Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[Lord Viper]

☆ The main reason I call this match up because there is a good amount of Kirby mains that has trouble fighting Sheik and I wanted to discuss this match up, sorry for that. But anyways, I play Sheik nearly all the time, most of the time with Ness, but the second most with Kirby. Kirby's tilts and grabs are real helpful in this match up, just make sure you don't fall for a running Sheik's trap, (for example if Sheik is running and Kirby is chasing her, the chances are that Sheik will use her needles, trick grab you, or try to punish you with a Smash Attack if you chase her recklessly). Over all, Kirby shouldn't have trouble with this match up, just make sure you know how to fight Sheik, because experiences with a character can lead to a tough potion. >.< ☆

☆ 60/40 Kirby if you know how to fight Sheik, 55/45 Kirby if you rarely fight Sheik, IMO. ☆

 

[A1lion835]

The fthrow combo doesn't work on sheik. Because of her hurtbox shape, a buffered uair doesn't hit her out of an fthrow, and she can jump away by the time we can uair her. Also, quick note, if you get 6 needles with her power, then lose the power without using them (either by hi or having it hit out of you), the next time you get her power you will have 6 needles and not glow.

Edit: Grayclover and Kewkky got to the fthrow thing before me.

Lucario vs. Kirby is 45:55 in lucario's favor, I think for stages, 45:55-50:50 Kirby's favor on SV, 50:50 on BF, and 55:45, maaaaybe 60:40 (I highly doubt this until further research on a few things has proven positive) on FD, if you have YI (which I don't in my region), or lylat (same thing as well, both are CP), YI is 60:40 Lucario, Lylat is 45:55 Kirby's favor.
As for sheik, I can see sheik being at a slight-solid disadvantage (55-60 Kirby favor). Then again it's probably depending on how well Kirby can outrange/limit her damaging options, which I'm sure is definitely doable.

Thanks for the ratings, but what makes it like that? What makes smashville good for Kirby, and who is FD in favor of? Also, you only have 3 neutrals? O_o And how would you rate PS1 as a Kirby stage?

 

[rvkevin]

Wouldn't Kirby want the shortest stage against Lucario to favor gimps...And you'd want Lucario to die as early as possible so I would favor SV as Kirby's best neutral against him.

 

[A1lion835]

Edit: Ack, whoops. Ignore this.

 

[jiovanni007]

☆ The main reason I call this match up because there is a good amount of Kirby mains that has trouble fighting Sheik and I wanted to discuss this match up, sorry for that. But anyways, I play Sheik nearly all the time, most of the time with Ness, but the second most with Kirby. Kirby's tilts and grabs are real helpful in this match up, just make sure you don't fall for a running Sheik's trap, (for example if Sheik is running and Kirby is chasing her, the chances are that Sheik will use her needles, trick grab you, or try to punish you with a Smash Attack if you chase her recklessly). Over all, Kirby shouldn't have trouble with this match up, just make sure you know how to fight Sheik, because experiences with a character can lead to a tough potion. >.< ☆

☆ 60/40 Kirby if you know how to fight Sheik, 55/45 Kirby if you rarely fight Sheik, IMO. ☆

Imma let u finish, but kwekky makes some of the best MU analyses of all time...ALL TIME!!!

 

[phi1ny3]

The fthrow combo doesn't work on sheik. Because of her hurtbox shape, a buffered uair doesn't hit her out of an fthrow, and she can jump away by the time we can uair her. Also, quick note, if you get 6 needles with her power, then lose the power without using them (either by hi or having it hit out of you), the next time you get her power you will have 6 needles and not glow.

Edit: Grayclover and Kewkky got to the fthrow thing before me.



Thanks for the ratings, but what makes it like that? What makes smashville good for Kirby, and who is FD in favor of? Also, you only have 3 neutrals? O_o And how would you rate PS1 as a Kirby stage?

oops, sorry. SV + BF are arguably the best for Kirby to maximize on a smaller stage size + platforms, which nerfs AS camping + lucario's air game a bit with the platform placement, also makes Kirby's own pressure game a bit better. FD has long boundaries, no platforms, and allows wallclinging (while not unpunishable, it's always good to maximize recovery options), and makes for good AS camping (although I really hate the word "camping" for a projectile like AS). It's pretty much lucario's best neutral besides YI (if it's allowed). As for PS1, Lucario gets wallcling, the platforms are set in a decent way for lucario, but Kirby gets AWESOME NINJA SPIKEZ0RZ. 0-100 Kirby's favor.
jk, in all seriousness, I'd consider this a 50:50-55:45 Lucario's favor, although it really depends on which transformations come up.
Blame OR TO's, they are really conservative on Neutrals, but let things like Green Greens in their CPs.

Wouldn't Kirby want the shortest stage against Lucario to favor gimps...And you'd want Lucario to die as early as possible so I would favor SV as Kirby's best neutral against him.

Gimps are hard to come by at high levels of play, you have to deal with A: getting him off (lucario in this MU has really safe attack options while onstage, t1mmy never gimped me or CLU7CH like ever in a serious match), and B: being out ranged by aerials + a good projectile to help give safe recovery, and a great second jump (unless Lucario gets lucky aerial hammered in the second hit with the rediculous horizontal trajectory, a good lucario will hardly need ES, although Kirby's dair + bair can be problematic if he doesn't do survival DI and ends up recovering from below) + DI. Gimping is really something to be actually considered only if they're like Link (which can still have some good options esp. with survival DI), tether recovery chars(Zamus is another story, she's pretty decent at recovering actually), or if you're playing against MK. If any other character gets gimped, it's usually their fault for not maximizing on their options or being stupid with DI. Still, smaller stage = better control for Kirby + able to kill Lucario faster which is vital considering the mechanics of the MU.
On a side note, Lucario is able to traverse BF and SV from underneath the stage from one edge to the other. Not really useful, but an option if lucario still has second jump.

 

[Kewkky]

Put it as 45:55 Lucario's. It's nearly even, plus I've always thought it wasn't one of Kirby's best MUs because Lucario has thise disjoints of his in the moves he mostly uses for damage racking... We can win all the matches we want against a Lucario player, but it's going to be hard getting a 3stock off of him thanks to his good traits (disjoints, damage multiplier, ability to shoot a projectile [even if it's not a great one] and kill with it)... We might get in there, but it's not hard for him to get us off of him.

 

[phi1ny3]

Plus like I said, 55:45 is hardly disadvantaged. A character who knows a trick or two more can overcome the weaknesses easily. It's partially why I don't like the number system (except for statistics) partially many get butt-hurt over the word "disadvantaged", when in reality, anything in the 45:55-55:45 is "even" by all means.
Speaking of which, I realized how tough falco is for lucario, and I went from 55:45 advantaged to 45:55 disadvantaged recently. The moment falco decides to play a fist fight, lucario is going to win, but if he camps lucario hard, lucario is too slow to keep up and will get chipped.

 

[choknater]

at first glance, i think kirby would be advantaged against sheik simply because his movement is way better and he can easily get bair/dair edge guards

but sheik's on stage and ground game is pretty good, needles and such. like whenever u land with a bair and miss, u can eat some fully charged needles. u kinda have to approach sheik from a diagonal angle, but sheik running around a lot can make that difficult. its a spacing game, kirby has more power and combos i think though. sheik just has a speed advantage over all

i would say 55:45 kirby or 50:50

since we are on the kirby boards, i bet u guys will conclude with 60:40 or 55:45 anyway

but im a sheik main and i **** so im gonna **** kirbys anyway yayuhz

 

[stealth3654]

Kirby has his swallow gimp thing on Sheik. Kirby also has more range in his moves and more than likely more priority. If Kirby copies Sheik's special, he gets a needle storm at practically ground level. Needle shield poke?!

Even though Kirby has his back air and tricks against Sheik, I still say the match-up is 55/45 Kirby.

 

[-Mars-]

I used to think this matchup was terrible for Sheik until recently. 55-45 Kirby.....maybe even closer to even. Sheik has problems dealing with bair but like Chok said her speed makes it not too much of a problem. We can also punish bairs with DACUS, needles, dash attack. Kirby's grab strings are pretty ****. Kirby also does a lot of bad things to Sheiks recovery.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, if some of your guys are saying "Kirby can do a lot of bad things to Sheik's recovery", wouldn't that put us in an advantage?

I mean, think about it... What's better: Damage from Sheik to Kirby, or a stock from Kirby to Sheik? And it's not like it's going to be hard getting an inhale off... Sheik's ground game lacks range (except needles, and from mid range to long range can be shielded) so Kirby's inhale can outprioritize most of her moves if we try it near an edge, then jump off, footstool > dair and the game is over for you guys. That's a pretty bad disadvantage... And we can literally inhale you offstage if we want to be flashy and overkill, after the inhale break your stock is ours.

Everywhere else, Sheik can do decent in the MU, goes OK with whatever Kirby can throw at her. Offstage, we literally destroy you. Sounds like an advantaged matchup to me.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Kirby can hurt our recovery, but his kill moves put us in a good position to recover.
Seriously though, whats KO moves do you have that send us down?
We can easily SDI/DI to the upper corner of FD> Dair> Vanish> grab the ledge on starting frames of Vanish.
We also out range you can unless you plan on staying air borne then entire match our Needle's will give you a head ache.

Now that is just countering some of his strengths. I still say that ball is a terror.
50-50 is my vote.

 

[choknater]

kewkky im just saying theres not a lot of times where sheik is gonna be in that bad of a position to be edge guarded. im still gonna live to 120+ against a kirby because i di and recover well. i bet i will only die to kirby because a bair or fsmash beat one of my moves, not because i was edgeguarded.

kirby doesnt have any hitboxes, besides 2nd aerial hammer, that are gonna put sheik in a terrible position to get edge guarded. its gonna be rare that i'll ever be in a position to get daired (but yes, if i do get daired i will die)

both sheik and kirby players, u cant just say 'kirby can do this' or 'sheik can do this' and call it an advantage cuz u guys have to think about how often those situations are gonna come up. sheik has needles, but kirby is gonna be in the air trying to approach you the whole time so it will be very rare that sheik will be able to needle.

but the needles at least deter kirby's ground game, theres no point in kirby fsmashing/jabbing/ftilt/jab spam or whatever if sheik has charged needles on the ground.

and yes kirby's bair/fsmash should beat most of sheik's moves but sheik is going to be running around and spacing on the ground, so if you miss you could eat an ftilt or needles or fair or something. it is a SPACING GAME, which makes most matchups closer than people think. spacing games are what most matchups come down to, and i just think kirby has slightly better tools than sheik does. but if u guys know sheik at all, she can gain momentum and get an EASY 50~60% at any moment if she just happens to guess your reaction out of a combo once or twice. that makes the matchup fun

imo 55:45 kirby because his bair and tilts are so good and reach farther than what sheik has, but it's not in kirby's huge advantage because sheik has the speed to attack between any of kirby's missed attacks, or even sometimes blocked bairs.

oh and sheik players: kirby will almost never have to use final cutter to recover, but if he does, use that invincible bair baby

 

[t!MmY]

choknater ***** this match-up discussion.

Sheik's speed is perhaps the greatest advantage in this entire match-up. It allows her to distance herself safely from Kirby, move in quickly to damage and punish, and keep pressure on Kirby regardless of who out-prioritizes whom.

Her Needle Storm is especially useful in this match-up since it automatically allows the option of long range damage agaisnt Kirby. Campy and spammy projectiles always give Kirby a harder match-up than he otherwise deserves. Thankfully she doesn't have a way to reflect Kirby's needles (well, I guess there's Nayru's Love, but I digress).

Being unable to follow-up a U-air after the F-throw is not that big of a deal. Considering the fact that I teach everyone I play how to SDI out of Kirby's F-throw -> U-air combo I'm not losing that big of a combo. At any rate, you can just use a D-throw -> U-tilt combo on Sheik. U-tilt is way better in this match-up than F-throw -> U-air is in any other match-up.

Kirby's mostly going to rely on getting his hits in from the ground since it's none too difficult for the Sheik player to out maneuver and beat Kirby in the air. From the ground Kirby can rely on his quickest attacks (Jab, D-tilt, F-tilt, U-tilt, Grab), while in the air he only really has B-air and maybe U-air. Kirby still has to watch out for Sheik's DACUS because it can KO him at surprisingly low percents (around 80% when sweetspotted). Sheik can DACUS Kirby out of almost anything, but he's especially vulnerable when in the air where he's most likely to get sweet-spotted by the U-smash. Thankfully the DACUS is fairly easy to avoid if you just know what to watch for when at KO range (some Sheik players can be predictable in their uses with it, much as Falcos can be).

Kirby with Needle Storm is pretty awesome. If you can get an Inhale on Sheik, it might be worth the Copy. A Kirbycide is always great, but again, if you're playing against someone who isn't offensive or doesn't just run into your mouth when you're off-stage, you can pretty much assume you're not going to be able to rely on many Kirbycides.

This match-up is nearly even.

 

[Delta Z]

At the same time, you gotta remember that Kirby is one of the harder characters to combo 'cause of his floatiness and small frame. And Sheik being a fastfaller is pretty much saying "combo me".

I'm probably overstating that, but still something to remember.

 

[choknater]

lol 'combo'

kirby can get some utilts at most

sheik can get a 1 or 2 ftilts to utilt or nair or something

not a lot of combos in this matchup

 

[-Mars-]

Even if she can't lock you she still has moves that setup her aerials due to the low knockback on ftilt. Chok and timmy summed the matchup pretty well. T!mmy how do you DI Kirbys fthrow?

 

[choknater]

i think even if u dont di the uair wont connect lol

 

[Lord Viper]

i think even if u dont di the uair wont connect lol

☆ If your near 0%, if Sheik is around 15% she will get hit with U-Tilt after F-Throw though I'm surprise people would U-Air after F-Tilt with Sheik or against characters that fast fall at the matter, I under stand F-Air afterwords then re-grab, but oh well since you have to try to make the strings connect and there's a chance they can escape if you mess up. The reason I lean mostly on 60/40 is mostly due to Sheik's lack of attack range on most of her attacks and finishing blows. She may be fast, but with those two cons messes her chance. ☆

 

[~Shao~]

T!mmy how do you DI Kirbys fthrow?

I'm not t!mmy but I believe the best way is to SDI up and away from Kirby. The DI on the f-throw combo isn't on the f-throw, it's on the u-air, so they can't follow up with a u-tilt. Well, at least I think it is :x

 

[A1lion835]

T!mmy how do you DI Kirbys fthrow?

I'm not t1mmy either, but sheik doesn't even need to DI. You can just jump away.

 

[Kewkky]

I, just like Viper, lean on the 60/40 advantage for Kirby's side. Sheik doesn't have Kirby's range, and Kirby kills faster. So what if she can setup a 3-hit combo near 0% on us? We'll still kill her with our reach at higher percents... And 3-hit ~20% combos at 0% won't decide who wins a match, much less coming from a character who literally has lots of trouble killing. Her actual only reliable KO options are DACUS and edgehogs, everything else is situational (if we DI wrong)... Where we can just hit her with our mostly used moves that also kill and have more reach than Sheik (bair), as well as our godsent fsmash (which like any other attack in the game can be avoided, so don't bring up that argument. It's infamous for a reason).

So, it's also near even if Kirby's inhale beats out the majority of her attacks, and if done on-stage near the ledge, can also setup for a kirbicide > footstool > dair > footstool? ...What about if we send her high up because she DIs properly, and we follow and bait her into an inhale, then just take her farther away from the stage, kirbicide > footstool, and grab the ledge? ... And what's sheik going to do to Kirby if he keeps shielding the needles and spacing with ftilt? ... Or, what if Kirby decides to bait Sheik approaches and punish with grabs (any throw except fthrow will do at any %)?

I think something's fishy if you call it near even. It's just as ******** as saying the Ganon MU is 55/45 Kirby's.


EDIT: Can someone point out what actual match-changing techniques and/or maneuvers Sheik has over Kirby? If not, then I'm going to feel like the Kirby mains here (who are saying it's even [or worse])are starting to think that Kirby sucks and giving him even/disadvantaged matchups only...

 

[thrillagorilla]

I noticed a couple of flaws in your logic and just wanted to point them out...

I, just like Viper, lean on the 60/40 advantage for Kirby's side. Sheik doesn't have Kirby's range, and Kirby kills faster. So what if she can setup a 3-hit combo near 0% on us? We'll still kill her with our reach at higher percents... And 3-hit ~20% combos at 0% won't decide who wins a match, much less coming from a character who literally has lots of trouble killing. Her actual only reliable KO options are DACUS and edgehogs, everything else is situational (if we DI wrong)... Where we can just hit her with our mostly used moves that also kill and have more reach than Sheik (bair), as well as our godsent fsmash (which like any other attack in the game can be avoided, so don't bring up that argument. It's infamous for a reason).

So, it's also near even if Kirby's inhale beats out the majority of her attacks, and if done on-stage near the ledge, can also setup for a kirbicide > footstool > dair > footstool? ...What about if we send her high up because she DIs properly, and we follow and bait her into an inhale, then just take her farther away from the stage, kirbicide > footstool, and grab the ledge? ... And what's sheik going to do to Kirby if he keeps shielding the needles and spacing with ftilt? ... Or, what if Kirby decides to bait Sheik approaches and punish with grabs (any throw except fthrow will do at any %)?

I think something's fishy if you call it near even. It's just as ******** as saying the Ganon MU is 55/45 Kirby's.


EDIT: Can someone point out what actual match-changing techniques and/or maneuvers Sheik has over Kirby? If not, then I'm going to feel like the Kirby mains here (who are saying it's even [or worse])are starting to think that Kirby sucks and giving him even/disadvantaged matchups only...

1. Sheik is faster and forces an approach, so Kirby's range advantage is much less of an advantage than you make it out to be.

2. Kirby has no consistent way of racking damage and has no way of mitigating needle storm's effect of forcing the approach, making his kill moves less useful, albeit still much better.

3. None of Kirby's kill moves are under 10 frames (average human response time) or have consistent set-ups, meaning that for theoretical MU models they can not be considered reliable. Because of this, they can not be seen as a large advantage on a character with the same issues.

4. Inhale near the edge is situational at absolute best and should not be considered in the MU discussions seeing that it has no set-ups.

5. Inhale in general should not be considered in the MU due to its severely slow start-up time and Sheik's mobility (Note: Mobility can be measured and should be considered in MU discussions).

6. I'm glad you brought up a situation that could happen and I hope that a Sheik main responds. That being said, it is pointless to bring up a situation like that and then use it as evidence to the MU being in Kirby's favor considering that any Sheik player could do the EXACT SAME THING for their character.

7. Kirby doesn't "suck". He's just mediocre. He has no reliable ways to kill, has no way to force an approach against about 3/4ths of the cast save playing the edge (which he doesn't do the greatest job of either), and is very immobile (in the sense of how fast he moves, not where he can go) to boot. He is also outclassed by other characters (Metaknight most notably) that can do the same types of things better. He is a character that relies upon a player being able to outsmart the opponent and rewards the player highly when they do so. He has no **** MUs, but he doesn't destroy anyone either. He's... average. His current MUs are reflecting it too(most if not all of his bad MUs have been covered, so the rest are going to be around 50-50 or so).

Let me know if I missed anything. If you don't agree with my points, please state why and I'd be happy to discuss it. Just know that if you try to write my points off or bring up things that don't deal directly with my points, I will ream you for it.

 

[Kewkky]

1. Sheik is faster and forces an approach, so Kirby's range advantage is much less of an advantage than you make it out to be.

Speed + range =/= advantage many times, or else we'd see ZSS higher than Kirby on the tier list (for example). Kirby can survive longer than Sheik can in this MU, and also kills faster.

2. Kirby has no consistent way of racking damage and has no way of mitigating needle storm's effect of forcing the approach, making his kill moves less useful, albeit still much better.

The best way to stop a ranged attack is to shield it. Believe me, as a ZSS user, I know how hard MU's can get when opponents start shielding the attack(s) that should give you an advantage, in the MU.

3. None of Kirby's kill moves are under 10 frames (average human response time) or have consistent set-ups, meaning that for theoretical MU models they can not be considered reliable. Because of this, they can not be seen as a large advantage on a character with the same issues.

Sheik has lag after needle storm no matter what happens. If used from long range, Kirby can shield, If used from close range, she gets enough lag for us to SDI away and airdodge/bair/whatever in response... Sheik's lag is longer than 10 frames, and the distance required to travel (when used from long-range) at a safe distance is 10 frames or higher, even more when you consider her animation while she's starting up her attack: that gives it MUCH more than 10 frames for us to shield the needles in long-range usage, and in close-range makes it easier for us to SDI, get farther away, and retaliate/dodge.

4. Inhale near the edge is situational at absolute best and should not be considered in the MU discussions seeing that it has no set-ups.

Kirbicide>footstools are situational, yet they still happen as punishment for opponents' mistakes. Snake's fsmash is a punishing move that takes 10+ frames to start up, yet kills at ridiculously low %s. ROB's nair takes 10+ frames to start, yet is used as MU discussion fodder... What do all of these have in common? They have no set-ups... If MU discussions only talk about how characters' fast attacks work in a matchup and literally leave out a lot of what the character can do, and make it seem like the character is a HORRIBLE character, it's not really helping any character main get better at MUs, right?

How can you argue this with that logic: "MK approaches with nado/drill. I use fsmash and break it and send him farther/kill him. This is an advantage in the MU."... Will you point out that fsmash shouldn't be considered in the MU because it takes 10+ frames to start up?

5. Inhale in general should not be considered in the MU due to its severely slow start-up time and Sheik's mobility (Note: Mobility can be measured and should be considered in MU discussions).

Mobility IS measured in MU discussions... But it's not instantly a larger advantage than how a character can kill the other easier. Sonic has the craziest ground mobility yet he's got lots of disadvantaged MUs... Yoshi has amazing aerial mobility yet he's so amazingly low in the MU... What does mobility give you, but mobility? An opponent who knows how to create a wall (bair wall for Kirby) will easily screw your approaches up, so getting a % advantage then forcing Sheik to approach would immediately put her in a disadvantaged position.

And if she's in a disadvantaged position and we inhale her while she tries to approach, wouldn't that have to be part of an MU discussion? It's literally common sense for Kirby players who love gimping and who see an opponents' ground game as "lacking" in range (besides her ranged attacks)... Inhale beats dash attack/ftilt/dtilt/utilt/jab/DACUS (from what I remember, I haven't had the time lately to refresh on what Kirby can outprioritize) if misspaced, and dash attack/ftilt/jab/DACUS (maybe) when spaced. How is Inhale NOT a factor in this MU?

I find it a stupid idea leaving out a crucial technique out of an MU, simply because it has no real setups, ESPECIALLY considering how easy it is to grab with it (grab range that grants super armor when inhaling, so it wins when trading hits most of the time)... How is 0-death not viable MU discussion, especially when a character has gained quick fame due to how easy it is to do such a technique (kirbicide)? Even worse considering it works especially well on a handful of characters (kirbicide>footstool[>dair>footstool])!

6. I'm glad you brought up a situation that could happen and I hope that a Sheik main responds. That being said, it is pointless to bring up a situation like that and then use it as evidence to the MU being in Kirby's favor considering that any Sheik player could do the EXACT SAME THING for their character.

... Yet they don't have moves that last longer than 10 frames and as argued as "not viable MU discussion info", as well as not create crazy MUs like 55/45 Kirby's in the Ganon MU.

7. Kirby doesn't "suck". He's just mediocre. He has no reliable ways to kill, has no way to force an approach against about 3/4ths of the cast save playing the edge (which he doesn't do the greatest job of either), and is very immobile (in the sense of how fast he moves, not where he can go) to boot. He is also outclassed by other characters (Metaknight most notably) that can do the same types of things better. He is a character that relies upon a player being able to outsmart the opponent and rewards the player highly when they do so.

What character doesn't fit this description? And the before-mentioned is also an exaggeration. How is it that our overall speed is considered as "very immobile" if we're known for strings and combo's, as well as out-reaching a number of characters with some of our moves (ftilt and bair)?

He has no **** MUs, but he doesn't destroy anyone either. He's... average. His current MUs are reflecting it too(most if not all of his bad MUs have been covered, so the rest are going to be around 50-50 or so).

He doesn't have any **** MUs because everyone is so reluctant in giving Kirby any 70/30 advantages! They even gave Ganon a 55/45 Kirby's, I am still facepalming on this heavily. Kirbies beat Ganon's the vast majority of the time offline, how is it that in the MU it's pointed as "even"? *FACEPALM*

Let me know if I missed anything. If you don't agree with my points, please state why and I'd be happy to discuss it. Just know that if you try to write my points off or bring up things that don't deal directly with my points, I will ream you for it.

Sheik is a severely underpowered Falco in how others describe the MU. Falco was our most notable "****" MU and was changed to "even". If Sheik is a severely underpowered Falco, why is she STILL "even"?


I mean no disrespect for any Sheik users, please remember this. I'm also not saying you guys play worse than Kirby mains... But Sheik has a disadvantage in this MU, and I have no idea how other Kirby mains can't see this.


Edit: Ugh, why even make MU discussions when they won't even tell things like it is? If all low-to-high level Kirbies do good against low-to-high level X character, why name it as an "even" MU? What point is there in an MU discussion, if all it has is false information? And Ganon's attacks mostly come out over 10 frames... Does that make almost all of his attack unreliable to use as MU discussion fodder? If so, HOW did he get 55/45 Kirby's?

I literally don't understand this.

 

[Delta Z]

Yeah, I gotta admit, a lot of the guys here seem like they underestimate Kirby. I mean, he is A Tier, and the back room had legit reasons for putting him there.

 

[T-nuts]

Yeah, I gotta admit, a lot of the guys here seem like they underestimate Kirby.

probably because he is an 8 inch fluff ball

 

[choknater]

sheik is not underpowered lol

0-90% is like nothing, sheik can rack that damage in a single rush down. if u miss something ur gonna take 18% from charged needles lol

honestly i never cared much about sheik's lack of kill moves, honestly, it only makes it hard to kill snake and G&W and no one else (they consistently live to over 200% against sheik but i don't really care, cuz i'm not taking much damage anyway)

kirby is probably gonna live to 150 or 160 against sheik and die from either fair, sweetspot bair, nair, or uair. those are her best kill moves in general, and if u make a mistake and get usmash/dacus ur gonna die at 100, or 130 if its not sweetspotted.

mmmm... as for zelda.... zelda is mildly useful in this matchup. i mean, kirby can't TOTALLY shut down zelda, but meh, i'd rather use sheik to 150 rather than going for zelda at 100. (i would say otherwise if my zelda was better....)

and if u guys play gay

im just gonna roll around and punish all ur mistakes for fully charged 12~18% needles anyway lol

 

[thrillagorilla]

Speed + range =/= advantage many times, or else we'd see ZSS higher than Kirby on the tier list (for example). Kirby can survive longer than Sheik can in this MU, and also kills faster.

ZSS should be higher than Kirby on the tier list. Also, I said it needs to be taken into consideration, mostly because she can dance around Kirby's kill moves, which have trouble killing for the previously stated reasons. Finally, I never said anything about Speed+Range =/= advantage, I said that speed helps to mitigate (NOT eliminate) range advantage.

The best way to stop a ranged attack is to shield it. Believe me, as a ZSS user, I know how hard MU's can get when opponents start shielding the attack(s) that should give you an advantage, in the MU.

These are not even comparable situations, much less what I was talking about. Needle Storm is not just for damage racking, its a way of forcing an approach with the possibility of doing damage. What makes it so effective is that there are multiple needles, and that Kirby can't perfect shield them all. This does two things for Sheik. First, it wears on Kirby's shield, putting Kirby in a situation where he must either take to the air (where he is horrendously slow) or go to the edge. Second, it ensures a small amount of shield stun, helping out when Kirby gets to close (though once again, it doesn't eliminate the problem). Also, if I am not mistaken there is less chance of lag when the needles are released from the air, which is a better choice at closer ranges anyways. If Kirby is on top of Sheik, she shouldn't be using the needles at all, so the point is moot there.

Sheik has lag after needle storm no matter what happens. If used from long range, Kirby can shield, If used from close range, she gets enough lag for us to SDI away and airdodge/bair/whatever in response... Sheik's lag is longer than 10 frames, and the distance required to travel (when used from long-range) at a safe distance is 10 frames or higher, even more when you consider her animation while she's starting up her attack: that gives it MUCH more than 10 frames for us to shield the needles in long-range usage, and in close-range makes it easier for us to SDI, get farther away, and retaliate/dodge.

You have completely misunderstood the point of the ten frame rule. Don't use it unless you know what it means. I digress though...

If Kirby is on the ground in close enough range to punish the needles, then Sheik has already baited Kirby into her range. Kirby had to approach, mission accomplished. On the flip side, if he doesn't, then shield pressure eventually comes into play. You can't have your cake and eat it too, sir.

Kirbicide>footstools are situational, yet they still happen as punishment for opponents' mistakes. Snake's fsmash is a punishing move that takes 10+ frames to start up, yet kills at ridiculously low %s. ROB's nair takes 10+ frames to start, yet is used as MU discussion fodder... What do all of these have in common? They have no set-ups... If MU discussions only talk about how characters' fast attacks work in a matchup and literally leave out a lot of what the character can do, and make it seem like the character is a HORRIBLE character, it's not really helping any character main get better at MUs, right?

Again, DO NOT USE THE 10 FRAME RULE IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT MEANS. As to your point, there is a very large difference between Snake's F-smash (which for all intents and purposes should never connect lest the opponent makes a very foolish choice, by which point it isn't the character's fault and shouldn't be heavily weighed in an MU discussion) and Kirby's inhale. Its not only about the raw data, its about the application. Take ROB's nair for instance. It comes out on frame 18, so it shouldn't hit. However, there are other aspects to the move that make it still have its uses. First, it cover's ROB's entire hurt-box at some point during the move. Next, with proper timing, it has no ending lag and be used to bait, or get the opponent to over anticipate the punish and get hit by the move. That is a far cry from a move with similar start-up, single directional and has massive ending lag. The same goes for snake's f-smash as does for ROB's nair. The move should never hit, but in the event that Snake's explosives limit the opponent's options, a good player might be able to predict their opponent's move and land it. Again, Kirby has no way of making this work with inhale with his move-set. This doesn't make the move worthless by any means as it DOES have it's applications, but there is nothing inherent about the move that makes it worth using without proper player prediction, which is something not admissible in an MU discussion when the character has no real way of forcing the opponent into a situation where the move can be used (AKA a set-up). In short, both of your examples don't apply to Kirby's inhale because they fill different niches than Kirby's inhale. On a side note, Snake's f-smash is outclassed by other moves in his moveset that would fill a less situational niche, so the move generally speaking shouldn't be weighted in MU discussions.

How can you argue this with that logic: "MK approaches with nado/drill. I use fsmash and break it and send him farther/kill him. This is an advantage in the MU."... Will you point out that fsmash shouldn't be considered in the MU because it takes 10+ frames to start up?

OK, it would seem that I need to explain the purpose of the 10 frame rule. The average human response time is about 10 frames. This should be used to gauge how fast a person can respond to an opponent's move right out of the gate. In terms of Kirby's f-smash, this means that since it only takes a single frame to PS and Kirby's f-smash comes out in more than 10 frames, a vigilant opponent should ALWAYS be able to PS. Though this isn't always the case in an actual match, when looking at the abilities of characters when compared to each other (AKA, MU ratios), it makes for a good textbook standard. Does this mean that Kirby's f-smash will never hit? No, because the move is still relatively fast, and there are situations where the move can hit outside of the standard out of the gate method (mostly dealing with opponent lag). Because these times are situational due to the 10 frame rule, however, they are not as reliable (AKA more crucial to the MU) than a move like Snake's u-tilt and therefore aren't as weighted.

As to your hypothetical situation, I'd have to look at the move's start-up times and compare. The Kirby player would have 10 frames to respond to the drill rush, and depending on the distance the ability to out-prioritize drill rush could very well be considered in the MU.

Mobility IS measured in MU discussions... But it's not instantly a larger advantage than how a character can kill the other easier. Sonic has the craziest ground mobility yet he's got lots of disadvantaged MUs... Yoshi has amazing aerial mobility yet he's so amazingly low in the MU... What does mobility give you, but mobility? An opponent who knows how to create a wall (bair wall for Kirby) will easily screw your approaches up, so getting a % advantage then forcing Sheik to approach would immediately put her in a disadvantaged position.

I think that it would be more simple to check off your examples than try and go into detail about how the MUs are effected by movement. I think you will get the idea...

1. Sonic has great ground mobility, but his options out of that mobility are very limited due to start up time on his moves and priority issues. He is also floaty, which slows him down considerably in the air.

2. Yoshi has great air speed, but not the greatest air acceleration. In other words, he can't turn in the air on a dime. That coupled with his shield issues tend to make for a not so great character. That is of course reflected in his MUs.

3. Kirby has a great defensive move in bair, but offensively it doesn't work all that well due to his lack of mobility. Other characters have the capacity to camp him because of that problem and force the approach. Heck, Captain Falcon can camp him. Its not just the move's properties, but their applications that need to be taken into consideration. Part of that is the character's mobility.

And if she's in a disadvantaged position and we inhale her while she tries to approach, wouldn't that have to be part of an MU discussion? It's literally common sense for Kirby players who love gimping and who see an opponents' ground game as "lacking" in range (besides her ranged attacks)... Inhale beats dash attack/ftilt/dtilt/utilt/jab/DACUS (from what I remember, I haven't had the time lately to refresh on what Kirby can outprioritize) if misspaced, and dash attack/ftilt/jab/DACUS (maybe) when spaced. How is Inhale NOT a factor in this MU?

She isn't likely in the disadvantaged position because she is the one forcing the approach. Kirby has to approach. Kirby has to approach. KIRBY HAS TO APPROACH. Finally, I didn't say that the move wasn't a factor, I said it wasn't a weighted factor (AKA situational) due to all the above stated reasons.

I find it a stupid idea leaving out a crucial technique out of an MU, simply because it has no real setups, ESPECIALLY considering how easy it is to grab with it (grab range that grants super armor when inhaling, so it wins when trading hits most of the time)... How is 0-death not viable MU discussion, especially when a character has gained quick fame due to how easy it is to do such a technique (kirbicide)? Even worse considering it works especially well on a handful of characters (kirbicide>footstool[>dair>footstool])!

See above.

... Yet they don't have moves that last longer than 10 frames and as argued as "not viable MU discussion info", as well as not create crazy MUs like 55/45 Kirby's in the Ganon MU.

Again... 10 frame rule...

What character doesn't fit this description? And the before-mentioned is also an exaggeration. How is it that our overall speed is considered as "very immobile" if we're known for strings and combo's, as well as out-reaching a number of characters with some of our moves (ftilt and bair)?

Kirby is only known as a combo character because people don't know the MU very well. The best he has are a few strings. As for out-ranging characters, bair is the only thing he really has going for him in that regard (other characters can do it to him just as easily when it comes to ground moves), and all of the aforementioned points should cover everything else.

He doesn't have any **** MUs because everyone is so reluctant in giving Kirby any 70/30 advantages! They even gave Ganon a 55/45 Kirby's, I am still facepalming on this heavily. Kirbies beat Ganon's the vast majority of the time offline, how is it that in the MU it's pointed as "even"? *FACEPALM*

60-40 Kirby's advantage. Ganon kills Kirby with over half of his move-set and has has methods of getting Kirby in percentage range. Kirby is faster (for once) and has more options in terms of killing and gimping. Due to how much damage Ganon can dish out, they are both more or less even in terms of damage racking. This is WAY oversimplified, but you get the idea. If you want to see what a real 70-30 MU looks like, learn how to play proficiently with Pikachu, learn how to CG, and play against a Fox. THAT is a hard counter with limited options. Better yet, learn to CG with the ICs and play against Kirby. Finally, calm down dude. If you want to get emotionally charged, do it in a social thread or pms. It has no place in an MU discussion thread.

[/COLOR]Sheik is a severely underpowered Falco in how others describe the MU. Falco was our most notable "****" MU and was changed to "even". If Sheik is a severely underpowered Falco, why is she STILL "even"?

There is no point in saying it, because I already know that no-one here will listen. Suffice it to say, 55-45 Kirby's advantage is well within reason for the Sheik MU.

I mean no disrespect for any Sheik users, please remember this. I'm also not saying you guys play worse than Kirby mains... But Sheik has a disadvantage in this MU, and I have no idea how other Kirby mains can't see this.

Because we are willing to look at the opposing character's options and weigh them against Kirby's.

Edit: Ugh, why even make MU discussions when they won't even tell things like it is? If all low-to-high level Kirbies do good against low-to-high level X character, why name it as an "even" MU? What point is there in an MU discussion, if all it has is false information? And Ganon's attacks mostly come out over 10 frames... Does that make almost all of his attack unreliable to use as MU discussion fodder? If so, HOW did he get 55/45 Kirby's?

I literally don't understand this.

"Don't tell things like it is", or "don't tell things like you want to hear"? Calm down and use your head. Its great that you want to talk about situations and how to handle them, that that is a completely different aspect from discussing the actual ratios. Ratios in actuality should be comparisons of characters viable options. I digress though, I'm starting to talk about "what I think things should be" myself. I'd like to keep this chat going, but I have a 10 hour work day tomorrow followed by a full weekend. If you want to keep this discussion going, let me know and we can continue it later if you like.

 

[choknater]

lol dayum kirby matchup discussion is srs business

usually sheik matchup discussions look like this

'its not in our favor but our character is really fast so we got this'

 

[Kewkky]

Edit: Fine, put whatever ratio you guys feel like... It's not like the ACTUAL outcome of a match depends on an MU discussion, so I'm not losing anything.

 

[Delta Z]

...putting Kirby in a situation where he must either take to the air (where he is horrendously slow)...

Sure you're not thinking of Dedede or Melee Kirby? I mean, in Brawl, Kirby actually has okay speed. He's slow if you compare him to DK, but the big ape is one of the most mobile characters in the game.

Does this mean that Kirby's f-smash will never hit? No, because the move is still relatively fast, and there are situations where the move can hit outside of the standard out of the gate method (mostly dealing with opponent lag).

True, but something you seem to forget yourself. You almost act like Sheik will never get hit by it. You also kind of forget that Kirby has other kill moves, even if they're harder to land, but more options make him that much harder to predict.

3. Kirby has a great defensive move in bair, but offensively it doesn't work all that well due to his lack of mobility. Other characters have the capacity to camp him because of that problem and force the approach. Heck, Captain Falcon can camp him. Its not just the move's properties, but their applications that need to be taken into consideration. Part of that is the character's mobility.

Again, Kirby has okay mobility. Falcon has slower attacks, but he's the second fastest character in the game in pure speed.

Kirby is only known as a combo character because people don't know the MU very well. The best he has are a few strings.

True, there aren't many true combos in Brawl, but by now people use "combo" when they mean "string" anyway. Kirby's biggest advantage with his combos/strings is that he has several different ways he can mess with them. T1mmy has a thread on AiB on this.

Because we are willing to look at the opposing character's options and weigh them against Kirby's.

And then forget most of Kirby's advantages...

kirby is probably gonna live to 150 or 160 against sheik and die from either fair, sweetspot bair, nair, or uair. those are her best kill moves in general, and if u make a mistake and get usmash/dacus ur gonna die at 100, or 130 if its not sweetspotted.

Which doesn't help Sheik much when a fresh f-smash kills her in the 90's, and being punished with Stone or Giant Swing kills her even earlier.

 

[choknater]

i am never gonna get hit by stone or hammer lol

fsmash though, yes.

and like i said

i dont care if i die early. i die to metaknights at 110 and snakes at 110 all the time. kirby at 90? i dont really care.

what matters is that sheik is gonna do MAJOR damage and not get hit. even if i get to 110 against a snake, he is probably gonna be at like 200 or be a stock down anyway. u have to realize thats how sheiks momentum works. she doesnt CARE that she doesnt have killing power, cuz her needles and impressive frame data are gonna pretty much put her always ahead in damage, even against metaknight.

that is, if the sheik is good haha.

if u are ahead of sheik in percent, ur lead is much greater than u think. because yes youre right, kirby is gonna kill sheik with fsmash at very low %

unless of course sheik runs around with needles and plays ground campy ahahhaa. (but then ur probably gonna kill her with bair )

dont think of other moves to kill sheik LOL. i play kirby and i bet if i played against my own sheik i would NEVER hit her with a hammer or stone if she is patient. in fact, low hammers would get punished by needles. or dacus if im crazy enough

 

[Delta Z]

Which is exactly why Stone and both hammers are really only used for punishing and mindgames anyway. You won't see them enough to make punishing them become that much of a difference. If the Kirby is just throwing them out for no real reason and expecting them to hit, he/she probably isn't that good.

 

[Kewkky]

I only use stone to punish getup animations on the ledge, nothing else. Getup attack, getup, roll, jump or ledgedrop, Stone can cover all those if your character isn't blessed with invinciframes all the way until the end of your animations. If not, I just fall with a dair/bair/whatever.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I just wanna say that kewk is right. Sheik is definetely not even against Kirby. 60-40 Kirby.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Sheik is soooo easy to gimp as Kirby esp with kirbycides 60:40 sounds right

 

[Suspect]

I need to learn this matchup, light beat my kirby

 

[thrillagorilla]

Edit: Fine, put whatever ratio you guys feel like... It's not like the ACTUAL outcome of a match depends on an MU discussion, so I'm not losing anything.

The point of the discussions is to weigh character strengths, weaknesses, and talk about situations particular to the MU being discussed. If you feel like you know the MUs and don't feel like you need to discuss here, then don't. Your input is appreciated when you do regardless. Also, I'm a tad disappointed, I had hoped for a response.

Sure you're not thinking of Dedede or Melee Kirby? I mean, in Brawl, Kirby actually has okay speed. He's slow if you compare him to DK, but the big ape is one of the most mobile characters in the game.

I don't remember the thread, but there is a listing of character speeds, and Kirby is towards the bottom of ground speed and is on the bottom of the list in air speed. He has some quick attacks, but they aren't fabulous. They also lack range for the most part. Tack that together with his poor mobility, and you have a relatively slow character.

True, but something you seem to forget yourself. You almost act like Sheik will never get hit by it. You also kind of forget that Kirby has other kill moves, even if they're harder to land, but more options make him that much harder to predict.

Prediction is player specific, not character specific. Sheik doesn't have to be running into Kirby's range all the time, and with f-smash being the fastest of his options, the others fall into relatively the same category as it. Except stone and hammer, which chocknater already pointed out won't hit any sheik worth their salt. If we are talking ratios, than none of Kirby's kill options can be considered anything more than situational. That doesn't mean that they won't hit, it just means they aren't as useful and won't hit as often as a move like Snake's u-tilt or Fox's u-smash. Also, we can't kid ourselves by saying that we can throw out a kill move out and expect it to hit. That is what makes the move situational. Once we are finished discussing the viability of the move-sets in an MU, we can move away from the MU ratio and discuss how we as players can increase our chances of landing a move, racking damage, and getting the win. Does this make sense?

Again, Kirby has okay mobility. Falcon has slower attacks, but he's the second fastest character in the game in pure speed.

Again, Kirby is slow. Look at the data. Also, Falcon just needs to use his faster moves (bair comes to mind) for it to work, and when Kirby gets too close, use his speed to run away and begin the process all over again. Keep in mind, I never said it was a smart thing to do, just something that he can do.

True, there aren't many true combos in Brawl, but by now people use "combo" when they mean "string" anyway. Kirby's biggest advantage with his combos/strings is that he has several different ways he can mess with them. T1mmy has a thread on AiB on this.

Its true that Kirby does have a few ways to rack damage that aren't reliant on true combos (t1mmy and I discussed this briefly yesterday), but if we are going to use that kind of logic we have to remember that a lot of times other characters have that same kind of ability (in this MU in particular). You say directly after this that I forgot Kirby's strengths, but I'd say these boards in general tend to ignore the opponent's strengths. I'm guilty of this too, so don't worry about me singling you or anyone else here out. Its just something to keep in mind.

And then forget most of Kirby's advantages...

Read my statement again, please. Also, see above.

Which doesn't help Sheik much when a fresh f-smash kills her in the 90's, and being punished with Stone or Giant Swing kills her even earlier.

Sheik doesn't have any moves of which I know of that lag her enough to let her get hit by giant swing or stone. Any time they do hit, it is literally an error on the opponent's part and shouldn't be incorporated into the ratio discussion. Its fine to talk about how we as players might get the attack to land, but its not admissible to the ratio.

 

[T1MMY]

Some of you guys need to actually learn the Sheik match-up. Even decent Sheiks shouldn't have too tough of a time against decent Kirby's. choknater and Thrilla provide more than enough insite for you guys to realize that it's not skewed in Kirby's favor at all.

It appears fairly even at this point in the meta game.