Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Randomly destorying agood chat!!!!!!

Who's better off the stage? Lucario or Kirby? I'm going with Kirby thanks to his sexy jumps and even cooler air game.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I'm coming in late to say this, but if someone is charging a smash of any kind and you are far away from them, use final cutter to hit them (projectile). AFAIK, there is nothing that clashes with the projectile, though drill rush might.

No. Lucario's air movement makes it a bad idea to use FC as a projectile since its ground based, and if they are too far away, I can see Kirby getting smacked by AS in the resulting lag.

But what would be a good stage for YOU, as Kirby? I don't really know, I'd say BF is pretty nice for a neutral for Kirby since platform pressure is actually kinda meh for lucario (it's not bad, but certainly it's not close to marth league), but I haven't looked very much into CPing against Kirby, it seems like not a big issue fighting kirby no matter where it goes unless it has really lopsided advantages in things.

Brinstar would likely be a good pick. It keeps the game less linear and the small size of the stage helps Kirby's mobility problem. The lack of walls to aide Lucario's recovery also helps. BF isn't a bad Kirby stage, but its not something to write home about. I can see Lylat being decent, MAYBE Japes. Oh, and of course PS1 for teh lols.

Randomly destorying agood chat!!!!!!

Who's better off the stage? Lucario or Kirby? I'm going with Kirby thanks to his sexy jumps and even cooler air game.

Obvious troll is obvious. Please don't troll the MU discussion, or I'll get Bunny in here to infract your... posterior.

 

[phi1ny3]

Brinstar! Of course, duh *slight facepalms*! Lucario's hate that stage almost as much as Corneria (which thankfully is banned in most areas).
Edit: and yes Kewwky, I do believe JJ is pretty good for Kirby too. afaik Kirby has vertical killers, but they usually are so late in killing that Kirby won't be trying it anyways. Water kills are good, I would think dair will help with that too.

Thanks for the discussion guys.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Don't forget the Swallowcides to the water currents or Swallowcide till you sturggle out and get gatored. =P ☆

☆ Sadly, the only Lucario main I played was Blood Hawk, and that was nearly a year ago, so I don't know much about the Lucario match up except I think it's slightly in Lucario's favor. =/ ☆

 

[phi1ny3]

Bloodhawk was good back in the day. I really liked his lucario.

 

[A1lion835]

No. Lucario's air movement makes it a bad idea to use FC as a projectile since its ground based, and if they are too far away, I can see Kirby getting smacked by AS in the resulting lag.

...But if they're charging a smash attack you can use it. I doubt that anyone could react quickly enough to release the smash when they see you use fc, then shield or PS the projectile and then using an AS (I'm also willing to bet that Kirby could shield or PS the aura sphere).

 

[Kewkky]

...But if they're charging a smash attack you can use it. I doubt that anyone could react quickly enough to release the smash when they see you use fc, then shield or PS the projectile and then using an AS (I'm also willing to bet that Kirby could shield or PS the aura sphere).

Actually, the lag Kirby gets after doing FC isn't enough to warrant a hit from a quick powershield>AS from Lucario. Kirby has enough time to powershield the AS, if Lucario shoots the AS after powershielding Kirby's projectile... However, if Lucario shields the FC as soon as Kirby leaves the floor, then shoots his AS (inhuman reaction), it's unavoidable for us unless we DI onto Lucario, where he can powershield and grab us as punishment. Then again, this requires inhuman reaction, so not really MU material.

 

[phi1ny3]

Back again :D

I'm coming in late to say this, but if someone is charging a smash of any kind and you are far away from them, use final cutter to hit them (projectile). AFAIK, there is nothing that clashes with the projectile, though drill rush might.

tbh, I don't know why any character, let alone lucario, would charge a smash from far away unless he's predicting/reading them like a book (like if they're ADing or something). Unless you mean a different "far away"?

 

[A1lion835]

tbh, I don't know why any character, let alone lucario, would charge a smash from far away unless he's predicting/reading them like a book (like if they're ADing or something). Unless you mean a different "far away"?

It was in a response to Kewkky's post (about the fsmash charging and what we can do about it).

 

[thrillagorilla]

I don't think I've seen a Lucario charge an f-smash except in a situation where Kirby wouldn't be in a position to use the FC (the only time I've seen it is for mind-games against people who PS exclusively). It isn't something Kirby should ever be in a position to use like that.

@Phil: You didn't respond about how useful the WB would be for the application I mentioned. I don't play Lucario, so I can't do anything but theory-craft about it. I'm curious what you think. If you need to test it out in match, we can always do that in about a week.

 

[Kewkky]

I, myself, am against all use of final cutter while on-stage, even to shoot our extremely telegraphed and slow projectile... If anything, it can be used offensively on the ledge, and ONLY on the ledge,

 

[phi1ny3]

If there's anyone who can make the most out of BROVERSAL!?! (yes, that's what it's called lol), it's Trela. I've been learning from him though. Trela's lucario is really, really flashy, but really good still.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I, myself, am against all use of final cutter while on-stage, even to shoot our extremely telegraphed and slow projectile... If anything, it can be used offensively on the ledge, and ONLY on the ledge,

It can be used on-stage if there are platforms, but the application is still VERY situational. Its also not something that is useful in this MU in particular, so why we are even discussing it is beyond me... A1, you rock. ;D

If there's anyone who can make the most out of BROVERSAL!?! (yes, that's what it's called lol), it's Trela. I've been learning from him though. Trela's lucario is really, really flashy, but really good still.

My source was Lee Martin. hmm, I guess testing in friendlies it is.

Also, "BROVERSAL?!?!"?

...

 

[Nefarious B]

Hey Kirbys the ZSS boards are discussing our matchup with you, your input is very welcome: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203418&page=80#post8381308

Also, do you guys have a xat chat or anything like that? I went onto the Lucario chat channel and got a lot of really good info in a quick amount of time, so if you guys have one that'd be a convenient way to handle this.

 

[phi1ny3]

It can be used on-stage if there are platforms, but the application is still VERY situational. Its also not something that is useful in this MU in particular, so why we are even discussing it is beyond me... A1, you rock. ;D



My source was Lee Martin. hmm, I guess testing in friendlies it is.

Also, "BROVERSAL?!?!"?

...

Wait, what did Lee say? I know he was interested after Trela showed him this stuff.
Oh yeah, and IRC/xat is really good.

 

[momochuu]

Randomly destorying agood chat!!!!!!

Who's better off the stage? Lucario or Kirby? I'm going with Kirby thanks to his sexy jumps and even cooler air game.

Ever since the first time I saw your name, I knew I'd have to deal with you one day.

 

[Kirkon]

AS isn't to the point where we will be second guessing our approaches. I've actually said before that this is a match of patience that Kirby has to play defensively. No Kirby is gonna just try to poke Lucario when he has an AS ready. There are also ways to make Lucario prematurely ejaculate his AS anyways. Empty jump ->, bair/fair -> DJ, and even sometimes just running at him (not so much that one). Just because he has an AS doesn't mean we're automatically spaced. We can still approach safely and space away back to safety. The only char that just blatantly outspaces us with little effort is Martha, but that's a different story.

Did anyone else catch that?

 

[phi1ny3]

lolz.

@Thrilla: Sure, as soon as I get the hang of a few other variations of it :D

 

[kirbz]

Um... just a question, but why are all of kirby matchups suddenly disadvantages/less good?

 

[A1lion835]

Um... just a question, but why are all of kirby matchups suddenly disadvantages/less good?

Because:

1. We're tending to do disadvantage matchups right now.

2. Kirby's metagame hasn't moved in a while. Other character's have.

 

[phi1ny3]

I kinda don't know, I think it might be for the same reason G&W is going under.
Then again, imo Kirby's tools are a little more solid than G&W imo, bair doesn't get DI-> aerial or upB'd (at least AFAIK), and it's not like Kirby goes O NOES when things start melting.
It could also be that they're doing the more disadvantaged/higher chars first. Once you rip down to lower, half the things are like "we normally have a crappy _____, but this char =/= MK/whatever stupid high tier char, so his tools are bad.
And for the record, 45:55 is hardly disadvantaged.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Once people learned that they could SDI out of stuff, Kirby's game kinda took a big hit. He has no reliable KO set ups, no good projectile and he moves slow. Kirby is a mid tier character, and people are beginning to realize it as they learn the MU against him. Kirby doesn't get ***** by anyone per say, so he's still a solid character, he just doesn't have any shining strengths either. Thats why you are seeing a number of the MU numbers changing.

Edit: @Phil: Looking forward to it.

 

[Kewkky]

Kirby's MU are tending more to disadvantages because people are thinking and beleiving together that Kirby isn't as good a character as they thought he was once.

... They're wrong. Kirby is a very awesome character and is DEFINITELY high tier (no top or mid), and some MUs make me facepalm at the completely ******** MU ratios they have been branded with... Even when in a match a Kirby will always **** an opponent, they still give it 60/40 Kirby's, and sometimes even 55/45... I slap myself and just stop posting for a while...

No hate meant, but seriously... How can people feel that way? :embarrass


Some people's voices just matter more than others', I guess... COnsider that these MUs are done without the aid of actual Kirby tourney representatives (Chu and YbM), so they're leaning away from high level MUs to mid-ish level MUs... My theory, at least.

 

[Lord Viper]

Some people's voices just matter more than others', I guess... COnsider that these MUs are done without the aid of actual Kirby tourney representatives (Chu and YbM), so they're leaning away from high level MUs to mid-ish level MUs... My theory, at least.

☆ Mostly becuase both of them just play the game despite looking at the match up's, or it could be that they are bad when it come's to match up guides... possibly, I'm not sure myself. ☆

☆ Anyways, how long are we discussing Lucario? ☆

 

[phi1ny3]

Ya, Azen and Lee hardly come over to our boards, partially because people tend to ignore their advice (or any pro's advice, for that matter). It takes a lot of patience and articulate debating to get the good points across for a MU, and often people who know the MU in and out will get disgusted at discussing because people will completely ignore/theorycraft their advice to the bone, and it often is ridiculous how they go about a MU discussion. It's clear that MU discussion =/= actual outcome, especially with characters that rely on novelty. It's funny how many people will come around to using unviable tools in a high level discussion like that, it's why I frankly have not liked expressing my opinion in my character's MU board often. Tactical discussion >>>>>>>> MU discussion, imo, unless you're like MK or something.

Edit: basically adding on to what Viper said, there's characters that are pretty icky that people will still play (take Xyro for example).
And no, Lucario stopped awhile ago, it's basically been a friendly chat with Thrilla lol ^_^

 

[A1lion835]

Friendly chat ends here .

Sheik. GO!

Edit: Heh, what would you say for a rating?

 

[phi1ny3]

Which MU are we talking? Sheik?

 

[Kewkky]

@ Viper: Talking in MU discussions, most players agree wholeheartedly with what they're saying and in some cases, regularly apply everything they say... Having other people say "it doesn't work because blah blah blah" and just sticking to theory really kills the motivation when it comes to actually discussing what's going to happen when the match actually happens. If it were up to me, I'd be all against theoretical MU discussions and more practice only...

Like the Ganondorf MU, theoretically he can kill us, but in an actual match, losing to a Ganondorf with someone who utterly ***** him (like Kirby) is degrading, especially if you're a top level player of your character... Having people contradict you and say "NO, because Ganondorf's fsmash can kill you at X%" makes you just want to get out of the discussion and let everyone discuss it themselves if they're not going to change their minds about 60:40, 55:45, 50:50, 45:55 and 40:60 MUs... And even worse when they're unsure about what their characters' capabilities can bring them to.

@ topic: Kirby has a slight advantage over Sheik. Lucario's MU, I have no idea... I'll just wait and see what people say and agree with what seems fair.

 

[A1lion835]

Which MU are we talking? Sheik?

Yes, Sheik, but we needz input on the Kirby:Lucario matchup ratio (ranking neutrals for Lucario wouldn't be terrible either).

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario vs. Kirby is 45:55 in lucario's favor, I think for stages, 45:55-50:50 Kirby's favor on SV, 50:50 on BF, and 55:45, maaaaybe 60:40 (I highly doubt this until further research on a few things has proven positive) on FD, if you have YI (which I don't in my region), or lylat (same thing as well, both are CP), YI is 60:40 Lucario, Lylat is 45:55 Kirby's favor.
As for sheik, I can see sheik being at a slight-solid disadvantage (55-60 Kirby favor). Then again it's probably depending on how well Kirby can outrange/limit her damaging options, which I'm sure is definitely doable.

 

[Zankoku]

Kirby's got this.

Just like, don't be ******** with your attacks, and pretty much out-prioritize 80% of Sheik's options.

 

[Kewkky]

Lucario vs. Kirby is 45:55 in lucario's favor, I think for stages, 45:55-50:50 Kirby's favor on SV, 50:50 on BF, and 55:45, maaaaybe 60:40 (I highly doubt this until further research on a few things has proven positive) on FD, if you have YI (which I don't in my region), or lylat (same thing as well, both are CP), YI is 60:40 Lucario, Lylat is 45:55 Kirby's favor.

So, let's see... Thanks to CP options and a bit of insight on how a match would go theoretically, we could say that in theory, they go even.

I actually feel like they're even, or slightly in Kirby's advantage. Kirby can do stuff to Lucario, and Lucario can do stuff to Kirby. And if Kirby takes Lucario's power, we no longer have any need to approach (although it would be better to keep attacking). Only bad thing for Lucario's side of the MU is, if we're at high % and we just killed you, you're going to have lots of trouble KOing us. I, as a Kirby main, can safely say that I can survive until around 160% in this MU if Lucario doesn't have the damage to kill us (which is like what, above 70-80%? And by then we'll be playing careful enough for you not to take our stock)... Which is a huge awesome boon.

Now, about Sheik... Grab Sheik when she tries close-ranged moves, SDI out of her ftilt (Kirby luckily gets out of it easily), ftilt her approaches, dair near the ledges offstage if attempting to gimp (her chain pulls her close to the stage), utilt > double bair her for good %, fthrow combo doesn't work on her (she jumps out easy), don't know about kirbicide>footstool, and watch out for her if she turns into Zelda and you're at high %s!

That's about all I can say for the Sheik MU right now. Waiting for other's inputs...!

 

[RhedKing]

Kirby>Sheik by at least 60:40

Even I know this. Sheik can't kick nearly as fast as kirby can, just ground game this whole fight and you'll do fine. Sheik is going to air game all over you but can't really do much if you don't take the bait, and of course, how you do you solve air problems when playing as a pink puff ball?

GrabgrabgrabWopwopwop.

 

[phi1ny3]

So, let's see... Thanks to CP options and a bit of insight on how a match would go theoretically, we could say that in theory, they go even.

I actually feel like they're even, or slightly in Kirby's advantage. Kirby can do stuff to Lucario, and Lucario can do stuff to Kirby. And if Kirby takes Lucario's power, we no longer have any need to approach (although it would be better to keep attacking). Only bad thing for Lucario's side of the MU is, if we're at high % and we just killed you, you're going to have lots of trouble KOing us. I, as a Kirby main, can safely say that I can survive until around 160% in this MU if Lucario doesn't have the damage to kill us (which is like what, above 70-80%? And by then we'll be playing careful enough for you not to take our stock)... Which is a huge awesome boon.

If lucario knows his "revenge killers", try about 50% (at least if Kirby is at 140 or so). Lucario gets a x1.2 multiplier boost when behind a stock, normally against midweights Lucario gets sheik/ROB-esque kill power at ~70%, if he's behind a stock. Works the other way around though, but is negligible at high % aura buffs.
Kirby, as some people have mentioned, has issues with damage racking at high levels of play (when the opponent knows how to SDI), and lucario's kill options eclipse Kirby's. Lucario won't be getting good edgeguard options due to Kirby's good offstage mobility, but having low damage rapid gains that are more or less grab dependent in a MU like this (where Kirby is outranged overall) is bad, and if he has slightly miffed kill options in comparison, I'd say 50:50 on a neutral is at utmost optimum, I'd call 60:40 lucario's favor if it weren't for the fact that Kirby holds up pretty well on neutrals, and can pull the win if Kirby wins first round regardless of the outcome of the next round.

Edit: But then again, it's my job not to vote on the verdict, but to give reasons from the other side, ultimately it's up to the Kirby boards on the MU.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

So what about stages when fighting Shiek? The only one I can think of for this match up is DP. And that's basically jusy abuse the crap out of the platforms. Anyone else have an idea on stages for Shiek vs. Kirby?

 

[Kewkky]

If lucario knows his "revenge killers", try about 50% (at least if Kirby is at 140 or so). Lucario gets a x1.2 multiplier boost when behind a stock, normally against midweights Lucario gets sheik/ROB-esque kill power at ~70%, if he's behind a stock.

Wow, didn't know that... Guess you learn something new everyday, huh?

Still, if you have to wait until 70% to get that kill power, when Kirby comes back, he's just going to rack up your damage and kill you again, but this time, he'll have less % on him due to you having ~70% vs his fresh stock.

 

[GreyClover]

55:45 Kirby.

Shiek's Ftilt is near impossible to lock on us so she's not going to use it as much as usually. Watch out for Fair>Nair and Ftilt>Nair combos too. I dunno about staying on the ground the whole time, Shiek has a couple moves that have much priority over most of our moves although her aerials have alot of range.

Somehow Shiek is immune to Fthrow combos from us, she can Nair us before we perform the Uair.

If Shiek is throwing incoming needles just duck under it. She is also very gimpable with an inhale>footstool. It's almost too likely you'll be able to it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Wow, didn't know that... Guess you learn something new everyday, huh?

Still, if you have to wait until 70% to get that kill power, when Kirby comes back, he's just going to rack up your damage and kill you again, but this time, he'll have less % on him due to you having ~70% vs his fresh stock.

Don't forget to take in weight, He gets okay kill power at 70% against mid-weights.
Also,
Yo Sheik, I'm really happy for you, and Imma letchoo finish, but Midna was the best supporting LoZ character of all time, OF ALL TIME!

(jk Twilight Princess < OoT).

 

[jiovanni007]

55:45 Kirby.

Shiek's Ftilt is near impossible to lock on us so she's not going to use it as much as usually. Watch out for Fair>Nair and Ftilt>Nair combos too. I dunno about staying on the ground the whole time, Shiek has a couple moves that have much priority over most of our moves although her aerials have alot of range.

Somehow Shiek is immune to Fthrow combos from us, she can Nair us before we perform the Uair.

If Shiek is throwing incoming needles just duck under it. She is also very gimpable with an inhale>footstool. It's almost too likely you'll be able to it.

Not true. You get hit with ~half of them.

 

[Kewkky]

jiovanni's right (partially), you can't duck under needles. Sheik throws them too close to the ground.

And why make it 55:45 Kirby's advantage, if all you said were things that hurt Sheik horribly, albeit the fthrow combo (which is not really needed in a match anyway... More like a punishment for them being in grab range at low %s)?