Xyzz
Smash Champion
L-cancelling has a six frame window, indeed.
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Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!
- Thread starter DtJ Jungle
- Start date
Sheepolution
Smash Rookie
http://www.ssbwiki.com/L-canceling
L-cancelling is done by pressing a shield button 11 frames before landing during an aerial attack in Smash 64 (the grab button also works because of its unique properties), or by pressing the shield button 6 frames before or on the first frame of landing in Melee.
L-cancelling is done by pressing a shield button 11 frames before landing during an aerial attack in Smash 64 (the grab button also works because of its unique properties), or by pressing the shield button 6 frames before or on the first frame of landing in Melee.
Don't forget to play against CPU's once in a while. I trained techs for 3 days straight, then I played like **** against level 9s because I had get used at using the techs in combat.
another question:
Do different characters have a different amount of prejump frames? The reason I ask is because when wavedashing with fox / marth, it feels very easy to do it continuously, smoothly, and quickly.......as opposed to trying to wavedash with Roy, Zelda, or Ganon. It feels like they "stick" more I guess. When I try to wavedash quickly with those characters I get wayyyyyyy more executional errors (full jumps mostly). Just curious if this is something real, or if its just in my head.
Do different characters have a different amount of prejump frames? The reason I ask is because when wavedashing with fox / marth, it feels very easy to do it continuously, smoothly, and quickly.......as opposed to trying to wavedash with Roy, Zelda, or Ganon. It feels like they "stick" more I guess. When I try to wavedash quickly with those characters I get wayyyyyyy more executional errors (full jumps mostly). Just curious if this is something real, or if its just in my head.
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's not in your head. Go into Training Mode and with 1/4th speed, you can see a distinct difference in jump speeds. The frames before your character leaves the ground are considered "jumpsquat". Some characters have as little as 3 frames while others have many more, with Bowser having something like 9 that makes WDing super weird with him. You can find the exact values in Mew2King's "SSBM Statistics" thread. Just scroll down to the part about jump speeds and he lists every characters' stats. He includes the first airborne frame in his values, so just subtract 1 to find out how many frames of jumpsquat a character has. For instance, Marth is airborne frame 5 which means he has 4 frames of jumpsquat. Fox, ICs, Samus, Sheik, Pichu, etc. have 3 frames of jumpsquat which is why their WDs seem less sticky than Marth's. Falco has 5 frames of jumpsquat so his will seem slightly more sticky.
Kadano
Magical Express
Concerning L-cancels, it’s definitely a seven frame window. Questionable is whether it’s “7 frames before landing” or “6 frames before landing plus the first landing frame”. This depends whether button presses are counted as happening before a frame or on / after a frame. So far, I’ve always used the former, but I always thought it’s not clear at all which one is correct.
I understand the game to work like this:
1. Inputs are read.
2. Based on these inputs, frame 1 is calculated and displayed.
3. At the end of frame 1, inputs are read again.
4. Based on these inputs, frame 2 is calculated and displayed.
etc.
Whether these lines are grouped as (1→2), (3→4) [leading to the “6+1” definition] or as (2→3), (4→5) [leading to the “7” definition] is, in my opinion, personal taste. I like to use the latter because that’s how it feels like when using frame advance – the last calculated frame is displayed for a long time, and during this time you decide on your next input.
However, I’m absolutely willing to comply with popular convention so I don’t confuse people with my button input .gifs.
So, please tell me if you know which of these is the common way of looking at it! If you think that this is too obscure to be discussed here, feel free to answer to me in this thread.
I understand the game to work like this:
1. Inputs are read.
2. Based on these inputs, frame 1 is calculated and displayed.
3. At the end of frame 1, inputs are read again.
4. Based on these inputs, frame 2 is calculated and displayed.
etc.
Whether these lines are grouped as (1→2), (3→4) [leading to the “6+1” definition] or as (2→3), (4→5) [leading to the “7” definition] is, in my opinion, personal taste. I like to use the latter because that’s how it feels like when using frame advance – the last calculated frame is displayed for a long time, and during this time you decide on your next input.
However, I’m absolutely willing to comply with popular convention so I don’t confuse people with my button input .gifs.
So, please tell me if you know which of these is the common way of looking at it! If you think that this is too obscure to be discussed here, feel free to answer to me in this thread.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think the idea of inputs being read in between frames is pretty intuitive. The question seems to be whether to consider that moment as "at the end of the first frame/before the second frame" or "at the beginning of the second frame". To me, viewing each input as having taken place the frame before it is seen is easier to work with in my head. If you could play the game in super slow motion such that you could react to individual frames, it would certainly feel like your input is being executed in the next frame, not the current one which may have already been displayed for 50% of its length of time. So like, if we had 5 second frames, I may do an input 2.5 seconds after the frame changes which would mean it's going to be another 2.5 seconds before it's displayed. The fact that the game doesn't read the input until the 5 second mark is irrelevant because that doesn't correlate with my input, and the only input/output we can really monitor are our own button presses and what we see on the screen.
Swampler
Smash Rookie
Quick question. Is it possible to DI the same direction as a moves trajectory? For example, If I were to DI Fox's upsmash straight up, would it have any effect?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
If you don't count the negligible ASDI input, nope.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I don't think Fox's usmash sends you at exactly 90 degrees upwards, but no, DIing parallel to a move's default trajectory (either into it or against it) has no effect outside of SDI or ASDI (which don't apply to throws, remember).
Kadano
Magical Express
It actually does make a small difference in some cases, though it works differently than you might have expected.
Fox’s upsmash is a great example. Its clean hitbox has a knockback angle of 80°. Every angle between ~73° and ~107° is treated as 90° by the game. Thus, holding the control stick either straight upwards or in the knockback direction causes you to die slightly earlier.
Fox’s upsmash is a great example. Its clean hitbox has a knockback angle of 80°. Every angle between ~73° and ~107° is treated as 90° by the game. Thus, holding the control stick either straight upwards or in the knockback direction causes you to die slightly earlier.
milligraham
Smash Apprentice
I'm trying to make my wavedashing more consistent. I end up doing just a full jump a lot more often than I would like (especially with Falco.) Anyone got any tips that might help me press R at the right time more often?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
"Practice it more" is usually the only advice.
You might try doing so with a metronome (google for a online one, if you don't happen to be a musician and have one of those in your room
), but wavedashing is one of those things that really just need to be spammed and spammed and spammed until your fingers move without any conscious thought.
You might try doing so with a metronome (google for a online one, if you don't happen to be a musician and have one of those in your room
), but wavedashing is one of those things that really just need to be spammed and spammed and spammed until your fingers move without any conscious thought.StarWarsKing
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2013
- Messages
- 3
Hey guys, I'm new to Smashboards and the main reason I signed up was because I needed some help. Well a lot of help. I go to Riverside City College in Southern California. I'm the Public relations officer for the video game club, Riverside Community Gaming. We are holding a fighting game tournament to fundraising for our club, due to it being our first semester as an official club, and one of our 3 games is Super Smash Bros Melee. I know there is a competitive scene. I know there are banned stages and then stage bans during match process, i don't understand how they work though. I also don't know if there are characters with moves they aren't allowed to use or characters that can't be played on certain stages. Well i don't know most of the workings for a tournament and from the total response of the club, we want to have the same ruleset and setup as evo had. Can anyone help a guy out? Thanks in advance for the time to read this.
TL;DR Help, I don't know **** about setting up a Melee tourney.
TL;DR Help, I don't know **** about setting up a Melee tourney.
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
StarWarsKing
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2013
- Messages
- 3
Omg... this is amazing... thank you so much! <3
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
I live to serve
Bones0
Smash Legend
If your tourney is open to the general public post in the regional forums and on SoCal FaceBook groups to see if anyone is interested in attending. Having experienced players there can give you some help figuring out how to run the tournament, you can earn some extra funds for your club, and playing good players for the first time is an awesome experience in its own right.
mecawe
Smash Cadet
So here is my review for my cheap controller bought on ebay:
CRAP!!!
-The joystick is completely random... I move a little and it start to run
-The short hop sometimes just doesn't jump
-L and R really difficult to press
-Different timing for wavedashing
-etc...
CRAP!!!
-The joystick is completely random... I move a little and it start to run
-The short hop sometimes just doesn't jump
-L and R really difficult to press
-Different timing for wavedashing
-etc...
StarWarsKing
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2013
- Messages
- 3
<3
Do you have any links to any of the facebook groups and regional forums? It would be great to just be part of the community even after our event is over.
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
Most people will tell you that anything other than an official gamecube controller is unacceptable when playing melee
Bones0
Smash Legend
Told ya. Now go buy an official one from SmashBoard's Amazon store.
If you go to SmashBoards' homepage you will see a regional section. You can also post your tournament in Tournament Listings to people in your area looking for tournaments will find yours automatically. The list of regional FaceBook groups are in a pinned thread in the Melee Discussion forums (so click "Melee Discussion" at the top of this page and it will be one of the top threads).
so...when DI'ing, do I use both sticks? do I hit them in the same direction, or do I have them in slightly different directions? Ive gotten some mixed input regarding this. Also, when it comes to smash DI, you cant really react to a move and smash DI it, right? I think I read that you can only smash DI within 3 frames after getting hit....or something.
Kadano
Magical Express
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...-teching-and-crouch-cancelling-updated.60218/
Reacting to attacks like shine is not possible, but for slow attacks like smashes it’s pretty easy.
Thanks. Ive got another question however. Im curious if there is a way to determine how much hitstun any given move deals (at 0%)? Is this listed somewhere, or would someone have use an AR and check frame by frame?
Edit: Also, blockstun. How do I know how much advantage / disadvantage I am when I do X move against a shielded opponent? I thought I read somewhere that Falcon can be between -2 and +2 on block after a sweetspotted knee (on shield). How did they come up with those numbers?
Edit: Also, blockstun. How do I know how much advantage / disadvantage I am when I do X move against a shielded opponent? I thought I read somewhere that Falcon can be between -2 and +2 on block after a sweetspotted knee (on shield). How did they come up with those numbers?
AXE 09
Smash Master
Can someone please explain to me how to do this sound glitch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciRlNQjGD9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciRlNQjGD9c
mecawe
Smash Cadet
L-canceling
Hey,
I just want to ask if the best method to L-cancel is 6 frames before hitting the ground or exactly when hitting the ground? Also, my shield pops up very often when I L-cancel... Is there a way to remove that effect? Thanks
Hey,
I just want to ask if the best method to L-cancel is 6 frames before hitting the ground or exactly when hitting the ground? Also, my shield pops up very often when I L-cancel... Is there a way to remove that effect? Thanks
Technically the best method is to L-cancel as early as possible (6 frames before hitting the ground) so that the 40 frame tech-fail window you just caused goes away sooner, however in practice just hit it any time within that window of 6 frames before to just as you hit the ground. The shield issue is fixed by letting go of the shield button faster so that it's not still being pressed when your landing lag ends, which is another reason why l-cancelling earlier is technically better as you have more time to let go of the shield button, but seriously, just L-cancel anytime in the window and let go of your shield button ASAP.
mecawe
Smash Cadet
Thanks a lot, I have noticed that with fox as soon as I'm coming down I can press L anytime between that moment and hitting the ground and the L-cancel works just fine. The shield doesn't come up anymore. Also, I think that Lcancel is not needed when I only do the short hop because the lag time seems to be the same. Is this exact? Thanks
When you say only do short hop do you mean you're literally only short hopping? Cause then yes you wouldn't need to L-cancel as only Aerial moves can be L-cancelled, however Aerials you will need to L-cancel the majority of the time except for a few very specific timings where the aerial auto-cancels.
mecawe
Smash Cadet
Yes I was litterally only short hopping. Thank you
Bones0
Smash Legend
You only need to input a light press on one of the triggers (or press Z) in order to L-cancel. Light pressing also helps with the issue of the shield appearing after you land because it's easier to release it.
The best way to L-cancel is to light press a trigger (or press Z) as late as possible before hitting the ground, assuming you will miss your attack. A lot of people assume they will hit their opponent, so they adjust their timing to account for the hitlag. If you assume you won't hit the opponent and L-cancel as late as possible, you essentially cover both scenarios (hitting or missing, hitlag or no hitlag). If you assume you will hit your opponent and miss, your L-cancel will be too late and you will whiff a laggy attack. If you don't expect your aerial to hit your opponent and L-cancel as early as possible, if you do hit them the additional frames added by hitlag will make your L-cancel input too early.
Although I have played melee/brawl somewhat casually, I am fairly new to playing smash at competitive level. Currently, I have been playing as peach and I have seen myself improve a lot sense visiting this forum and practicing. My focus for peach right now is learning how wavedash and dash dance consistently and effectively. My only question regarding this is I am wondering if there is/will be some kind of trial video for peach, like the ones that were recently made for marth and falco? Once I am able to perform the more advanced techniques easily I need to learn how to get the most out of them and learning to combo. I watch peach videos pretty often, but I can't catch every little trick that is used by the really good peach players.
I am also going to start practice mechanics on some of the other characters. I want to explain my reasoning behind this because I find that most people suggest to stick to only one character (and maybe a fun character). My main reason is that I don't feel I have an understanding of all the characters in the game because I have never played seriously until coming to college and starting to play with a bunch of other guys. Granted I am usually focused on learning how characters move and use their abilities, when I play someone besides peach I am very capable of losing to people that have never even played D: . I also feel that if I can learn how to play other characters decently I will improved on my ability to perform advanced techniques, increase my knowledge of the game, and get a better control over my main or any other character I decide to play. I plan to learn different characters while playing against people who won't be able to challenge me when using peach, and then using peach against the players that are looking to get better like me.
The purpose of giving that background is because I am curious what other people think of my reasoning. If anything, I will learn advanced techniques that are different from what peach uses, like how peach uses a lot of float-canceling and less L-canceling.
The main characters I am interested in learning right now are marth, falco and captain falcon. None of these are really played among the people that I play against, so learning them will give me more knowledge about them. I also think that they each have certain mechanics that are very important to learn. Marth seems to have a large focus on spacing and hitting with specific hitboxes (sword tip). Falco requires a lot of movement, especially involving shuffling. Captain falcon I find is a challenge for me, one that I want to overcome, because moves in such an odd way, and he seems to have a focus on combos and punishing his opponent. I may be wrong on these concepts, so feel free to point out what I am wrong about. Also, I would like suggestions for other characters that will help me learn the game as a whole.
Lastly, I am curious what buttons I should be using when performing aerials, although this may just be seen as preference. Since I play peach I usually use A + control stick because I stay floating using Y, so I can go into a float-cancel. When I play other characters I usually try to use the C-stick to do aerials. My problem is that I think that moving my thumb to the C-stick may be to slow when trying to shuffle? Is it easier to use the A + control stick, or would it be a good idea to get used to shuffling/most aerials using the C-stick so I have more control over what aerial attacks I am performing?
Hopefully this wasn't too long I felt obligating to explain and ask a bunch of questions because this is my first time here
I am also going to start practice mechanics on some of the other characters. I want to explain my reasoning behind this because I find that most people suggest to stick to only one character (and maybe a fun character). My main reason is that I don't feel I have an understanding of all the characters in the game because I have never played seriously until coming to college and starting to play with a bunch of other guys. Granted I am usually focused on learning how characters move and use their abilities, when I play someone besides peach I am very capable of losing to people that have never even played D: . I also feel that if I can learn how to play other characters decently I will improved on my ability to perform advanced techniques, increase my knowledge of the game, and get a better control over my main or any other character I decide to play. I plan to learn different characters while playing against people who won't be able to challenge me when using peach, and then using peach against the players that are looking to get better like me.
The purpose of giving that background is because I am curious what other people think of my reasoning. If anything, I will learn advanced techniques that are different from what peach uses, like how peach uses a lot of float-canceling and less L-canceling.
The main characters I am interested in learning right now are marth, falco and captain falcon. None of these are really played among the people that I play against, so learning them will give me more knowledge about them. I also think that they each have certain mechanics that are very important to learn. Marth seems to have a large focus on spacing and hitting with specific hitboxes (sword tip). Falco requires a lot of movement, especially involving shuffling. Captain falcon I find is a challenge for me, one that I want to overcome, because moves in such an odd way, and he seems to have a focus on combos and punishing his opponent. I may be wrong on these concepts, so feel free to point out what I am wrong about. Also, I would like suggestions for other characters that will help me learn the game as a whole.
Lastly, I am curious what buttons I should be using when performing aerials, although this may just be seen as preference. Since I play peach I usually use A + control stick because I stay floating using Y, so I can go into a float-cancel. When I play other characters I usually try to use the C-stick to do aerials. My problem is that I think that moving my thumb to the C-stick may be to slow when trying to shuffle? Is it easier to use the A + control stick, or would it be a good idea to get used to shuffling/most aerials using the C-stick so I have more control over what aerial attacks I am performing?
Hopefully this wasn't too long I felt obligating to explain and ask a bunch of questions because this is my first time here
Bones0
Smash Legend
Ah, it appears I have a fellow rambler joining us. lol Welcome.
1. There are no Peach trials, and I'm not sure if they have any in store for the future, but in the mean time you can head to the Peach forums and the main discussion thread should (hopefully) be filled with a lot of discussion about different techniques and tactics. You can ask them for specific stuff you see in videos or ask for clarification on the purpose/execution of other things.
2. I really wouldn't advise trying to pick up more than 2 characters. While your approach of wanting to learn as much about the game is admirable (and one I used to share), you will quickly be in over your head and end up with a bunch of awful characters instead of a couple of polished ones. I have replaced playing a lot of my random secondaries with studying matches online. Now, instead of dedicating tons of hours practicing each character's tech skill, not to mention wasting valuable human-playing time with non-mains, I simply take the time to watch the top players of other characters. So I will sit down and watch a Hax video even though I main Falco because I can study what he's doing instead of having to learn it myself.
It's obviously not as effective as becoming proficient with the character yourself, but you can pick up extra characters MUCH more easily once you've learned a single character really well. Trying to play multiple characters while you are still inexperienced will just make it impossible to feel coordinated with any of the characters. Watching videos allows me to learn other characters' strategies without having to learn how to physically execute them with subtle details that are largely irrelevant when it comes to combating that character. For instance, Falcons spend tons of time practicing their different tech chase setups, so instead of me grinding out those setups on my own for hours and hours, I can watch them and get the gist of what they do. Knowing exactly how they time certain moves or space WDs after throwing isn't worth the time it would take to learn.
If you want to train up your Peach, Falco, and Falcon, I think that's fine, but if you notice yourself favoring 2 over a third, I would definitely recommend dropping the third one. Especially since it sounds like you have a good variety of practice partners, there's not a whole reason to be changing characters constantly once you start practicing. A big reason I played secondaries for as long as I did was because I only got to play against a single player who almost always used Marth so Falco vs. Marth got really stale after a while, and my style would stagnate if I didn't mix it up with other characters. If you have 3 practice partners with, let's say, 5 unique characters, that's 10 matchups you can learn (5 with each of your two mains). Adding another character jumps that up to 15 matchups and getting sufficient practice in all of them will be extremely difficult. Ultimately, of course, it's up to you.
3. As far as which inputs to use, that'd be a perfect thing to ask on the Peach forums. I can't FC to save my life so idk whether most Peach players use A or C-stick (or maybe even Z when they don't have turnips).
john!
Smash Hero
hey blother:
here's a link to the main peach discussion thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz-stuff-about-peach-tactical-discussion.242179/
try searching the thread before asking a question, because it's probably been covered before earlier in the thread
although i use C-stick for aerials on almost every other character, i think most peach players (myself included) hold jump while floating and press the A button with the same thumb when they want to do an aerial while floating. C-stick is useful for throwing turnips and doing delicious, sexy d-smashes.
if you want to focus on peach exclusively, then work on wavedashing, dashdancing, and doing fast FC aerials at ground level. also try to incorporate crouch-canceling (CC dsmash wrecks most low level players)
here's a link to the main peach discussion thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz-stuff-about-peach-tactical-discussion.242179/
try searching the thread before asking a question, because it's probably been covered before earlier in the thread
although i use C-stick for aerials on almost every other character, i think most peach players (myself included) hold jump while floating and press the A button with the same thumb when they want to do an aerial while floating. C-stick is useful for throwing turnips and doing delicious, sexy d-smashes.
if you want to focus on peach exclusively, then work on wavedashing, dashdancing, and doing fast FC aerials at ground level. also try to incorporate crouch-canceling (CC dsmash wrecks most low level players)
Haha I don't think I ramble... all of the time
I think I am going to end up sticking with marth and peach for now. Maybe I will play some falco if those two get stale for any reason.
I have actually looked at most of the peach boards before I decided to make an account. It doesn't seem like the peach forums hold much information. There is some data and basic info, but nothing too specific on using combos or MUs. Is peach just not have a lot of depth? I watch armada and that doesn't seem to be the case (he wasn't the reason I started playing peach, but he is who I watch a lot to learn), unless he is the one that added the depth to playing peach.
I think I am going to end up sticking with marth and peach for now. Maybe I will play some falco if those two get stale for any reason.
I have actually looked at most of the peach boards before I decided to make an account. It doesn't seem like the peach forums hold much information. There is some data and basic info, but nothing too specific on using combos or MUs. Is peach just not have a lot of depth? I watch armada and that doesn't seem to be the case (he wasn't the reason I started playing peach, but he is who I watch a lot to learn), unless he is the one that added the depth to playing peach.
john!
Smash Hero
it's there, you just gotta dig (or search the thread) like any other character board
videos are better than text for learning a character's overall patterns and style of play, but if you really want to dig into the subtleties of a technique or matchup, then reading discussion threads might be better
videos are better than text for learning a character's overall patterns and style of play, but if you really want to dig into the subtleties of a technique or matchup, then reading discussion threads might be better
Bones0
Smash Legend
Whether you get knocked down or not is dependent on how much KB a move deals. How much KB a move deals is based on the move, the weight of the character being hit, and the percentage of the character being hit. Crouch cancelling reduces KB and stun (not sure what the details are; I think it reduces KB by 1/3rd, but I could be wrong).
mecawe
Smash Cadet
Is there a way to press Y to short hop? I'm practicing short hopping for 3 weeks now... Sometimes i get 90%, sometimes 50%, and I can't better that. I just can't press always that fast. Getting frustrated...