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[Xyzz]

Your reasoning with the question from above is spot on, good job. Jumping backwards allows most (if not all) characters to pull back further than what's possible with neutral jumping and then using aerial control to move away. And well, Sheik happens to do a backflip as her backwards jump (:
In case it helps: you get a backwards jump if you hold back during the jumpsquat frames, so you need to hold backwards after hitting the jump button, but before leaving the ground.

Regarding your 2nd point (I don't know **** about the tether grab recoveries, I am happy knowing that "A" will pull me up, if I do end up playing those characters for fun )
One way would be to show them that you don't need those niche things to win. Sure, sometimes it's really hard to let go of the ingrained little things, but if you're that far ahead of them you can do really ******** things which will not make you try to actually play the game. If you can four stock them with Falcon, you can probably just pick some random character with an okay fsmash (e.g. Falco or Mario) and beat them doing else. No need to even WD or anything, dash-crouch-fsmash is best! :D
Regarding bad habits or "that move is OP, i can't beat it": Try pointing out what they are doing wrong, and what they should be doing. Some things are really good though and can only be really challenged using advanced techniques... e.g. I wouldn't know how to get past Marth's fsmash either, if I was unable to consistently bait it out with tricky movement or shield -> WD OOS -> punish. Obviously those are things they SHOULD definitely learn though (and if they see how important they are, maybe that's motivating).
SH, FF, L-cancels are definitely among the things that one should learn quickly. I would add "learn to move exactly where you want to go" and wavedashing (it's really good for a lot of things, and definitely a necessary basic, and part of moving exactly where one wants to go :D). Learning unnecessary technical things is fun, too, though. But if they are able to moonwalk, they should be able to pick up things like SHFFLs without too much work, I guess. Hell, I never bothered to learn moonwalks till this very day (:

 

[SAUS]

Thanks for the tips. The main people I am helping teach all play falcon or marth (mostly) so I think SHFFLs are the most important things to learn first (and all the things tied into a SHFFL, not just SHFFLs against no opponent). They are getting better at it but it is obvious they are trying to do it from muscle memory and not as much from fully controlling their character, so their spacing is always terrible. I feel like moonwalking is a little bit too much out there in terms of usefulness. It's fun, but don't practice it when you don't even dash dance in matches yet >.<

They also seem to be fickle about their mains. One falcon player keeps switching to ganon "because he's easier" which is okay, but then he still wants to play falcon a lot. Then he sees me play my derpy fox (I'm not good with fox, I just spam moves and run around a lot) and then wants to play fox. Then he jumps over to Dr. Mario and then decides to give falco a shot. I think the other players have more-or-less chosen mains, so it's more just the one guy. Maybe I should just tell him in a nice way like "you'll probably learn a lot faster if you just stick with 1 character for now". Should be okay.

I try to point out their mistakes but they make a lot lol. I like your idea of just killing them with f-smash. I think it will probably drive the point across the best. I tend to play very technical, so I think maybe that probably catches their attention too much when I could show them that their fundamentals are just too weak to try to compete with me, and that they have a long way to go.

I think they want to be doing all the flashy combos like Falcon's super deadly knee combos against bad DI or the Ken combo with marth. Should I just let them keep trying them or should I try to get them to stop? Or maybe I should just forward smash them to death with mario and they'll realise.

 

[Xyzz]

I like forward smashing people to death with Mario. It looks just as dumb as it is and probably will get them thinking if they haven't gotten to the point of realizing that AT things are nice tools and everything, but really depend on HOW you're using them.

Regarding flashy combos: Combos shouldn't be flashy, combos should lead to a dead opponent as consistently as you can manage... well, if I recommended against learning combos I'd be quite the hypocrite (most of my training is combo practice, if I bother at all nowadays, and they're probably the strongest part of my gameplay), but they need to be effective not good looking (although that often goes hand in hand).

Regarding the guy not knowing whom to main: Well, you can definitely point it out, that it's a lot faster to get good using mostly one character so you can stop forgetting half the things you learned in a session, because they don't get repetition. But ultimately SSBM is a videogame and a fun past-time activity, so just enjoying the game is the most important thing, and I personally rather like playing tons of characters as well...
But I really like winning, so yeah... :D

 

[SAUS]

Lol ya. That's why I haven't really told him that yet. I just feel like it may be a little harsh, but if he wants to get better (at winning), I think it is his best option.

The combos aren't meant to be flashy, combos in melee just look cool :D It's not like I'm doing wall-jump knees to end my combos, it's just that up-air into knee looks cool by itself - especially when you're off the stage doing the knee. They just don't know when they should and shouldn't do it, and even when they should, they do it wrong lol (essentially miss the last hit and then are in a spot where they will get edge-guarded).

I really gotta do the derpy mario thing. It'll definitely open their eyes.

Also, ya, teaching them to aim with their SHFFLs. I think that is important too.

 

[Xyzz]

Dunno, back then the dude who introduced me to melee also said "you'd probably do best if you just pick a character and then stay with that for a while, if you want to get good" and I was "yeah, would've guessed so as well, the characters look fairly different from each other"... Ended up playing some characters then staying with Samus until I remembered to up-b at least some of the time, had a look at all of the characters and ended up playing practically nothing but Peach for a year or so :D

 

[WWGenesis]

You guys are the best. The explanation is much appreciated (Think I was confusing backflips with jumping neutral but then moving back during the animation).

How I make people realize that they are being dumb is either to gimp them with whatever, or just pick marth only do dash -> crouch cancel f-smash for kill ;D

 

[.K1]

Plain and simple either the players will listen to you and learn what they can and get better, or they're going to be lazy and not put in the time to learn X mechanic and keep making excuses. Nothing you can do about it.

Ssbm is by far the most "honest" fighing game I have ever played / seen / heard of. There's no bull**** comeback mechanic, there's no herp derp reversal that can deal a ******** amount of damage because of an ultra....no vortex, nothing.

Either you put in the work, or you get blown up. Its no ones fault but the person playing.

 

[Bones0]

If you are holding back on the last frame of jumpsquat, your character will backflip. If you simply drifted backwards, you didn't hold back until after you were airborne.

Whoops, didn't see that the question was already answered.

 

[WWGenesis]

Thanks in any case : P

Uh another question - How does one do a perfect wavedash backwards? My control stick is either at about a 190 or 350 degree angle for when I want to perfect wavedash, and I get the wavedash. Only problem is that my character faces the direction at which I'm perfectly wavedashing after performing it (that and it doesn't work when I go for wavedash from the ledge) - Wondering if doing a backwards perfect wavedash is also possible.

Thanks again!

 

[dRevan64]

Thanks in any case : P

Uh another question - How does one do a perfect wavedash backwards? My control stick is either at about a 190 or 350 degree angle for when I want to perfect wavedash, and I get the wavedash. Only problem is that my character faces the direction at which I'm perfectly wavedashing after performing it (that and it doesn't work when I go for wavedash from the ledge) - Wondering if doing a backwards perfect wavedash is also possible.

Thanks again!

Remember that when your wavedash input is done is AFTER you jump. Because you're jumping anyway, if you input the direction after you're entering the air and airdodge, there's no way in which you could turn around. So if you're not able to perfect WD back, you're probably hitting the directional input too early and turning, or holding it too long and turning at the end of the WD.

 

[WWGenesis]

Remember that when your wavedash input is done is AFTER you jump. Because you're jumping anyway, if you input the direction after you're entering the air and airdodge, there's no way in which you could turn around. So if you're not able to perfect WD back, you're probably hitting the directional input too early and turning, or holding it too long and turning at the end of the WD.

I believe that I am buffering the perfect wavedash to come out before hitting jump (somehow learned this from tinkering and playing around) - I otherwise get it with regular inputs when I don't buffer it.

Guess I gotta learn how to perfect wavedash back the normal way, which kind of sucks since buffering is so consistent for hitting perfect wavedashes in the direction you're facing. Thanks!

 

[polskaOscar]

How did m2k initially get on such a high level when he didn't practice against people? Did he just play Training mode? To add to this does anyone have tips for practicing without a partner?

 

[SAUS]

How did m2k initially get on such a high level when he didn't practice against people? Did he just play Training mode? To add to this does anyone have tips for practicing without a partner?

He researched basically everything. I think he still had enough play against people to get better. I don't actually know 100% though.

Practicing without a partner. Usually I just run around doing wavelands and stuff and just overall being fast. If there is something that you don't do very well, practice it (like practicing waveshining or something). Whatever you do, don't fight against the AI like they are a person.

 

[Xyzz]

I think in the episode of the documentary that's dedicated to him it's mentioned, that M2k was initially rather bad against people because he wasn't used to opponents trying to adapt in the middle of the match (:

 

[WWGenesis]

Wondering - How did people get accustomed to getting into the habit to DI the correct way / crouch cancel so well?

Also, I'm wonder in regards to crouch cancel's utility vs shielding's utility. Crouch Canceling obvious allows you to punish better, but causes you to take damage in return. When do I know whether to crouch cancel a move compared to shielding one? (Having problems discerning the cost and benefits of using it in specific situations).

 

[SAUS]

Wondering - How did people get accustomed to getting into the habit to DI the correct way / crouch cancel so well?

Also, I'm wonder in regards to crouch cancel's utility vs shielding's utility. Crouch Canceling obvious allows you to punish better, but causes you to take damage in return. When do I know whether to crouch cancel a move compared to shielding one? (Having problems discerning the cost and benefits of using it in specific situations).

DI just takes time to learn. Just keep it in your mind when you play that every time you get hit, you could have made the trajectory different/possible better. Did you DI the correct way? It usually just boils down to "he's comboing me, I gotta get away" (DI to move further from attacks to avoid getting hit more) and "this move could kill me, so try not to die" (DI to 'resist' the attack).

I started by using survival DI (the second one from how I described it above) for everything and then realised there were many times where it was an extremely bad idea lol so I started thinking about it more. For some throws, you will figure out which way to DI and at what % to minimize damage from the following moves.

Sometimes you NEED to crouch cancel to get the punish you need. For example, let's say marth is using his up-b and you are playing falco. If you shield, then you can't follow up with anything. If you crouch cancel, you get the down-smash and most likely the kill. Similarly, some characters have somewhat weak out-of-shield options, so crouch cancelling allows them to do something while on the defensive (like link and samus for instance). Sometimes it is also a good bait tactic since you are not shielding. Overall, I don't crouch cancel except when it is necessary to do a punish that I need to do at that time.

 

[mecawe]

Does someone know what "gimp" stands for? Thanks

 

[Xyzz]

A gimp is the act of taking your opponents stock at a percent where it's usually not expected for him to die yet. Usually happening by getting them offstage and not letting them back on. Good examples would be a fox shine spiking somebody or Sheik's backthrow is also notorious for setting up gimps.

 

[dRevan64]

Gimping is everything that happens to carroll in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww5weCNP7Qc

 

[SAUS]

Does someone know what "gimp" stands for? Thanks

It doesn't stand for anything if that's what you mean. It's basically when you kill someone while they are at very low damage (not really expected to die yet). It happens usually when someone falls off the edge at low damage (by accident or a throw quite commonly) and then their opponent prevents them from returning to the stage.

 

[James "Taylor" Stretch]

Hi everyone, I'm Taylor. I'm new to smashboards and I have a general question. My friend and I might be getting together tomorrow to play melee together and last time we played he was much better than me. He was using shiek. I'm wondering if there's any easy answers some of you could give to, "How can I get the edge on this guy?" Simple things, like I noticed that the gamecube controllers have different locations (from the 64 version) of A and B- so I will have to get used to that. I just remember there being side B attacks in melee and I didn't know how to integrate that into my gameplay, so I was thinking, what are some other things I will need to be integrating into my play? He hasn't played for a while so the playing field will be leveled a little bit.

Thanks

 

[mecawe]

Controllers in canada

Hi, do you think this Japan controller will work on my gamecube and american wii?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Official...o_Game_Controllers&hash=item19e63d04a0&_uhb=1

 

[Bones0]

Hi everyone, I'm Taylor. I'm new to smashboards and I have a general question. My friend and I might be getting together tomorrow to play melee together and last time we played he was much better than me. He was using shiek. I'm wondering if there's any easy answers some of you could give to, "How can I get the edge on this guy?" Simple things, like I noticed that the gamecube controllers have different locations (from the 64 version) of A and B- so I will have to get used to that. I just remember there being side B attacks in melee and I didn't know how to integrate that into my gameplay, so I was thinking, what are some other things I will need to be integrating into my play? He hasn't played for a while so the playing field will be leveled a little bit.

Thanks

It sounds like you're really new to Melee, if not Smash in general, so I would just focus on the basics. Figure out the best moves to recover with your preferred character (a lot of side-Bs are useful for recovering), figure out your best combo moves, and figure out your best KO moves. The easiest way to absorb all of this information is to just watch videos of pros on YouTube and emulate to the best of your ability. You won't be able to do most of what they're doing until you practice the advanced techniques (YouTube search "SSBM Advanced How To Play").

Controllers in canada

Hi, do you think this Japan controller will work on my gamecube and american wii?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Official...o_Game_Controllers&hash=item19e63d04a0&_uhb=1

There aren't regional restrictions on controllers, so yes, it should work fine.

 

[Demna]

Hey guys, is the SDI in PM and Melee different from the SDI in Brawl? And how so?

 

[.K1]

So, I know there is a thread for it, Im just not sure where / what its called......im looking for how to calculate frame advantage / disadvantage on shield for various attacks.....or could someone just tell me the formula for calculating shield stun? I know it has something to do with percent dealt, right? Like......X% incurs X frames of shield stun, Y% incurs Y frame of shield stun, etc. From there I can just math with landlag and all that business.

 

[Xyzz]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309694

 

[James "Taylor" Stretch]

It sounds like you're really new to Melee, if not Smash in general, so I would just focus on the basics. Figure out the best moves to recover with your preferred character (a lot of side-Bs are useful for recovering), figure out your best combo moves, and figure out your best KO moves. The easiest way to absorb all of this information is to just watch videos of pros on YouTube and emulate to the best of your ability. You won't be able to do most of what they're doing until you practice the advanced techniques (YouTube search "SSBM Advanced How To Play").




There aren't regional restrictions on controllers, so yes, it should work fine.

Just wanted to let you know I appreciate your answer!

 

[.K1]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309694

Thank you !!!

Edit: One more thing......when I calculate shield stun, do I take the STALE damage value, or the raw damage value? It seems like it would change things a lot lol

 

[Xyzz]

Shield stun uses the staled move damage, but doesn't stale further.

So if your move is fresh you can hit his shield over and over and over again and it'll always do the same shield stun.
Actually, if your move is stale, you can hit his shield over and over and over again and it'll always do the same shield stun. Just less of it, if the stale percent doesn't net the same advantage anymore, haha :D

 

[.K1]

that last sentence completely messed me up. so lets say I have an aerial that does 10% fresh......it stales to about 3% or 4%. Do I use the 3% to calculate shield stun value?

Edit: reason I ask is because KirbyKaze uses Shieks full power fair as an example

 

[Xyzz]

You can't stale a move from 10 to 3 percent, it's 66% or sth at least. But yeah, you'd use that value to calculate the shield stun.

 

[.K1]

I see.....I guess Ill get back to the lab. Im trying to do the "advantage on shield" values for some of the low tier characters that dont have it complete in the hitbox/frame data thread.

Edit: is there any particular reason KK uses non staled moves in bot of his example in the link you provided?

Also I just tested with Roy.....his Fair deals 8% at full power. It scales down to 4% which is 50% power.....so apparently its not the whole 66% thing you mentioned.

 

[Xyzz]

Maybe it's .6 or sth, I'm not quite sure. It's not like you'd ever hit people with the same move 5 times in a row anyways.
It's usually enough to calculate the unstaled move and then keep in mind it might be a frame or two lower if you've hit with it before.

 

[.K1]

Update: Just checked with Samus as well. Her Dair at full power does 16% but scales down to 8%, so im going to assume that lowest possible damage from a fully scaled move is 50% of the base damage value.

Also, I cross referenced the Samus hitbox and frame data thread. It lists her Dair as being +2 on shield in the best case scenario.Using her full power and scaled damage values, it plays out like this:


Dair: 16% (full power) / 8% (fully scaled)

16% = 9 frames of shield stun incurred
8% = 5 frames of shield stun incurred

9f shield stun - 7 frame landlag (when L cancelled) = +2
5f shield stun - 7 frame landlag (when L cancelled) = -2

Unless im missing something, it looks to me like shield stun values use base damage value instead of scaled damage values. If I AM missing something, someone please correct me. I dont want to post wrong numbers when I come up with the final results for X character.

 

[James "Taylor" Stretch]

Is smash 64 as deep as melee? Does it have as much competitive potential?

 

[Kadano]

so im going to assume that lowest possible damage from a fully scaled move is 50% of the base damage value.

55% for max staling, actually. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale-move_negation#Melee_and_Brawl

And yes, in frame advantage calculations, attacks are assumed to hit “fresh” aka unstale.

 

[.K1]

55% for max staling, actually. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale-move_negation#Melee_and_Brawl

And yes, in frame advantage calculations, attacks are assumed to hit “fresh” aka unstale.

sweeeeeeet thanks for clearing that up

 

[Deleted member]

who the **** thought no bans in bo5 would be a good idea

 

[Varist]

Is smash 64 as deep as melee? Does it have as much competitive potential?

no and no

 

[Quot3]

What are my best kill options as a Fox main vs Dr. Mario? Upthrow uair doesn't work and edgeguarding him is a pain for me I get stage spiked a lot by the up b