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Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

dRevan64

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
355
Location
Philly
Is there a way to press Y to short hop? I'm practicing short hopping for 3 weeks now... Sometimes i get 90%, sometimes 50%, and I can't better that. I just can't press always that fast. Getting frustrated...
Yes, I think most people use Y.
Mew2king's info dump has a list of characters and how much time you have to release the jump button to get a shorthop out, since it needs to be held for less than the frames it takes any given character to leave the ground. So if you're playing Fox you'll have the hardest time with it as you need to release the button within 3 frames.
 

mecawe

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Messages
37
Location
Longueuil, QC
Yes I play fox, I can short hop easily with the majority of the other characters, but fox is giving me rough times...
 

dRevan64

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
355
Location
Philly
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Practice more or try with another controller if you think that might be the problem. Moving and hopping and doing all of fox's stuff consistently takes work.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Yes I play fox, I can short hop easily with the majority of the other characters, but fox is giving me rough times...
Keep in mind it is based on how fast you let go of the button, not how hard you press it. A lot of people try to press the button super lightly, but it's often easier to press it hard and and release it quickly like a sort of quick jab. For me personally, I use Y and A, so I have 3 different positions I angle my thumb at. I either have it angled forward (the end of my thumb pressing Y and my first joint resting on A), angled backward (the end of my thumb resting on Y and my first joint pressing A), or it's parallel to the controller not angled at all (the end of my thumb and first joint are both resting on the buttons without pressing them). When I play, this creates a simple sort of seesaw movement that allows me to quickly switch between jumping and attacking, and because I keep these 3 positions distinctly in my mind, it's easy to release Y quickly and then time my A press however I want. Most importantly, you just need to practice. Some people play for a long time before they can consistently shorthop with Fox and other 3-frame jumpers, so don't get discouraged. If you practice just short hoppping for 10 minutes or so every day and you'll get it down in no time.
 

otter

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
616
Location
Ohio
Can someone link me to a modern official ruleset for melee? More specifically which stages are currently legal.
 

Tarv

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
425
Location
Outside of Pittsburgh
... I guess I deserved that.

Let's try this again: Typically, how many entrants per set-up can you get away with and still run a smooth tournament?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
... I guess I deserved that.

Let's try this again: Typically, how many entrants per set-up can you get away with and still run a smooth tournament?
It varies depending on the size of the tournament and what you plan on running. If you are only doing a double elim bracket for singles with 12 people, then you can finish with just 3 setups pretty easily. If you have 120 people and plan on doing pools, teams, and other games, obviously 30 setups isn't going to scale with the players to allow you to finish in the same amount of time. You have to have a more specific idea in mind of what kind of tournament you want to host, and I would ask in the Tournament Discussion forum since a lot of TOs hang out in there to answer questions like these. There might already be a guide that gives you general time frames for different numbers of entrants/setups.
 

Blother

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Messages
35
What does the neutral game mean? I am assuming this has to do with when the two players are not attacking each other, thus neither player has an advantage (both are on the stage standing at a distance from each other).

My followup question for this would be what are the other states of the game? Some of the terms I hear thrown around would have to do with punishing, out of shield, off the stage (ledgeguarding/recovery?), maybe platforms or air, etc.

There seem to be a lot of terms that I can't find explanations for, unless I'm blind, then you help a brotha out :)

Okay found the videos I was blind :p but I still don't know much about these terms other than what I can infer from what people say.
 

-ShadowPhoenix-

Smash Bash
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
2,295
Location
El Paso, Texas
NNID
ShdwPhnx
3DS FC
2595-1989-8575
Is there a way to press Y to short hop? I'm practicing short hopping for 3 weeks now... Sometimes i get 90%, sometimes 50%, and I can't better that. I just can't press always that fast. Getting frustrated...

You can short hop with Y, X, and the control stick. It's tougher to short hop with certain characters like fox so I would advise practicing it with someone like C. Falcon who is more lenient on the timing.
 

otter

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
616
Location
Ohio
What does the neutral game mean? I am assuming this has to do with when the two players are not attacking each other, thus neither player has an advantage (both are on the stage standing at a distance from each other).

My followup question for this would be what are the other states of the game? Some of the terms I hear thrown around would have to do with punishing, out of shield, off the stage (ledgeguarding/recovery?), maybe platforms or air, etc.

There seem to be a lot of terms that I can't find explanations for, unless I'm blind, then you help a brotha out :)

Okay found the videos I was blind :p but I still don't know much about these terms other than what I can infer from what people say.
Yes, neutral game just means when neither player has frame advantage. Since fighting games are in real time, the term "state" is not used very often. it's either neutral, or one player is under pressure. Feel free to ask more specific things because I'm not really sure what you need.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Yes, neutral game just means when neither player has frame advantage.
It’s more than that. For example, if Marth is in the air and Fox is on the ground, it’s not neutral, but in Fox’s favor even though there is no frame advantage. Marth’s airborne options are just worse than what Fox can do from ground and quick ground-air transitions.
 

Kramwood

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
39
So I've been playing pro smash for about a year now. I've noticed that I've been having this issue with smash in general and it seems to be the focal point of why I'm losing matches. I seem to focus on my own character more often than I focus on the other character/player. I do have some confidence issues, but honestly I do know that I have the ability to win the matches I'm losing and even though I have more than enough tech skill I know that I don't even need, but yet I still get ***** by stupid jab combos. I don't know or understand this. I was wondering if someone could help me overcome this.
 

SAUS

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
866
Location
Ottawa
So I've been playing pro smash for about a year now. I've noticed that I've been having this issue with smash in general and it seems to be the focal point of why I'm losing matches. I seem to focus on my own character more often than I focus on the other character/player. I do have some confidence issues, but honestly I do know that I have the ability to win the matches I'm losing and even though I have more than enough tech skill I know that I don't even need, but yet I still get ***** by stupid jab combos. I don't know or understand this. I was wondering if someone could help me overcome this.
You probably just need more experience. When I play, I watch my opponent almost all the time. Sometimes I will have my character and there's in view and focus at the same time.

I think maybe you have the tech skill but you try to do tech stuff rather than just fight your opponent. You need a balance of the two and it's easy for one of those skills to get ahead of the other, but I think it's easier to realise the problem when it's the other way around where your tech skill is well behind your fighting skill (reading the opponent etc).

Do you get nervous when you play against people?
 

hectohertz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
800
Location
Brooklyn, NY
is the angle you can adjust your trajectory through DI'ing the same for all moves, or is it different depending on the move?

i've noticed that, for instance, falcos f-smash seems like you can REALLY control what angle it sends you, whereas doc's bair seems to send you at almost the same angle regardless.

it also seems like fox's shine is not effected by DI, is that true for all fixed knockback moves?
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
is the angle you can adjust your trajectory through DI'ing the same for all moves, or is it different depending on the move?
i've noticed that, for instance, falcos f-smash seems like you can REALLY control what angle it sends you, whereas doc's bair seems to send you at almost the same angle regardless.
it also seems like fox's shine is not effected by DI, is that true for all fixed knockback moves?
It doesn’t depend on the move, but the internal calculation of angles depending on the values sent by the analog stick’s potentiometers is not continuous.
(angle collection image by ajp_anton)

All x|y-value combinations near cardinal angles become cardinal angles. So, let’s say you are Fox and recovering on FD with Firefox from slightly below the ledge. Ideally, you hold exactly 17.3° (the first angle above the 0° angle). If you have the control stick ever-so-slightly less upwards, let’s say to 17.0°, you will Firefox with 0°.
Now to put this back into perspective: If you are hit by a hitbox that would require you to hold a direction within this white area to gain maximum trajectory DI, this “perfect” angle is not available. Hitboxes always have this property if their angle is also within this white area, for example Fox’ upsmash (80°). The perfect angle to approach horizontal trajectory would be −10° (350°), but this is more than 360°−17.3° = 342.7°, so it will effectively be 360°. Thus, this angle irregularity will cause you to die from his upsmash slightly earlier than if you could DI with the precisely perpendicular angle, which would give you 18° alteration ideally, not taking in controller imperfections. I guess it’s about 2% more you could live with impossible DI, but it’s impossible to test for me.

Shine can actually be DI’d very well because it has 0° knockback, making perpendicular DI easy to attain:


Source for the 18° and controller stuff is Magus420, of course. Here is some more interesting information about it:
Smashing the stick has no effect on trajectory DI in either game (having worked with and modified the assembly code in memory that is run during those routines directly). When you're getting different results smashing it vs holding it's because you are having the stick in a slightly different position on each of those tests. When trajectory DI is to be read, in melee it finds the distance perpendicularly of the default trajectory's slope to the stick's current position, squares that distance, then multiplies that by 0.314159 radians (18 degrees) resulting in the amount the default angle is to be changed by your trajectory DI. Since the edges of the controller can get up to about a distance of 1 (varies by the controller itself and the angle in question) the strongest trajectory DI in melee is around ±18° on all attacks when input full distance perpendicularly. Odd angles like Sheik's f-air can't get a full distance of 1 perpendicularly for the most part because it's inbetween controller notches so they usually can't be DI'd the full 18, but more like 16.5-17.5 or so.


In brawl it's the same formula but does not square it (so a sub-par angle is stronger than it'd be in melee). Also in brawl the stick reaches directional input caps of 1/-1 well before the max range of motion of the stick, so something like diagonally up+right can reach a stick position close to 1,1 (instead of closer to 0.707,0.707 like melee). The strongest trajectory DI is around ±18° on attacks with default trajectories in cardinal directions (perp distance can reach up to 1 as it too would be cardinal), and about ±24° on ordinal trajectories (can get perp distance up to around 1.333).


Pound (and other attack) spike in brawl is when you are hit in the air in that game you can hit floors with ASDI like melee (when hit off the floor ASDI does not trigger a floor collision unlike melee). When you are hit just off the ground, SDI back into the ground, ASDI + trajectory DI into the ground you hit the ground (like melee CCing and instant ground teching). It's not 'SDI knockback inversion'. The floor bounce/tech actions cancel vertical KB, and you are ASDIing towards the floor far enough that it plus the KB away from the floor still has you connect with the floor on the 1st frame, triggering the stage collision.


The trajectory DI in those vids of mine are within the normal range (I don't 'SDI' the trajectory DI either). I am trajectory DIing as low as possible by holding it (usually down+away), and also ASDIing with c-stick directly into the floor along with it (usually straight down). Using c-stick for ASDI lets you ASDI in a different direction than you are holding for trajectory DI.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Also, you probably just got hit by a sourspot hitbox on Falco's fsmash making it look like you DIed it further from the default trajectory of the sweetspot.
 

spacer`1

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
23
I know this isn't a question specific to melee, but I don't know where else to ask it... When you get a new controller, how long does it take to get "broken in?" I noticed that the control stick gets faster the more I play.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
Depends on the controller, how broken in you want it to be, what you are doing with it and how much of that you're doing. So there isn't really an answer to that question.

I personally am rather fine with any controller after ~3h by now *yay* :D
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
I know this isn't a question specific to melee, but I don't know where else to ask it... When you get a new controller, how long does it take to get "broken in?" I noticed that the control stick gets faster the more I play.
During stickbox wear, two things happen. The plastic rails (see the first link in my sig for details) decrease in thickness due to friction and a little gap forms that accounts for a loose zone, and the metal springs simply wear down and are easier to push back.
The loose zone is all bad. It increases the distance you need to move the control stick to leave the dead zone, and the maximum values you can reach decrease. This makes your ability to DI slightly worse and also shortens dashes, wavedashes and aerial drift. To undo this process, you can re-thicken the plastic rails with epoxy resin or exchange the entire stickbox.
The metal spring losing its springiness is good to a certain degree. Very fresh stickboxes have a spring that is so tight that it’s hard to press it only slightly. However, past a certain point, the loose zone will exceed the dead zone, resulting in the cursor moving on its own and similar problems.

Like Xyzz wrote, it is impossible to tell how long it will take for you. If you want to speed it up, you can either lay the controller on the ground with the control stick held in any direction and leave it like that for some hours or open it up and modify or exchange the spring.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
past a certain point, the loose zone will exceed the dead zone, resulting in the cursor moving on its own and similar problems.
Behold - the cause of the untimely death of all of my controllers :D

(the latest one I started playing with (one of the white Japanese ones), seems to be rather resistant for now though. It just passed the "half-year of use"-milestone <3)
 

DRGN

Technowizard
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
2,179
Location
Sacramento, CA
Concerning L-cancels, it’s definitely a seven frame window. Questionable is whether it’s “7 frames before landing” or “6 frames before landing plus the first landing frame”. This depends whether button presses are counted as happening before a frame or on / after a frame. So far, I’ve always used the former, but I always thought it’s not clear at all which one is correct.

I understand the game to work like this:
1. Inputs are read.
2. Based on these inputs, frame 1 is calculated and displayed.
3. At the end of frame 1, inputs are read again.
4. Based on these inputs, frame 2 is calculated and displayed.
etc.

Whether these lines are grouped as (1→2), (3→4) [leading to the “6+1” definition] or as (2→3), (4→5) [leading to the “7” definition] is, in my opinion, personal taste. I like to use the latter because that’s how it feels like when using frame advance – the last calculated frame is displayed for a long time, and during this time you decide on your next input.
However, I’m absolutely willing to comply with popular convention so I don’t confuse people with my button input .gifs.

So, please tell me if you know which of these is the common way of looking at it! If you think that this is too obscure to be discussed here, feel free to answer to me in this thread.

I agree with the former interpretation here. Technically I would think the system is processing inputs and video simultaneously, just in different physical areas. So the inputs are earlier in the circuitry "pipeline" relative to what you're looking at. In a practical sense though I think it's definitely how Kadano explained it.

Though that doesn't seem to answer the question for l-canceling I think. Has it been tested?
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Though that doesn't seem to answer the question for l-canceling I think. Has it been tested?
When I wrote “it’s definitely a seven frame window” that was meant to imply that I did test it and confirmed that there are exactly seven frames that precede the landing on which a L∨R∨Z button press will cause an L-cancel.

As the original question was:
when L cancelling, do I input the L as soon as I touch the floor, or just before I touch the floor?
It still depends on how you define the relationship between inputs and frames whether pushing L∨R∨Z as soon as you touch the floor causes an L-cancel or not. As I understand it, it only does on the frame you would land, so inputting as soon as the character is flagged as grounded by the game will be one frame too late for an L-cancel.

OT: Which program(s) did you use to create your sig? It’s so beautiful!
 

DRGN

Technowizard
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
2,179
Location
Sacramento, CA
Oh ok, I see. It would make sense that (considering that the frame you're flagged as grounded is also the same frame the canceling animation starts) once the game starts displaying a canceling animation, it has already decided on whether it will be the full animation or not.

Thanks! I don't think anyone has complimented me on that before. :)

You may notice it's two images. The one on the right I did in Photoshop. The one on the left I made ages ago with Photoshop and ImageReady. I started with a 2D image and applied shape transformations on it to manually make each frame. Then I took them to ImageReady to make the gif. (I made the spinning insignia in my program an entirely different way though, thankfully lol, because the original method took forever.)

It's broken into two parts to greatly increase the quality of both. It allowed me to make the right side a PNG, so it looks way better than if it was a gif. Plus, then I could focus the gif's 256 color palette limit entirely on shades of blue, so that half too looks way better than if the whole sig was a gif. :)
 

SAUS

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
866
Location
Ottawa
Behold - the cause of the untimely death of all of my controllers :D

(the latest one I started playing with (one of the white Japanese ones), seems to be rather resistant for now though. It just passed the "half-year of use"-milestone <3)
I've only lost 1 controller to melee :p My first one. The R button kind of just caved in and died. It kind of worked, but it would often just light shield randomly and it felt really awkward to use. Most likely the spring just died.

My current controller is getting a little old now though. I find that the joy stick is very loose - not to the point where it does stuff on its own, but sometimes I find it hard to dash dance or I let go and press A for a neutral-air and then do a forward or down air or something.

On that note, any idea where I can get a new controller?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I've only lost 1 controller to melee :p My first one. The R button kind of just caved in and died. It kind of worked, but it would often just light shield randomly and it felt really awkward to use. Most likely the spring just died.

My current controller is getting a little old now though. I find that the joy stick is very loose - not to the point where it does stuff on its own, but sometimes I find it hard to dash dance or I let go and press A for a neutral-air and then do a forward or down air or something.

On that note, any idea where I can get a new controller?
The springs don't really die. You probably broke the small plastic piece on the back shell that holds up the buttons and springs. My friend did that to his and it also felt like it just "caved in".

You can get a new one on Ebay (just make sure it is OFFICIAL with a logo on the front; there's lots of knockoffs). You can also go to SmashBoard's Amazone store (idk why on Earth they made it so ****ing difficult to find if you dismiss the initial announcement; I had to Google SmashBoards and go to a cached page...). DRGN beat me to it. hahaha... FML.
 

SAUS

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
866
Location
Ottawa
OMG! Thanks guys. My GF is gonna get one for me for christmas :D so I'll just give her that link. Gonna be sick!
 
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