adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
First time playing brawl was: No items! Fox only! Final Destination!When you first started playing Brawl... Did you have all the items set?
Or am I the only one.
Soon to be replaced by: No Items! MK only! Battlefield!
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
First time playing brawl was: No items! Fox only! Final Destination!When you first started playing Brawl... Did you have all the items set?
Or am I the only one.
Actually, no. The MSB won't explode until it is set, and the Gooey Bomb only runs the risk of killing at 85% and above. Neither of them pose enough of a threat to justify banning as it stands.I don't understand some of the explosives being allowed.
Don't they all do the dreaded bobomb thing?
That's how I learned how to play Melee too. I never turn the items off.When you first started playing Brawl... Did you have all the items set?
Or am I the only one.
Gooey Bomb can definitely explode with a not-so-well placed A attack, and I promise that under unknown circumstances, an MSB that was falling from the sky and not yet set was blown up with a slash from Marth's blade once. In general, however, a non-set MSB isn't something to worry about.Actually, no. The MSB won't explode until it is set, and the Gooey Bomb only runs the risk of killing at 85% and above. Neither of them pose enough of a threat to justify banning as it stands.
Balanced between chars... no. Balanced between players to a degree where skill is the deciding factor, to a great degree yes.I heard about a format where people used items, and after a bit of excitement after hearing the news, I am met with disappointment after reading the first post. I'm disappointed that people are still using the word "balanced" as if the game was ever designed to be as such.
Which is why Gooey bomb is a counter-pick. Granted, I think a ban is warranted, but still.Gooey Bomb can definitely explode with a not-so-well placed A attack, and I promise that under unknown circumstances, an MSB that was falling from the sky and not yet set was blown up with a slash from Marth's blade once. In general, however, a non-set MSB isn't something to worry about.
Oh yeah, and with Gooey Bombs, if your characters has got one stickied on him/her and isn't fast enough to sticky it to your opponent, you can roll (and maybe spot dodge) away from the explosion. That move is quite epic for its cause.
I think this was the rule set evo ran with. http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=155899I'm pretty sure that EVO didn't have a counterpick system in place. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.
Don't think it's really possible... FFA has too many balance issues right from the beginning.Can you please make a free for all balanced items section? One for 4 characters and one for 3 characters. I do a lot more "Free for All"s with my pals than I do teams. I've been using the 2v2 item ruleset for free for alls so far but something feels a bit off.
Actually, there won't be a SBR approved item ruleset. I tried getting ahold of some SBR members to see if (since they are done with their own ruleset for now) they were going to use any of our data/need any of our help in the creation of their own ruleset, and I got a response saying that, while the work here was taken notice of, the SBR didn't want to promote item play in any way. Basically, the only action that will be taken towards the project in any official manner has already been done (AZ and Panda helping to establish two of our threads).I can't wait till the SRB ruleset comes out. I'm very interested how they will take into the consideration of items and item play as according to this list which I'm sure the SRB will use as much research has gone into it.
That's ********....They can come out with a ruleset without promoting item play.Actually, there won't be a SBR approved item ruleset. I tried getting ahold of some SBR members to see if (since they are done with their own ruleset for now) they were going to use any of our data/need any of our help in the creation of their own ruleset, and I got a response saying that, while the work here was taken notice of, the SBR didn't want to promote item play in any way.
No, the fact that something is less competitive doesn't encourage making rulesets that are even less competitive.Unlike melee, brawl is much less technical and serious which actually encourages a looser style of play which could in fact include items once and a while.
Shame on you SBR. Brawl is different than melee and competitive gaming can be played in more than one way. I am slightly dissapointed.
Huge contradictions here. If they are used for fun tournaments and not competitive ones, they would actually ruin a competitive tournament experience. Nobody is gonna say, o I lost because of this and that but I still had fun, competitive is about winning.I would be fine with that. Item play should only be played for fun in tournaments and don't be afraid to play with items. You Can have a legit tourney with prize money if you play with this list. It is a legit list and a lot of research has gone into it. The SBR should be more respectful to ground breaking threads like this. Item Play was never even considered an option in melee. The fact that people accepting and acknowledging this thread and list as legit due to the amount of research put into it means that unlike melee, items do not totally ruin competitive play in brawl as long as they are under some sort of control as seen here.
Less technical =/ less serious. It's still the same money I'm putting into it and I don't wanne lose my money because of random stuff. If I want to gamble I go to poker tournaments, not smash ones.Unlike melee, brawl is much less technical and serious which actually encourages a looser style of play which could in fact include items once and a while.
Shame on you SBR. Brawl is different than melee and competitive gaming can be played in more than one way. I am slightly dissapointed.
A couple of reasons:How the hell is the Dragoon not yet banned? Once one Dragoon part has spawned, it stops all other items from spawning (with random exceptions), which means that there will be a completed Dragoon in that match unless it ends before that happens.
The Dragoon activates on one frame, which means you have to dodge it on prediction. And if you predict wrong, well, you're open and will die. Also, it's a OHKO. How is it not yet banned?!
Um... yeah... on prediction. It comes out on one frame. It's unblockable. There is no way to block or dodge it on reaction, you have to literally predict when to dodge or roll. And all dodges and rolls have startup frames, so you have to actually do it several frames in advance.A ) there are many different ways to beat the Dragoon. One way is use of regular dodges (air, spot, roll).
The cursor moves faster than anyone can possibly move. So you cannot outrun it. The Dragoonist just chases you and you have to guess when to dodge it.One way is creative running around. The cursor stays in one place on the screen and the user cannot move screen orientation, only cursor orientation.
Yes, because you'll be on the ledge every time someone gets the Dragoon. Or have the time to run there. And yes, because ledgestalling doesn't leave you open at all.If the runner knows what he is doing, he can move the screen opposite of the cursor and mess with targeting. One way is just being creative; for instance, trying to bait an attack by ledgestalling.
No, they will not. Because the Dragoonist will also be well versed enough to not let himself be dodged consistently.the item is counterpick. If we go by the highest level of play argument, both players will be well versed enough to either dodge or hit consistantly.
One failed prediction should not result in a OHKO at 0%! From an item! Pray tell, why aren't Deku Nuts allowed then? They're weaker and they don't force prediction!Prediction and mindgaming will be the deciding factor in those matches, which is A-OK. Plus, someone has to be bold enough to turn the thing on in the first place.
But the Dragoon prevents any other items from spawning. Sometime during the match, the Dragoon will be built unless both players run the match out without building it. Also, there's the "Loser gets benefits"-BS.it's actually quite easy to keep the Dragoon from being built if you don't get hit (and if 'don't get grabbed' is good enough for grab games, then 'don't get hit' is good enough for Dragoon games). If you have to get hit, it's actually best to get hit off the stage (not KO'ed) so that the piece will fall into oblivion and be forced to respawn.
I'm sorry, then why are any of the items on that list banned? After all, we'll never learn how to use/beate them if they're banned, right? So let's just not ban anything 'til 3 years down the road!if the Dragoon is flat-out banned now, people will never learn how to use/beat it in the first place.
Is that really how it works? I always wondered about that.If someone is 1 stock behind, two hard Smashes might not knock a Dragoon piece out of them but one who's ahead but lose a piece through simple jabs.
This is just horrible reasoning on all fronts. Awarding a player with a 0HKO for just happening to be in the right spot to catch Dragoon pieces is in no way conducive to how skilled that player is. The whole gist of ISP is supposed to be to balance the items you include by getting rid of the ones that are utterly overwhelming (Smash Balls, Dragoon). So basically said player gets a really good chance at taking a stock off the other person by just being there when Dragoon pieces spawn.A couple of reasons:
A ) there are many different ways to beat the Dragoon. One way is use of regular dodges (air, spot, roll). One way is creative running around. The cursor stays in one place on the screen and the user cannot move screen orientation, only cursor orientation. If the runner knows what he is doing, he can move the screen opposite of the cursor and mess with targeting. One way is just being creative; for instance, trying to bait an attack by ledgestalling.
B ) the item is counterpick. If we go by the highest level of play argument, both players will be well versed enough to either dodge or hit consistantly. Prediction and mindgaming will be the deciding factor in those matches, which is A-OK. Plus, someone has to be bold enough to turn the thing on in the first place.
C ) it's actually quite easy to keep the Dragoon from being built if you don't get hit (and if 'don't get grabbed' is good enough for grab games, then 'don't get hit' is good enough for Dragoon games). If you have to get hit, it's actually best to get hit off the stage (not KO'ed) so that the piece will fall into oblivion and be forced to respawn.
D ) if the Dragoon is flat-out banned now, people will never learn how to use/beat it in the first place. MK's Shuttle Loop is crazy strong, comes out very fast, KO's easily, and can be spammed, but we tell people to learn how to deal. Same basic concept, just on a different scale, but that's why it's counterpick.
This is BS. Did you do this "extensive testing" with all other items? Did you have 29 different tournaments with Smash Balls on with Smash Balls tearing the scene up? Or Deku Nuts? Maximum Tomatos and Heart Containers? Mushrooms? Starman? Timer? Fan? Lightning? Golden Hammer?Well then, I guess after a few tournaments, it will be proven that people can't deal with the Dragoon and it will be banned. But, as is par for the course here on SWF, we'll need the Dragoon to tear up tournaments/make it so that CP'ing Dragoon means insta-win, have a majority of ISP-using TO's ban it of their own free will, or have a significant number of ISP-supporting/using players call for a ban before it's flat out banned. Until then, it will stay on CP, because until now (that is to say, until the complaints of someone who has on many occasions stated that he doesn't even care) no one has seriously complained about the Dragoon being CP.
I'm sorry if I missed that little tidbit (which you haven't thrown around that much since I can barely recall you ever mentioning it) when you're running all over the place defending items every time they come up and, I don't know, starting this thread. You're just a noble Devil's Advocate I guess.Sorry, Yuna, but if you had paid any attention at all to me in the past, you'd have read the posts I've made saying that I don't like playing with items on. I really don't like any of them... but some people do.
Evidently not as the same crap that was there months ago is still there despite you having no good defense for them.The fact stands that people are saying the exact same crap about the stage choices/the Bowser clause in the SBR rules, and if 'we didn't want to interfere too much right now' is good enough for them, it's good enough for us. This is a living format, as I've said before; things change as they need to change.
As opposed to Dragoons which will magically whiff each time?There are reasons for everything. Deku Nuts can effect the game on spawn drastically, so they are banned.
I'm sorry, we're assuming all item players are idiots who will just stand back and let the AT's/Pokémons do their thing now? It's pretty hard to dodge items and ATs if you're also being chased by the opponent. It becomes 2vs1.AT's are allowed because there are no broken ones; as Keits demonstrated in those vids I posted with the list, each and every one can be dodged, and most pretty easily. Pokemon work basically the same way.
It always sucks to KO your teammate. It doesn't make SBs less bad. They still spawn quite frequently, are gamebreaking and stupidly good.Either way, the risk to using either of them in 2v2 (as that is the only format they are allowed in as of now) is pretty great as KO'ing your partner sucks pretty badly, and (especially with the 'broken ones') that is always a risk to be considered. We're just giving the players the freedom to decide for themselves if that is a risk they are willing to take,
What the hell is the risk of turning the Dragoon on? "The opponent might get it"?!just like the Dragoon being able to be used on you if you CP it.
As opposed to you, I can be objective. I'm not *****ing because of a need for purity. As I've already said one zillion times, I could care less if some people play with items on. In fact, I've clocked more time with items on than most people on Smashboards.Stop being so b*tchy about your precious purity in matches; the people who accept item play don't see it as a problem, and either way, you're not playing anyway, so who cares. If the people who play ISP want something changed, we'll change it, but for you to expect them to change anything because you (a non-item player) say so and want it to be so is ridiculous. Stop trying to force your opinion on people.