Bones0
Smash Legend
You can get away with a lot of illegitimate CGs on comps, so that won't really tell us anything. lol
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Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!
- Thread starter DtJ Jungle
- Start date
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Didn't get a chance to test but I would still like confirmation on this.
Knut
Smash Apprentice
i know samus can chain grab marth CPU's from like 25-75%. i would never try that in an actual match though >_<
and just out of curiosity, lets say you are shielding, and you're tilting it down and someone were jabbing it. if you were to let go of L or R, would you be CC'ing as the shield goes away? or is there like a window, before the CC takes effect?
and just out of curiosity, lets say you are shielding, and you're tilting it down and someone were jabbing it. if you were to let go of L or R, would you be CC'ing as the shield goes away? or is there like a window, before the CC takes effect?
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I'm gonna try that in some friendlies tonight if my usual crew is meeting up lol.
You have the best questions. I second this.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
As far as I know, you can't CC in any kind of lag, or to paraphrase it: you can't CC while you're not able to use anything of your grounded moveset right now.
Which means that you will CC as soon as the animation of just letting your shield go finishes (which is about ten frames).
Which means that you will CC as soon as the animation of just letting your shield go finishes (which is about ten frames).
Knut
Smash Apprentice
yea i should have figured. i guess ppl would be doing that if someone were doing rapid jabs on shield.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
All was found in the M2k stats thread.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
between 14 and 17 frames depending on character
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Very well, that goes on the list of info stuff...
been wondering about the exact frames for that for ages :D
been wondering about the exact frames for that for ages :D
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I like to shield with R and also WD oos with R. Right Bumper Held -> Jump -> Right Bumper Released -> Right Bumper Held.
How much of a window do I have to jump and wavedash as if I was using a different button? Including jump squat and all other actions that have to take place. Basically asking this to find out if I should reconsider another option for WD oos but I've become pretty consistent and fast at my current method.
How much of a window do I have to jump and wavedash as if I was using a different button? Including jump squat and all other actions that have to take place. Basically asking this to find out if I should reconsider another option for WD oos but I've become pretty consistent and fast at my current method.
Fortress | Sveet
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If you're consistent, don't worry about it. I'll still give you the math though.
Samus has a 3 frame jumpsquat, or as SDM puts it she is airborne frame 4. If you release shield before you begin your jump, you will do your shield drop animation. So in order to WD with the same button you must be able to release and repress the trigger within 3-4 frames. I'm not exactly sure which action takes priority if they happen on the same frame, which is why I put a range.
Samus has a 3 frame jumpsquat, or as SDM puts it she is airborne frame 4. If you release shield before you begin your jump, you will do your shield drop animation. So in order to WD with the same button you must be able to release and repress the trigger within 3-4 frames. I'm not exactly sure which action takes priority if they happen on the same frame, which is why I put a range.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Not the greatest of windows, but so far I like my chances. I'll take this into consideration if I decide to switch at some point. Thanks Sveet.
dawn001
Smash Ace
what are CC`d , DD grabs and Dj??
noob here...
noob here...
dawn001
Smash Ace
thank bro..... i needed that..
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Though Ripple answered the question, if you don't know what some of the terms are this might help. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749
Also, no offense, dark blue font is kind of hard to read.
Also, no offense, dark blue font is kind of hard to read.
Internalyzed
Smash Apprentice
Note that the aforementioned thread hasn't been updated in a while, so certain things (like the tier list and stagelist) are out of date.
john!
Smash Hero
i have no problems shielding and wavedashing with the same button, and my fingers aren't especially fast, so you should be fine.
Fortress | Sveet
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You don't give yourself enough credit, john
john!
Smash Hero
well, maybe my left pointer finger is super fast, who knows?
Fortress | Sveet
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Use strong hits to break through missiles. Use your movement to avoid the missiles. If you're having trouble getting close, try practicing maintaining equilibrium. No sense trying to run before you can walk.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
For some reason I find it rather easy to powershield samus missiles in comparision to other projectiles, so I'd recommend trying to do that as well 
Fortress | Sveet
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Yeah but theres a lot more risk if you mess up. Easier to move around, with less risk.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Power shielding a missile is only going to cancel the next incoming missile. Bait out attacks with faked approaches. Find how the Samus reacts to each of your approaches and see if you can find a way in. If Samus is recovering low you don't necessarily have to hit us but you can also hit our bombs which messes up our bomb recovery pretty bad.
Piemaster37
Smash Rookie
i didnt wanna make a thread because i assumed there already was one BUT.... could anyone tell me where i could find a thread with for falco defensive strats. im still trying to learn this game and i have nooo defense whats so ever
john!
Smash Hero
a defensive falco is playing falco wrong
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I was thinkin the same. Falco is all about that overwhelming pressure.
Piemaster37
Smash Rookie
ok for sure but let me rephrase, is there anywhere that can show me the proper way to punish? i feel like im always doing it wrong, and i also can never escape pressure properly. unless i dont need to worry about that and just overwhelmingly pressure
Piemaster37
Smash Rookie
or maybe this is more of my lack of matchup knowledge
Bones0
Smash Legend
Don't listen to those noobs. Good defense as Falco is crucial because he gets comboed so easily and killed at such low %s. It is certainly true that the best defense is a good offense, but it's unrealistic to simply be on top of your opponent with moves at all times. Melee is a really complicated game, however, so something as abstract as defense can be discussed from a million different perspectives. There is how to defend during neutral, how to defend during shield pressure, how to defend even when you're on the offensive! To add to the complexity, the solutions to these perspectives vary greatly depending on the matchup. For instance, Puff is extremely slow so you can tech roll away from her most of the time and be safe. Vs. faster characters, rolling towards the center so you are far from the ledge is more important, or focusing on teching in place to get you shield up may be more important. The best way to learn what's good in what situations are, in order of effectiveness:
1. Playing: Even using the two methods below, you often won't truly understand something until you've applied it and tried to apply it in many different ways over and over.
2. Videos: Watch as many videos of credible top Falco players as possible to learn the basic/normal "solutions" to certain situations. You mentioned you were struggling with getting out of shield pressure, so one way you can effectively learn a better way of dealing with it is to watch a set of PP vs. Mango, and look specifically for instances where either player is being pressured. See what move they use OoS (if any), when the use it, and in what situations they use it (were they by the ledge, at a high %, a large stock deficit, etc). All of these factors matter, so when you struggle to find the pattern in the seemingly chaotic engagements, you can turn to...
3. Forums: In particular, the thread you should mostly pay attention to is the Falco Discussion Thread. I would highly recommend turning to this source whenever you've done the first two options and are still lost. You can also use it to get a general starting point for systematically improving an aspect of your game using videos and practice. So let's say you notice you are getting comboed super hard every time you get touched. If you can't figure out why watching videos or adjusting your gameplay during practice, you can ask for help in the thread. Then someone would say something along the lines of, "Make sure you combo DI (DI away from your opponent) when you don't think they will use a kill move." "Intentionally miss techs sometimes to stop them from getting easy regrabs over and over." "Aim for the edges of platforms or the stage to slide off instead of teching." etc.
These responses will not and CAN NOT encompass your entire question, but with sparks of ideas like this, you can go back to your practice and apply them. Mess around with them. Experiment. Figure out what works when, and just as importantly, when it doesn't. You can also go back to videos at this point and you will often find yourself noticing things you had never seen before even if you've seen the video a hundred times already. I sometimes find rewatching videos is almost better than watching new content because being able to figure out what you missed the first time around can help you prevent missing similar things the next time. There's a lot to learn in Melee so refining your ability to improve is your #1 tool for success. It doesn't matter how much raw talent you have if you're unable to improve. A lot of people are naturally talented at games. They may be able to space moves without even trying or link combos intuitively, but if they don't work off of that base, someone who is incompetent at everything and improves will pass them in no time.
General Heinz
Smash Journeyman
Okay, so I'm pretty sure it was hax who said something along the lines that CC'ing in melee was "broken" (or at least that he didn't like CC'ing/wouldn't include CC'ing in melee if given the choice), and I'm inclined to agree, but does anyone want to offer their opinion for why CC'ing is BAD for the metagame? I guess "bad" is sort of relative because it depends what you want to emphasize in any fighting game, or competitive game for that matter, so it's certainly subject to personal bias, and in that way maybe this post is just requesting people's personal opinions on the matter.
So then, to you, why is CC'ing "good" for the metagame or "bad" for the metagame? What does it emphasize and what does it require from players? Perhaps compare it as an option to other options that are used in similar situations in other fighters.
I dunno, just looking for an analysis I guess.
So then, to you, why is CC'ing "good" for the metagame or "bad" for the metagame? What does it emphasize and what does it require from players? Perhaps compare it as an option to other options that are used in similar situations in other fighters.
I dunno, just looking for an analysis I guess.
Piemaster37
Smash Rookie
thank you so much man i will take all of your advice. im going to a melee tourny in a few weeks at a bar in stl and i know im just gonna get blown up lol. but im training as hard as i can. the bad thing is the people i train with dont short hop anything or l cancel anything, basically ignore the metagame completely. so when i watch videos it seems like it helps me understand metagame instead of basic fundamentals. im a big 64 smash player, but melee is so different, i feel like i just dont understand it, or im just looking at it the wrong way. a lot probly has to do because i play kirby but ah well. but again thank you so much
Fortress | Sveet
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I'm glad you're approaching the game from this angle. Aggression without understanding defense is a useless endeavor, how will you counter defense if you don't even know what defense is?
For falco, his strongest move for holding ground is his Bair. You can autocancel it in a SH which makes it very quick, and it has quite a bit of priority. With your back turned, you also have the ability to utilt, which is another quick, high priority move.
Be weary about lasering from the defense. Lasers leave you vulnerable during most of your jump and don't protect your body at all, really. Lasers are good for locking people down when actively attacking, or for enticing people into attacking you, but they aren't useful for actually defending yourself.
Many times you will find yourself at a disadvantage in either spacing or timing. If this happens, you must be able to work with your shield. Out of shield you generally have 3 options: attack in place, move horizontally, or move vertically. Most good players will space so that the first option is not viable (avoid shield grabs, shines and attacks out of shield), but they are still viable if they make a mistake or are trying to metagame you. The second one is the safest if you have stage to move to (ei, you're not at the edge with them blocking your forward movement), but since it is so safe it is commonly anticipated by opponents and countered. Moving vertically also has its pros and cons, mostly dependent on platform formations and stage position. Remember, what goes up must come down, so moving up gives your opponent a chance to hit you trying to come down. If you're at the edge and you cant move horizontally, jumping on the platform above you can give you some more room to maneuver.
For falco specifically, you can get away with being more linear with your shield options. You can either shine out of shield or otherwise wavedash backwards out of shield, and that will cover most common scenarios.
Bones0
Smash Legend
CCing places a lot of emphasis on grabbing at low %s, and some would argue that Melee already encourages grab-heavy styles. If you take Roy as an extreme example, he pretty much can't do anything at lower %s other than grab or dtilt because none of his other moves are strong enough to knock opponents over. Better characters don't have to grab, but they are also limited to just a few move choices (Falco will want to dair, Fox will want to dair, Peach will want to fair, etc). I would hardly consider it broken or anything though. True CCs are pretty rare because it just limits your movement so much. Yeah, it places a lot of emphasis on grabs, but getting grabs on crouching opponents who have no mobility is so easy that it balances it out mostly.
Fortress | Sveet
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CCing makes a stock more valuable at the lower percents. CCing also opens the door for subtle option selects and spacing. Without CCs, a lot of attacks would just be too good, like fox's nair and marth's fair.
If someone techs in place on the edge and they fall off immediately (i'm not sure how better to explain it, I'll give an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pIS5N2cai0Q#t=270s)
Do they lose their invincibility frames as they're falling on to the ledge? Could you punish it as they're falling down?
Do they lose their invincibility frames as they're falling on to the ledge? Could you punish it as they're falling down?
Fortress | Sveet
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Yes they lose their invincibility. I have grabbed people during tech chases a few times when they've done that.
Fortress | Sveet
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its a ledge cancel, they are actionable as soon as they slide off. There is usually only a couple of frames before they grab the edge, so its not very easy to punish. The times I have done it were because falcon is really tall.
You can't ledge cancel out of a tech roll, which is why amsah survived in this clip. If they do their entire tech roll animation then continue off with momentum, it is kinda the same scenario where they are actionable, but how they move and how fast depends on their momentum.
You can't ledge cancel out of a tech roll, which is why amsah survived in this clip. If they do their entire tech roll animation then continue off with momentum, it is kinda the same scenario where they are actionable, but how they move and how fast depends on their momentum.