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A boosted pivot grab will solve the shieldgrab or dash attack problem. And shield dash is reciprocal as well, I don't know how Kirby will fare any better than Ike, care to explain?Ike's spacing is not flawless; Kirby can reset the spacing distance with a simple shielddash and start a string, ending in a bair or ftilt to knock you offstage and in a disadvantaged position. Good spacing will only do so much, and we all know the game doesn't revolve around spacing... Truth be told, Ike's spacing is flawed since his best spacing moves can only be done once out of a full/shorthop, leaving lots of time for Kirby to rush in and punish accordingly.
Predictability is mostly player dependable. The fact is that Ike does have lots of lag in most of his killing moves (he has some lag friendly killing moves by the other hand) but he has killing moves for practically any given situation and KOs at a variety of directions, which only adds to the unpredictability factor. For example, he can kill out of a jab (Utilt, Bair, grab), out of a grab (Bthrow -> DA), out of a juggle or landing (Uair, Usmash, Utilt), out of a ledgeguard (Fair, Ftilt), out of nowhere (Fsmash, Ftilt, spiking)… A single bait can spell a world of pain for Kirby, possibly even a whole stock in a single sitting.If both a top-level Kirby and a top-level Ike know the MU to perfection, Kirby will be winning out a LOT more matches than Ike will. Us being lightweight doesn't compensate for your lack of attack speed and overabundance of predictability on your best KO options... A single successful bait will lead into a world of pain for Ike, possibly even a whole stock in a single sitting.
A boosted pivot grab will solve the shieldgrab or dash attack problem. And shield dash is reciprocal as well, I don't know how Kirby will fare any better than Ike, care to explain?
As for the match revolving around spacing, I believe it does. Spacing determine the options your character has at the given moment, the options available determine if your character is in an advantageous or disadvantageous position, advantages and disadvantages determines the result of the match.
Predictability is mostly player dependable. The fact is that Ike does have lots of lag in most of his killing moves (he has some lag friendly killing moves by the other hand) but he has killing moves for practically any given situation and KOs at a variety of directions, which only adds to the unpredictability factor. For example, he can kill out of a jab (Utilt, Bair, grab), out of a grab (Bthrow -> DA), out of a juggle or landing (Uair, Usmash, Utilt), out of a ledgeguard (Fair, Ftilt), out of nowhere (Fsmash, Ftilt, spiking)… A single bait can spell a world of pain for Kirby, possibly even a whole stock in a single sitting.
Yes, I am assuming a neutral position. As for spacing, it’s one of its purposes is to limit your opponent’s options and better yours, so you can respond more accordingly, as you never know for sure what your opponent is going to do. Neglecting spacing is neglecting the importance of positioning your character, which is very important in fighting games, sports, dating and crossing streets.[FONT="][/FONT]
That's assuming Ike is standing still. We're going to punish when you initiate a laggy attack and miss and/or we block it. Ike can't do anything during his lagging frames, so we can go in for the grab. Unless your saying that your playstyle is to sit there and wait. In that case, we probably won't approach with a grab or dash attack in the first place.
I don't think spacing is everything. If you know what your opponent is going to do, then you can act accordingly and punish.
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[FONT="]If you’re talking about the jab strings you can only escape by jumping, Ike will have already recovered from the lag when you come back down. The Bthrow -> DA is a true combo.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
Remember who you're dealing with. Kirby is light, meaning he can escape many of those strings with ease. And what happens when you whiff a string?
BOOM
Punished.
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Yes, I am assuming a neutral position. As for spacing, it’s one of its purposes is to limit your opponent’s options and better yours, so you can respond more accordingly, as you never know for sure what your opponent is going to do. Neglecting spacing is neglecting the importance of positioning your character, which is very important in fighting games, sports, dating and crossing streets.
[FONT="]If you’re talking about the jab strings you can only escape by jumping, Ike will have already recovered from the lag when you come back down. The Bthrow -> DA is a true combo.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
What about shielddash>ftilt, or shielddash>bair? Both of them have some real good range, and should be hitting you before you land if we powershield your attacks... Which, assuming the Kirby knows the MU and all of Ike's moves, shouldn't be hard due to the startup and movement you'll be doing meanwhile (sh backwards while fairing/nairing).A boosted pivot grab will solve the shieldgrab or dash attack problem. And shield dash is reciprocal as well, I don't know how Kirby will fare any better than Ike, care to explain?
Nope, spacing is not what matches are about. A single well-played shield (even more so, a powershield) would destroy all means of spacing if the aerial is slow on startup and endlag. On characters like MK, we can't do this... But on characters like Ike, who can only do one attack out of a jump, we can capitalize accordingly. What good is spacing, if the only thing you can hope to do is scare your opponent away, when if the opponent has good OoS options, they could shield and rush in to attack?As for the match revolving around spacing, I believe it does. Spacing determine the options your character has at the given moment, the options available determine if your character is in an advantageous or disadvantageous position, advantages and disadvantages determines the result of the match.
See, it's nice that you're listing the attacks you can use to kill Kirby, but whats the EFFICIENCY OF KILLING for such attacks? Some have such horrible start-ups and are simply too predictable to name as a reliable kill move (fsmash, usmash, bair, spikes)... Remember that Kirby isn't a normal character, we have multiple jumps to stall out all of your attacks, as well as aircamping abilities to bait you into commiting to a decision that would be unsafe if missed, then punish accordingly (possibly starting with a dair).Predictability is mostly player dependable. The fact is that Ike does have lots of lag in most of his killing moves (he has some lag friendly killing moves by the other hand) but he has killing moves for practically any given situation and KOs at a variety of directions, which only adds to the unpredictability factor. For example, he can kill out of a jab (Utilt, Bair, grab), out of a grab (Bthrow -> DA), out of a juggle or landing (Uair, Usmash, Utilt), out of a ledgeguard (Fair, Ftilt), out of nowhere (Fsmash, Ftilt, spiking)…
Not really, since Ike can't combo as easily as Kirby (and I don't mean strings), and we can end our combos with a strong attack to knock you far enough to not be able to retaliate (as well as attempt to get you offstage for a little edgeguarding). Ike can only smack us with a jab/grab, which barely have follow-ups and would only do so much damage compared to our options (grab combos at 0% would mean a minimum of 30% for Ike, and depending on the location and choice of attacks from the player, it could be worse).A single bait can spell a world of pain for Kirby, possibly even a whole stock in a single sitting.
Teach me how to get my senses as fine-tuned as yours, O Mighty One!Also, I smell a nice game of Super Theorycraft Bros. coming up.
All the MUs, so we can make it a project instead of a separate discussion supplement.
That sounds like a great idea.
But wait, after discussing each character or after we finish all the MU's?
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Lucas? Aren't they doing us? It'd probably be productive.
I see I’m just holding your guys back so, in a shortened form, I believe Ike’s aerials aren’t completely ruined by shieldgrab to the point Ike loses advantage in spacing. Because unless you’re carrying some ground momentum, the time for you to dash + grab is more than enough for Ike to recover from the landing lag.But we already know how the discussion is going to be:
"Ike can space and attack if you approach"
"A smart Kirby won't just run into your attacks"
"We have long range yo you don't need to approach for us to hit you"
"Kirby will shield your attack and counter with a quick tilt or grab"
"Ike can just boost pivot grab"
"Wait, wasn't Ike in the air just now?
*repeat the cycle*
... Or something of the sort. Unless someone says something incredible that the one on the other side of the argument doesn't know of, the discussion is never going to end... Usually, in MUs, we all just agree on a ratio if we're bored and wanna move on, or if no one else wants to keep arguing.
Just a quick question my friend.I see I’m just holding your guys back so, in a shortened form, I believe Ike’s aerials aren’t completely ruined by shieldgrab to the point Ike loses advantage in spacing. Because unless you’re carrying some ground momentum, the time for you to dash + grab is more than enough for Ike to recover from the landing lag.
I concede that trying to punish Kirby on landing is a bad idea, still Ike has Bair, Utilt, DA and Ftilt as reliable killers, Ike has no trouble killing.
That's why the ratio seems to me higher than it actually is.
Fim. The rest is up to you guys.
Wolf's F-smash is best used as a punisher due to its huge range. If a wolf just throws it out randomly then he will probably be the one getting punished. Wolf will probably get most of his kills with F-air, D-smash and B-air(if it happens to be fresh).I might be thinking Kirby is heavier than he is, but doesn't Wolf fsmash like take forever to kill with? Besides, the second hit is very tricky to land on someone who knows the MU, unless spaced, at which it point becomes telegraphed.
Wolf dsmash though is a beast kill move.