Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[adumbrodeus]

When you first started playing Brawl... Did you have all the items set?

Or am I the only one.

First time playing brawl was: No items! Fox only! Final Destination!


Soon to be replaced by: No Items! MK only! Battlefield!

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't understand some of the explosives being allowed.

Don't they all do the dreaded bobomb thing?

Actually, no. The MSB won't explode until it is set, and the Gooey Bomb only runs the risk of killing at 85% and above. Neither of them pose enough of a threat to justify banning as it stands.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

I heard about a format where people used items, and after a bit of excitement after hearing the news, I am met with disappointment after reading the first post. I'm disappointed that people are still using the word "balanced" as if the game was ever designed to be as such.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

When you first started playing Brawl... Did you have all the items set?

Or am I the only one.

That's how I learned how to play Melee too. I never turn the items off.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, AbsoluteZero0K, I'm sorry we disappointed you, but hey, you're free to run tournaments however you please. Our item data can always be used as a solid basis for experimentation, so experiment away.

Oh, and speaking of... I updated the Official ISP ruleset to jive with the release of the SBR rules! Go to our thread in Tourney Disc. to check it out (link in this thread's OP)!

 

[MarKO X]

Actually, no. The MSB won't explode until it is set, and the Gooey Bomb only runs the risk of killing at 85% and above. Neither of them pose enough of a threat to justify banning as it stands.

Gooey Bomb can definitely explode with a not-so-well placed A attack, and I promise that under unknown circumstances, an MSB that was falling from the sky and not yet set was blown up with a slash from Marth's blade once. In general, however, a non-set MSB isn't something to worry about.

Oh yeah, and with Gooey Bombs, if your characters has got one stickied on him/her and isn't fast enough to sticky it to your opponent, you can roll (and maybe spot dodge) away from the explosion. That move is quite epic for its cause.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I heard about a format where people used items, and after a bit of excitement after hearing the news, I am met with disappointment after reading the first post. I'm disappointed that people are still using the word "balanced" as if the game was ever designed to be as such.

Balanced between chars... no. Balanced between players to a degree where skill is the deciding factor, to a great degree yes.

Sure, it's got issues, but it certainly is a viable competitive game.

Gooey Bomb can definitely explode with a not-so-well placed A attack, and I promise that under unknown circumstances, an MSB that was falling from the sky and not yet set was blown up with a slash from Marth's blade once. In general, however, a non-set MSB isn't something to worry about.

Oh yeah, and with Gooey Bombs, if your characters has got one stickied on him/her and isn't fast enough to sticky it to your opponent, you can roll (and maybe spot dodge) away from the explosion. That move is quite epic for its cause.

Which is why Gooey bomb is a counter-pick. Granted, I think a ban is warranted, but still.


Regardless, MSB's affect both chars, so KOs with it don't occur randomly. They're the result of consciously forcing your opponent into it, at least at the tournament playlevel.

 

[Sharkz]

Since EVO I hadn't really given a lot of tdhought to item play, but now I really like the idea of it. (This was probably nintendo's idea in the first place though to try to get us to use items) It helps against mismatchups, and IMO makes the game have more mindgames with the risk/reward type play you play with items and to know how to counter what items and how.

Edit: Was the HRB nuetral or counterpick at EVO cause that was the only item I was disappointed in seeing. IMHO it can, like you said, turn the tide to a game and to me it's the only item that you don't have banned that can take skill out of a match, but again that just my opinion

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm pretty sure that EVO didn't have a counterpick system in place. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

 

[Atrion]

I'm pretty sure that EVO didn't have a counterpick system in place. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I think this was the rule set evo ran with. http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=155899

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, no CP'ing of items happened at EVO. Which is interesting, because I made an ISP thread on SRK, and almost everyone involved has lauded the ISP counterpick system.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I think a counterpick for 2v2 would be good for the Smart Bomb, as it has an equal chance of catching your teammate, and maybe yourself, in the explosion. But for 1v1, yeah, its totally broken.

 

[Julz]

Can you please make a free for all balanced items section? One for 4 characters and one for 3 characters. I do a lot more "Free for All"s with my pals than I do teams. I've been using the 2v2 item ruleset for free for alls so far but something feels a bit off.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Can you please make a free for all balanced items section? One for 4 characters and one for 3 characters. I do a lot more "Free for All"s with my pals than I do teams. I've been using the 2v2 item ruleset for free for alls so far but something feels a bit off.

Don't think it's really possible... FFA has too many balance issues right from the beginning.

 

[Swordplay]

I can't wait till the SRB ruleset comes out. I'm very interested how they will take into the consideration of items and item play as according to this list which I'm sure the SRB will use as much research has gone into it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I can't wait till the SRB ruleset comes out. I'm very interested how they will take into the consideration of items and item play as according to this list which I'm sure the SRB will use as much research has gone into it.

Actually, there won't be a SBR approved item ruleset. I tried getting ahold of some SBR members to see if (since they are done with their own ruleset for now) they were going to use any of our data/need any of our help in the creation of their own ruleset, and I got a response saying that, while the work here was taken notice of, the SBR didn't want to promote item play in any way. Basically, the only action that will be taken towards the project in any official manner has already been done (AZ and Panda helping to establish two of our threads).

So, don't hold your breath expecting the SBR to say anything concerning item play (other than the obligatory 'SRK is teh dumbz' that always seems to come up ); we're on our own with this one.

 

[Swordplay]

Actually, there won't be a SBR approved item ruleset. I tried getting ahold of some SBR members to see if (since they are done with their own ruleset for now) they were going to use any of our data/need any of our help in the creation of their own ruleset, and I got a response saying that, while the work here was taken notice of, the SBR didn't want to promote item play in any way.

That's ********....They can come out with a ruleset without promoting item play.

They could just say something like. "These will be the rules for any tournament wanting to use items however they will not in anyway have any effect on tier lists nor will they have any effect on SRB discussion making."

I would be fine with that. Item play should only be played for fun in tournaments and don't be afraid to play with items. You Can have a legit tourney with prize money if you play with this list. It is a legit list and a lot of research has gone into it. The SBR should be more respectful to ground breaking threads like this. Item Play was never even considered an option in melee. The fact that people accepting and acknowledging this thread and list as legit due to the amount of research put into it means that unlike melee, items do not totally ruin competitive play in brawl as long as they are under some sort of control as seen here.

Unlike melee, brawl is much less technical and serious which actually encourages a looser style of play which could in fact include items once and a while.

Shame on you SBR. Brawl is different than melee and competitive gaming can be played in more than one way. I am slightly dissapointed.

 

[Swordplay]

If the SBR is to scarred to promote item play then we should come up with the ruleset for them.

Thankfully we have already done this. Now I hope the SBR will at least acknowledge that ruleset as official.

If they are to scarred to create there own they should at least do that.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, I don't necessarily agree with their decision... but I'll respect it, I suppose. I mean, SWF is their show, and I'm not gonna tell them how they should run it. I do think there wouldn't be any harm in making something official, though, especially considering the frankly embarrassing amount of attention the ISP threads here on SWF have received (something like ~590 posts and ~27,000 views, combined). I think there are enough people interested to have something established as 'official', but hey, that's why I'm not a SBRoomer, I suppose.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Unlike melee, brawl is much less technical and serious which actually encourages a looser style of play which could in fact include items once and a while.

Shame on you SBR. Brawl is different than melee and competitive gaming can be played in more than one way. I am slightly dissapointed.

No, the fact that something is less competitive doesn't encourage making rulesets that are even less competitive.

It's exploding containers (namely the ability to turn them off). That really makes items play practical, albeit, not as much as the other option, but still reasonable.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Both styles have their pros and cons. I don't see why both can't have an official standard, really. Well, other than bias.

 

[Empy]

I would be fine with that. Item play should only be played for fun in tournaments and don't be afraid to play with items. You Can have a legit tourney with prize money if you play with this list. It is a legit list and a lot of research has gone into it. The SBR should be more respectful to ground breaking threads like this. Item Play was never even considered an option in melee. The fact that people accepting and acknowledging this thread and list as legit due to the amount of research put into it means that unlike melee, items do not totally ruin competitive play in brawl as long as they are under some sort of control as seen here.

Huge contradictions here. If they are used for fun tournaments and not competitive ones, they would actually ruin a competitive tournament experience. Nobody is gonna say, o I lost because of this and that but I still had fun, competitive is about winning.

Unlike melee, brawl is much less technical and serious which actually encourages a looser style of play which could in fact include items once and a while.

Shame on you SBR. Brawl is different than melee and competitive gaming can be played in more than one way. I am slightly dissapointed.

Less technical =/ less serious. It's still the same money I'm putting into it and I don't wanne lose my money because of random stuff. If I want to gamble I go to poker tournaments, not smash ones.

And no, competitive gaming can't be played in different ways, 1 is play for fun, 1 is play for money. However, playing for fun =/ competitive.

@ Jack Kieser, just a thought, but maybe you should add what advantage adding items to a tournament has? All I see is stuff about how items can be made to look like they fit in with competitive play but nothing about how they would actually enrich competitive play.

If you don't have something like that competitive players won't go to item tourneys even if there is a standard SBR ruleset for those. Here in the Netherlands there actually was a TO announcing to use some of the items of this thread but since most people didn't want to go anymore it was decided to have players instead of items.

 

[Jack Kieser]

That discussion has already been covered in the original ISP thread that Panda linked to in the OP. I'd put it here, but this thread was made just to discuss the items themselves, not the benefits/rigors of item play in general. I know the other thread is long and frought with flames/peril, but I'd like to keep this thread as clean as I can.

 

[Yuna]

How the hell is the Dragoon not yet banned? Once one Dragoon part has spawned, it stops all other items from spawning (with random exceptions), which means that there will be a completed Dragoon in that match unless it ends before that happens.

The Dragoon activates on one frame, which means you have to dodge it on prediction. And if you predict wrong, well, you're open and will die. Also, it's a OHKO. How is it not yet banned?!

 

[MarKO X]

Prediction is AWESOME!

Like, one time, I spot-dodged a Dragoon. That's is a godly priceless moment, period.

 

[Jack Kieser]

How the hell is the Dragoon not yet banned? Once one Dragoon part has spawned, it stops all other items from spawning (with random exceptions), which means that there will be a completed Dragoon in that match unless it ends before that happens.

The Dragoon activates on one frame, which means you have to dodge it on prediction. And if you predict wrong, well, you're open and will die. Also, it's a OHKO. How is it not yet banned?!

A couple of reasons:

A ) there are many different ways to beat the Dragoon. One way is use of regular dodges (air, spot, roll). One way is creative running around. The cursor stays in one place on the screen and the user cannot move screen orientation, only cursor orientation. If the runner knows what he is doing, he can move the screen opposite of the cursor and mess with targeting. One way is just being creative; for instance, trying to bait an attack by ledgestalling.

B ) the item is counterpick. If we go by the highest level of play argument, both players will be well versed enough to either dodge or hit consistantly. Prediction and mindgaming will be the deciding factor in those matches, which is A-OK. Plus, someone has to be bold enough to turn the thing on in the first place.

C ) it's actually quite easy to keep the Dragoon from being built if you don't get hit (and if 'don't get grabbed' is good enough for grab games, then 'don't get hit' is good enough for Dragoon games). If you have to get hit, it's actually best to get hit off the stage (not KO'ed) so that the piece will fall into oblivion and be forced to respawn.

D ) if the Dragoon is flat-out banned now, people will never learn how to use/beat it in the first place. MK's Shuttle Loop is crazy strong, comes out very fast, KO's easily, and can be spammed, but we tell people to learn how to deal. Same basic concept, just on a different scale, but that's why it's counterpick.

 

[Yuna]

A ) there are many different ways to beat the Dragoon. One way is use of regular dodges (air, spot, roll).

Um... yeah... on prediction. It comes out on one frame. It's unblockable. There is no way to block or dodge it on reaction, you have to literally predict when to dodge or roll. And all dodges and rolls have startup frames, so you have to actually do it several frames in advance.

And what happens if you predict wrong? You're open during the cool down and eat the Dragoon.

One way is creative running around. The cursor stays in one place on the screen and the user cannot move screen orientation, only cursor orientation.

The cursor moves faster than anyone can possibly move. So you cannot outrun it. The Dragoonist just chases you and you have to guess when to dodge it.

If the runner knows what he is doing, he can move the screen opposite of the cursor and mess with targeting. One way is just being creative; for instance, trying to bait an attack by ledgestalling.

Yes, because you'll be on the ledge every time someone gets the Dragoon. Or have the time to run there. And yes, because ledgestalling doesn't leave you open at all.

the item is counterpick. If we go by the highest level of play argument, both players will be well versed enough to either dodge or hit consistantly.

No, they will not. Because the Dragoonist will also be well versed enough to not let himself be dodged consistently.

Prediction and mindgaming will be the deciding factor in those matches, which is A-OK. Plus, someone has to be bold enough to turn the thing on in the first place.

One failed prediction should not result in a OHKO at 0%! From an item! Pray tell, why aren't Deku Nuts allowed then? They're weaker and they don't force prediction!

it's actually quite easy to keep the Dragoon from being built if you don't get hit (and if 'don't get grabbed' is good enough for grab games, then 'don't get hit' is good enough for Dragoon games). If you have to get hit, it's actually best to get hit off the stage (not KO'ed) so that the piece will fall into oblivion and be forced to respawn.

But the Dragoon prevents any other items from spawning. Sometime during the match, the Dragoon will be built unless both players run the match out without building it. Also, there's the "Loser gets benefits"-BS.

If someone is 1 stock behind, two hard Smashes might not knock a Dragoon piece out of them but one who's ahead but lose a piece through simple jabs.

"Don't get hit!" is a BS argument. "Don't get grabbed" is what we tell people who insist on playing matchups where a grab is devastating, telling them tricks to avoid it. It's not going to magically make that 10-0 matchup 5-5, but it'll help.

But it's not a strategy to rely on. We always tell them to first and foremost get a secondary. With the Dragoon, switching secondaries won't help unless it's about who gets items faster.

if the Dragoon is flat-out banned now, people will never learn how to use/beat it in the first place.

I'm sorry, then why are any of the items on that list banned? After all, we'll never learn how to use/beate them if they're banned, right? So let's just not ban anything 'til 3 years down the road!

Those are some BS arguments for keeping the Dragoon in and you know it!

And what hell happened to risk/reward? You risk nothing and your reward is a OHKO at 0%.

 

[petrie911]

If someone is 1 stock behind, two hard Smashes might not knock a Dragoon piece out of them but one who's ahead but lose a piece through simple jabs.

Is that really how it works? I always wondered about that.

Anyways, there are 3 main problems with the Dragoon

1) instant kill if landed
2) long duration of aiming period, quick cursor movement, and 1 frame startup mean dodging is a pure guessing game
3) What I quoted Yuna on. The advantage for being behind should not be an easy OHKO on your opponent.

If the Dragoon's cursor moved more slowly and it gave you only, say 2 seconds to aim before firing automatically, then it might be balanced. But as it stands it seems like too much.

On the other hand, there is the fact that you have to turn it on. Doing so puts you at a grave risk, as your opponent can just as well use the Dragoon on you. But then again, that could apply to any item. I'll stick with banned.

 

[RDK]

A couple of reasons:

A ) there are many different ways to beat the Dragoon. One way is use of regular dodges (air, spot, roll). One way is creative running around. The cursor stays in one place on the screen and the user cannot move screen orientation, only cursor orientation. If the runner knows what he is doing, he can move the screen opposite of the cursor and mess with targeting. One way is just being creative; for instance, trying to bait an attack by ledgestalling.

B ) the item is counterpick. If we go by the highest level of play argument, both players will be well versed enough to either dodge or hit consistantly. Prediction and mindgaming will be the deciding factor in those matches, which is A-OK. Plus, someone has to be bold enough to turn the thing on in the first place.

C ) it's actually quite easy to keep the Dragoon from being built if you don't get hit (and if 'don't get grabbed' is good enough for grab games, then 'don't get hit' is good enough for Dragoon games). If you have to get hit, it's actually best to get hit off the stage (not KO'ed) so that the piece will fall into oblivion and be forced to respawn.

D ) if the Dragoon is flat-out banned now, people will never learn how to use/beat it in the first place. MK's Shuttle Loop is crazy strong, comes out very fast, KO's easily, and can be spammed, but we tell people to learn how to deal. Same basic concept, just on a different scale, but that's why it's counterpick.

This is just horrible reasoning on all fronts. Awarding a player with a 0HKO for just happening to be in the right spot to catch Dragoon pieces is in no way conducive to how skilled that player is. The whole gist of ISP is supposed to be to balance the items you include by getting rid of the ones that are utterly overwhelming (Smash Balls, Dragoon). So basically said player gets a really good chance at taking a stock off the other person by just being there when Dragoon pieces spawn.

And comparing the Dragoon to MK's shuttle loop or the IC infinite is so outlandish it's not even funny. Basically, you're saying the Dragoon is like randomly awarding one player with the ability to shuttle loop or infinite. How does that make sense?

And applying the "don't get grabbed" philosophy to the Dragoon situation is equally flawed. That's for people who whine about the IC being able to infinite them when they consistently use characters that are easily grabbed and infinited. That's not at all applicable to the Dragoon.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well then, I guess after a few tournaments, it will be proven that people can't deal with the Dragoon and it will be banned. But, as is par for the course here on SWF, we'll need the Dragoon to tear up tournaments/make it so that CP'ing Dragoon means insta-win, have a majority of ISP-using TO's ban it of their own free will, or have a significant number of ISP-supporting/using players call for a ban before it's flat out banned. Until then, it will stay on CP, because until now (that is to say, until the complaints of someone who has on many occasions stated that he doesn't even care) no one has seriously complained about the Dragoon being CP.

 

[MarKO X]

Jack, do you REALLY wanna know what I can do with the Dragoon? I'm the one that MADE THIS **** THING BROKEN. Okay, maybe not, but if I can do it, then I'm sure anyone who plays FPS games can, because I SUCK at FPS games and can do this at a rate of saaaaaay, 90%.

I get the Dragoon. My opponent goes crazy and tried all of this random dodging and creative running. That's nice, I just keep the cursor in the middle of the screen. I wait, I wait, and guess what? That set of frames that you're vulnerable after a dodge, roll, land, stop, or anything, and I mean ANYTHING that produces the vulnerability in which you would see it and decide to attack in a normal situation, I quickly aim at the character and fire. OHKO. Easy. Piece of cake.

And I'm probably not the only one that can do it, because, like I said, I suck at FPS games. So yeah, you might need more tourney data on it because obviously no one is truly interested in an items tournament anyway (not to say that I am), but that's my take on the whole Dragoon thing.

 

[Yuna]

Well then, I guess after a few tournaments, it will be proven that people can't deal with the Dragoon and it will be banned. But, as is par for the course here on SWF, we'll need the Dragoon to tear up tournaments/make it so that CP'ing Dragoon means insta-win, have a majority of ISP-using TO's ban it of their own free will, or have a significant number of ISP-supporting/using players call for a ban before it's flat out banned. Until then, it will stay on CP, because until now (that is to say, until the complaints of someone who has on many occasions stated that he doesn't even care) no one has seriously complained about the Dragoon being CP.

This is BS. Did you do this "extensive testing" with all other items? Did you have 29 different tournaments with Smash Balls on with Smash Balls tearing the scene up? Or Deku Nuts? Maximum Tomatos and Heart Containers? Mushrooms? Starman? Timer? Fan? Lightning? Golden Hammer?

Why are you suddenly so over-protective over this one item?

Your reasoning for having Smash Balls on in 2v2 is still BS. "You can hit your teammate". Wow, horrible. You can hit your teammate with any item. Let's turn them all on.

And so what if you can? You can also hit both opponents for a double KO. If you hit all 3, you're still up by one stock. No, "You can hit your teammate" does not fly and I've told you this already.

Your reasoning for allowing ATs and PBs is also total BS. Oh, the broken ones don't appear that often. What happens when they do appear and the opponent gets a totally unfair KO?

This isn't organized at all. This is just you being totally biased and crusading to keep your favourite items in, facts and findings be ****ed. Certain items get banned with little testing but others remain because you just like them. They magically need more testing, for some reason, until such time you decide enough is enough.

The ISP was a good idea. You're, however, a very flawed "leader".

 

[The Real Inferno]

I think what is funny about having the Dragoon as counterpick is there is only a 50/50 chance the dragoon will spawn in a match. The game decides whether or not when the match starts if a dragoon can spawn at all when it is turned on, which means you might turn it on and it doesn't come out. In this case you end up looking like an idiot.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Sorry, Yuna, but if you had paid any attention at all to me in the past, you'd have read the posts I've made saying that I don't like playing with items on. I really don't like any of them... but some people do.

The fact stands that people are saying the exact same crap about the stage choices/the Bowser clause in the SBR rules, and if 'we didn't want to interfere too much right now' is good enough for them, it's good enough for us. This is a living format, as I've said before; things change as they need to change. Read the list, Yuna. There are reasons for everything. Deku Nuts can effect the game on spawn drastically, so they are banned. AT's are allowed because there are no broken ones; as Keits demonstrated in those vids I posted with the list, each and every one can be dodged, and most pretty easily. Pokemon work basically the same way. Either way, the risk to using either of them in 2v2 (as that is the only format they are allowed in as of now) is pretty great as KO'ing your partner sucks pretty badly, and (especially with the 'broken ones') that is always a risk to be considered. We're just giving the players the freedom to decide for themselves if that is a risk they are willing to take, just like the Dragoon being able to be used on you if you CP it.

Stop being so b*tchy about your precious purity in matches; the people who accept item play don't see it as a problem, and either way, you're not playing anyway, so who cares. If the people who play ISP want something changed, we'll change it, but for you to expect them to change anything because you (a non-item player) say so and want it to be so is ridiculous. Stop trying to force your opinion on people.

 

[Yuna]

Sorry, Yuna, but if you had paid any attention at all to me in the past, you'd have read the posts I've made saying that I don't like playing with items on. I really don't like any of them... but some people do.

I'm sorry if I missed that little tidbit (which you haven't thrown around that much since I can barely recall you ever mentioning it) when you're running all over the place defending items every time they come up and, I don't know, starting this thread. You're just a noble Devil's Advocate I guess.

The fact stands that people are saying the exact same crap about the stage choices/the Bowser clause in the SBR rules, and if 'we didn't want to interfere too much right now' is good enough for them, it's good enough for us. This is a living format, as I've said before; things change as they need to change.

Evidently not as the same crap that was there months ago is still there despite you having no good defense for them.

There are reasons for everything. Deku Nuts can effect the game on spawn drastically, so they are banned.

As opposed to Dragoons which will magically whiff each time?

AT's are allowed because there are no broken ones; as Keits demonstrated in those vids I posted with the list, each and every one can be dodged, and most pretty easily. Pokemon work basically the same way.

I'm sorry, we're assuming all item players are idiots who will just stand back and let the AT's/Pokémons do their thing now? It's pretty hard to dodge items and ATs if you're also being chased by the opponent. It becomes 2vs1.

Either way, the risk to using either of them in 2v2 (as that is the only format they are allowed in as of now) is pretty great as KO'ing your partner sucks pretty badly, and (especially with the 'broken ones') that is always a risk to be considered. We're just giving the players the freedom to decide for themselves if that is a risk they are willing to take,

It always sucks to KO your teammate. It doesn't make SBs less bad. They still spawn quite frequently, are gamebreaking and stupidly good.

And a good player won't frequently KO his teammate. And the upset in 2vs2 is that you might take out both opponents at the same time. So with the risk of killing your teammate, you also get the benefit of possibly killing both opponents. Even if you kill all 3, you're up by 1.

And with this (inane) logic, all items should be on counterpick in teams. After all, there's always the risk of KO:ing your teammate!

I can't help but notice that I told you all this last post and you conveniently didn't address it.

just like the Dragoon being able to be used on you if you CP it.

What the hell is the risk of turning the Dragoon on? "The opponent might get it"?!

Stop being so b*tchy about your precious purity in matches; the people who accept item play don't see it as a problem, and either way, you're not playing anyway, so who cares. If the people who play ISP want something changed, we'll change it, but for you to expect them to change anything because you (a non-item player) say so and want it to be so is ridiculous. Stop trying to force your opinion on people.

As opposed to you, I can be objective. I'm not *****ing because of a need for purity. As I've already said one zillion times, I could care less if some people play with items on. In fact, I've clocked more time with items on than most people on Smashboards.

Yes, I play with items on... a lot. Just because I prefer them off doesn't mean I don't play with them on when people want to. I've clocked more time than the majority of the itemnites who you claim shouldn't listen to me. I know more about items than you, probably.

What I want is a balanced ruleset so that the poor schlubs who insist on playing with items on can get a fair and balanced items list to have quasi-real Competitive tournaments over. This project is stagnated. Why? Because you're incompetent and biased. I come in with facts and logic and you just go "Poo poo!". You attempt to attack my credentials when I've said, on my occasions, often in threads you read that I've clocked countless of hours with items on.

I base my opinion on cold hard facts and logic. Tell me, what do you base the list on? How come you could determine that Smash Balls need to be banned, yet we need "more testing" for Dragoons?

Oh right, certain things don't need 6+ months of testing. We can look at them and go "Broken" and ban them right away. Thus, if we look at the Dragoon we'll know they need to be broken. But, no. Your bias stands in the way for that. The Dragoon magically needs more testing when the Golden Hammer does not, for some reason, despite the Dragoon being stronger and having no risk (no, "The opponent might get i!" is not a special Dragoon-risk, that's an inherent risk with all items) while the Golden Hammer can malfunction.

Stop it with the selective reading. Respond to each and every single thing I say in this post. You ignoring valid arguments does not make them any less valid.

 

[MarKO X]

Pokeballs are more broken than the ATs IMO for two reasons:

1) pokeballs hurt.
2) the rare pokemon are much more intense than the rare assists. Latios and Latias, Lugia, Ho oh, Entei, them other legendary *******s ('cause I'm pretty sure I didn't name them all), and Manaphy (the one that can change your mutha ****ing character in the middle of a mutha ****ing match) are pretty mutha****ing bad.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yuna, you can say you have all this item experience, but at the end of the day, we're still just taking your word for it. You haven't posted any item match vids that I know of, or at least you haven't brought any up. I don't see you placing in item tournaments or telling anyone else about them. The onus is on you, buddy. I'm not about to take your word for it just because you're Yuna and you are, I don't know, awesome at... something? If we have to prove them balanced through tournaments (and we do), then you also have to prove them broken the same way. As you all say with the IC's, if it so easy to tear up item tournaments by only CP'ing the Dragoon, then do it and show us. Until then, ease up.

Oh, and you're totally right: part of the risk of CPing ANY item is that it could be used on you, too. After all, you just lost a match to an item player (if you're CP'ing); do you want to take the risk of giving him the Dragoon/Smash Ball/whatever to use, or are you confident enough that you can get to it first?

The fact of the matter is that a lot of the early picks (just like a lot of the early stage bans, btw) were compromises between people. I'm sure you remember the other thread; tons of people on both sides were arguing about whether to keep the Dragoon in or not. So, we made it CP to satisfy both sides. Same with the Smash Ball in 2v2. No one b*tched about the Golden Hammer, so it's banned. If people really, really wanted it on, then I'd give it much more testing to make sure it was ready for play, but as it stands, no one really cares.

Again, living format. Changes can be made, dude. Run out to a few item tournaments in wherever-the-hells-ville and prove the Dragoon broken, and then we'll talk.

 

[Yuna]

I've been in a single Items On tournament in my entire life; at Otakon 2006. 256 participants, IIRC. I placed 2nd.

What have the tournament done to prove Smash Balls need to be banned that hasn't proven the same for Dragoons, answer me that. What... has... it... done?

So whether or not something is banned when it's clear it's broken depends on how many people whine to keep it in? Nice.

Yes, changes can be made... how come they aren't? That list is largely the same as a few months ago. How many tournaments have you run? And how can you not have gotten enough data from them to realize the Dragoon is broken, monsieur?

And what risks are there involved with the Dragoon?! No, "The opponent might get it!" is not valid. If we're gonna use that, then all items (except maybe explosives and containers) should be on because it's true for all items.

I've put forth plenty of evidence for why the Dragoon should be banned. You should be able to verify my statements with your "data". What do you have to refute my statements about the Dragoon other than "The opponent might get it" (BS argument) and "We need more time" (the ISP has been around for, what, 5 months now? 6?).

Also, that's BS and you know it. So Smash Balls in Teams and the Dragoon were made CPs because both sides argued a lot? Then what about SBs for Singles? Tons of people wanted them kept in for Singles too.

No, you injected your subjective opinion there. You think they can't be on in Singles, but maybe in Teams and that the Dragoon isn't broken, that's why the list looks like it looks. Your bad excuses are just that, bad excuses, easily seen through.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Actually, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Smash Balls are off in 1v1 but on in 2v2 also as a compromise. You see, if people in a chaotic 2v2 environment could learn to overcome Smash Balls, then they should be able to in 1v1 as well. Having them on in 2v2 is a partial litmus test for 1v1 play. See, there is logic there that you didn't know about.

Why isn't 'the opponent might get it' valid? The whole purpose of counterpicking anything is to give the loser an advantage. But, if the opponent is skilled enough to steal items from you, turning on the Dragoon is not a good idea. In fact, the loser should probably use both his counterpicks to turn off two items instead of turning more items on.

I wasn't able to verify Dragoon data in my first tournament because the Dragoon was banned at that time. Then, people on SWF complained about it, and I respected their wishes for more testing enough to make it CP for the time being. You forget, Yuna, I'm not the end-all-be-all of this thing. I NEVER SAID I would do all of this on my own, and I never intended to. It's not my job to provide all the data, just to condense it and give it a home. Not that I'm adverse to collecting data (I ended up collecting a lot of it), but life many times gets in the way.

All of your evidence is exactly like some of the evidence the project currently uses: theory. Theory is great when making a starting point, but past that, it only gets in the way. We have a starting point now, so now is the time for hard evidence. Again, you want Dragoon off so badly, then go enter some item tournaments and CP them for the win. Oh, and by the way, one item tournament FROM MELEE DAYS does NOT equal multiple tournaments from Brawl. It's the same reason we argued previously about how Ken's previous experience amounted to little more than bupkis at EVO. New game, new rules, new evidence. We don't accept Melee data around here.

 

[Yuna]

Jack, unless you stop selectively ignoring parts of my post, I will stop treating you with the little respect I'm giving you.

"The opponent might get it!" is not a valid defense for having an item on because that's true for all items. With that logic, all items should be on or at least as Counterpicks. I've said this several times already. This is why it's a BS argument.

In theory fighter (and tourney rules are based in part on that), we assume both (or all 4) players are of roughly equal skill, be it with or without items. So "One player might be more skilled at getting items" is not a valid argument.

In a matchup where both players are of roughly equal skill, the Dragoon is a valid counterpick because... um... the opponent might get it? Then let's allow Deku Nuts, Golden Hammers, Lightning, Timers and every else as counterpicks, too.

And changing the status of an item based on if and how many whine about it is an idiotic policy. You have to listen to their arguments, are they valid?