Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (UPDATE 1/15: MAJOR TX TOURNEY INFO)

[King Zeal]

I'll support this, although I always plan sans-items. It couldn't hurt to support an alternative strategy (Poker has, what, 2 million different sets of rules), and it could be a fun change of pace to get involved in.

 

[BravoNavo]

Hey Jack,

I've been reading this thread for quite and while and have been very interested. I would love to help any way I can.

I attended Anime Matsuri in Houston, TX over last weekend and they had a FFA Smash Brawl tourney with items. I participated and placed 4th. I have some videos from the rounds in which I played. I can upload them if you want to see them for statistical purposes.

We're also planning to have an items event at a tournament we're having soon. I'll be posting the information soon on the tournament schedule (Look for 'Bengal Brawl').

But what we got from the tournament was that the better players did in fact move on and win their rounds.

 

[Joshua368]

Jack Kaiser, I replied to your post on the Crush Siblings forum but I'm not sure if you ever read it. So regarding your post that all explosives are currently banned...

You are aware that you can in no way get punished for having a Motion Sensor Bomb spawning on you, right? Unlike all other explosives, they are completely safe until picked up and planted, and after that then really... it's your own fault if you attack it. Since they're unique if their safety, you probably shouldn't group them together with the other explosives.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jack Kaiser, I replied to your post on the Crush Siblings forum but I'm not sure if you ever read it. So regarding your post that all explosives are currently banned...

You are aware that you can in no way get punished for having a Motion Sensor Bomb spawning on you, right? Unlike all other explosives, they are completely safe until picked up and planted, and after that then really... it's your own fault if you attack it. Since they're unique if their safety, you probably shouldn't group them together with the other explosives.

Hey Joshua, how goes it? I indeed did see your post, which made incredible sense. As a matter of fact, the 1v1 test I posted yesterday was done expressly to test out the Motion and Gooey bombs. They didn't spawn enough for me to get a good feel for them (unfortunately), but one Gooey bomb did get hit by an attack and the knockback, even at 50%, was low, which supports your point.

For the time being, I went ahead and removed the Motion and Gooey bombs from the ban list.

 

[BigRick]

you should keep stuff up to date on the 1st post

 

[Jack Kieser]

you should keep stuff up to date on the 1st post

I do keep stuff up-to-date in the news post; I don't want to modify the OP because it wasn't written to be modified. The post directly under that, however, is a News Post that I update anytime relevant information comes to light; I even timestamp the post so that people know when I updated it.

Don't worry; I have it covered.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Hey everyone! I'm proud to announce that we have our first online tournament listing up! I've updated the news post with some details and a link to the thread in 'Online Tournament Listings'. I can't wait to see how this one plays out, so I hope to see you guys online. Unfortunately, because I'll be running the thing, I can't participate ( ), so I'll be relying on you all to represent us online.

Most importantly, have fun! Let's knock this one out of the park!

 

[DragoonXD]

Could you provide the link for me please? I can't seem to find it ^^;

 

[Jack Kieser]

Here's the link, in case anyone needs it:

'Item Standard Play' Project April 19/20 Online Tournament Details

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Is there a possibility for 3 types of tournaments?

1. No items 1 vs 1. (The typical. It is interesting.)
2. Some banned items (To me this is pointless and won't appeal to either non item players nor item players, but is what this Item Standard Play is becoming).
3. All Items FFA or 2 vs 2, 5 stocks (This is survival and it interest me. The complete Smash Experience) .

 

[Jack Kieser]

Is there a possibility for 3 types of tournaments?

1. No items 1 vs 1. (The typical. It is interesting.)
2. Some banned items (To me this is pointless and won't appeal to either non item players nor item players, but is what this Item Standard Play is becoming).
3. All Items FFA or 2 vs 2, 5 stocks (This is survival and it interest me. The complete Smash Experience) .

If there is, we won't be doing it; at least, not anytime soon. A unified item standard is what we're interested in, so for now, that's what we will be working towards, which knock option one off the table. Option 2 is what we always said we were going to do, and as far as support for it is concerned, I've had people AIM'ing and PM'ing me left and right voicing support for what we've been working to achieve (in addition to the 'ISP' project threads littered around SWF). Option three, while idealistic, just isn't feasible in a tournament setting; friendlies, yes, but I'm fairly confident that the player base for 'purist' Smash is too small and too far removed to really turn into something big.

Note that we're currently working on a standard for 2v2 play, as well as 1v1 play.

 

[batsman415]

You know, at first I thought that Item play was a terrible idea. But after reading 9 pages of (mostly) thoughtful posts, I'm all for it. Brawl is not melee, so we should approach Brawl differently. I played a couple of items matches, and realized how fun they can be. So if theres anyway I can help Jack, let me know.

 

[Mr.E]

Just putting a little input in on Smart Bombs, I feel like I posted this before but I dunno where it is, so...

Anyway, I'm not sure Smart Bombs really need to be banned. Sometimes they completely dud on you, they may or may not be blown up by weak attacks, they can blow up in the air early if being thrown long-distance. Said long-distance throw is often a requirement, as otherwise you run a high risk of catching yourself in the blast radius. Their KO potential is fairly weak like Sticky Bombs and you can actually avoid the final blast entirely (that has the knockback) if you fervently Smash DI.

Soccer Balls... They kill as well as any bomb and it's a crapshoot who gets sent flying if you fight on top of them. It's not really broken, but it can be an annoyance similar to having a Bob-omb or explosive Capsule spawn in front of your Smash attack.

Regular Hammers seem okay. They seem to have less killing power and don't last as long as their Melee counterpart, they are easily avoided on many stages and are auto-gimped if you can get them off the edge, there's still the risk of losing the head. Poor things.

Curry is balls. It's impossible to evade, it can rack damage upwards of 50% (1v1) and it will push opponents off the edge out of ledge sweetspotting range. It's completely broken to me.

Bumper might have some argument against because it has pretty ridiculous killing power on the throw, but other than that it's okay.

Dragoon, eh. The assured OHKO seems broken in 1v1 regardless of how difficult it may be to gather all three pieces. Sometimes the pieces pop right out to a jab but then somebody else may eat two smashes and hold on to them, that kind of randomness really irks me. I can agree that it's more balanced in 2v2, though.

And finally, my own personal vendetta against Ray Guns. ;/ Honestly, it's just too easy to get cheap, mid-percent kills by carrying someone in repeated fire straight off the edge. Other than that I don't mind them at all, but it's just lame to get caught by a shot at 40% and carried to the boundary for a free kill by an inescapable chain (at that damage%) of green lasers.

The thing is, video game tournaments are SUPPOSED to be contests of skill.
If it takes more skill win in a situation, it's not just your skill against your opponent's it's your skill against your opponent's skill + outside factors (-outside factors when it's in your favor).
Which is why I could not support this format replacing standard unless we have balanced items, which in spite of hopes to the contrary, is not the case.

It's still a contest of skill. There are a rather large number of competitive games out there that have random elements in them. Hell, professional card games are virtually defined by their random nature, both "real" card games (e.g. Texas Hold 'Em) and TCGs (e.g. M:tG).

Randomness does indeed lessen the impact that raw skill has an the outcome of any given match, but it also broadens the skill set required to play at a high level. How can I minimize the negative impact of these random elements and mazimize the positive? In Smash, how can I best make use of these items? When to decide to grab the Cracker Launcher, when to swing versus when to toss a weapon item, my ability to catch items thrown at me are all additional skills that would have to be refined if they were used in the competitive scene.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Regular Hammers seem okay. They seem to have less killing power and don't last as long as their Melee counterpart, they are easily avoided on many stages and are auto-gimped if you can get them off the edge, there's still the risk of losing the head. Poor things.

Their priority is still too great. That and they break characters with counters.

Dragoon, eh. The assured OHKO seems broken in 1v1 regardless of how difficult it may be to gather all three pieces. Sometimes the pieces pop right out to a jab but then somebody else may eat two smashes and hold on to them, that kind of randomness really irks me. I can agree that it's more balanced in 2v2, though.

Tell that to my 100% dodge rate in 1v1. A good sidestep dodge completely eliminates them, and the vulnerability frames are too short for the dragoon to be viable since it's a single hit item.

It's still a contest of skill. There are a rather large number of competitive games out there that have random elements in them. Hell, professional card games are virtually defined by their random nature, both "real" card games (e.g. Texas Hold 'Em) and TCGs (e.g. M:tG).

Texas Hold 'Em is gambling, granted it has skill attatched, but ultimately it's decided by luck. Magic the gathering is slightly different in that you use deck configurations in an attempt to account for luck. I've seen more then one deck with a 60%+ turn 3 kill rate and the reason is repitition of effects (different cards same purpose), use of deck thinners (draw a card), and cards that are effectively the same as drawing the card that you need (searchers).

Luck is the constant enemy of TCG players.

Randomness does indeed lessen the impact that raw skill has an the outcome of any given match, but it also broadens the skill set required to play at a high level. How can I minimize the negative impact of these random elements and mazimize the positive? In Smash, how can I best make use of these items? When to decide to grab the Cracker Launcher, when to swing versus when to toss a weapon item, my ability to catch items thrown at me are all additional skills that would have to be refined if they were used in the competitive scene.

By giving a random advantage, items do in fact lesson the impact of skill, because sometimes it requires more skill to win then simply being better then the opponent. It's your opponent's skill, +advantage, vs. your skill, which is not a contest of pure skill.

Don't hate on the current competative enviroment, the entire purpose of this is not to oppose it, but form an alternative play enviroment that minimizes the luck factor without eliminating items completely from the game. It has already been acknowledged for pure contests of skill, the current competative enviroment is the best possible on this thread, and playing with items will never reach that level of skill dependancy. However, it can come close, that is the objective here.

 

[Mr.E]

I wasn't "hating" on standard competitive play at all. It's still a contest of skill whether or not you include items, though. Does the better player not still usually win? Yeah, they do. In fact, the better player with items will probably win exactly as often as they do without items. If the system is truly random, which by all accounts we believe it is, the occasional game you lose solely because of bad item spawning should be balanced by the occasional game you win likewise.

Dragoon isn't that hard to hit with. Since it fires instantly, a properly aimed and shot Dragoon really shouldn't be dodged because it can just be used between dodges. You can't reactively evade it like you can some Final Smashes. At any rate, it's still a chance for a free KO.

Most of the cast has a counter to Hammers, unless you meant actual counterattacks like Marth's vB. They're also easy to avoid by hogging the edge, since the Hammer user can't very well jump down to get you. It could be argued they disrupt the flow of the match, but they certainly don't "break" anything.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I've been out of town for the past 3 days, so a big 'Hey there' to everyone who has joined us since. ^_^

Mr. E, thanks for those impressions. Most of what you said I agree with 100%; the only item I'm still on the fence about is the Ray Gun, since I know that DI is more pronounced in Brawl and I haven't seen a match between two skilled players in which a Ray Gun drops. Hopefully we'll see that in the upcoming tournament. (Everyone is still invited, by the way. I still have the link in the News post)

Glad to have you on board as well, batsman. As for helping, impressions like Mr. E's are always helpful. I think we finally got the replay problems worked out with nesdude, so if anyone is interested in that avenue, ask him and he might help you out. And, if anyone wants to be added to the list of testers we have in the News post, drop me a PM or AIM me; impressions from matches between testers is always helpful, too.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I wasn't "hating" on standard competitive play at all. It's still a contest of skill whether or not you include items, though. Does the better player not still usually win? Yeah, they do. In fact, the better player with items will probably win exactly as often as they do without items. If the system is truly random, which by all accounts we believe it is, the occasional game you lose solely because of bad item spawning should be balanced by the occasional game you win likewise

*bolding added.

No, it won't remain exactly the same amount of the time. This has been proven many times over.

Obviously the better player will still win the majority of the time, but each player will be advantaged about 50% of the time by items in one v one, which is going to, to a degree, overwhelm the skill gap and move the win ratios of both players closer to 50%,

Dragoon isn't that hard to hit with. Since it fires instantly, a properly aimed and shot Dragoon really shouldn't be dodged because it can just be used between dodges. You can't reactively evade it like you can some Final Smashes. At any rate, it's still a chance for a free KO.

Yeah, during the 2 frames of vulnerability that stopdodging has...

Doesn't work, certainly not now while we lack complete frame data for the step-dodges (not the rolls obviously). Maybe at some point in the far future, people with perfect technical skills will be able to use the vulnerability frames to guarantee KOs with the dragoon, but for right now...

Nobody knows enough to do that, so functionally speaking, you need a persistent attack to counter spot dodges.

Most of the cast has a counter to Hammers, unless you meant actual counterattacks like Marth's vB. They're also easy to avoid by hogging the edge, since the Hammer user can't very well jump down to get you. It could be argued they disrupt the flow of the match, but they certainly don't "break" anything.

I mean the actual counter-attacks, Primarily Marth's and Ike's, but I haven't really tested how well the other counters function against the hammer, I suspect Lucario will also have the same issue though.

Basically, it destroys the risk/reward balance, because the predictable attack allows them to offensively counter the hammers (in other words, pursue and force a countered attack). This means that the hammer appearing is a heavy advantage for such characters, because no matter who gets it, the Marth/Ike user gets the advantage.

 

[batsman415]

After playing a few 1v1 rounds (items in OP disabled on Smashville, 4 stock), and I must say that nothing really stood out to me. I did learn that the hot head can be annoying as hell, but no item stood out as being unfair. i was on the watch for hammers, but i didnt get any in the four rounds i played. The dragoon appeared in two of the matches, and both times it took a good while before someone assembled all three parts, but when it happened both times it led to a kill. each match only had one kill caused by an item, and during each of these kills the player was already over 60 percent. The starman did change one of the fights a bit though. Somebody got the starman, and they easily racked up damage and got a kill with it.which leads me to think the starman may require some more testing.

I also played 3 rounds of 2v2( items in Op disabled on Smashville, 4 stock), and during all three rounds there was a final smash that led to the death of a team mate. The dragoon appeared during every round, but it did not get assembled during any of them. once again no hammers appeared, so i dint get to see what happened with them.

 

[Jack Kieser]

So, I went ahead and posted a stage listing in the 'ISP' online tournament thread. It is BY NO MEANS an official listing or anything. We're still going to discuss stages at a later date (read: when we all decide on an item standard), so look forward to that.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Just thought I'd inform you guys of this, since it's been a while since we've had any new information in the thread. I'm rather surprised, but it seems as though your tournament thread in 'Online Tournament Listings' has been stickied! Thanks to this, we now have (what seems to be) a permanent gathering place in 'OLT' for 'ISP' related happenings, which is awesome. We're gaining more support all the time, too (5000+ views? Awesome.).

To try to get the ball rolling in here again, I'm going to spend time doing a few more tests and then alter the test format a little so that we can begin discussing stage bans and counterpicks. After that... we'll have an official standard, guys. Almost there.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Dude, what happened to this? Are you guys done making a ruleset? I ask because there have been some item threads popping up again and it reminded me that we do in fact have a group of people working on this.

Also, I heard that EVO is debating whether or not to include items in their tournament. In the event that items are indeed included, I think it would be a very valuable source of information and would definately be a good place to rally support.

 

[SketchHurricane]

So far all the tests I've seen are CPU based, has anyone been doing any real 1v1's? I'd be willing to test this with a friend, but it might not be before the tourney...

 

[SketchHurricane]

While I'm here, I might as well throw in my 2 cents on each item.
Before that, a few links

An article proposing an item list
Smash Wiki's Item list for reference (apparently missing the Freezie, Shell and Laser...)

--------------------------
1v1 Item List Proposal
--------------------------
Quick Look (minus undecided items)
Beam Sword
Fan
Home-run Bat
Lip's Stick
Mr. Saturn
Star-rod
Green Shell


No Smash Ball ( see: Why is everyone so opposed to having Smash Balls in competitive play? )

No helper items (Poke-ball, Assist Trophy)
For obvious reasons. Essentially it creates a 2v1 scenario, not to mention the fact that many of the "helpers" are just too broken iin a 1v1 scenario (when they have only one target to focus on).

No redundant items (Fire-flower, Banana Peel)
I'm against these items simply because they take away from the unique ability of some characters. The fire-flower is basically Bowser/Charizard's flame, the banana is Diddy's. I left out the Freezie/Franklin Badge/Pitfall because while they mimic other moves, they behave differently enough to warrant discussion.

No healing items (Food, Maximum Tomato, Heart Container)
I'm sure all would agree on the tomato and heart, but what about food? IIRC, you only get 4% per item which seems paltry. However, I'm against anything that gives "free" results (in others words, no work required). Basically you get free health, which is in contrast to Ness/Lucas' absorption which takes timing and foresight to land.

No state-altering items (Bunny Hood, Metal Box, Spicy Curry, Mushroom/Poison Mushroom, Hammer/Golden Hammer, Starman, Lightning, Timer, Smoke Bomb)
My main reason for banning these is because often times the altered state can be detrimental to the user (note the "backfiring" items), and this point is given weight simply by the fact that these items can be picked up by accident, and aren't discardable. The strategic uses of the items can obviously be argued for, but the key words "accidental" and "unreverseable" (save for time) overshadow the uses IMO. In the Starman's case, pure invincibility is obviously broken. In the Timer's case, we have the equivalent of a guaranteed kill for the user.

No explosives (Motion-sensor, Bob-omb, Deku Nut, Gooey Bomb, Blast Box)
These items are simply too powerful, often resulting in one-hit kills. It should be noted that the Deku Nut has an indirect stun property (when whiffed) that could be looked at, but it still has the explosive direct-hit property.

No item containers (Barrel, Capsule, Crate, Party Ball)
An effort to reduce randomness and the effect of having gratuitous amounts of items out at once.

Most striking items (Beam Sword, Fan, Home-run Bat, Lip's Stick, Mr. Saturn, Star-rod, Green Shell)
This right here is the bread and butter of item play. Pure striking-implement goodness makes for the most balanced items in the list. There are a few special cases that appear below.


Undecided
------------
Bumper
I'm actually all for this one, as the strategic implications of a properly placed bumper could be very fun and interesting (read: the ultimate edge-guard). This is balanced by the fact that placing it correctly could be a challenge in the heat of battle. I left it undecided because it's somewhat of an indirect helper item, and needs testing. Leaning yes.

Freezie
It's a fairly tame item, but it does lock up the opponent. Not as broken as the Pit-fall, but I didn't want to just toss it in the "striking item" section since it does have special properties. Leaning yes.

Sandbag
I like this one as well as the bumper for it's indirect applications (basically a shield to hide behind in the face of projectiles/other items). One might argue that it's boring or fairly useless, but I think it's worth testing. Leaning yes.

Pitfall
Could have put it in "redundant" but it's a bit different since it can be thrown. It takes forever and a day to mash out of, so it can almost be considered a one-hit kill for certain characters with devastating smashes/specials. But it can be avoided, and I think even caught. Needs testing. Leaning no.

Dragoon
It's a one-hit kill, which almost immediately bans it. However, you possibly have to work hard to collect all three items, plus it can be dodged.

Hothead
At first I had this lumped in with the helper items. But on second thought, it's really not that bad. It has a set pattern which can be easily seen and planned for. It also has strategic implications based on the fact that it can be placed on the stage or on platforms, and attacking it to make it bigger is an option for the user. Could be fun.

Super Scope
Here you have the obvious power, vs the fact that it can be dodged/reflected/absorbed.

Laser
Leaning towards no on this one. Although carrying the opponent off the edge requires timing, said timing isn't all that difficult...

Warp Star
One of the few items with a hard-to-classify effect (striking? explosive?). Needs testing.

Spring
This is like a less useful version of the bumper IMO. If it's on its side, it acts like the bumper, but properly placed it becomes an arguably useless jumping device. Leaning towards no because the bumper could easily fill this items shoes, but you never know...

Cracker Launcher
In the same boat as the super-scope, except the power of this is balanced also by the fact that it is a bit hard to aim at times.

Franklin Badge
One that I could have put in the "redundant list". Basically an auto reflect a la the Spanimals, and Link/Pit to a degree. Could also be considered a "state altering" item since you cant discard it. I guess anything anti-campy is a good thing...

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, things have really slowed down lately; I've been trying to get people together to do some human testing (I have a 1v1 set to post... but I'm tired, so I'll do it later), which is sketchy because I have few people here willing to play Smash with me. This weekend I'll be busy with our first tournament test (I can't wait to see how that turns out). The EVO thing is really intriguing... I'll have to look into that.

 

[Twin Dreams]

While I'm here, I might as well throw in my 2 cents on each item.
Before that, a few links

An article proposing an item list
Smash Wiki's Item list for reference (apparently missing the Freezie, Shell and Laser...)

--------------------------
1v1 Item List Proposal
--------------------------
Quick Look (minus undecided items)
Beam Sword
Fan
Home-run Bat
Lip's Stick
Mr. Saturn
Star-rod
Green Shell

Undecided
------------
Bumper
I'm actually all for this one, as the strategic implications of a properly placed bumper could be very fun and interesting (read: the ultimate edge-guard). This is balanced by the fact that placing it correctly could be a challenge in the heat of battle. I left it undecided because it's somewhat of an indirect helper item, and needs testing. Leaning yes.

Freezie
It's a fairly tame item, but it does lock up the opponent. Not as broken as the Pit-fall, but I didn't want to just toss it in the "striking item" section since it does have special properties. Leaning yes.

Sandbag
I like this one as well as the bumper for it's indirect applications (basically a shield to hide behind in the face of projectiles/other items). One might argue that it's boring or fairly useless, but I think it's worth testing. Leaning yes.

Dragoon
It's a one-hit kill, which almost immediately bans it. However, you possibly have to work hard to collect all three items, plus it can be dodged. Leaning no.

Pitfall
Could have put it in "redundant" but it's a bit different since it can be thrown. It takes forever and a day to mash out of, so it can almost be considered a one-hit kill for certain characters with devastating smashes/specials. But it can be avoided, and I think even caught. Needs testing. Leaning no.

Cloaking Device
Being invisible has both and advantage and disadvantage to the user that would bring skill of use into play. I will defer to the thread for testing/opinions.

Super Scope
Here you have the obvious power, vs the fact that it can be dodged/reflected/absorbed.

Laser
Leaning towards no on this one. Although carrying the opponent off the edge requires timing, said timing isn't all that difficult...

Warp Star
One of the few items with a hard-to-classify effect (striking? explosive?). Needs testing.

Spring
This is like a less useful version of the bumper IMO. If it's on its side, it acts like the bumper, but properly placed it becomes an arguably useless jumping device. Leaning towards no because the bumper could easily fill this items shoes, but you never know...

Cracker Launcher
In the same boat as the super-scope, except the power of this is balanced also by the fact that it is a bit hard to aim at times.

Franklin Badge
One that I could have put in the "redundant list". Basically an auto reflect a la the Spanimals, and Link/Pit to a degree. Could also be considered a "state altering" item since you cant discard it. I guess anything anti-campy is a good thing...

Bumper seems too powerful in my opinion.
Dragoon should be banned.
Cloaking Device should be banned.
Cracker Launcher should probably go.
Franklin Badge should be banned.




The whole reason why items are not allowed is because of them being random. So, to allow items, the ones on the list should not create a huge advantage. More importantly, if someone is recovering, they shouldn't automatically be screwed because the game picked 0 instead of 1 and dropped an item on my opponent that won't let me recover.

 

[Jack Kieser]

This is sometimes a hard concept to apply (especially after the item-less years we've had with Melee), but I'll try to explain this correctly. There are a couple of nuances and purposes behind allowing items in a tournament setting.

First of all, the concept of 'random' and how it affects the outcome of battles. As far as most people are concerned, any random variables at all are unacceptable, and thus randomness should be taken down to as-close-to-0 levels as possible, whereas the people involved here recognize that randomness can be seen as just something else to deal with and not necessarily as a bad thing. Not everyone can/will agree with this, and this is the largest barrier we have; it can be a little harsh, but if something being random is a problem, then this project probably isn't for you. Yes, the chance that (for instance) a bumper will spawn during your recovery allowing the opponent to (essentially) perfect edgeguard you is there... but we view these things as happening sparsely enough to be tolerated (on the low setting, any particular item has an especially low chance to spawn, so camping for a particular item is unrealistic).

The concept of 'advantage' is also something that grates on people. Our aim is to ban items that are uncounterable or give such an advantage that there is basically no risk-reward system in effect. That's why the Dragoon is allowed, for instance; once a player has practiced enough, not only will it be exceedingly difficult for any one player to gather all three pieces, but we have to assume that each player will have practiced enough to know how to dodge a shot (which isn't difficult to do). Risk/reward stays intact and, even though the Dragoon holder is at an advantage, it isn't an unconquerable one. Curry, on the other hand, is so fast and does damage in such a low-risk way that a completely unskilled person can effectively use it (the angle that the fireballs travel at makes it so that, once trapped, the opponent will continue taking constant damage even if the user isn't moving), and thus it is (so far) banned. Items will give an advantage: this is their purpose. To try to reduce the inherent advantage they give is not what we are aiming to do; we are trying to recognize items that break the balance of the risk/reward system and disable only those items.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You guys do know that the cloaking device also prevents you from taking damage right?

 

[Jack Kieser]

You guys do know that the Cloaking Device is only in Melee, right?

 

[SketchHurricane]

Gah, it was in the exceeding incorrect list on SmashWiki. Kinda funny how I didn't realize that on my own, shows how much I play with items I guess

 

[Twin Dreams]

You know that the dragoon is impossible to dodge unless you can predict the future and can guess when the opponent will use it.


If you guess wrong? Instant Death.



Would it be fair if Dragoon pieces kept "randomly" falling on your opponent the duration of the match? Perhaps you get knocked away and they spawn near him. Would you want that to happen if you had money on the line?

 

[adumbrodeus]

You know that the dragoon is impossible to dodge unless you can predict the future and can guess when the opponent will use it.

Not really.

Have you ever tried spamming spot-dodging against somebody using a dragoon?

For reference I am referring to the dodge where you hold the shield button and press down on the control stick.

The invincibility frames are enough and the cool down is short enough the just by spamming it I have 100% dodge ratio since adopting the technique.

No guessing required, just spam.

 

[DippnDots]

Not really.

Have you ever tried spamming spot-dodging against somebody using a dragoon?

For reference I am referring to the dodge where you hold the shield button and press down on the control stick.

The invincibility frames are enough and the cool down is short enough the just by spamming it I have 100% dodge ratio since adopting the technique.

No guessing required, just spam.

Playing against idiots will allow idiotic strategies to work.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Not really.

Have you ever tried spamming spot-dodging against somebody using a dragoon?

For reference I am referring to the dodge where you hold the shield button and press down on the control stick.

The invincibility frames are enough and the cool down is short enough the just by spamming it I have 100% dodge ratio since adopting the technique.

No guessing required, just spam.

I seriously doubt it would be hard for the opponent to learn to time the cool-down. Once that happens, it's back to square one.

After reading some replies, I think Dragoon is pretty much out of the question. At first, I gave it a chance because I can be dodged, and it can at times be hard to collect all three. But those points don't really justify an instant kill. The simple fact that it is indeed possible for the items to fall in your lap pretty much justifies the ban.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Is the repeated fan jab an infinite? Certain characters jab so quickly with it I don't know if you can DI out of it

 

[adumbrodeus]

Playing against idiots will allow idiotic strategies to work.

Look, if it wasn't actually effective, would I get 100% dodge rate? It shouldn't matter who I was playing against.

Eventually somebody would've gotten me with the dragoon if there's a significant period without invincibility.

I seriously doubt it would be hard for the opponent to learn to time the cool-down. Once that happens, it's back to square one.

All two frames without invincibility...

Just from my dodge rate you should be able to glean that the timing is near impossible.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have the test results from our first 'ISP'-sanctioned tournament! Without any further ado (or laziness on my part), let's get crackin'!

'Item Standard Play' 1v1 Tournament Test Results


Parameters:
Human Trial via Online Tournament
1v1 Single Elimination
3 Stock with a Five minute time limit (ties determined by lives, then by %)
Best of three, with best of five Finals

Item Settings:
Low Spawn Rate
Items Disabled - (Smash Balls) (Assist Trophy) (Pokeball) (Container) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Superspicy Curry) (Bomb-omb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut) (Team Healer)

Stage Settings:
Stages Disabled - (Lylat Cruise) (Rumble Falls) (Warioware) (New Pork City) (The Summit) (Mario Bros.) (75m) (Temple) (Hanenbow)

Number of entrants: 11

Entrant List:
Dinner
Firebert
neo_sporin
Erik McLennan
Jack Kieser
Mobious-1
richie137
Mischief Maker
DragoonXD
Olimarman
Irish

Final Results:

1: Mobious-1
2: neo_sporin
3: DragoonXD
4: Jack Kieser
5: Irish
6: Dinner
7: Erik McLennan
8: Mischief Maker
9: Firebert
10: richie137
11: Olimarman

Conclusions:

This was our first live tournament, and for as hectic as match scheduling got at the beginning, I feel this was a complete success. Unfortunately, we couldn't get any capture equipment running and because we didn't want to be restricted to a 3 minute limit just so we could save the replays, we couldn't get any video of the matches, but I made sure to collect impressions from a few of the players. Universally, the only two items that had an effect on the outcome of the sets were the Dragoon and the fan.

The Dragoon is an interesting item in that there is a lot of effort that goes into assembling it and (in a live match, as opposed to an online one) dodging it is simply a matter of baiting a shot into an airdodge or a spot dodge... but there is the undeniable fact that the most common used strategy when dealing with the Dragoon is to gather all three pieces onto the playing field in some manner, KO an opponent to collect the remaining pieces, then get a 0% or low% kill directly afterwards. This is simply unacceptable, as it is too strong a strategy and it completely destroys the concept of risk/reward, which is paramount in item balancing.

The fan's problem is much more simple than the Dragoon's: the speed at which you are allowed to swing the fan. Fan swings do little damage, but trap the opponent, not knocking back but knocking closer to ensure the success of the next blow. This allows the fan to essentially become a psuedo-infinite, one which is incredibly hard to block since a solitary strike ensures the fan to succeed from then on out and the fan eats through shields at an alarming rate. I was hoping to see an instance of DI'ing out of the fan's strikes or to see a counter to the fan's use, but there simply is none. The fan takes little to no skill to use, and is nearly impossible to stop, which again destroys any semblance of risk/reward.

The Cracker Launcher had one instance where it tipped the scales in favor of a particular fighter, but unfortunately due to the lack of video I can't verify the degree to which it influenced the fight; it is very possible that it caused an imbalance, but most agree that due to the difficulty in aiming and the ease of air/spot dodging the shots, the Cracker Launcher has enough risks (lack of second jump, slow aiming speed) to justify its inclusion. This is one item I can see being left up to individual tournament organizers, but it certainly isn't one that would be missed if the project deems it broken.

According to player testimony, no other items had a significant effect on battles. The mushrooms were rarely used because of the high risk of mistaking a Super Mushroom for a Poison Mushroom, which applied to the Lightning as well. Even Super Hammers were useless against a skilled ledgestaller, as the new length of edgegrab invincibility completely destroys the chances of a hammer strike hitting a skilled opponent.

I plan on holding a live tournament here in Dallas soon to test a final set of 1v1 items, which will consist of the set used for this test without the Dragoon or Fan. I have high hopes that this set may be one that is balanced enough to withstand the rigors of tournament play.

 

[Sliq]

My suggestion for item tournaments is to put them at off.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Sliq, with all due respect... read the OP. It has been said... MANY TIMES... not to flame in here. At all. Watch it.

 

[Sliq]

Sliq, with all due respect... read the OP. It has been said... MANY TIMES... not to flame in here. At all. Watch it.

I'm not flaming. It is a legitimate opinion, and I'm not flaming anyone at all. The fact that you try to tarnish my integrity by spreading these flagrant lies is flaming, and I've reported you for it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I do believe flaming is generally considered 'posting remarks that are intended to incite argument,' which is exactly what you did... oh, wait, I'm sorry. That's not right at all. That's trolling, which is looked down upon much more than flaming.

[NOTE: This thread concerns offical rulesets and playstyle discussion for the creation of a unified approved item listing for item-based tournament play. This thread is NOT for:

*flaming
*discussion of whether items (in general) are tournament viable
*discussion concerning the 'randomness' of items
*trying to replace any form or facet of current, established tournament play
*etc.

All of the above will not be tolerated. If you are looking to discuss whether items should be allowed in tournaments, you have come to the wrong place.]

So, I gave plenty of warning. What you posted directly violates what has been established in the OP, and adds literally nothing to the discussion.