Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Okay this is a realllllyyyyy dumb question but here it goes. What is the best way to exploit an opponent who shields when you jump, expecting to shield grab you out of an aerial?

 

[Anand]

Okay this is a realllllyyyyy dumb question but here it goes. What is the best way to exploit an opponent who shields when you jump, expecting to shield grab you out of an aerial?

Either L-cancel / space your aerials so they can't be shield grabbed, or empty hop (into grab).

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Either L-cancel / space your aerials so they can't be shield grabbed, or empty hop (into grab).

What if their grab range is much longer than mine in the second option? I guess I have to go to the first then? I dunno, it's just frustrating because I feel like there should be some hard read I should be able to pull and not just space well to not get grabbed. Idk, maybe not though.

 

[KrIsP!]

It depends who you play...but they can't grab behind themselves.

 

[Anand]

What if their grab range is much longer than mine in the second option? I guess I have to go to the first then? I dunno, it's just frustrating because I feel like there should be some hard read I should be able to pull and not just space well to not get grabbed. Idk, maybe not though.

Well, the point is they'll be expecting an aerial, and delay their grab to account for the shieldstun and hitlag (and won't be able to react to your empty hop grab in time). If you play a spacie, you could also try empty hop shine-grab.

Also, you could try landing behind them.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Yeah that's true, but I often find myself being grabbed anyway when I empty sh, but I probably just need to do it faster or something. And landing behind them works, but against Falco/Fox I often times find myself eating a bair oos. I am not trying to make this sound like it's impossible, because it's obviously not, but I just feel like I could do a way better job capitalizing on this situation.

I usually play as marth, ganon, and puff. Though with marth since his grab range is so long, empty short hop grab works pretty well for me, and with the others, I usually can space well enough to not get grabbed, but I still am not sure how to not get grabbed, and then punish them for doing so. (Thank you very much for the help everyone by the way.)

 

[Ripple]

DJ waveland on platform then drop down behind them with something

 

[E-102 Gamma]

What is the best way to exploit an opponent who shields when you jump, expecting to shield grab you out of an aerial?

Koopa Klaw.

(Kidding.)

I usually play as marth, ganon, and puff.

If you feel like humiliating your opponent, you might try shorthopping to waveland to up-B. Up-B counts as a grab, so it ignores shields (even mid-air). Guaranteed to induce rage.

Just be sure to use it when your opponent least expects it.

 

[KrIsP!]

I usually play as marth, ganon, and puff.

As marth you have range, wave land away and see what they do, you can probably tipper fsmash the grab but if they're smart and they call it expect a WD OoS. As ganon, upB yo. As puff, bair above them so they can't jump out of it and using your jumps they'll probably get bored and WD away which you can still hit them easily with a FF bair, or land behind their shield and utilt. Just some ideas.

They have options OoS but you shouldn't attack their shield if you know they're expecting it, stay out of their grab range and contemplate what they'll do.

 

[Bones0]

WL back and punish the whiffed grab.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

These are a lot of really good ideas and I am going to try them out today. Thanks a lot for the help everyone!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Shielding is generally really strong if someone jumps. For the characters you listed, you have the tools to space outside of their range, so work on that. If you are committed to the jump and you can see that your spacing is wrong, you can still do a few things. For a hard read option, you can land without attacking and grab immediately. Otherwise, you can do a late aerial, which gives you the most active frames possible after landing before the shield stun is over, and then dash away to bait their grab.

To avoid these problems, make sure you arent moving too far forward with your attacks. The three characters you listed are zoning characters. They are somewhat defensive; you can't just rush down and expect to be safe. There are a lot of techniques to control your character's momentum and spacing to your advantage, learning these may very well solve your problems altogether.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Shielding is generally really strong if someone jumps. For the characters you listed, you have the tools to space outside of their range, so work on that. If you are committed to the jump and you can see that your spacing is wrong, you can still do a few things. For a hard read option, you can land without attacking and grab immediately. Otherwise, you can do a late aerial, which gives you the most active frames possible after landing before the shield stun is over, and then dash away to bait their grab.

To avoid these problems, make sure you arent moving too far forward with your attacks. The three characters you listed are zoning characters. They are somewhat defensive; you can't just rush down and expect to be safe. There are a lot of techniques to control your character's momentum and spacing to your advantage, learning these may very well solve your problems altogether.

These points are all really good too. I notice that I often get punished (not just by shield grabs, but WD back, dash back, etc) when I throw out aerials so you're probably right that this might be an underlying problem. Thank you very much for the advice!

 

[bolt.]

Does anyone know what items and stages used to be allowed back when melee first started?

 

[Jayk]

Can anyone explain what Jump Cancel Grabbing is, how to do it, and when it is useful?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When a character jumps, they do not leave the ground instantly. There is 3-8 frames of "jumpsquat". This jumpsquat animation can be canceled into a few things, one of which is grab. To perform this, simply press Z after pressing X/Y but before leaving the ground (usually you press them "at the same time").

To explain why it is useful, let me first explain the two types of grab animations. There is a standing grab animation and a dash grab animation. For most characters, dash grab starts later and has more lag, but can be done while running or dashing. When you jump cancel grab, it uses your standing grab animation as well as making your character slide on the ground a little ways (depending on their traction). So JC grab is not only an alternate to the dash grab, for most characters it is strictly better than dash grab.

Hope that helps

 

[Jayk]

Very, thank you

 

[Gea]

There is also dash-canceled boost grabbing, which is really only useful for Sheik as far as I know. This one is best seen with Sheik, and best heard with Dr. Mario. Basically you do a dash attack and before the attack comes out you grab and you should do a dash grab instead of a dash attack. In Sheik's case she will lunge forward a bit while grabbing, and in Dr. Mario's case all it does is make you use his trashy dash grab but with the audio of his dash attack (Wa ha!)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That is called a boost grab, not a dash canceled grab. A dash canceled grab would be when you run and then cancel your dash by holding down then grab.

 

[Gea]

Ah yeah my bad, wasn't thinking clearly when I posted that.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Anyone know the frame data behind getting your shield broken?
How long you remain unable to do any action from the moment your shield breaks, based on whether you mash out or not. Also, the frame data behind mashing out.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you can break out, similarly to mashing out of a grab. You can look up the exact numbers in m2k's frame data

 

[AceDudeyeah]

you can break out, similarly to mashing out of a grab. You can look up the exact numbers in m2k's frame data

I looked in Mew2king's list, it wasn't there. Unless you're saying the escape formula for grabs is the same as for shield breaks

 

[-LzR-]

At least in Brawl, the more damage you have the faster you will get out of the stun after your shield breaks. Though I wouldn't know since I play Puff and when my shield breaks I just die and when their shield breaks I rest so I have never had the opportunity to find out.

 

[Bones0]

Idk how no one ever thought of this (unless someone did lol), but someone should make a mod that causes "FINISH HIM!" to flash on the screen when someone's shield breaks. :D

 

[Citrus]

If I land an aerial move during the auto cancel period but I also l cancel it which takes priority
The auto cancel lag or the l cancel lag?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Auto cancel means the move counts as being fully complete when landing, giving you no landing lag from the attack. L cancel reduces the attack's landing lag by half. You cannot L cancel an autocancel, you'll probably just end up shielding on accident.

 

[Citrus]

Ok thanks
I play puff and always hit l regardless of it auto cancels or not and wanted to make sure it wasn't goofing anything up

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Some moves also have auto-cancel at the beginning of their animations, not just at the end.

 

[Bones0]

L-cancelling cuts the landing lag of moves in half, but if you didn't land during the move, the input has no effect. I L-cancel all the time with Marth's nair even though a lot of the time I am ACing. Doing the L-cancel anyway ensures that if I nair to late that I will at least L-cancel it.

 

[rpotts]

The biggest difference to work around in regards to auto cancel vs L cancel is trying to drop through platforms immediately after landing. When you L cancel, as soon as the 1/2 landing lag is through you can drop through platforms, but if you autocancel you land with your knees bent, crouching down like jumpsquat and can't fall through platforms immidiately without walking forward a tiny bit to cancel the jumpsquat, aka Isai dropping. This is one of the most common causes for the repeated ducking people accidentally do when they are trying to quickly fall through platforms.

 

[hectohertz]

lets say I am being hit by a move which has knockback that sends me 100% to the left:
how is my trajectory different if i:
- DI left?
or
- DI right?
vs
- no DI

I know the "correct" (survival) DI is perpendicular, but my question is, is my trajectory the same or different from no DI in those circumstances

 

[Xyzz]

It is the same. If you DI along the axis no matter whether you DI towards or away you don't alter your trajectory at all.

If the move happens to send you left and slightly upwards (which moves tend to do) you will fly higher if you DI towards the right however (or lower (and a bit farther away) if you DI left).

Also: the correct combo DI usually is perpendicular as well, just in the direction opposite to correct survival DI :D

 

[hectohertz]

There is also dash-canceled boost grabbing, which is really only useful for Sheik as far as I know. This one is best seen with Sheik, and best heard with Dr. Mario. Basically you do a dash attack and before the attack comes out you grab and you should do a dash grab instead of a dash attack. In Sheik's case she will lunge forward a bit while grabbing, and in Dr. Mario's case all it does is make you use his trashy dash grab but with the audio of his dash attack (Wa ha!)

its useful for fox as well

also try it with kirby you get a little bit of flame before he starts the grab. its hard to notice but kinda cool. pretty useless though i think

 

[hectohertz]

awesome, thats what my intuition told me, but i wanted to confirm it

 

[Gea]

It is the same. If you DI along the axis no matter whether you DI towards or away you don't alter your trajectory at all.

If the move happens to send you left and slightly upwards (which moves tend to do) you will fly higher if you DI towards the right however (or lower (and a bit farther away) if you DI left).

Also: the correct combo DI usually is perpendicular as well, just in the direction opposite to correct survival DI :D

This. I have a crappy diagram to help explain it better. Since it's hard to get 100% horizontal trajectory without lots of extra help I just quickly show the trajectory of Jiggs at 0% with a motion sensor bomb on the middle of stadium.

You can see that the results match up and if you think about what is happening, will easily tell you what a horizontal move will do.

Edit: fixed

 

[Strong Badam]

replace "project m" with "melee" and it remains accurate

gea: optimal DI on "horizontal" moves (AKA moves that actually send at a 45 degree angle because 0 angle on a bunch of moves would be stupidly broken) isn't full left or full right, just so you know. if a move sends you 45 degrees up & right, optimal DI is up and left, or down and right.

 

[Gea]

The discussion wasn't about optimal DI. He was asking about DI that was pure left/right compared to no DI. I just wanted something more concrete when mocking up a crappy visual for him. My DI is quite good, thanks though.

 

[Strong Badam]

didn't say you said - finish this sentence because i'm too tired to

 

[-LzR-]

Many Melee MU guides say stuff like DI Puff's or Fox's uthrow upwards so you fly out of their range. Is the DI in Melee different than in Brawl or are they just stupid?