Official For Glory / Online Features Discussion (／・ω・)／

[S_B]

It's entirely possible that characters might be more or less balanced on flat stages

Then Namco has failed by not balancing characters in such circumstances because they chose FD as "the" competitive stage.

TBH, it might be harder to balance characters around stages with platforms than FD.

Again, we won't know until we play, but we do know that things are CHANGING. For example, we know that they're finally giving heavy characters the super armor they need so they're clearly aware that something is warranted to give characters an edge when they lack projectiles (which would be frequently used on FD).

 

[guedes the brawler]

Lets keep it to one stage in for glory mode cuz then It will take a much longer amount of time to wait for another player who picked the same category as you.

Adding another stage and dealing with random stage picks (platforms) is like the same thing as playing "for fun" where a lot of random things happen. If u hate something so tedious, example: COD. then play "for fun" because that can also be playable as competitive.

For glory is for the people that don't like random poop happening. Just keeping it a FD is simple and u know what stage you are going to play on always. Playing on one specific stage is the best way to go. If u played the MMO game "League of Legend" you would understand.

For Fun is for the people that don't care about the random things happening because its more of a thrill for them.

For Glory is not about it being anti-random, it's about it being fair. It's not like the Stage selection wouldn't be on Random anyways

 

[MAGMIS]

For Glory is not about it being anti-random, it's about it being fair. It's not like the Stage selection wouldn't be on Random anyways

No I meant pick stage before picking char. That's what Im implying.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Then Namco has failed by not balancing characters in such circumstances because they chose FD as "the" competitive stage.

TBH, it might be harder to balance characters around stages with platforms than FD.

Again, we won't know until we play, but we do know that things are CHANGING. For example, we know that they're finally giving heavy characters the super armor they need so they're clearly aware that something is warranted to give characters an edge when they lack projectiles (which would be frequently used on FD).

The part you quoted was the "what if" ideal scenario that agrees with what you said. I'm not sure how balancing the cast around FD means Namco has failed.

Again, I'm not advocating this for the sake of the For Glory lobby alone. I'm speaking in terms of being able to use these stages in local play, such as in a local tournament. Having an entire cast of flat stages would be wasted potential for balanced stage variety, even if somehow with the new Smash's mechanics Battlefield was relegated to Counterpick. The ideal scenario in my eyes would be to have around 20 or so local or online tournament legal stages (whether starter or counterpick, assuming that tournaments in the new smash will follow the same stage selection process) that are not all just flat, on top of any standard versions of stages that are not banworthy.

You could call me selfish, but, like I said earlier, I wouldn't mind playing occasionally on a platform layout that doesn't favor my character when playing in the online For Glory mode if it means that I have a huge stage selection to choose from in local play that isn't only flat or ridiculously random. Even if tournament rules only allow playing on the flat stages, I would love to vary the stage choice to stages that aren't garbage when playing friendly 1v1 matches. The "balanced" versions of stages would be in that selection regardless of whether or not they remain "FD" versions, but it's just so much wasted potential in my eyes.

 

[PKBeam]

Lets keep it to one stage in for glory mode cuz then It will take a much longer amount of time to wait for another player who picked the same category as you.

Adding another stage and dealing with random stage picks (platforms) is like the same thing as playing "for fun" where a lot of random things happen. If u hate something so tedious, example: COD. then play "for fun" because that can also be playable as competitive.
For something to be competitive, you have to be able to find out who's the better player. Obviously "for fun" does not fall under this category.

For glory is for the people that don't like random poop happening.
For glory is for people who don't like random "poop" happening... that gives one player an unfair advantage, we really don't care if BF randomly changes to night midmatch because that doesn't affect the outcome of the match.

Just keeping it a FD is simple
Does simple help it become more competitive? If we implemented a simple Fox only rule would that be better?

and u know what stage you are going to play on always. Playing on one specific stage is the best way to go.
No it's not. That's why we have stagelists. An FD only stagelist favours campy characters so it would make Diddy and Fox etc. better than what they actually should be.

If u played the MMO game "League of Legend" you would understand.

For Fun is for the people that don't care about the random things happening because its more of a thrill for them.

Adding more stages makes the mode a LOT more competitive because it raises the skill ceiling by including platform play and pressure etc. "random things" don't happen on BF any more than on FD.

Unless... Sm4sh nerfs camping enough to make FD a prime example of a balanced stage. Even still it'd be better for a larger stagelist.

 

[Starcutter]

MY GLOBAL SMASH POWER IS OVER 9000!

....sorry

(the thread's views is what I was really referring to)

 

[MAGMIS]

MY GLOBAL SMASH POWER IS OVER 9000!

....sorry

(the thread's views is what I was really referring to)

It suks how GSP is only implemented on SOLO play and not online multiplayer. SO DUM! IMO

hopefully there will be someone that will create a site where they keep everyone WINS/LOSSES in "For Glory Mode" and telling us who is top 10 or more.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

It suks how GSP is only implemented on SOLO play and not online multiplayer. SO DUM! IMO

hopefully there will be someone that will create a site where they keep everyone WINS/LOSSES in "For Glory Mode" and telling us who is top 10 or more.

I personally kinda like it. Though it's no good for determining player skill online, it gives the single player modes replayability. Anything that gives the game replayability without forcing it is a good thing in my book.

As far as I understand it, there will be a hidden ELO for matchmaking. It'd be cool if you could see what it is somehow somewhere.

 

[MAGMIS]

I personally kinda like it. Though it's no good for determining player skill online, it gives the single player modes replayability. Anything that gives the game replayability without forcing it is a good thing in my book.

As far as I understand it, there will be a hidden ELO for matchmaking. It'd be cool if you could see what it is somehow somewhere.

Good point about the replayability,

about the elo, ye that's what I was trying to say about hoping that someone will make a site that will show us our stats "For Glory Mode" because im sure only the competitive players (the ones that are trying to climb up their win ratio) are going to check their elo. It will be like League of Legends where u go to lolking.com to check your elo.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Good point about the replayability,

about the elo, ye that's what I was trying to say about hoping that someone will make a site that will show us our stats "For Glory Mode" because im sure only the competitive players (the ones that are trying to climb up their win ratio) are going to check their elo. It will be like League of Legends where u go to lolking.com to check your elo.

Nah, I think even casual players will want to know how high they stack. Even if you don't take the game seriously enough to enter tournaments, it's nice seeing how high your elo stacks up. It's also great for players who would use the mode to play to improve, regardless of how seriously they take the game.

 

[Chiroz]

Good point about the replayability,

about the elo, ye that's what I was trying to say about hoping that someone will make a site that will show us our stats "For Glory Mode" because im sure only the competitive players (the ones that are trying to climb up their win ratio) are going to check their elo. It will be like League of Legends where u go to lolking.com to check your elo.

Hmmm. I could actually get on that. I ain't that great at web design but I do know the math used to calculate elo and have a pretty good idea how to actually gauge the hidden mmr. Although it will be much harder than in those LoL sites since those are based on an average of your last 10 teams visible mmr. (This game is solo and has no visible mmr).


Although some sort of connectivity to the Nintendo network would be needed. Because the site would need to update by checking Nintendo's own database. I don't think Nintendo would allow for that.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Not that I don't appreciate For Glory mode, it's a great idea, but it's got a major flaw.

Final Destination is certainly not the only competitive stage. Platform stages like Battlefield, Smashville, or Yoshi's Story are fair stages as well. Once people find out what characters are most advantageous on Final Destination, the other characters will disappear from online play. I imagine every single match being mirror matches ....like the Ice Climbers in Brawl or Fox in Melee. Fox only, no items, Final Destination is nothing more than a meme.

I think I'll just do online with friends, going to For Glory every once in a while to check up on how far it's gone downhill.

 

[S_B]

The part you quoted was the "what if" ideal scenario that agrees with what you said. I'm not sure how balancing the cast around FD means Namco has failed.

I'm really just saying that, in a perfect world, every character would be balanced on FD anyway.

This may NEVER happen, but that's hopefully what post-release balance patches are for.

 

[MAGMIS]

Not that I don't appreciate For Glory mode, it's a great idea, but it's got a major flaw.

Final Destination is certainly not the only competitive stage. Platform stages like Battlefield, Smashville, or Yoshi's Story are fair stages as well. Once people find out what characters are most advantageous on Final Destination, the other characters will disappear from online play. I imagine every single match being mirror matches ....like the Ice Climbers in Brawl or Fox in Melee. Fox only, no items, Final Destination is nothing more than a meme.

I think I'll just do online with friends, going to For Glory every once in a while to check up on how far it's gone downhill.

The game will most likely be balanced around final destination, thats why FD is the only stage to play on online. So you won't be seeing fox online every game. I'm PRETTY SURE SAKURAI IS LEARNING THE MISTAKES ON BRAWL ONLINE PLAY. cuz he add bans/reports and competitive mode with a casual mode for online. His learning and knows.

 

[Deleted member]

This was one of the non-character aspect that I wanted to see out of online the most and it's great to hear that it looks as we're getting a big upgrade here. Now I hope that online does not lag to hell and back.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

The game will most likely be balanced around final destination, thats why FD is the only stage to play on online. So you won't be seeing fox online every game. I'm PRETTY SURE SAKURAI IS LEARNING THE MISTAKES ON BRAWL ONLINE PLAY. cuz he add bans/reports and competitive mode with a casual mode for online. His learning and knows.

Balancing the characters around Final Destination would create its own problems. Smash generally has more stages with platforms (or large elevation changes) than the other way around. So if he did do that it would be balancing the roster around the minority of stages in the game.

 

[MAGMIS]

Balancing the characters around Final Destination would create its own problems. Smash generally has more stages with platforms (or large elevation changes) than the other way around. So if he did do that it would be balancing the roster around the minority of stages in the game.

With items on, it's possible to win with any character on any stage. Since for fun mode will have everything on. Trust me I've done it in brawl with that unbalanced roster what we so call when "we turn off item".

Since competitive players will be playing only on FD, it really won't matter about the other stages. Because its balanced around FD and you will be only playing on FD like the competitive Japan players which is where sakurai is getting this idea.

If you want to play on other stages cuz ur missing out the "fun" by plaing only FD by all means play the exciting "For Fun" mode.

 

[S_B]

Balancing the characters around Final Destination would create its own problems. Smash generally has more stages with platforms (or large elevation changes) than the other way around. So if he did do that it would be balancing the roster around the minority of stages in the game.

But that only really matters at the high end of play.

Once again, we're jumping the gun. We're complaining about how the horse will pull the cart before it's even built.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

With items on, it's possible to win with any character on any stage. Since for fun mode will have everything on. Trust me I've done it in brawl with that unbalanced roster what we so call when "we turn off item".

Since competitive players will be playing only on FD, it really won't matter about the other stages. Because its balanced around FD and you will be only playing on FD like the competitive Japan players which is where sakurai is getting this idea.

If you want to play on other stages cuz ur missing out the "fun" by plaing only FD by all means play the exciting "For Fun" mode.

However, competitive players do no just play Final Destination. In fact, out of the three neutral tournament stages in Brawl ( Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville ) - two of them have platforms. And from what we have seen in Smash 4, it appears that the current game will have at least these three in terms of competitive play. So basically, at best Final Destination only represents a third of what competitive people will play on.

I was kind of wondering if the japanese actually only picked Final Destination ( or heavily favored it ) like many people have been claiming. After doing like two minutes of research it seems like that isn't the case like many people have been claiming.

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl/Tournaments/Japanese_Ruleset

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinW09VHkjs

But that only really matters at the high end of play.

Once again, we're jumping the gun. We're complaining about how the horse will pull the cart before it's even built.

Read my other posts, already explained why I think I'm not jumping the gun.

 

[MAGMIS]

However, competitive players do no just play Final Destination. In fact, out of the three neutral tournament stages in Brawl ( Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville ) - two of them have platforms. And from what we have seen in Smash 4, it appears that the current game will have at least these three in terms of competitive play. So basically, at best Final Destination only represents a third of what competitive people will play on.

I was kind of wondering if the japanese actually only picked Final Destination ( or heavily favored it ) like many people have been claiming. After doing like two minutes of research it seems like that isn't the case like many people have been claiming.

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl/Tournaments/Japanese_Ruleset

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinW09VHkjs




Read my other posts, already explained why I think I'm not jumping the gun.

What u said still doesn't change the fact that competitive players "WILL" play only on FD on glory mode in the new Ssb. Like I said once again if u miss playing platforms go play "For Fun" because that mode can also be played competitively cuz every character has a chance of winning in "For Fun" mode through skill.

And again key sentence,

THEM BALANCING CHAR AROUND FD ONLY (with no items) MEANS ALL CHARACTER WILL BE PLAYABLE WITH THAT STAGE ONLY.

so u won't see fox in every match on "For Glory", chill have faith in sakurai "This time" cuz we have for glory mode rather than just one mode straight up.

So I don't get what the issue is, if u want to play competitively with different stages cuz u so miss the platforms then go play the other mode competitively. The mode that's given to us which is "For glory" is basically for "Fighting genre gamers" (those who play street fighter, guilty gear, marvel vs capcom, etc....)

I'm going to say it the third time, u wanna play smash bros then play "For Fun" competivly and if u want to play Street fighter with smash bros "game mechanics" competitively then go play "For glory" mode. So far in my eyes that's how sakurai divided it. he was one of the top 10 players on street fighter 2 on the arcades. He has played those "fighting games" and was good at it. His trying to grab all kinds of people NOT minority.

Deal with what's given to you, also try to understand why sakurai did it before raging at him. I'm not saying you will, just saying it before hand.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

What u said still doesn't change the fact that competitive players "WILL" play only on FD on glory mode in the new Ssb. Like I said once again if u miss playing platforms go play "For Fun" because that mode can also be played competitively cuz every character has a chance of winning in "For Fun" mode through skill.

And again key sentence,

THEM BALANCING CHAR AROUND FD ONLY MEANS ALL CHARACTER WILL BE PLAYABLE WITH THAT STAGE ONLY.

so u won't see fox in every match on "For Glory", chill have faith in sakurai "This time" cuz we have for glory mode this time.

So I don't get what the issue is, if u want to play competitively with different stages cuz u so miss the platforms then go play the other mode competitively. The mode that's given to us which is "For glory" is basically for "Fighting genre gamers" (those who play street fighter, guilty gear, marvel vs capcom, etc....)

I'm going to say it the third time, u wanna play smash bros then play "For Fun" competivly and if u want to play Street fighter with smash bros game mechanics then go play "For glory" mode.

I can't play For Fun competitively because it has items ( I'm not using the term competitive here just to mean "trying to win" ). The fact is, For Fun doesn't emphasize player skill as much as For Glory does because it contains 3rd party elements (items,hazards,etc) that often determines victory.If I'm trying to test my skill, why would I go to a place where victory could instantly be decided by a Starman that just so happens to fall into my opponent's lap?

You say the mode is made for "fighting genre gamers," but you seem to not know who that is exactly. Those "fighting genre gamers" are the same people playing on Battlefield and Smashville also. This isn't about trying to make Smash play like Street Fighter or not - people who play this mode aren't trying to play Street Fighter Smash Bros Edition.

Also, you kind of missed my point. Even if the roster is balanced around FInal Destination, it's not a good idea to do so because that stage only represents a small portion of the Smash ( and even Smash competitive ) stages. Competitive players don't want just a flat stage - what they actually want is a fair stage ( and set-up). If you balanced just around Final Destination you'll create a system where competitive players see these other viable stages but can't use them because Sakurai decided from false reasoning to balance the game around only a particular type of stage.

 

[MAGMIS]

I can't play For Fun competitively because it has items ( I'm not using the term competitive here just to mean "trying to win" ). The fact is, For Fun doesn't emphasize player skill as much as For Glory does because it contains 3rd party elements (items,hazards,etc) that often determines victory.If I'm trying to test my skill, why would I go to a place where victory could instantly be decided by a Starman that just so happens to fall into my opponent's lap?

You say the mode is made for "fighting genre gamers," but you seem to not know who that is exactly. Those "fighting genre gamers" are the same people playing on Battlefield and Smashville also. This isn't about trying to make Smash play like Street Fighter or not - people who play this mode aren't trying to play Street Fighter Smash Bros Edition.

Also, you kind of missed my point. Even if the roster is balanced around FInal Destination, it's not a good idea to do so because that stage only represents a small portion of the Smash ( and even Smash competitive ) stages. Competitive players don't want just a flat stage - what they actually want is a fair stage ( and set-up). If you balanced just around Final Destination you'll create a system where competitive players see these other viable stages but can't use them because Sakurai decided from false reasoning to balance the game around only a particular type of stage.

So far ur helping me out proving my points somewhat. Yes exactly what I mean competitive players does not want third element, they want no random interference between the fight meaning they want to know what's going to happen in terms of "only stage elements". I've been trying to imply that "Fair fight".

Now, what happens is then if u get picked with a poop stage where your char isn't good at, then really most likely u lost against a char that has a high advantage on that stage. Because it is impossible to balance "all" (45 char approx) characters "very well" around more than 1 stage. (PERIOD) lol If u still want to take that disadvantage then play "For fun" because you will be in situation where your at a disadvantage. That's why we stick to 1 stage for a game where it has around (going to be approx) 48 characters. Same applies to League of Legend that game plays competitively, imagine them having to add more than 1 "main" map for a 120 char (aka champs) roster. Yes the game will be totally unbalanced especially when u don't know what stage your going to be in before battle. Even if we're able to select stage before battle the loading time will be so long to match another player with that stage and "CHAR CHOICE WILL BE MINIMIZED BASED ON THAT STAGE". Good example: Fox + FD....

Therefore "KEEP IT SIMPLE" and game will be balance more likely rather then getting more hectic as your trying to balance a game with 48 char approx. with different stages.

The lesser the stage > the balance with huge roster.

I would agree with you about having more than 1-5 stages if "the roster wasn't so big" but it is.

But this game will have a massive char list, so it's waaaaay better to just focus on one stage. You will get much much much better results for a "Fair fight" compared to focusing multiple stages.

Don't tell me brawl/melee had more than 1 stage. This game is going to be different from that version in terms of char roster size and characters themselves and gameplay system.

"Adding a character isn't a simple addition to the roster in terms of balancing, it's multiplying"

So don't give sakurai headache. It's insane to add even 1 more stage and to balance it around 2 stages with 45 char or so in the next Ssb.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

It's impossible to balance out every stage for every character. That much is true. But we're not asking for perfect balance in terms of stages on a whole. I don't mind if some 60:40 matchups show up among my 50:50s, because I prefer having relatively balanced variety over playing only one stage.

In tournaments, that's what stage striking is for. In Project M tourny rules (for the sake of example), you have about 7 neutral stages and about 7 counterpick stages. The 7 neutrals aren't perfectly balanced for the entire roster. However, with good striking, the first round can usually take place on even footing, as the advantageous stages for either character are usually the first to get stricken. As for counterpicks, you have about 14 stages to choose from, and, for the losing player, claiming an advantageous stage setup is the name of the game. Go nuts.

In Glory mode, the stages will probably be selected randomly, so stage striking is impossible. I don't care about that, though. If I wanted a perfectly even online match, I'd play against a friend with my own stage selection, or I'd play in local or online tournaments. In Glory mode, I don't care if I get the occasional slightly disadvantageous match up due to a platform layout my character doesn't like, because the sheer (relatively balanced) variety of stages available for Glory mode and local play MORE than makes up for it.

And damn, dude. Don't even get me started on why playing the For Fun mode "competitively" is a terrible idea. By all means, play to win, but there's more to playing "competitively" than just trying to win.

 

[MAGMIS]

It's impossible to balance out every stage for every character. That much is true. But we're not asking for perfect balance in terms of stages on a whole. I don't mind if some 60:40 matchups show up among my 50:50s, because I prefer having relatively balanced variety over playing only one stage.

In tournaments, that's what stage striking is for. In Project M tourny rules (for the sake of example), you have about 7 neutral stages and about 7 counterpick stages. The 7 neutrals aren't perfectly balanced for the entire roster. However, with good striking, the first round can usually take place on even footing, as the advantageous stages for either character are usually the first to get stricken. As for counterpicks, you have about 14 stages to choose from, and, for the losing player, claiming an advantageous stage setup is the name of the game. Go nuts.

In Glory mode, the stages will probably be selected randomly, so stage striking is impossible. I don't care about that, though. If I wanted a perfectly even online match, I'd play against a friend with my own stage selection, or I'd play in local or online tournaments. In Glory mode, I don't care if I get the occasional slightly disadvantageous match up due to a platform layout my character doesn't like, because the sheer (relatively balanced) variety of stages available for Glory mode and local play MORE than makes up for it.

And damn, dude. Don't even get me started on why playing the For Fun mode "competitively" is a terrible idea. By all means, play to win, but there's more to playing "competitively" than just trying to win.

I never said perfect balance, I said, it can't be "very well" balanced with 45 char or is in the next Ssb.

......read my post again.....make sure u read every little word I mention.

You can't apply the tournament rules in online matches that will take too long to start a match. So stop mentioning about tournament rules and the past games too. That tournament paragraph was pointless to read. Different and brand new Ssb.

Trust me it won't be "slight" (100% sure) disadvantage it will be "HUGE" disadvantage. See u don't get it what I mean by unbalanced when more than 1 stage is applied to "more than 45 char in Ssb". I don't want to hear random stages, cuz like I said again you will want to pick your char "THAT YOU LUV AND PLAY" and if u get stuck with a poop stage where your opponent has the huge advantage on that stage while u have a huge disadvantage. Is not fair and bs and "uncalled for". Cuz I want to test my skill if I'm better, if I lose based on that situation I mentioned (before this sentence) then I won't know "FOR SURE" that I am better than him or not.

Try to get the picture,

45-55 char in next Ssb,
+
Balancing them around 2+ stages?

Compared to

45-55 char in next Ssb
+
1 stage, "No random", "all char are based on that stage not just a minor char from the whole char roster"

I would take the second option, cuz u already "cannot" balance a game with 45 characters with multiple stages. It's already VERY DIFFICULT enough to balance with 1 stage.

Therefore,
You can though "at least" "very well" balance a game with 45 character based on 1 stage. You will get a better result of "Fair fight".

If you don't mind the HUGE (not slight) disadvantage, then go play "For Fun".

 

[Tremendo Dude]

I never said perfect balance, I said, it can't be "very well" balanced with 45 char or is in the next Ssb.

My apologies, I assumed you meant perfect, because the assertion you actually made (that adding some slight variation and some platforms here and there to some of the stages will cause a huge rift between characters if the stages are chosen randomly) is even MORE ridiculous.

......read my post again.....make sure u read every little word I mention.

Did. My point still stands.

You can't apply the tournament rules in online matches that will take too long to start a match.

Nowhere did I imply that I would use all tournament rules in friendly online matches. Hell, I don't even strike in friendly local matches. If I want to play a set, though, we would end up picking a stage or even striking to a stage that's even for both of us. That stage may or may not be FD.

So stop mentioning about tournament rules and the past games too. That tournament paragraph was pointless to read. Different and brand new Ssb.

I was citing Project M as an example of a smash game that is relatively balanced character-wise and has a variety of "balanced" stages. The fact that it's not ssb4 is irrelevant. I'm making a point that even with a large roster of 40 or so characters and a large stage selection, the game COULD be relatively balanced.

Trust me it won't be "slight" (100% sure) disadvantage it will be "HUGE" disadvantage. See u don't get it what I mean by unbalanced when more than 1 stage is applied to "more than 45 char in Ssb". I don't want to hear random stages, cuz like I said again you will want to pick your char "THAT YOU LUV AND PLAY" and if u get stuck with a poop stage where your opponent has the huge advantage on that stage while u have a huge disadvantage. Is not fair and bs and "uncalled for". Cuz I want to test my skill if I'm better, if I lose based on that situation I mentioned (before this sentence) then I won't know "FOR SURE" that I am better than him or not.

So you'd cry foul if you got placed on Battlefield instead of FD? How about Smashville? Yoshi's Island in Brawl or Dreamland 64? Do those stages grant 30:70 matchups? Older games, but the same point applies. A slight stage variation doesn't make or break a match dramatically. The disadvantage would not be HUGE.

Try to get the picture,

45-55 char in next Ssb,
+
Balancing them around 2+ stages?

Compared to

45-55 char in next Ssb
+
1 stage, "No random", "all char are based on that stage not just a minor char from the whole char roster"

I would take the second option, cuz u already "cannot" balance a game with 45 characters with multiple stages. It's already VERY DIFFICULT enough to balance with 1 stage.

Keep in mind that we're not Sakurai's only, or even ,largest, consumer base. The game isn't being "balanced" for 1v1 FD. It's also being "balanced" for Free for All "Fun matches. You're expecting a miracle from Nintendo and Namco, but you're not getting one. I don't expect a miracle. I just want to have some gauze handy in the aftermath, as well as a larger roster consisting of interesting, non-interfering stages. No one's gonna take away FD from you anywhere but a few matches in Glory mode.

Therefore,
You can though "at least" "very well" balance a game with 45 character based on 1 stage. You will get a better result of "Fair fight".

If you don't mind the HUGE (not slight) disadvantage, then go play "For Fun".

I'm gonna pretend you never said that last bit and we'll leave it at that.

Replies in bold.

 

[MAGMIS]

Replies in bold My apologies, I assumed you meant perfect, because the assertion you actually made (that adding some slight variation and some platforms here and there to some of the stages will cause a huge rift between characters if the stages are chosen randomly) is even MORE ridiculous. .

It's ridiculous? LOL, do u know hitboxes, frames, positioning? u know all that right?

U know what, I think for you to understand what I've been trying to point out, is first you "TRY" making a "very well" balanced 2d fighting platform game with a couple of stages and 45-50 char roster size. go do that first, then tell me its ridiculous, if you can succeed that is. lol. GOOD LUCK!

Make sure u get your video game bachelor first and become a pro before making that dream game of yours. lol

 

[Tremendo Dude]

It's not my job to make video games, but that doesn't make my opinion any more valid than it makes yours valid. I'm just pointing out through the Project M example that it can be done, not that it's easy to do or that I even expect it to be done right the first time.

The ridiculous bit is the assertion that slight variety in stages would give "HUGE" advantages and disadvantages to certain characters which would outweigh the benefits of relatively balanced unintrusive stage variety.

You're expecting the game to be extremely balanced for FD in a 1v1 setting, and you're saying the only/best way to keep it fair (in Glory mode as well as Local/Online play with friends) is to make 20 versions of the same stage and force everyone to play on them. Pardon me if I can't think of this as anything but a huge waste of potential.

Let's put it this way. Let's say the 1v1 Glory mode is locked on a 2min time limit. Would it still be your most played mode? Would you play local or online with friends more often? If you played local or online, would you only play on the flat stages? Would it kill you if 10 of those 20 flat stages were given some platforms? Would it not make things more interesting for everyone while still giving you a nice handful of stages to choose from if you really only want flat stages? Dont bring up the "normal" stages for this, because it's already a given. I'm speaking hypotheticals here.

If it turns out more effort was put into balancing the cast for free-for-alls than 1v1, and 1v1 is only semi balanced in the end for "simple" balanced stages (like it's been in other smash games), will you still only play on FD stages every round?

All I'm saying that we're all speaking hypotheticals. The Glory mode has about as much chance of being stock matches as it does having more varied stages. I don't see myself playing Glory mode more oftan than local matches, but I can't help but see 20 versions of the exact same stage (barring the underside) as a massive waste of potential. Varying up the "balanced" versions of the stages may kick the balance a bit (not a "HUGE" amount like you insinuate), but the game as a whole for ALL kinds of players, casual AND hardcore, would be better for it.

 

[MAGMIS]

It's not my job to make video games, but that doesn't make my opinion any more valid than it makes yours valid. I'm just pointing out through the Project M example that it can be done, not that it's easy to do or that I even expect it to be done right the first time.

The ridiculous bit is the assertion that slight variety in stages would give "HUGE" advantages and disadvantages to certain characters which would outweigh the benefits of relatively balanced unintrusive stage variety.

You're expecting the game to be extremely balanced for FD in a 1v1 setting, and you're saying the only/best way to keep it fair (in Glory mode as well as Local/Online play with friends) is to make 20 versions of the same stage and force everyone to play on them. Pardon me if I can't think of this as anything but a huge waste of potential.

Let's put it this way. Let's say the 1v1 Glory mode is locked on a 2min time limit. Would it still be your most played mode? Would you play local or online with friends more often? If you played local or online, would you only play on the flat stages? Would it kill you if 10 of those 20 flat stages were given some platforms? Would it not make things more interesting for everyone while still giving you a nice handful of stages to choose from if you really only want flat stages? Dont bring up the "normal" stages for this, because it's already a given. I'm speaking hypotheticals here.

If it turns out more effort was put into balancing the cast for free-for-alls than 1v1, and 1v1 is only semi balanced in the end for "simple" balanced stages (like it's been in other smash games), will you still only play on FD stages every round?

All I'm saying that we're all speaking hypotheticals. The Glory mode has about as much chance of being stock matches as it does having more varied stages. I don't see myself playing Glory mode more oftan than local matches, but I can't help but see 20 versions of the exact same stage (barring the underside) as a massive waste of potential. Varying up the "balanced" versions of the stages may kick the balance a bit (not a "HUGE" amount like you insinuate), but the game as a whole for ALL kinds of players, casual AND hardcore, would be better for it.

You just said the samething twice (replies in bold+underlined) after you I told you why. That's why I told u to go make that game of yours FIRST.


Project M and the new SSb is different games, lol don't mention past games of Ssb because they are different and not the same. Ex: Char roster size/ Gamespeed/ Hit stun, etc..... (I mentioned this already too)

Im not expecting to be extremely balanced, I'm telling you directly that IT will not be quite balanced if u were to focus multiple stages (comparing), it will become a huge mess. WE MIGHT AS WELL SAY LETS BALANCE IT AROUND WITH MULTIPLE STAGES AND ITEMS TO KEEP IT INTERESTING.....lol GOOD LUCK!!!
By the way u can customize your own online matches amongst friends, play on different stages with items on or off, etc..... But I'm talking about Glory mode amongst others online and to "keep it simple" in online.

If im playing with friends (which is usually when were playing for fun), I will play many other stages besides FD to keep things enjoyable and not tedious. But as a Serious and competitive playerI YES I will go play FD only amongst many other players/friends to test my skills. KEEP IT SIMPLE.

See, the way the game is built is you can still play the way you want (agreed), different stages, items, and its all up to you "amongst friends" ( its impossible to do it with strangers obviously cuz the "waiting time" will be so long in online) to keep things interesting and still winnable even in online, but for the people that are craving for online serious competitive play "For Glory" is at its best to test your skills with the char we play a lot and LUV against others.

IF the game were to balanced on Free-for-all instead of 1v1? your point?. lol You don't see yourself playing Glory mode, that's cool out of the hundreds of players will be playing Glory mode daily with the 25+ varied FD stages and bg music.

Also, how is it a waste of potential (I think your just speaking out of your own opinion (what u hate or what not) )? lol For them to make 20 varied FD didn't take much time, because they didn't start off from scratch. That's not even the point. The point is it was worth it to not make us feel tedious on the bg music and pic. I'm pretty sure you've played other fighting games haven't you? So you're telling me that All the 2d background stages that was made in that fighting game was pointless? LOL........BTW you starting to get out of topic with that statement.........

I'm starting to wonder
- do u even play competitive fighting games?
- Are u good at them?
- Do you understand how they work? (Which I highly doubt based off of your comments)
- Do you enjoy playing them?

Those question are for you only based on your statements so far,
If NO, you seem like more of a casual player that belong in "For Fun" section which now I know why u say u want stages with platforms. You want to be interested in playing those stages, then being interested in playing a fair match against the other player.
If YES, good then stop arguing/whining about the "For Glory" mode and I bet you will play this mode a lot. Deal with it please.

For the players want to play other stages, go play other stages who's stopping you. lol

I'm sure another guy is gona pop up going to complain/whine just like you did. lol hopefully they read first. which I doubt they would. DEAL WITH IT PLEASE & accept whats given to you.

HAVE FAITH IN SAKURAI. HIS CHANGED!

I THINK ITS BEST WE CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION AFTER THE GAME HAS COME OUT. :D ok?

 

[Tremendo Dude]

You just said the samething twice (replies in bold+underlined) after you I told you why. That's why I told u to go make that game of yours FIRST.

I repeated/rephrased it because you didn't seem to get it. Apparently you understood but you're just greatly exaggerating it.

Project M and the new SSb is different games, lol don't mention past games of Ssb because they are different and not the same. Ex: Char roster size/ Gamespeed/ Hit stun, etc..... (I mentioned this already too)

Yes, they differ in that regard. Each game changes the mechanics in that regard, but the game's rules have not changed. The rules for the next game will not change either. Project M was an example, not an ideal.

Im not expecting to be extremely balanced, I'm telling you directly that IT will not be quite balanced if u were to focus multiple stages (comparing), it will become a huge mess. WE MIGHT AS WELL SAY LETS BALANCE IT AROUND WITH MULTIPLE STAGES AND ITEMS TO KEEP IT INTERESTING.....lol GOOD LUCK!!!
By the way u can customize your own online matches amongst friends, play on different stages with items on or off, etc..... But I'm talking about Glory mode amongst others online and to "keep it simple" in online.

And I'm saying I don't think it will be very well balanced, looking to history. Unless there's post-release balance patches, nothing is perfect the first time around. Especially when 1v1 FD battles are probably lower priority in the devs' eyes than free-for-alls. As for customized matches, yes that is a thing you can do. It's a thing I acknowledged. I just think the game would be a lot better for the variety in all other aspects, and the "balance" wouldn't suffer that much compared to if it wasn't all just one stage. Maybe that's not the case. I'd say we'll see, but by then it'll be too late to make this kind of suggestion.

If im playing with friends (which is usually when were playing for fun), I will play many other stages besides FD to keep things enjoyable and not tedious. But as a Serious and competitive playerI YES I will go play FD only amongst many other players/friends to test my skills. KEEP IT SIMPLE.

Unless it turns out like the older games, in which FD grants advantage to characters like Little Mac who excel on the ground. We can't know for sure either way, and I like learning from history. It's why I'm not as hyped for this game as I was for Brawl.

See, the way the game is built is you can still play the way you want (agreed), different stages, items, and its all up to you "amongst friends" ( its impossible to do it with strangers obviously cuz the "waiting time" will be so long in online) to keep things interesting and still winnable even in online, but for the people that are craving for online serious competitive play "For Glory" is at its best to test your skills with the char we play a lot and LUV against others.

No. People who want to play seriously competitively would not use random online matchmaking, especially not if the mode is locked on 2 minute time. People who want to play seriously competitively online would search for other people to play against in a matchmaking thread on an online community, and would probably play the Glory mode on occasion.

IF the game were to balanced on Free-for-all instead of 1v1? your point?. lol You don't see yourself playing Glory mode, that's cool out of the hundreds of players will be playing Glory mode daily with the 25+ varied FD stages and bg music.

If the game is balanced Free-for-all, it's not balanced for 1v1. So FD would not be the ideal 1v1 stage in that case. I'm throwing what-ifs out, but we honestly can't know the future.

Also, how is it a waste of potential (I think your just speaking out of your own opinion (what u hate or what not) )? lol For them to make 20 varied FD didn't take much time, because they didn't start off from scratch. That's not even the point. The point is it was worth it to not make us feel tedious on the bg music and pic. I'm pretty sure you've played other fighting games haven't you? So you're telling me that All the 2d background stages that was made in that fighting game was pointless? LOL........BTW you starting to get out of topic with that statement.........

It's a waste of potential because you have 20 of the same stage instead of 20 potentially different but still good stages. It doesn't take much time to put in some stock prop platforms either. I would think it tedious to play on the same stage layout because it's essentially the same stage (though it's less tedious than only playing on the 3 brawl stages, for example). I do play some other fighters (particularly Guilty Gear), but the stage is not the focus of other fighting games like it is in Smash. It's not pointless, and I never said it was pointless. I just think it could be so much more.

I'm starting to wonder
- do u even play competitive fighting games?
The only fighting game I play competitively is Smash Bros, though I play Guilty Gear on occasion as well.

- Are u good at them?
I'd like to think so, yes. I play at local tournaments and hold my own. I beat almost everyone I know, except for tourney vets who I tend to even out with.

- Do you understand how they work? (Which I highly doubt based off of your comments)
Yes. I'm aware of the hidden mechanics and how a slight change here and there can completely curve the character's matchups in one direction or another, and I'm well aware of how difficult it is to balance a cast in the first shot. That's why my hopes aren't that high for very good balance the first time through, if there are even balance patches released.

- Do you enjoy playing them?
Most definitely.

Those question are for you only based on your statements so far,
If NO, you seem like more of a casual player that belong in "For Fun" section which now I know why u say u want stages with platforms. You want to be interested in playing those stages, then being interested in playing a fair match against the other player.
If YES, good then stop arguing/whining about the "For Glory" mode and I bet you will play this mode a lot. Deal with it please.

I will have to deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to praise it when I think it could be a lot better. Especially when my opinion seems to be the majority opinion. You're the only person I've met who's disagreed so far.

For the players want to play other stages, go play other stages who's stopping you. lol
I will, but if I want a good fight without interferences, I wouldn't have too many stages aside from the FDs. I think the variety would make things better for everyone except maybe for people who play nothing but Glory mode and want FD every round.

I'm sure another guy is gona pop up going to complain/whine just like you did. lol hopefully they read first. which I doubt they would. DEAL WITH IT PLEASE & accept whats given to you.

HAVE FAITH IN SAKURAI. HIS CHANGED!
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
I THINK ITS BEST WE CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION AFTER THE GAME HAS COME OUT. :D ok?
By then it will be too late.

Replies in bold again.

 

[skstylez]

I haven't read all 8 pages, but I feel this needs to be said...

Until we know how Sm4sh truly plays, I don't think we can decide what's going to work for competitive stages.

This is a whole new game, balanced by a whole new team, one who actually knows HOW to balance fighting games. If they choose FD for "the" competitive stage, I trust that they're not going to do it without extensive testing to ensure that the stage isn't horribly unfavorable to any characters in particular.

I also expect that we'll be seeing post release balance patches. So in the end, I'm not worried about it. We can't approach SSB4 with the mindset that it'll give similar advantage/disadvantage to certain characters on FD as Brawl did.

You raise a good point but I strongly disagree. Nintendo likes to get their games out in completion so we can't expect a patch even with an outcry of players. They'll fix game breaking bugs, but this doesn't fall under that.
This IS the best time to be sending requests. We know the balance of FD, we've had 3 smash games. Every character is different and has advantages/disadvantages, variety what keeps things fair

 

[S_B]

You raise a good point but I strongly disagree. Nintendo likes to get their games out in completion so we can't expect a patch even with an outcry of players. They'll fix game breaking bugs, but this doesn't fall under that.

But what does Namco do?

This IS the best time to be sending requests. We know the balance of FD, we've had 3 smash games. Every character is different and has advantages/disadvantages, variety what keeps things fair

How do we know the balance of FD in a game with retooled characters that none of us have ever played?

 

[skstylez]

But what does Namco do?



How do we know the balance of FD in a game with retooled characters that none of us have ever played?

yes, but that's soul calibur. Smash is a different breed of fighting game. One stage will never be evenly balanced for all characters, though most agree battlefield has the most going for it. Plus that stupid "fox only no items FD" is extremely boring, a stereotype made by casuals to describe their perception of us

I'm just thankful we have a gamepad and miiverse and a NNID. It should be lot less hassle free as the old friend code exchange was

 

[S_B]

yes, but that's soul calibur. Smash is a different breed of fighting game. One stage will never be evenly balanced for all characters

I still say we wait and see because there are a number of things they could do to make FD more balanced FOR all characters.

Also, this is the first SSB where they've acknowledged the competitive side of things and we know they release patches for games. If any SSB was likely to receive post-release balance patches, it's this one.

And again, if they're CHOOSING FD as "the" competitive stage, they SHOULD understand that they're implying it'll be the most balanced stage to play on

So, unless they're mouth-breathing idiots, they know how much they'll be chastised if they DON'T balance characters around FD.

Also, Nintendo is hosting its first SSB tournament: http://smashboards.com/threads/e3-2014-super-smash-bros-invitational.353883/

I feel safe in saying that they're acknowledging the competitive SSB community this time out.

 

[skstylez]

I feel safe in saying that they're acknowledging the competitive SSB community this time out.

That is fact, no one will deny this. It still doesn't have much to do with the balance of FD. There should never be a tournament where only 1 stage is allowed. And even if there was, FD shouldn't rank near the top
I'm not calling it unplayable, it's just not the best course of action. What is and what isn't a 'neutral' stage is pretty clear. It's only because of Japan that we are getting FD exclusive stages

 

[Road Death Wheel]

That is fact, no one will deny this. It still doesn't have much to do with the balance of FD. There should never be a tournament where only 1 stage is allowed. And even if there was, FD shouldn't rank near the top
I'm not calling it unplayable, it's just not the best course of action. What is and what isn't a 'neutral' stage is pretty clear. It's only because of Japan that we are getting FD exclusive stages

well the most we can do is see how he tournament will work rather than being strictly stubborn to trying new tournament rules.
It like pokemon where the smogon community made its meta game in doubles and the pokemon company has it meta game tourny's with VGC and its own rules set for doubles. So basically im saying the we can fully function as a competitive community with 2 different meta games witch i think would be awesome.
The FD meta and the community meta.( i might make a thread of this later.

 

[Shaya]

"The type of player that would frequent the For Glory lobby probably spent a lot of time on Final Destination in previous titles"

Let me decipher this a little, under my interpretations.
I'll start off with what can contradict what I'll say though, the translation states "titles", in other words implying both Brawl and Melee.
Either way, I took this to mean the online players of Brawl primarily, as it is most definitely a standard that exists in online play due to the expectation/actualisation of multiple frames of dynamic input delay. In the anonymous lobbies I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of players would pick Final Destination (from my experience this was the case), and if you picked wonky stages you'd often be able to tell very quickly your opponent is suddenly a CPU (they quit). In friends matches there is an agreement in stage choice usually, but the issues of delay still existed.
Otherwise, if anyone has ever participated in/seen the rulesets for "Smash Tournaments" being helped by or run by Nintendo, often there would be a clause that all matches are on Final Destination, or at the very least the Grand Finals would always be on FD. In other words, FD has been in Sakurai's mind as the base competitive stage for all of these years and is now choosing to be more forceful of his intents. A mixture of either or perhaps he's specifically catering to the online crowd in For Glory, who knows.

 

[Bonk!]

I think FD is the only stage he can have because of the way ranking works. The "world smash power" or whatever its called is meant to record your ranking in general. Basically Sakurai doesnt want the system to think you're good at FD if you've been playing on BF the whole time. To compensate for this he gave us the different forms of FD. He doesnt really want this to be the new meta as much as he just wants it to be something to do when we arent playing with friends or at an event. Sakurai definitley understands that FD isnt the only stage we play on. It's just that he doesnt want to make an overly complicated system and seeing how FD is thought to be the most balanced stage (which of course is arguable due to advantages of certain characters) this makes it (and its forms) the perfect candidate for For Glory Mode.

Hope that makes sense to some of you

As of now my only concern is whether or not there will be stock matches. I like stock.. a lot.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think FD is the only stage he can have because of the way ranking works. The "world smash power" or whatever its called is meant to record your ranking in general. Basically Sakurai doesnt want the system to think you're good at FD if you've been playing on BF the whole time. To compensate for this he gave us the different forms of FD. He doesnt really want this to be the new meta as much as he just wants it to be something to do when we arent playing with friends or at an event. Sakurai definitley understands that FD isnt the only stage we play on. It's just that he doesnt want to make an overly complicated system and seeing how FD is thought to be the most balanced stage (which of course is arguable due to advantages of certain characters) this makes it (and its forms) the perfect candidate for For Glory Mode.

Hope that makes sense to some of you

As of now my only concern is whether or not there will be stock matches. I like stock.. a lot.

Alas this is understandable but what credentials do you have to speak on sakurai's behalf?

 

[LancerStaff]

I think FD is the only stage he can have because of the way ranking works. The "world smash power" or whatever its called is meant to record your ranking in general. Basically Sakurai doesnt want the system to think you're good at FD if you've been playing on BF the whole time. To compensate for this he gave us the different forms of FD. He doesnt really want this to be the new meta as much as he just wants it to be something to do when we arent playing with friends or at an event. Sakurai definitley understands that FD isnt the only stage we play on. It's just that he doesnt want to make an overly complicated system and seeing how FD is thought to be the most balanced stage (which of course is arguable due to advantages of certain characters) this makes it (and its forms) the perfect candidate for For Glory Mode.

Hope that makes sense to some of you

As of now my only concern is whether or not there will be stock matches. I like stock.. a lot.

Global Smash Power is exclusively for single player...

 

[Tremendo Dude]

With talk right now about the invitational Smash tournament, my hopes are riding a bit on the pros invited making a direct request for not all of the Glory stages to be nothing but flat, and see what happens from there.