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[DRGN]

I ran across a random discrepancy that spawned some questions. I was looking through some old posts the other day and came across one regarding Bowser's forward smash:

[Bowser] uses his fully charged fsmash in HRC, which does about 32.5% damage, so it quite frequently does both 32% and 33% of damage depending on the invisible decimals before the hit.

In the SSBM Hitboxes (NTSC 1.0).xlsx document, it says Bowser's forward smash deals 24% (has two hitboxes. both deal this amount). Charged smash attacks do 1.4x damage, right? But 24 * 1.4 = 33.6
I thought it would be pretty strange for someone so familiar with HRC and working on perfect runs to be wrong about something like that. Though I still tested it myself today. Got 24% uncharged, and 32% fully charged. Hitting a second time (with dying to refresh the move) results in 65%, which follows with the hidden decimals. And on my first try I thought I saw 66% from two hits. The ****?? Ignoring that last bit for now, my questions are:

1) Can 1.4x really be correct? (I've seen 1.4x around the boards, plus it's on the ssb wiki.) If it's just an estimate, do we actually have a more accurate or exact value?

2) Where are the damage values in the SSBM Hitboxes doc from and how accurate are they? I notice there are no decimal values. Are they actually all [programmed as] whole numbers (decimals being introduced into the gameplay from other formulas such as charging), or are they rounded? And if rounded, how so: regular/up/down?

 

[Kadano]

1. I don’t know the fully charged damage multiplier, sorry. Marth’s fsmash in debug mode always increases damage by 27, 27, 28, 27, 27, 28, 27, 27, 28 and so on. Therefore, the damage multiplier must be either 1.33 (if the game rounds 0.99 to 1.00) or 1.34. I did enough repetitions to make sure it’s not 1.35 or more. Except if only the first digit is stored, but I don’t believe that.

2. I’m pretty sure Magus wrote somewhere that all hitboxes have integer damage values. I don’t know who made that great xlsx file, though. (Well … it does say that “Andrew” is the author, but I doubt that helps you much)

 

[Maliki]

What would be the competitive stages and ruleset for melee going to a tournament and would like to be ready.

 

[Bones0]

What would be the competitive stages and ruleset for melee going to a tournament and would like to be ready.

Go back to the Melee Discussion forum and there should be a thread pinned entitled "Official MBR Ruleset" or something like that.

 

[Maliki]

Thanks Bones

 

[DRGN]

1. I don’t know the fully charged damage multiplier, sorry. Marth’s fsmash in debug mode always increases damage by 27, 27, 28, 27, 27, 28, 27, 27, 28 and so on. Therefore, the damage multiplier must be either 1.33 (if the game rounds 0.99 to 1.00) or 1.34. I did enough repetitions to make sure it’s not 1.35 or more. Except if only the first digit is stored, but I don’t believe that.

2. I’m pretty sure Magus wrote somewhere that all hitboxes have integer damage values. I don’t know who made that great xlsx file, though. (Well … it does say that “Andrew” is the author, but I doubt that helps you much)

Thanks a lot for looking into it! How exactly did you come to the 1.33 and 1.34 values?

Though I just ran the Bowser forward smash example and got 24 * 1.34 = 32.16%. Doubling that is 64.32%, which is inconsistent with my repeated results of 65% from two fully charged, fresh forward smashes. Doesn't the 65% imply the value to be at least 32.5 / 24 = 1.35416666? Though even that's not high enough for the Marth example: Marth's uncharged, fresh fsmash (20%) multiplied by 1.35416666 would deal 27.083%. Hitting again with that would increase damage to 54.16666%, a damage increase of 27%, and hitting a third time would put their percent to 81.25%, an increase of 27% again, not 28. So at first glance it looks like even 1.35 would still be too low. UNLESS the actual hitbox damages are not integers, which would allow for more variation, for example, 32.5 / 24.5 = 1.3265. That would suck if non-integers were the case. This makes me want to test to see if consecutive uncharged, fresh Bowser forward smashes always increase the opponent's damage by 24% (I'd check right now if it wasn't already 4 am. lol XD). Estimating 1.37 works for both of our examples. But looking at it another way.... Are you saying that the 27, 27, 28 pattern repeats indefinitely? That would mean there is exactly 1/3 for the decimal. (27 + 1/3) / 20 = 1.3 + 1/15 = ~1.366666 (repeating)

I think that might be it! Though it still depends on whether the base damage of the fsmash is an integer, and also the accuracy would depend on how far the 27, 27, 28 pattern repeats for (but even just repeating 3, 4, or more times would mean this is pretty accurate).


Maybe if Magus pops in here and happens to see this he can confirm the integer thing.

Also I found out who made the doc. It was Toomai.

 

[Kadano]

How exactly did you come to the 1.33 and 1.34 values?

I don’t remember, I apparently made some mistakes, haha. I think I actually meant “between 1.36 and 1.37” and “not 1.38 or more” but confused those values because of the 1-out-of-3 repetitions (with 0.333… being between .33 and .34, which I assumed to also be the factor digits).

Anyway, when you look at the Pl**.dat files with Master Hand, the damage values are all integers. So we can rule that out.
I repeated fully charged tipper fsmashes until >300% (with damage rates all down to 0.1) and the 27, 27, 28 pattern still repeated.
It seems it can’t be anything else than 1,3666… . I’m still surprised and would also really like how Melee’s damage storing calculations work.

How did you find out it was Toomai? It makes sense though, his ssbwiki contributions are ridiculously great.

 

[Bones0]

12 years later, why still don't know how much damage attacks do.

Sakurai, why have you forsaken us?

 

[DRGN]

Anyway, when you look at the Pl**.dat files with Master Hand, the damage values are all integers. So we can rule that out.

And those files are supposed to be ripped right from the game, right? I've been kind of wondering if the xlxs might have been compiled from those data files.

I repeated fully charged tipper fsmashes until >300% (with damage rates all down to 0.1) and the 27, 27, 28 pattern still repeated.
It seems it can’t be anything else than 1,3666… . I’m still surprised and would also really like how Melee’s damage storing calculations work.

How did you find out it was Toomai? It makes sense though, his ssbwiki contributions are ridiculously great.

Cool. I don't know what made you choose Marth's fsmash, but that was really fortunate that it gave a pattern like that after being charged, lol. Pretty lucky!

Storing calculations?

I found it while digging for some other old info by chance. I had actually asked a while ago, but I couldn't remember where. And unfortunately Smashboard's search feature doesn't work anymore so I couldn't look for my old posts. (At least for me. Anyone else able to use it?) Anyway, SypherPheonix claimed it was Toomai.

 

[reepz]

HELLO. I am the newest of the new. I have never played smash before but i recently watch a documentary on youtube about the pro scene so i want to try it. I have a Wii and gamecube controllers, where can i find a reasonably priced game? Locally or somewhere online?
Please help i will love you forever. *.*

 

[KoopaTroopa895]

HELLO. I am the newest of the new. I have never played smash before but i recently watch a documentary on youtube about the pro scene so i want to try it. I have a Wii and gamecube controllers, where can i find a reasonably priced game? Locally or somewhere online?
Please help i will love you forever. *.*

Online is pretty much your best bet on the thing. I mean if you find it super cheap at a local store or something thats all for you. But big hits like melee is don't generally go down super low unfortunately. It is currently 33$ used plus tax on amazon. Homebrew is always an option but I wouldn't actively promote it. But yeah this game is about 12 years old now, so you don't have a whole lot of options.

On a side note welcome to smashboards. You should look up your region and see if they have a facebook group. Most of them do and those fb groups are one of the best ways to find people you can connect and play with.

 

[reepz]

Online is pretty much your best bet on the thing. I mean if you find it super cheap at a local store or something thats all for you. But big hits like melee is don't generally go down super low unfortunately. It is currently 33$ used plus tax on amazon. Homebrew is always an option but I wouldn't actively promote it. But yeah this game is about 12 years old now, so you don't have a whole lot of options.

On a side note welcome to smashboards. You should look up your region and see if they have a facebook group. Most of them do and those fb groups are one of the best ways to find people you can connect and play with.

Koopa can you link me to the 33$ amazon link? i have never seen anything that low before!

 

[Bones0]

Koopa can you link me to the 33$ amazon link? i have never seen anything that low before!

There's tons of discs available on Ebay. You can get a great deal or just find a "Buy It Now" if you don't mind spending $30.

 

[NefariousShyGuy]

Hey guys, is there any way at all to learn how to play Smash professionally in single player mode, or is it only possible with real friends?

I know the best way is to play with real people and learn by watching them and knowing your mistakes, but at the moment I don't have any friends with me.

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys, is there any way at all to learn how to play Smash professionally in single player mode, or is it only possible with real friends?

I know the best way is to play with real people and learn by watching them and knowing your mistakes, but at the moment I don't have any friends with me.

You can only practice tech skill and limited aspects of the game without other humans. Even if you don't have any friends to play against, you can go to tournaments and get all the practice you need.

 

[DRGN]

Not really, no. The most important benefit of playing against humans is in learning how humans play. If you play the computer you'll only learn how the computer plays, which is way different, even if you don't consider speed or advanced techniques. CPUs just don't have the ability to anticipate and learn their opponent (which necessarily happens between any two people, regardless of skill level); there's no change in thinking or behavior, and no psychological interaction or mindgames. This last part is pretty transparent in videos unless you already understand it.

In general there are a lot of tactics to learn from other players that you haven't thought of yourself. In playing against a computer you can at least practice your technical skill though, of just controlling your character quickly and accurately. Just don't get used to trying to trick the computer or wait for it to do things, those are habits that will be detrimental if used against human players.

Have you checked out the regional zones to see if there are other players or tournaments in your area? On the other hand, there's playing Melee online, which has been improving quite a bit and gaining popularity.

 

[NefariousShyGuy]

Thanks for the answers guys.

I guess I should go to tournaments to practice. Silly question, but are there any "just for fun tournaments"? Meaning tournaments where you don't have to pay a fee and there is no prize for winning 1st place?

 

[DRGN]

Not usually. Often there are multiple events, depending on the tournament of course. The main events being Singles and Doubles, and then sometimes tournaments will have side events, like a low price low tier tournament or something. And if they're also running regular Brawl there will probably be less side events because of time constraints. Although now a days I don't hear of low tier events much (I say so somewhat sadly), because there are lots of other new projects going on like Project M, Brawl+/Brawl-, etc. The side events are usually really cheap though, like a dollar or two, but not free. Totally depends on what the host wants to do though; can vary quite a bit from region to region. (You could always run your own. )

 

[Wave⁂]

What's the name of Falcon's down throw > off-stage knee combo against Fox and Falco at low percents?

 

[DRGN]

Dropzone..

 

[EK LaiN]

What would be the best way to get a perfect gamecube controller? I've looked on amazon and the cheapest for an new official nintendo controller is 35$ is that the best way to go or are there any other brands that are quality enough for Melee?

 

[Bones0]

What would be the best way to get a perfect gamecube controller? I've looked on amazon and the cheapest for an new official nintendo controller is 35$ is that the best way to go or are there any other brands that are quality enough for Melee?

You need an official Nintendo controller to play properly. You can get brand new ones for like $50 on Play Asia, or you can look on Ebay and Amazon and try and get one that way. There are also a decent number of smashers selling controllers themselves, so if you want to try the controller out in person before purchasing that is a good way to go. You also have the option of looking up people selling them on Craig's List or finding any friends you may have with controllers they no longer use and would be happy to give away or sell for real cheap.

 

[StoryTime]

What would be the best way to get a perfect gamecube controller? I've looked on amazon and the cheapest for an new official nintendo controller is 35$ is that the best way to go or are there any other brands that are quality enough for Melee?

You need an official Nintendo controller to play properly. You can get brand new ones for like $50 on Play Asia, or you can look on Ebay and Amazon and try and get one that way. There are also a decent number of smashers selling controllers themselves, so if you want to try the controller out in person before purchasing that is a good way to go. You also have the option of looking up people selling them on Craig's List or finding any friends you may have with controllers they no longer use and would be happy to give away or sell for real cheap.

But if you get the white controller from Play Asia, isn't the shipping on it really killer since it's shipped straight from Japan?

 

[Crawfish]

Do you have to press l/r till it clicks to l cancel, I could've sworn I did it without before but I suddenly couldn't yesterday, if you don't have to, is it better to do that than clicking it?
Sorry if I'm not making any sense.

 

[mecawe]

I just ordered this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Game-Shock-...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item43bad6e958

Can't wait to see if I threw 7$ by the window ^^

 

[Bones0]

Do you have to press l/r till it clicks to l cancel, I could've sworn I did it without before but I suddenly couldn't yesterday, if you don't have to, is it better to do that than clicking it?
Sorry if I'm not making any sense.

No, you only have to light press one of the triggers (or Z). Light pressing is preferable because hard pressing counts as a tech input and can make you miss techs (because the game prevents you from mashing the triggers to tech).

I just ordered this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Game-Shock-...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item43bad6e958

Can't wait to see if I threw 7$ by the window ^^

You don't have to wait. You definitely just wasted $7.

 

[mecawe]

No, you only have to light press one of the triggers (or Z). Light pressing is preferable because hard pressing counts as a tech input and can make you miss techs (because the game prevents you from mashing the triggers to tech).




You don't have to wait. You definitely just wasted $7.

Haha what makes you say that

 

[Bones0]

Haha what makes you say that

It's not an official Nintendo controller. The stick will be looser than a prostitute with a bowling pin fetish faster than you can finish 3 frames (of either Melee or bowling).

 

[mecawe]

lol... I'll make a review of it when I'll get it.

 

[Crawfish]

No, you only have to light press one of the triggers (or Z). Light pressing is preferable because hard pressing counts as a tech input and can make you miss techs (because the game prevents you from mashing the triggers to tech).

Thanks for the help :3

 

[Sheepolution]

Does stuff that's laying on the ground, like Link's arrows or Sheik's needles, have any effect I should know off? Or is it pure graphical?

 

[Ziodyne]

Does stuff that's laying on the ground, like Link's arrows or Sheik's needles, have any effect I should know off? Or is it pure graphical?

If you smack them with an attack, there's hitlag.

Try stomping needles with Falcon/Ganon and you'll see what I mean

 

[Sheepolution]

If you smack them with an attack, there's hitlag.

Try stomping needles with Falcon/Ganon and you'll see what I mean

Hmm okay. Thanks.

Questions #2: Does L-Canceling apply to aerial grab attacks ( (Y)Link's hookshot, Samus' beam)?

 

[Rarik]

Nope, you can't L-cancel Z-airs.

 

[Sheepolution]

Nope, you can't L-cancel Z-airs.

Another useless input prevented, thanks!

 

[menotyou135]

So here's the deal. I'm a Halo player, but Halo Reach/4 were the brawl of Halo so Halo is dead now (the primary Halo tournament is going back to Halo 3 this next event because Halo 4 is so bad).

Because of this, I want to get into smash. However, I dislike Brawl from what I have played. I used to play a lot of SSB64 when I was like 13, and I have never actually touched melee but I like the pace of it from the gameplays I have watched.

My room mate has a Wii that has the gamecube controller ports (I don't have a gamecube). I was wondering if I can just use that for now while I get the hang of Melee or if their is some issue with playing melee on the Wii. My friend says he is willing to play Melee with me because he used to play it a lot back in 07, but he doesn't have a gamecube either.

I only ask because if you play Halo 1 or 2 on the Xbox 360 it is emulated, which means that it runs poorly and lags a lot. I was wondering if Melee has the same problem when run on a Wii. If so, I can buy a gamecube, but I don't want to do that right now unless it actually effects the game.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bones0]

So here's the deal. I'm a Halo player, but Halo Reach/4 were the brawl of Halo so Halo is dead now (the primary Halo tournament is going back to Halo 3 this next event because Halo 4 is so bad).

Because of this, I want to get into smash. However, I dislike Brawl from what I have played. I used to play a lot of SSB64 when I was like 13, and I have never actually touched melee but I like the pace of it from the gameplays I have watched.

My room mate has a Wii that has the gamecube controller ports (I don't have a gamecube). I was wondering if I can just use that for now while I get the hang of Melee or if their is some issue with playing melee on the Wii. My friend says he is willing to play Melee with me because he used to play it a lot back in 07, but he doesn't have a gamecube either.

I only ask because if you play Halo 1 or 2 on the Xbox 360 it is emulated, which means that it runs poorly and lags a lot. I was wondering if Melee has the same problem when run on a Wii. If so, I can buy a gamecube, but I don't want to do that right now unless it actually effects the game.

Thanks in advance.

Melee runs just fine on the Wii.

 

[Kadano]

Melee runs just fine on the Wii.

Except for the lack of anti-aliasing. (At a tourney I went to last weekend, I exchanged a Wii with component cables for my Gamecube with component cables and the picture looked much smoother afterwards, so this is more than hearsay.)

 

[CaptainFabulous]

Maybe the wii wasn't in progressive scan mode?

 

[.K1]

when L cancelling, do I input the L as soon as I touch the floor, or just before I touch the floor? The reason I ask is because I was practicing SH Drill > Shine > SH Drill > Shine > etc (for tech skill practice), as well as nair > shine > stuff, and it felt like I could input the L cancel just before I hit the ground and It would work. Idk, maybe its just my imagination.

Also, what are the the things that I CAN practice alone? I know various things regarding tech skill, but is there any way I can practice combos I would actually use in game? Im assuming I cant really do that though because DI affects combo options a lot......but it doesnt hurt to ask I guess.

Thanks !