kirby’s Dair isn’t much strong and Aether goes very high. Dying from a spike at stage level shouldn’t happen until very high percentages.

Funniest thing I have read right now... "Kirby's dair isn't dangerous vs Ike, we can recover with upB". LIES! How can you SAY that! Have you even played a GOOD Kirby? Has that GOOD Kirby dair'd you offstage? How can you survive a dair>footstool? Do you know how EASY it is to chain those two? NO WAY will you be able to make it back if you use your 2nd jump, and even if you don't use it it's STILL a very dangerous situation, since a well-planned hug on the ledge, and a slow get-up decision will kill your Ike no matter what you say! Not like Ike can stall offstage until our invincibility frames to get out, a dair WILL kill you guys... Surviving that once or twice doesn't mean it won't work, it means there was a screw up on Kirby's part: he could've edgehogged after the footstool depending on how low the Ike is, or he could just go for another dair>footstool and finish the job, while all you can do is upB and hope you knock us off the ledge..

Whatever to the ratio. I know how they work for me, and that's all that I'm going to say here in this MU till who knows when.

 

[Asdioh]

I wasn't talking about Dairing offstage, I was talking about like, short hop Dairing into the stage if you think he'll try to jump and aerial onto the stage. It should come out faster than most of his aerials, and hit him with one of the multihit attacks, sending him down.


On-Topic:

 

[Kewkky]

Yes, I mad. How many more times will the Kirby mainers say we have even and disadvantaged MUs until you guys finally decide on an advantage, on an ACTUAL advantaged MU? How can you guys prefer talking about "Super Theoryfighter Bros" than actual happenings in a match? How many times, for example, has an Ike survived offstage dairs, and how many times have they died? Theory isn't something I'm against, but when people would much rather do that, than discuss how matcups would ACTUALLY happen un a tourney match, and decide that it's how they should rate the MUs, AND THEN say that it's because the character is mediocre, I have to start wondering just HOW good the other Kirby mains are.



... No, I'm not really angry, I'm just emphasizing letters so people actually read them, and so they know I'm serious. Otherwise, they'll shrug off what I say.

 

[Pink murder]

Whoa, this took a wrong turn somewhere...
Maybe we should get back on topic..

Ike has good range and great knock back, and if an Ike predicts you, expect to be punished harshly. I fought an Ike today, and I don't know how many times I was lured into a Fair >_>. But overall, our grabs own Ike, particularly Dthrow. I was surprised how many chains I got with Dthrow alone. Ike really doesn't have many options in that position.

P.S- I don't know who wouldn't read your posts Kewkky. You always have something good to say.



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[Guilhe]

☆ Sleepy's Ike might be Silven's Ike in disguise. T_T ☆

Oh, should I join him in his sorrow? I don’t think so, I’m really satisfied with my Ike performance.

Er... Sorry Kenwky? Me and Asdioh were talking about Ike getting spiked near the stage, from a interrupted ledgejump, offstage he would die surely. I don't know how strong Kirby Spike really is, but to Ike is really easy to survive a fresh Falco spike and return by landing on the stage. Not that it is really important anyway, how about we discuss the damage racking issue? I think Ike can rack damage more quickly than Kirby. Note: I THINK. What do YOU guys think?

 

[TLMSheikant]

I think Kirby ***** Ike. Ike has spacing tools like fair, nair and jab. But they can only hold kirby so much, and once Kirby enters...its bad for ike VERY bad. At least if the kirby is like kewk's :S. I say its 60-40 kirby.

 

[Pink murder]

I think Ike can rack damage more quickly than Kirby.

Whaaa?

No way, I think Kirby racks up more damage a lot faster. If you guys get grabbed, you're screwed. Plus our Tilts and aerials can easily string together and rack up damage on Ike's heavyish physique.


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[Berserker.]

Kirby's spike can start giving moderately strong knockback when Mario is 60%. If Mario can get spiked well at 60%, expect Ike to get spiked at around 90%-100% and since Kirby can rack up damage, Ike won't be saying "You won't get any sympathy from me"

I don't know how strong Kirby Spike really is, but to Ike is really easy to survive a fresh Falco spike and return by landing on the stage.

Kirby's dair is a multi hit attack, Falco's isn't so when Ike air dodges or whatever, Kirby's dair is still attacking after all those air dodge frames that Ike did, he'll be attacked by the left over hits of Kirby's dair.

Ike has good range and great knock back, and if an Ike predicts you, expect to be punished harshly. I fought an Ike today, and I don't know how many times I was lured into a Fair >_>. But overall, our grabs own Ike, particularly Dthrow. I was surprised how many chains I got with Dthrow alone. Ike really doesn't have many options in that position.

What are the possible attacks asides from fair that can punish Kirby? Well anyway since Ike has slow ground combat, you can also punish him (Watch out for fair)

 

[Pink murder]

Another option is to use stone. Ike's recovery is extremely predictable.


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[Kewkky]

Sorry about the misunderstanding then, heh... I understood that someone said that Ike won't be dying from a dair spike, and considering how many MUs other mainers have said that and Kirby mainers agreed to that, guess I just said what I wanted to saw without thinking twice about it.






... Still, the MU thing still stands.

Kirby's dair is a multi hit attack, Falco's isn't so when Ike air dodges or whatever, Kirby's dair is still attacking after all those air dodge frames that Ike did, he'll be attacked by the left over hits of Kirby's dair.

Plus, our spike gives us a guaranteed footstool on any character if we time it well (as in, not mash the jump button), making it deadlier than Falco's dair... And we can afford to do it offstage, unlike Falco who SD's if he does.

... And Kirby racks up damage WAY faster, however Ike has the chance to kill faster with his powerful tilts (your smashes can be punished on reaction, and we can aircamp them as well)... But we can kill very quickly too (fsmash), as well as assure a kill if we knock you far enough at almost any %s.

 

[Guilhe]

How much damage does the grab combo inflict? It works until which percentages?

 

[Pink murder]

Which grab combo? There are a lot of variations.

You guys can probably escape Fthrow -> Uair, but Dthrow -> Utilt will own you.
If a successful chain or string is pulled off from Dthrow -> Utilt (including chasing and re-grabbing), then I'd say around 35-45%, and that's assuming the Ike has good DI..


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[Berserker.]

How about a combo like u tilt-> u tilt-> bair? Can it be easily DI out of?

 

[Pink murder]

If Ike is at low percentages, than no. But Utilt->Utilt->Bair is an understatement. Kirby can get a couple more Utilts in there than that, but I'm not sure exactly how many.

If he's at mid+ percentages, then probably. Although IMO Ike is easy to predict, and I can usually get a free grab when he lands.


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[Guilhe]

Thank you, I've got no more questions.

 

[A1lion835]

This talk of Kirby using throws reminds me of something.

Ike should not be trying to attack Kirby out of dthrow. This is one of the most common responses, and even a mediocre Kirby should shield and regrab for another dthrow. You're still in a bad position after you get out, but doing something like a fair or dair is just screwing yourself.

If Ike is at high %'s, a (short) dash->reverse hammer is an awesome KO'er.

 

[Pink murder]

Hmm. I guess the discussion is done. So what's the match-up?

I'd say its around 55-45 Kirby or 60-40 Kirby.

EDIT: What do you mean by a "short" dash?


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[Berserker.]

60:40 Kirby sounds more proper, it's time Kirby has an advantage MU

 

[Pink murder]

Ok, I agree with 60-40.


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[TLMSheikant]

Kirby is so underestimated in this board :/. But yeah, 60-40 sounds right.

 

[Pink murder]

Great! Shall we move on to the next character?

I think we should discuss wolf, or re-discuss Lucas.


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[Guilhe]

Sorry but how 60:40 sounds right? If you’re using the Praxis matchup ratio methodology that would imply that Kirby has a distinct advantage over Ike. But how, if the Ike player spaces correctly he cuts Kirby options to Final cutter (and sometimes not even that) and the jab is such a formidable response to your grab at close range? As I see it, Ike holds the advantage for as long as he is on stage. I concede that Kirby is very capable at gimping with attacks such as Drill, Stone and Shallow; But what good is that for if you can’t consistently push him off-stage? Not much.

 

[san.]

How would kirby land a dair if Ike tries to recover low and fast with a reverse aether? If Ike dies by stoning his aether, he should've died by then anyways. Other than that, it is just an annoyance (Ike is used to getting hit out of aether anyways)

 

[Kewkky]

Sorry but how 60:40 sounds right? If you’re using the Praxis matchup ratio methodology that would imply that Kirby has a distinct advantage over Ike. But how, if the Ike player spaces correctly he cuts Kirby options to Final cutter (and sometimes not even that) and the jab is such a formidable response to your grab at close range? As I see it, Ike holds the advantage for as long as he is on stage. I concede that Kirby is very capable at gimping with attacks such as Drill, Stone and Shallow; But what good is that for if you can’t consistently push him off-stage? Not much.

Ike's spacing is not flawless; Kirby can reset the spacing distance with a simple shielddash and start a string, ending in a bair or ftilt to knock you offstage and in a disadvantaged position. Good spacing will only do so much, and we all know the game doesn't revolve around spacing... Truth be told, Ike's spacing is flawed since his best spacing moves can only be done once out of a full/shorthop, leaving lots of time for Kirby to rush in and punish accordingly.

If both a top-level Kirby and a top-level Ike know the MU to perfection, Kirby will be winning out a LOT more matches than Ike will. Us being lightweight doesn't compensate for your lack of attack speed and overabundance of predictability on your best KO options... A single successful bait will lead into a world of pain for Ike, possibly even a whole stock in a single sitting.

 

[Pink murder]

Kewkky pretty much got it.

Ike's moves are slow and predictable, giving us a lot of time to go in and punish.


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