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Hey Joshua, how goes it? I indeed did see your post, which made incredible sense. As a matter of fact, the 1v1 test I posted yesterday was done expressly to test out the Motion and Gooey bombs. They didn't spawn enough for me to get a good feel for them (unfortunately), but one Gooey bomb did get hit by an attack and the knockback, even at 50%, was low, which supports your point.Jack Kaiser, I replied to your post on the Crush Siblings forum but I'm not sure if you ever read it. So regarding your post that all explosives are currently banned...
You are aware that you can in no way get punished for having a Motion Sensor Bomb spawning on you, right? Unlike all other explosives, they are completely safe until picked up and planted, and after that then really... it's your own fault if you attack it. Since they're unique if their safety, you probably shouldn't group them together with the other explosives.
I do keep stuff up-to-date in the news post; I don't want to modify the OP because it wasn't written to be modified. The post directly under that, however, is a News Post that I update anytime relevant information comes to light; I even timestamp the post so that people know when I updated it.you should keep stuff up to date on the 1st post
If there is, we won't be doing it; at least, not anytime soon. A unified item standard is what we're interested in, so for now, that's what we will be working towards, which knock option one off the table. Option 2 is what we always said we were going to do, and as far as support for it is concerned, I've had people AIM'ing and PM'ing me left and right voicing support for what we've been working to achieve (in addition to the 'ISP' project threads littered around SWF). Option three, while idealistic, just isn't feasible in a tournament setting; friendlies, yes, but I'm fairly confident that the player base for 'purist' Smash is too small and too far removed to really turn into something big.Is there a possibility for 3 types of tournaments?
1. No items 1 vs 1. (The typical. It is interesting.)
2. Some banned items (To me this is pointless and won't appeal to either non item players nor item players, but is what this Item Standard Play is becoming).
3. All Items FFA or 2 vs 2, 5 stocks (This is survival and it interest me. The complete Smash Experience) .
It's still a contest of skill. There are a rather large number of competitive games out there that have random elements in them. Hell, professional card games are virtually defined by their random nature, both "real" card games (e.g. Texas Hold 'Em) and TCGs (e.g. M:tG).The thing is, video game tournaments are SUPPOSED to be contests of skill.
If it takes more skill win in a situation, it's not just your skill against your opponent's it's your skill against your opponent's skill + outside factors (-outside factors when it's in your favor).
Which is why I could not support this format replacing standard unless we have balanced items, which in spite of hopes to the contrary, is not the case.
Their priority is still too great. That and they break characters with counters.Regular Hammers seem okay. They seem to have less killing power and don't last as long as their Melee counterpart, they are easily avoided on many stages and are auto-gimped if you can get them off the edge, there's still the risk of losing the head. Poor things.
Tell that to my 100% dodge rate in 1v1. A good sidestep dodge completely eliminates them, and the vulnerability frames are too short for the dragoon to be viable since it's a single hit item.Dragoon, eh. The assured OHKO seems broken in 1v1 regardless of how difficult it may be to gather all three pieces. Sometimes the pieces pop right out to a jab but then somebody else may eat two smashes and hold on to them, that kind of randomness really irks me. I can agree that it's more balanced in 2v2, though.
Texas Hold 'Em is gambling, granted it has skill attatched, but ultimately it's decided by luck. Magic the gathering is slightly different in that you use deck configurations in an attempt to account for luck. I've seen more then one deck with a 60%+ turn 3 kill rate and the reason is repitition of effects (different cards same purpose), use of deck thinners (draw a card), and cards that are effectively the same as drawing the card that you need (searchers).It's still a contest of skill. There are a rather large number of competitive games out there that have random elements in them. Hell, professional card games are virtually defined by their random nature, both "real" card games (e.g. Texas Hold 'Em) and TCGs (e.g. M:tG).
By giving a random advantage, items do in fact lesson the impact of skill, because sometimes it requires more skill to win then simply being better then the opponent. It's your opponent's skill, +advantage, vs. your skill, which is not a contest of pure skill.Randomness does indeed lessen the impact that raw skill has an the outcome of any given match, but it also broadens the skill set required to play at a high level. How can I minimize the negative impact of these random elements and mazimize the positive? In Smash, how can I best make use of these items? When to decide to grab the Cracker Launcher, when to swing versus when to toss a weapon item, my ability to catch items thrown at me are all additional skills that would have to be refined if they were used in the competitive scene.
*bolding added.I wasn't "hating" on standard competitive play at all. It's still a contest of skill whether or not you include items, though. Does the better player not still usually win? Yeah, they do. In fact, the better player with items will probably win exactly as often as they do without items. If the system is truly random, which by all accounts we believe it is, the occasional game you lose solely because of bad item spawning should be balanced by the occasional game you win likewise
Yeah, during the 2 frames of vulnerability that stopdodging has...Dragoon isn't that hard to hit with. Since it fires instantly, a properly aimed and shot Dragoon really shouldn't be dodged because it can just be used between dodges. You can't reactively evade it like you can some Final Smashes. At any rate, it's still a chance for a free KO.
I mean the actual counter-attacks, Primarily Marth's and Ike's, but I haven't really tested how well the other counters function against the hammer, I suspect Lucario will also have the same issue though.Most of the cast has a counter to Hammers, unless you meant actual counterattacks like Marth's vB. They're also easy to avoid by hogging the edge, since the Hammer user can't very well jump down to get you. It could be argued they disrupt the flow of the match, but they certainly don't "break" anything.
Bumper seems too powerful in my opinion.While I'm here, I might as well throw in my 2 cents on each item.
Before that, a few links
An article proposing an item list
Smash Wiki's Item list for reference (apparently missing the Freezie, Shell and Laser...)
--------------------------
1v1 Item List Proposal
--------------------------
Quick Look (minus undecided items)
Beam Sword
Fan
Home-run Bat
Lip's Stick
Mr. Saturn
Star-rod
Green Shell
Undecided
------------
Bumper
I'm actually all for this one, as the strategic implications of a properly placed bumper could be very fun and interesting (read: the ultimate edge-guard). This is balanced by the fact that placing it correctly could be a challenge in the heat of battle. I left it undecided because it's somewhat of an indirect helper item, and needs testing. Leaning yes.
Freezie
It's a fairly tame item, but it does lock up the opponent. Not as broken as the Pit-fall, but I didn't want to just toss it in the "striking item" section since it does have special properties. Leaning yes.
Sandbag
I like this one as well as the bumper for it's indirect applications (basically a shield to hide behind in the face of projectiles/other items). One might argue that it's boring or fairly useless, but I think it's worth testing. Leaning yes.
Dragoon
It's a one-hit kill, which almost immediately bans it. However, you possibly have to work hard to collect all three items, plus it can be dodged. Leaning no.
Pitfall
Could have put it in "redundant" but it's a bit different since it can be thrown. It takes forever and a day to mash out of, so it can almost be considered a one-hit kill for certain characters with devastating smashes/specials. But it can be avoided, and I think even caught. Needs testing. Leaning no.
Cloaking Device
Being invisible has both and advantage and disadvantage to the user that would bring skill of use into play. I will defer to the thread for testing/opinions.
Super Scope
Here you have the obvious power, vs the fact that it can be dodged/reflected/absorbed.
Laser
Leaning towards no on this one. Although carrying the opponent off the edge requires timing, said timing isn't all that difficult...
Warp Star
One of the few items with a hard-to-classify effect (striking? explosive?). Needs testing.
Spring
This is like a less useful version of the bumper IMO. If it's on its side, it acts like the bumper, but properly placed it becomes an arguably useless jumping device. Leaning towards no because the bumper could easily fill this items shoes, but you never know...
Cracker Launcher
In the same boat as the super-scope, except the power of this is balanced also by the fact that it is a bit hard to aim at times.
Franklin Badge
One that I could have put in the "redundant list". Basically an auto reflect a la the Spanimals, and Link/Pit to a degree. Could also be considered a "state altering" item since you cant discard it. I guess anything anti-campy is a good thing...
Not really.You know that the dragoon is impossible to dodge unless you can predict the future and can guess when the opponent will use it.
Playing against idiots will allow idiotic strategies to work.Not really.
Have you ever tried spamming spot-dodging against somebody using a dragoon?
For reference I am referring to the dodge where you hold the shield button and press down on the control stick.
The invincibility frames are enough and the cool down is short enough the just by spamming it I have 100% dodge ratio since adopting the technique.
No guessing required, just spam.
I seriously doubt it would be hard for the opponent to learn to time the cool-down. Once that happens, it's back to square one.Not really.
Have you ever tried spamming spot-dodging against somebody using a dragoon?
For reference I am referring to the dodge where you hold the shield button and press down on the control stick.
The invincibility frames are enough and the cool down is short enough the just by spamming it I have 100% dodge ratio since adopting the technique.
No guessing required, just spam.
Look, if it wasn't actually effective, would I get 100% dodge rate? It shouldn't matter who I was playing against.Playing against idiots will allow idiotic strategies to work.
All two frames without invincibility...I seriously doubt it would be hard for the opponent to learn to time the cool-down. Once that happens, it's back to square one.
I'm not flaming. It is a legitimate opinion, and I'm not flaming anyone at all. The fact that you try to tarnish my integrity by spreading these flagrant lies is flaming, and I've reported you for it.Sliq, with all due respect... read the OP. It has been said... MANY TIMES... not to flame in here. At all. Watch it.
So, I gave plenty of warning. What you posted directly violates what has been established in the OP, and adds literally nothing to the discussion.The OP said:[NOTE: This thread concerns offical rulesets and playstyle discussion for the creation of a unified approved item listing for item-based tournament play. This thread is NOT for:
*flaming
*discussion of whether items (in general) are tournament viable
*discussion concerning the 'randomness' of items
*trying to replace any form or facet of current, established tournament play
*etc.
All of the above will not be tolerated. If you are looking to discuss whether items should be allowed in tournaments, you have come to the wrong place.]