Official For Glory / Online Features Discussion (／・ω・)／

[Miles Pierre]

Well, considering their subjective opinion can't be wrong, then yes, solid opinion. At least they can describe why they prefer and why they don't find one mode or the other fun. I don't see it the way they do, I like competitive play, but if they just don't see it the way I do then so be it.

They do bring up an interesting point that the debate over what is or isn't competitive or fun is pointless.

I disagree heavily with Pat the NES Punk here, even though I love his videos for the most part. I don't see any problem with two separate matchmakers, and I could just as easily flip the tables and say that For Glory is insulting to competitive players because there's no "fun" involved. At least he's aware of why he doesn't like the idea of competitive play.

This is a post addressing yours (which I mostly agree with) and the video posted.

What I mostly encounter on forums is a vocal set of casual smash players complaining about the way competitive players play, as seen in that youtube video. Anecdotally, I rarely if ever see competitive players complaining about the way casuals play. Competitive players can and do play casually often. I know I do all the time.

To me, the group of people that are totally intolerant of other play styles seem to be the casual crowd. Mind you not all casual players feel this way, but generally you'll have a very vocal set of casual players complain that competitive players ruin the game. They are the only group who seem to think they know exactly how the game should be played and generally those vocal casuals will act as if they are playing the game in a purer fashion (as they say "the way it's meant to be played") than competitive players. Competitive players aren't perfect though. I know there are/were a lot of knob heads who had an elitist attitude about their techniques and skill. But ...by and large what I see from the Smash community is not competitive players complaining about the casual side, no, in fact the other way around.They act as if the competitive player is an affront to the almighty God Sakurai and his wish for casual bliss. They act as if everyone should play exactly like them or you should find another game to play. Well that's a selfish way to think and that guy in the video reeks of it. Who is he to impose his idea of fun onto me? Who is he to tell me how I should play a game? Who is he to tell me my style of play is invalid? If Sakurai didn't want people to play competitively he shouldn't have made a fighting game. He also shouldn't have given people the ability to customize their mode of play with such totality. He also shouldn't have even made a For Glory mode. Sakurai gave players an option. As people say, don't hate the (competitive) player, hate the game.

What is curious is this vocal group on the casual side of the isle usually cannot see any other view but their own. Most if not all competitive Smash players started out as casuals enjoying the game as a random frantic brawl. We simply just sought another play style that fit better with our personalities. Competitive play is not objectively better or worse than casual play... just different. Personally I have more fun playing competitively but I won't force my way of play on another player.

People who are competitive can understand casual play -- and play casually. Casual players generally don't understand the draw in playing Smash competitively and often assume competitive players aren't having any fun. That's not true. As crazy as it sounds people did have fun playing no items, Fox, FD only. You don't play a video game that you get absolutely no enjoyment out of. Especially not like that.

I have fun when I play Smash competitively. I have fun when I watch competitive matches. I'd argue that I have more fun than those that shun the competitive community because I can choose whichever play style I want. I can be competitive if I want to or I can play casually. Competitive matches are great but label me a farmer's daughter if I've never squealed with giddy apprehension during a frenetic heavy item/smashball free-for-all.

Going back to the online modes, the seperation between these modes is nothing new. For Fun is essentially "unranked" matches and For Glory is essentially "ranked". Almost every online multiplayer game where you compete against other random players has these two distinct online modes. Street Fighter, Madden, Gears of War, Call of Duty, Halo. You name it. I would challenge that youtube guy to find me an online vs game without a ranked and unranked lobby. They are few and far between.

If Smash Bros is to have a successful online mode it needs to have options. The more options within reason the more successful the online mode will be. A ranked and unranked arena is just like any other online vs game. These are staples for any game where you battle another human player. I'm not even going to get into the issues with For Glory as it stands because I first wanted to address this toxic opinion that many casual players have of competitive players. Later I'll try my best to reason with those who say competitive players shouldn't try to address potential problems with that mode.

 

[Chaosmaster8753]

I dunno if anyone here's already discussed this, but does anyone else want some kind of lobbies against random players? And with all the amount of items, does anyone think something like Mario Kart 7's communities could be adapted for this series?

 

[ChikoLad]

Yeah, I'd like to see those things too, and I'm sure it's possible.

 

[DaDavid]

Communities would be great. Even if Wii U specifically ends up getting more online modes/features after the 3DS launch, I think it'd be a missed opportunity to not use that extra time to think about online on the console with stronger online capabilities.

 

[Khao]

All I want to see is stock matches in random fights, in either mode.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that they'd be the difference between playing online all day long, and just not bothering with it and going against CPUs. (or against friends, I guess.)

 

[DraginHikari]

I would doubt we'll see stock matches in the random match modes just simply because they probably want to limit the match time for their process.

 

[serazac25]

I just hope that in the long run, the For Glory Mode, end up choosing other stages, viable stages like FD. BF, a Freezed PokeStadium, and hope to see the return of Dream Land 4.

The rank system is neato. Screams like a Sakurai's Idea, you would never know if your number one or whatever.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Though the GSP has nothing seemingly to do with multiplayer. It's all solo play stuff.

 

[Chiroz]

Though the GSP has nothing seemingly to do with multiplayer. It's all solo play stuff.

It is just solo play stuff.

There is a hidden ranking though, one that is used for matchmaking, you just won't be able to know where you currently are.

 

[TheLegendOfVenusaur]

Samurai said that the global smashpower will affect match ups.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

He said there would be some sort of matchmaking, but didn't elaborate. GSP is just for solo rankings.

 

[TheLegendOfVenusaur]

Don't want to get all shooter aka COD like in here...
But I think it would be cool to have intense stat tracking like: most used characters, win percentage, kd ratio idk..
Just throwing it up in the air

Brawl tracks those sorts of things (I think melee does as well.)
My guess is if you add someone like samurai said then it should let you see those stats and compare them to yours

 

[TheLegendOfVenusaur]

Am I the only one who wants to see the design for the training room? (If there is one)

 

[Renji64]

Am I the only one who wants to see the design for the training room? (If there is one)

I was thinking about it yesterday i hope it isn't plain as brawl's wifi one.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Smash 4 is coming out this year and and a lot of unlearned neophytes are coming out of the woods. I think it's time Smashboards started preparing a litmus test for the ability to post. We need to recondition people to stop passing off their assumptions as fact and to listen more carefully to new information, like the guy on Miiverse that believes Isabelle is a 3DS exclusive. The test should concern very basic things, such as Global Smash Power, Final Destination's place in competitive play, and Lucario not replacing Mewtwo. If you fail the test, you have a choice between being temporarily banned or receiving a 350 volt electric shock. If you fail the test and choose to be banned, an extra two electric shocks are delivered for trying to avoid corporal punishment.

 

[TheLegendOfVenusaur]

I was thinking about it yesterday i hope it isn't plain as brawl's wifi one.

Ikr? Give it a bit of colour or just use FD or battlefield instead

 

[Chaosmaster8753]

How promising does the netcode look to anyone else? With how many other 3DS games (including Sakurai's own Kid Icarus: Uprising) play online, it would be a shame if something goes wrong w/Smash's connections.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

How promising does the netcode look to anyone else? With how many other 3DS games (including Sakurai's own Kid Icarus: Uprising) play online, it would be a shame if something goes wrong w/Smash's connections.

I don't know to be honest. I think the biggest reason behind Brawl's connectivity being such a dud was because the service was tested only regionally in Japan, and Japan has amazing infrastructure for this kind of thing. I don't think they were looking to build an online presence (since it targeted such a young demographic) so they made peer-to-peer the model for the game's connectivity, compounding the issue.

I think by now they recognize the need to upgrade their services, even accounting for oversea infrastructures.

 

[Chimera]

How promising does the netcode look to anyone else? With how many other 3DS games (including Sakurai's own Kid Icarus: Uprising) play online, it would be a shame if something goes wrong w/Smash's connections.

I'm hoping to see Namco's expertise here. Their fighting games have had great netcodes.

 

[link2702]

after playing kid icarus uprising online....


i actually fear for smash4's online being just as bad if not worse than brawls....seriously....out of all the games I play online it really seems like its only KI:U and brawl.....two games sakurai made, that tend to give me horrible lag....but in KI:U, it actually manages to be WORSE for me than what brawls is....

 

[Hitzel]

after playing kid icarus uprising online....


i actually fear for smash4's online being just as bad if not worse than brawls....seriously....out of all the games I play online it really seems like its only KI:U and brawl.....two games sakurai made, that tend to give me horrible lag....but in KI:U, it actually manages to be WORSE for me than what brawls is....

Really? Kid Icarus tended to play smoothly for me. Maybe it's because there's less people playing nowadays so there's less good connections to work with.

 

[link2702]

Really? Kid Icarus tended to play smoothly for me. Maybe it's because there's less people playing nowadays so there's less good connections to work with.

it probably doesn't help either that I'm getting mostly paired up with japanese players, those are definitely when i experience the worst issues

even then though, a lot of american players I face still lag pretty bad. They'll be warping(and I don't mean the kind from the powerup, the lag kind) all over the place and walking out of the normal boundaries of the stage, walking straight into a wall for a good 3-4 seconds and no attacks of mine are connecting, next thing I know suddenly I get hit out of nowhere by em and killed, as well as plenty of other oddball things that happen from lag.

Its only kid icarus for the 3DS that gives me this kind of trouble. PKMN, Street fighter, and animal crossing I never had issues with, and none of my PC games, nor wii(aside from the well known issues of brawl, but even it pales in comparison to the issues with KI:U) ever have lag issues.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

@ ChikoLad

It's really frustrating posting to you. Somehow, you have a gift to always miss the main point of a statement. No matter how sound, no matter how solid, you either miss the point or argue against what you think I'm saying. At this time, everything ( or at least a lot) of what I've said in the very beginning is still relevant to the conversation. So I'm probably going to stop soon because at this rate it will progress to where you'll say something. Then I'll respond. Then you'll say something which I could probably respond to by repeating my previous answer.

Your Quotes:

"This is something Sakurai has no obligation to address before the game comes out."
"Rallying for changes willy-nilly gets nothing done."

First of all, it's not "rallying." I don't think the issue is big enough to boycott Smash like you suggest. And it's not "willy-nilly." I've voiced many arguments why it was a good idea. None of your "rebuttals" have explained why my idea is bad - just why I shouldn't voice it. And why shouldn't I? It's not like we're getting Smash 4 for free so that "don't complain" attitude would be justified. We are consumers - we have to pay for the product, so if the product has a possible defect what's wrong with mentioning it?

"See the member count of this very website? There's your number. The majority of players contained within the tourney scene would be WITHIN that number."
"You are part of a very small minority..."

This is complete bull. Seriously, I'm tired of this. I've explained how this problem is in the interest of tourney players, but also for the balance of the game mode (aka for everyone who plays For Glory). The fact of the matter is, this is a 3rd party organization, on the internet, where you have to sign up to be a member. This is the definition of anecdotal. Please do no act like this website is the end all be all of competitive Smash. In fact, even if this was a Nintendo official site and they pimped it everyday, I doubt those numbers would be a good indicator of the For Glory populous. You have no idea how many people are going to frequent For Glory. You said yourself millions play Smash - so assuming that 100K out of those figures are gonna play this mode is ignorant.

"And to be honest, if someone is so bothered by a bit of a balance discrepancy in a mode AGAINST RANDOMS, they probably aren't very good at the game in the first place."
"Don't complain about a slight disadvantage, beat the disadvantage. It makes you a much better player..."

This one really shows how little knowledge you have of the Smash meta-game. Have you ever looked at a match-up chart? Since it seems obvious you haven't, there are some match-ups that specifically state "large advantage" and "(close to) unloseable." I want you to keep in mind, these are people who breathe this game. This, right here, shows us that Smash is not the type of game to produce only slight disadvantages as you've tried to suggest. In fact, I can't really think of any fighting game that only has slight advantages. So how hard is it to think that these stages can actually have a important impact on a match result.

And I hate that you have no concept that randomness doesn't always equal imbalance, even when match-ups aren't 50/50. Just because one or two aspects of the system is random - doesn't mean the whole machine is unbalanced. Honestly, I think this doesn't show just a lack of understanding for games, but life in general. As a game developer, for competitive games like this you should almost always strive for balance. And I hope you don't want me to go through the elementary steps of explaining why balance is good ( I'll do it though - seriously). The idea is to have one match that favors you ( a plus ), and one that doesn't ( a minus ), and of course one that isn't either ( neutral ). Ideally, assuming you have a random chance of these happening - the net affect of the match-ups are neutral. I don't get how this is so dang hard to understand. Is it perfect? Heck no. But it's a lot better to try to mitigate the negative effects of randomness than to say "Oh - it's random anyway so, even though I have an easy option to make the randomness less of a factor for evaluating skill, to hell with balance."

" Sakurai can't plan patches when he hasn't got our hands on feedback."
" People complaining about For Glory (like yourself) are doing it pre-maturely. Wait until your fears are definite before you start rallying for change."

This is the feedback right here! Gave you many reasons why it seems to be a problem right now. And it's stupid to wait until something is a problem before you fix it. It's human logic to try to make changes at the first hints that something could be wrong. Changes are generally more difficult to do after a game is released. Look at any number of games to see that.

"Absolutely no consumers liked the DRM thing Microsoft were going to implement. Sure, the shareholders would have loved it, but consumers? You'd be very hard pressed to find anyone who actually felt they benefited."

I'm also hard pressed to find people who wouldn't benefit from more than just Final Destination.

"I'm a Falco player, and Final Destination is a stage where I feel I have the upper hand, while Battlefield is the opposite scenario. By jumping between the two, I can compare the effectiveness of various techniques."

Sounds like a point for my argument ( plus-minus thing anyone )...

- As Miles Pierre said, we aren't idiots. It's still Smash. When can use Smash history, history of games in general, and logic to determine problems before they are problems. That is part of why our human brains are awesome.

Side Note: You say For Glory isn't finalized and that it could change. I'm sorry but not finalized is different from specifically saying it will only have Final Destination - which he did. Why would we wait for a possible change on a feature he specifically said the game will have - especially in conjunction with how you say "now is not the time to rally..." So you essentially said we shouldn't complain 'cause he might fix it in the future, but if we don't complain how is he even going to know it's a problem to be fixed?

 

[Miles Pierre]

Unfortunately @ ChikoLad 's blind abject fanaticism for Nintendo and Sakurai is blocking him from seeing any other view. I am a fan of this game just as you are. I just won't lie to myself. I want this game to be the best it possibly can. That means that if I have the opportunity, and I do, to say something I will.

1. You say it's too early to voice concerns over the mode as it could change. As Pizza noted the default state right now is Final Destination only. That's what he says in the Direct. Yes it could change, but that's exactly WHY we should say something. Because it IS STILL SUBJECT to change. If it were not subject to change it would be a wasted effort trying to get him to change it since the game would be finalized. This is the reason we should say something. When the game comes out they aren't going to have commercials with a disclaimer that says "subject to change". The game will be finalized at that point. When it's still malleable is when you should try to get input, not when things are concrete. Would it make sense to take a character poll after or before the game's finished? Your arguments could easily be said for that as well. "Guys, who knows what characters are going to be in the game. It says subject to change! Why don't you wait until SSB5 comes out to tell Sakurai which characters you want in the game. After all he said he is open to DLC!" You definitely should have told Sakurai that. He's been doing it wrong for the last decade. Let's just hope he does it correctly next time with a character poll after the release of SSB5.

2. Sakurai said himself that he's making this mode for the competitive crowd and it's quite obvious he is. You are not the person he's making For Glory mode for. He's making it for me, he's making it for Pizza and he's making it for any other smashers who like to compete on fair terms and/or has experience in playing Smash competitively. He's not making the mode for you. You don't care if platforms get added or not. You probably don't even care about the mode anyway. So if Sakurai is making a mode specifically for this crowd then why wouldn't we tell him that more stages included in that mode is what we want? You say you doubt Sakura would listen but that clearly shows you know little about Sakurai. I'm going to say this but I really want you to take it to heart. Sakurai is not perfect. Sakurai is a human with flaws. Sakurai lies, he poops, he has bad thoughts, and he probably is mean from time to time. That's what being human is. So stop acting like it's silly, pointless or disrespectful to question his design decisions. He does that himself all the time. He added tripping, and took it out for SSB4. Clearly he didn't think that was a good design decision for a fighting game otherwise he would have left it in. He thought Villager would never work and he changed his mind. Sakurai also takes character polls. So he DOES care what the community thinks. Sakurai TROLLS his fanbase -- so he actually does KNOW and LISTEN to what we talk about. Even though

For Glory mode as presented has it's flaws he clearly is in touch with his community and wants to hear from us. Otherwise he wouldn't have made that mode. Is it coincidence that a lot of the changes to Brawl in Project M are present in SSB4? There's only one of two options here: Either he saw the changes and adopted them (which means the competitive scene and it's ideas are relevant to Sakurai -- which we already know based on For Glory mode's inclusion) OR it's a coincidence and the competitive scene just happens to be in tune with Sakurai's vision for SSB -- in other words, they know what works. Either way they are in tune to some degree. So if the competitive scene (which they clearly have) agrees that Final Destination isn't the only stage to play on and that there are many stages that make a more fair and balanced set than FD only I'd argue that they're right and Sakurai, someone who is making a mode specifically for them, should listen.

3. It's clear you have an unnatural bias towards Sakurai because you say yourself you wouldn't mind him adding platforms. The argument has delved off into all sorts of moot categories. The fact is we both agree that most, if not everyone would welcome platformed stages in For Glory mode. There is no negative to it and it's not a superfluous addition either. It's something that matters and something that only benefits the players who would frequent that mode. So really the only issue is you thinking that we shouldn't complain just yet. Well I've already addressed that earlier but I'll say this again. For Glory mode isn't for you. That's why you're complaining about our complaining. I brought up MS and DRM because it was an example of gamers changing what was supposedly set in stone. MS said they wouldn't change it multiple times. After a huge outcry (after E3) they finally decided to change their DRM plans. Sony never detailed their plans for PS4 and DRM so many fans were afraid it might mirror Microsoft's plans. These fans ran a twitter campaign and Sony responded. That's why Sony won last year's E3. They listened to the fans and it was quite apparent. They even had the no DRM hashtag show up during their conference on one of the powerpoint slides. It is easier and better for the consumer and the company to change a product before launching it. This is a fact. Just because DLC exists doesn't mean it will be utilized. Just because DLC exists doesn't mean it will be an easy fix. It's better to ship it on the disk than to patch it later. Sakurai and Nintendo have echoed this numerous times. If you doubt this, I can find quotes from Sakurai and other Nintendo developers stating this.

4. I'd like to hear your main reason why voicing concern right now is a bad thing. I already gave you Pascal's wager as an example and you didn't respond to it. Either you weren't familiar with the logic table or you simply didn't have a rebuttal but I'll outline it for you:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|..................... |.Sakurai Listen's to fans.|.Sakurai doesn't listen.|.For Glory already has platforms.|.For Glory will never have Platforms.|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|.Suggestions.|.....+∞ (infinite gain)........|........−1 (finite loss).......|............+1 (finite gain)..................|..............−1 (finite loss).......................|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|......Silence....|.....−∞ (infinite loss)........|.......+-0 (neutral)...........|............+1 (finite gain)..................|..............−1 (finite loss)......................|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using this model here we can see that suggesting platforms is the best route to go. The worst possible outcome is that Sakurai listens to fan's but we say nothing so there are no platforms in For Glory mode. This is why we should say something.

Edit: Why are we even arguing with sonicbrawler. He's just wasting our time. We know its an issue and we'll continue to try and get it resolved.

 

[LancerStaff]

it probably doesn't help either that I'm getting mostly paired up with japanese players, those are definitely when i experience the worst issues

even then though, a lot of american players I face still lag pretty bad. They'll be warping(and I don't mean the kind from the powerup, the lag kind) all over the place and walking out of the normal boundaries of the stage, walking straight into a wall for a good 3-4 seconds and no attacks of mine are connecting, next thing I know suddenly I get hit out of nowhere by em and killed, as well as plenty of other oddball things that happen from lag.

Its only kid icarus for the 3DS that gives me this kind of trouble. PKMN, Street fighter, and animal crossing I never had issues with, and none of my PC games, nor wii(aside from the well known issues of brawl, but even it pales in comparison to the issues with KI:U) ever have lag issues.

KIU's online does get glitchy, but that has something to do with how many outcomes there are between homing and it's "guessing" lag. Like firing right at the edge of a shot's homing range for one guy to sling the shot into another guy, just imagine how many things could go wrong. Since SSB's online modes don't "guess" like KIU's does, the outcome of the match is more stable, with the drawback being that SSB slows down.

Anyway, the actual networking is a heck of alot better in KIU. I honestly can't remember the last time I got disconnected on Nintendo's part. Brawl being slow was because of alot of inefficiencies, like generating the random numbers on one system then sending it out instead of working on a seed. Combining KIU's efficiency with SSB's more correct information sending style should work well enough for 1v1s atleast.

 

[Miles Pierre]

Absolutely no consumers liked the DRM thing Microsoft were going to implement. Sure, the shareholders would have loved it, but consumers? You'd be very hard pressed to find anyone who actually felt they benefited. And you brought this comparison up, don't go weaseling out by saying my points are off-topic, you started this line of discussion by making the comparison you did, and I am showing you how it's invalid as a comparison.

Generally, when someone makes an absolute they have no idea what they're talking about and are usually wrong. Also, just to show how little you actually followed the events here are some links:

http://gizmodo.com/the-xbox-one-just-got-way-worse-and-its-our-fault-514411905
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/691088-xbox-one/68278451
http://n4g.com/news/1286843/xbox-one-microsoft-drops-10-person-family-sharing-plan
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/people-still-defensive-about-the-xbox-one-and-microsoft.453631645/
http://forums.harmonixmusic.com/discussion/234497/xbox-one
http://www.wpcentral.com/microsoft-completely-repeals-controversial-xbox-one-drm-policies
http://www.neowin.net/news/is-microsoft-about-to-reverse-course-on-xbox-one-drm-policies

And if you check just about any DRM thread last year on any site there were MANY people arguing about their policies. It wasn't just a bunch of angry nerds circle jerking in every thread hating on MS. There were plenty of gamers who loved their idea of the future/DRM and claimed whiners and complainers ruined the xbone.

 

[ChikoLad]

I was attempting to respond to what has been said here (Pizza's post initially), and it was going to be more mild, but I've been getting time-outs all day on this site, and in that time, you've made more than one huge mess up. I have a draft and a fair bit in it, but I'm getting rid of it, because honestly, you're the sort of person who's beyond reasoning, and you evidently only care about trying to be hot ****.

You're overall attitude and judgement has only worsened, and clearly the days you spent trying to think of responses to what I have said were all for naught, as you have failed to make a single good point, have shown truckloads of hypocrisy, and even imply that what you think is best for the game is what everyone wants. You have shown a clear lack of understanding for basic game design processes, as well as a lack of acknowledgment, touting yourself as a majority, when you are ONE PERSON.

Not only that, but you also come out and make baseless and false assumptions about me, make off topic points (what would my stance on Nintendo as a company have to do with my thoughts on For Glory), ignore facts I have stated (even regarding my own status as a competitive Smash player), which is a clear sign of your high and mighty ego. I also find it insulting, as a game designer, and even just as a person, that you would state that pathetic model as fact. It doesn't work like that. It's not going to be so black and white, and you will see as much when the game comes out.

Also, every second you spent arguing about this here was a waste of time, because Sakurai doesn't read these boards, as far as anyone knows. You'd be better off taking to his twitter or something, or to Miiverse. You talk big about how you're going to "resolve this", but you haven't done jack towards your cause. You've focused more on directly insulting me and rubbing your own ****. How is this for "doing it for the benefit of the competitive community as a whole, not just for myself"?

Edit: Why are we even arguing with sonicbrawler. He's just wasting our time. We know its an issue and we'll continue to try and get it resolved.

And this right here solidifies you as a delusional, egotistical donkey, who would insult someone for absolutely no justifiable reason. You speak as if talking to a crowd, when it was only you and Pizza arguing against me. Furthermore, you put this in as an EDIT. Which means, you made your post (which was insulting enough already, to myself and the intelligence of others), looked at, and thought "GEE, I THINK I JUST NEED TO MAKE ONE MORE DIRECT INSULT AGAINST THIS USER". That is not debating, it is nothing more than direct, unprovoked flaming, and again, you did this as an EDIT, which means you can't fall back on a hot temper excuse or "I wasn't thinking straight", because you had to think about it, go back to your post, and add that insulting line. The fact that you try to paint me as some sort of villain here is hilarious considering this.

And you're right, people know it's an issue, and I do too. Doesn't mean your "method" of "resolving" it works, especially since all you have done so far is insult others. At least my method involved hands-on experience of the competitive community with the game itself and then asking for a patch based on information gathered, with an exact list of stages to be added, and not just "IF I WHINE TO SAKURAI (which you haven't even been doing - you've been whining to me) BEFORE THE GAME COMES OUT, I CAN GET PLATFORM STAGES AND SAKURAI WILL KNOW WHAT ONES TO PICK BECAUSE HE'S MY SPIRIT ANIMAL". Yet I'm somehow the Sakurai fanboy (I don't trust him to pick stages the competitive community will agree with, which is why I think the competitive community should be allowed to make an educated suggestion rather than guess which stages are balanced for this game).

You literally are not worth taking things further with, because you are not concerned with the mode as far as this discussion shows me, you are just concerned with putting down others without justification (no, your "arguments" were not untouchable, in fact, they are easy to tear down, but doing so would be giving you too much credit), and making yourself feel like some heroic emissary for the competitive Smash community. Say what you will, but at the end of the day, you have done nothing for the cause you claim to be "resolving". You have nothing to show, only that you can be pathetic ***.

And I await my warning. :V

 

[Miles Pierre]

I was attempting to respond to what has been said here (Pizza's post initially), and it was going to be more mild, but I've been getting time-outs all day on this site, and in that time, you've made more than one huge mess up. I have a draft and a fair bit in it, but I'm getting rid of it, because honestly, you're the sort of person who's beyond reasoning, and you evidently only care about trying to be hot ****.

You're overall attitude and judgement has only worsened, and clearly the days you spent trying to think of responses to what I have said were all for naught, as you have failed to make a single good point, have shown truckloads of hypocrisy, and even imply that what you think is best for the game is what everyone wants. You have shown a clear lack of understanding for basic game design processes, as well as a lack of acknowledgment, touting yourself as a majority, when you are ONE PERSON.

Not only that, but you also come out and make baseless and false assumptions about me, make off topic points (what would my stance on Nintendo as a company have to do with my thoughts on For Glory), ignore facts I have stated (even regarding my own status as a competitive Smash player), which is a clear sign of your high and mighty ego. I also find it insulting, as a game designer, and even just as a person, that you would state that pathetic model as fact. It doesn't work like that. It's not going to be so black and white, and you will see as much when the game comes out.

Also, every second you spent arguing about this here was a waste of time, because Sakurai doesn't read these boards, as far as anyone knows. You'd be better off taking to his twitter or something, or to Miiverse. You talk big about how you're going to "resolve this", but you haven't done jack towards your cause. You've focused more on directly insulting me and rubbing your own ****. How is this for "doing it for the benefit of the competitive community as a whole, not just for myself"?



And this right here solidifies you as a delusional, egotistical donkey, who would insult someone for absolutely no justifiable reason. You speak as if talking to a crowd, when it was only you and Pizza arguing against me. Furthermore, you put this in as an EDIT. Which means, you made your post (which was insulting enough already, to myself and the intelligence of others), looked at, and thought "GEE, I THINK I JUST NEED TO MAKE ONE MORE DIRECT INSULT AGAINST THIS USER". That is not debating, it is nothing more than direct, unprovoked flaming, and again, you did this as an EDIT, which means you can't fall back on a hot temper excuse or "I wasn't thinking straight", because you had to think about it, go back to your post, and add that insulting line. The fact that you try to paint me as some sort of villain here is hilarious considering this.

And you're right, people know it's an issue, and I do too. Doesn't mean your "method" of "resolving" it works, especially since all you have done so far is insult others. At least my method involved hands-on experience of the competitive community with the game itself and then asking for a patch based on information gathered, with an exact list of stages to be added, and not just "IF I WHINE TO SAKURAI (which you haven't even been doing - you've been whining to me) BEFORE THE GAME COMES OUT, I CAN GET PLATFORM STAGES AND SAKURAI WILL KNOW WHAT ONES TO PICK BECAUSE HE'S MY SPIRIT ANIMAL". Yet I'm somehow the Sakurai fanboy (I don't trust him to pick stages the competitive community will agree with, which is why I think the competitive community should be allowed to make an educated suggestion rather than guess which stages are balanced for this game).

You literally are not worth taking things further with, because you are not concerned with the mode as far as this discussion shows me, you are just concerned with putting down others without justification (no, your "arguments" were not untouchable, in fact, they are easy to tear down, but doing so would be giving you too much credit), and making yourself feel like some heroic emissary for the competitive Smash community. Say what you will, but at the end of the day, you have done nothing for the cause you claim to be "resolving". You have nothing to show, only that you can be pathetic ***.

And I await my warning. :V

This was by far the most interesting post you've made. 10/10. Would read again.

 

[lami]

In that sense, the extra pressure from a disadvantage could help push players to try harder, and that in turn could benefit tourney players, especially since there is no money stakes involved like in an actual tournament.

It could help you deal with getting CP'd to Final Destination in a tournament setting. Alllllll the FD training you could possibly need right at your fingertips!

 

[Miles Pierre]

It could help you deal with getting CP'd to Final Destination in a tournament setting. Alllllll the FD training you could possibly need right at your fingertips!

As Pizza noted the problem with that is it doesn't examine the other side of the coin. Players that have a disadvantage on FD may be honing their skills to play better on FD, but players that have an advantage on FD will be stagnate. They aren't honing their skills because they will always play at an advantage. I'm not saying this is exactly the same scenario but imagine someone who always has a built in SmashBall special move at their disposal everytime they fight and their opponent does not. This SmashBall player is competitive and wants to hone their skills. Can this player really be the best? Imagine if that player then goes to another players house and discovers that he has been fighting at an advantage (thus ruining his training) for quite some time! He gets completely destroyed because he was so used to playing with his built in SmashBall special. Yes it trains the disadvantage to be intimately familiar with playing on FD but that's all it does. It doesn't train the competitive player on any other viable stage. It doesn't train the advantaged player properly because they are advantaged. This is akin to saying that you should give people who work out at the gym weights that actually weigh less than what they are labeled. That helps no one.

I play with Samus. I don't want to only play on FD in For Glory. I plan on playing with Little Mac. I don't want to play only on FD. Many of my mains fight at an advantage on FD. I want to fight players on an even ground (no pun intended). I want platforms so that my opponent can fight me without a disadvantage. If we let Sakurai know now, then he can start thinking about what the proper stages to add are (Battlefield at the least. If only Battlefield were added I would be satisfied) rather than waiting and figuring that out when the game is already out. Also, whether or not I'm in the majority or the minority with my observations doesn't matter. It has never mattered in any conversation. My arguments should be deconstructed on their merit not whether or not my opinion is popular. It doesn't nor shouldn't matter if a poster thinks that I'm the only one concerned.

 

[lami]

As Pizza noted the problem with that is it doesn't examine the other side of the coin. Players that have a disadvantage on FD may be honing their skills to play better on FD, but players that have an advantage on FD will be stagnate. They aren't honing their skills because they will always play at an advantage. I'm not saying this is exactly the same scenario but imagine someone who always has a built in SmashBall special move at their disposal everytime they fight and their opponent does not. This SmashBall player is competitive and wants to hone their skills. Can this player really be the best? Imagine if that player then goes to another players house and discovers that he has been fighting at an advantage (thus ruining his training) for quite some time! He gets completely destroyed because he was so used to playing with his built in SmashBall special. Yes it trains the disadvantage to be intimately familiar with playing on FD but that's all it does. It doesn't train the competitive player on any other viable stage. It doesn't train the advantaged player properly because they are advantaged. This is akin to saying that you should give people who work out at the gym weights that actually weigh less than what they are labeled. That helps no one.

I play with Samus. I don't want to only play on FD in For Glory. I plan on playing with Little Mac. I don't want to play only on FD. Many of my mains fight at an advantage on FD. I want to fight players on an even ground (no pun intended). I want platforms so that my opponent can fight me without a disadvantage. If we let Sakurai know now, then he can start thinking about what the proper stages to add are (Battlefield at the least. If only Battlefield were added I would be satisfied) rather than waiting and figuring that out when the game is already out. Also, whether or not I'm in the majority or the minority with my observations doesn't matter. It has never mattered in any conversation. My arguments should be deconstructed on their merit not whether or not my opinion is popular. It doesn't nor shouldn't matter if a poster thinks that I'm the only one concerned.

The problem with playing to get better online is that For Glory really won't be the best place to do it. You're definitely gonna plateau and get stagnate, absolutely agree there. I think if you want to get better and you've exhausted all you can out of For Glory, then you maybe start playing online with friends, with friends IRL, or go to tournaments.

And when it comes to getting destroyed because he's only been playing on FD, that's his problem and a vital part of becoming better as a player. You're supposed to play people better than you, get destroyed, lose those bad habits, and move on to bigger and better fish once you've improved.

And I wasn't trying to disrespect you or anybody, I was just making an observation based on something he said. I definitely agree there are issues with For Glory.

 

[ChikoLad]

As Pizza noted the problem with that is it doesn't examine the other side of the coin. Players that have a disadvantage on FD may be honing their skills to play better on FD, but players that have an advantage on FD will be stagnate. They aren't honing their skills because they will always play at an advantage. I'm not saying this is exactly the same scenario but imagine someone who always has a built in SmashBall special move at their disposal everytime they fight and their opponent does not. This SmashBall player is competitive and wants to hone their skills. Can this player really be the best? Imagine if that player then goes to another players house and discovers that he has been fighting at an advantage (thus ruining his training) for quite some time! He gets completely destroyed because he was so used to playing with his built in SmashBall special. Yes it trains the disadvantage to be intimately familiar with playing on FD but that's all it does. It doesn't train the competitive player on any other viable stage. It doesn't train the advantaged player properly because they are advantaged. This is akin to saying that you should give people who work out at the gym weights that actually weigh less than what they are labeled. That helps no one.

>Implying that players who are feeling they have too much of an upper hand can't have the common sense to move to online With Friends, while they partake in discussion regarding what stages should be added after having constructed valid opinions on them after hands-on experience with the roster and stages, rather than assuming certain stages are good before release, and demanding they be added, which will end up being redundant, as things will be completely re-evaluated once the game comes out, and we realise how much veterans have changed and how much the newcomers shake things up, how many new techniques are present, and how many stages there are in the game.

 

[Miles Pierre]

The problem with playing to get better online is that For Glory really won't be the best place to do it. You're definitely gonna plateau and get stagnate, absolutely agree there. I think if you want to get better and you've exhausted all you can out of For Glory, then you maybe start playing online with friends, with friends IRL, or go to tournaments.

And when it comes to getting destroyed because he's only been playing on FD, that's his problem and a vital part of becoming better as a player. You're supposed to play people better than you, get destroyed, lose those bad habits, and move on to bigger and better fish once you've improved.

And I wasn't trying to disrespect you or anybody, I was just making an observation based on something he said. I definitely agree there are issues with For Glory.

No disrespect perceived!

I think the innate problem with Smashers is that they think the best and only way to get better is to play with friends. I don't think that's the case. More accurately that shouldn't be the case. There are many amazing players online. I play Street Fighter 3rd strike regularly. I am ranked in the top 100. When you get at that stage there is no plateau until you're no. 1. The best player is actually a tournament player. I've faced him many times in the comfort of my own home. He's amazing at the game and every time I play him I get better. Many of the top ranked SF3 players are tourney players. So telling me I should just play with friends or go to tourneys if I want to get better really isnt a valid argument. There shouldn't be a limitation on For Glory that would require me to do that in the first place.

 

[Shaya]

People need to calm down.

sonicbrawler, you really need to work on being more succinct with your words, paragraph long sentences and whatnot are hard to read and take seriously. I think the critique of your naivety is relatively valid and you should try to not respond with such animosity towards these unless they are insulting/rude (in which case report them).

In general I'd expect people to at least attempt to respect other's subjective opinions and also be humble in their tone based on this as well as knowing the fact their own subjective opinion is just another in the mass of many. There are multiple demographics to consider when talking about Smash features, and we can't really hate on Sakurai for appeasing any one more than another.

 

[ChikoLad]

People need to calm down.

sonicbrawler, you really need to work on being more succinct with your words, paragraph long sentences and whatnot are hard to read and take seriously. I think the critique of your naivety is relatively valid and you should try to not respond with such animosity towards these unless they are insulting/rude (in which case report them).

In general I'd expect people to at least attempt to respect other's subjective opinions and also be humble in their tone based on this as well as knowing the fact their own subjective opinion is just another in the mass of many. There are multiple demographics to consider when talking about Smash features, and we can't really hate on Sakurai for appeasing any one more than another.

The long sentence above was completely intentional.

And succinctness was my intention initially (my initial posts were brief, as are many other posts of mine), but for some people, that's not convincing enough and is seen as vagueness, unfortunately. Leading to where we are now.

Also, many objective facts are being opposed as subjective opinions, and many things are being oversimplified and pushed as the black and white truth. I am not pushing an opinion, I am pushing facts.

It is a fact that we do not know how the character balancing will play out in this game or how the metagame will develop, and as a result, it is a fact we cannot make sound decisions for what stages with platforms are best suited to For Glory. For all we know, Battlefield could be completely non-viable for competitive play in this game (that is an extreme example that I doubt will come to pass, but it gets the point across). It is also a fact that, to this day, people can't fully agree on what stages are most balanced in past Smash games. Therefore, it is a fact that we are in no position to claim we know what stages are best For Glory before we have even touched the game. Demanding for particular stages before release is not a logical course of action at all as a result, and will be redundant even if Sakurai did listen. It is also a fact that With Friends Mode allows you to completely customise your own lobby anyway, so the damage inflicted on the game's online mode if Sakurai hypothetically doesn't listen to requests for stage additions post release is minimal.

It is also a fact that Sakurai, as far as we know, does not visit these boards and there is no reason to believe he will. That is why it is a fact that, even if you desire changes to For Glory be made before the game releases, posting about it here in a general Online Discussion is not the way to make that change happen. Making a specific topic for gathering supportors, posting on Sakurai's twitter (which we know he reads), posting on Miiverse posts (we also know he reads the comments of his Miiverse posts and the posts in the Smash Bros Community on Miiverse), are examples of much better ways to at least attempt to make the change. Taking notes on the current successes and failures of the "Nintendo Re-Direct" movement would also be a great idea for those who want to change For Glory before release rather than waiting to get hands-on experience with the game and then asking for changes.

It is also NOT a fact that Sakurai is likely to ignore us when we make patch requests, this is a pessimistic assumption that ignores established facts.

------------------

When we say "Play With Friends", we mean the actual online mode. You can hook up with awesome players on the internet pre-release to make sure you have people to play with and discuss tactics, balanced stage selection, match-ups, etc with.

Such activity can only lead to much more concrete and logical decisions for stage additions to For Glory mode than making assumptions pre-release and demanding it before release. Sakurai has specifically stated that he is open to patching the game for balancing purposes:

PN: In Famitsu magazine a few months ago you said regretted not being able to patch SSBB on Wii, especially the online mode. This is not case anymore on Wii U and 3DS where it is possible to modify a game after its release. What aspects of the new SSB game will be scrutinized in prevision of possible patches?

S: It's hard to tell right now but of course we always try to keep the best balance. Nevertheless I do not know yet if it will be easy to patch the games once they are released. For example, if you have a person playing a patched version of the game playing against a person without the patch problems may occur. We will have to do a lot of research about this.

That said I think patches are very important to keep the game balanced once it's out. As you already know players are very interested in knowing whether a character is considered strong or weak on the Internet.

And sometimes you have to see if those perceptions are correct or if people are just following the popular opinion. We really want each character to have their special abilities, with statistics balancing their strong points.

We want to put forward specific each characters' specific abilities but at the same time players have to ask themselves if they accept the Internet reputation of a character. It's something we have to take into account when we will create patches

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...s-dlc-music-selection-and-direction-new-game/

 

[Shaya]

I'm very confused by your response. I'm not sure how it "lead(s) to where we are now", a where in which you spew multiple incoherent ramblings that I'm telling you now is bordering on spam.

My perspective of this conversation may be misconstrued due to not reading every word of every post here, but it seems the people you are arguing with have "insulted" you after you told them their opinion is wrong, unjustified, "delusional". The last page of responses by the three of you have been tame and relatively mature by all but you, and they've been arguing with your perspective which you've taken as insults. As I said, people need to calm down and learn to respect the existence of differing opinions. And if I've got the wrong idea due to earlier posts than feel free to explain them to me (somewhere else), but right now I'm telling you to drop it.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm very confused by your response. I'm not sure how it "lead(s) to where we are now", a where in which you spew multiple incoherent ramblings that I'm telling you now is bordering on spam.

My perspective of this conversation may be misconstrued due to not reading every word of every post here, but it seems the people you are arguing with have "insulted" you after you told them their opinion is wrong, unjustified, idiotic. The last page of responses by the three of you have been tame and relatively mature by all but you, and they've been arguing with your perspective which you've taken as insults. As I said, people need to calm down and learn to respect the existence of differing opinions.

I am not spamming, this is perfectly on topic according to the topic title of: Official For Glory / Online Features Discussion (／・ω・)／

My ramblings are not incoherent and have been in referral to a select few points, which you would know if you did read every word (I am not saying that to be snarky, you have just admitted to not doing so).

I didn't tell anyone their opinions were wrong, I corrected them where they tried to argue objective facts with misinformed "subjective opinions" (e.g. "There is no way Sakurai will patch the game", "We, as competitive players, can provide a much better stage list than FD Variants Only before having hands on experience", etc). I have also provided the opposing side of this debate with better alternatives towards their cause than arguing with me about it, and have noted that they haven't done a thing towards their cause.

And while I may have used a bit of sass here and there (it's just how I am, and is inoffensive to boot), I did not go out of my way to say anyone was beneath me. Miles Pierre, however, went out of his way to include the following as an edit:

Edit: Why are we even arguing with sonicbrawler. He's just wasting our time. We know its an issue and we'll continue to try and get it resolved.

The rest of their insults towards me at least have the temper/over-excited scapegoat, which I acknowledged, and was willing to ignore his insults towards me before this edit was made. However, an edit is something you make when you feel there is something missing/incorrect with your post. Which means Miles thought insulting someone was a legitimate necessary addition to his post. This is when I got annoyed and felt like he was going into flaming territory. I let is condescending attitude and false "doing it for everyone" attitude slide until I saw him make this edit.

 

[Shaya]

I've asked you to either discuss this with me privately or drop it (as this elongated talk/you arguing with me is itself detracting from the topic). Your last few posts have been off topic or garble (http://smashboards.com/threads/official-for-glory-online-features-discussion-／・ω・-／.352055/page-7#post-16643501), if I'm telling you they are, they most definitely are. Someone posting an edit saying "we no longer wish to argue with you" is not a reason to turn recalcitrant for four or more posts, it's rather obnoxious.

So telling me I should just play with friends or go to tourneys if I want to get better really isnt a valid argument. There shouldn't be a limitation on For Glory that would require me to do that in the first place.

The problem is that there is no fully accepted and understood tournament ruleset out there, everyone has different ideas, you may have only scratched the surface, but there's a lot more than just basic platform stages in some competitive stage lists (as well as rules like stalling and stuff). And its fair to say that the skills achieved in the current For Glory would be congruent with tournament skills in many ways. I do feel however that tournament experience is pivotal to vast and efficient improvement, and even if these tournaments ran FD only they'd still be better for learning than online play.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Guys stop trying For Glory unless you want the game to be delayed 6 months. Wait until after it comes out... (nonsensical post)

 

[GUIGUI]

In the end, For Glory is just a way to set online match against randomly selected opponent from all of the web. It's just a quick to go way to have a fair fight against someone without needing to pre-organize everything beforehand. It's a clear improvement compared to the Brawl no-friend online mode, who had technically only a "for Fun" mode. So you want a quick match, tourney style without thinking more about it and select For Glory.