Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[Lovage]

Uh, not that I have much experience or anything, (because I don't,) but I'm inclined to disagree with you there.

20 frames is a third of a second (assuming the game is managing to run consistently at 60 FPS), which is lot compared to some other frame windows. For instance, the window for powershielding and reflecting a projectile is some 2-4 frames (I've heard various numbers), and the window to L-cancel an attack is apparently 7 frames.

So, relatively speaking, 20 frames sounds like a lot.

yea but you were somehow implying that because teching is so slow, getting knocked down is a get ***** or get ***** situation. and unless you are playing armada or m2k, you're almost definitely wrong on this one

 

[Bones0]

To add to Lovage's point, even when they ARE reacting perfectly to techs, there's still a lot of things you need to consider to minimize potential losses. Typically people cover the most likely options with good punish options, and then they will revert to weaker punishes for options they think are less likely. Even if they are just regrabbing no matter what you do, there is still a huge difference between getting grabbed at the ledge, at the center of the stage, under a side plat, under a top plat, near enough to a plat that you can slide off, etc. This all varies within matchups, percentages, and what each player has been conditioned to expect. So I would say in general that knockdown is RPS-like, but instead of it being a guessing game to see who wins, it's a guessing game to see how good of a punish the standing player can get with a significant possibility that they will choke or revert to an option so weak that it equates to the player on the ground escaping (ex. you quick roll away from Sheik and you ground tech her dash attack).

 

[E-102 Gamma]

While 20 frames by itself is a fair bit, you have to keep in mind that teching is in reaction to being hit which will take a moment for you to process and react to, especially if it catches you off guard. So while twenty frames sounds like eternity in a vacuum, it's a pretty small window in reality.

Now hold on a moment. 20 frames is a third of a second, but the average human response time is only about a fifth. If one is prepared to react quickly, one should be able to tech on reaction with fairly good consistency (assuming one is given the full 20 frames; apparently, there are certain cases in which one gets fewer than 20 frames or even no frames at all).

yea but you were somehow implying that because teching is so slow, getting knocked down is a get ***** or get ***** situation.

That wasn't me though. It was InfiniteHolograms who expressed his pessimistic views on teching.

 

[Construct]

The problem is that you aren't expecting that you're going to be hit (usually), so it takes you longer than a fifth of a second or whatever to sort out what is going on and for you to realize that you're suddenly on the defensive and need to tech/DI/ledgecancel. That's why teching is common, but nobody techs everything perfectly. The twenty second frame is a window before you hit the ground, so you don't always even have full access to that. You don't have 20 frames from the time you get, say, spiked by a falco dair to react since you hit the ground before that.

tl;dr you're not always going to be able to tech 20 frames sounds super free it's not

 

[E-102 Gamma]

The problem is that you aren't expecting that you're going to be hit (usually), so it takes you longer than a fifth of a second or whatever to sort out what is going on and for you to realize that you're suddenly on the defensive and need to tech/DI/ledgecancel. That's why teching is common, but nobody techs everything perfectly. The twenty second frame is a window before you hit the ground, so you don't always even have full access to that. You don't have 20 frames from the time you get, say, spiked by a falco dair to react since you hit the ground before that.

tl;dr you're not always going to be able to tech 20 frames sounds super free it's not

True .

 

[TheGoat]

For grabs, can you di more effectively if you move the control stick during the frames you are exactly thrown?

 

[E-102 Gamma]

For grabs, can you di more effectively if you move the control stick during the frames you are exactly thrown?

For plain ol' DI, it doesn't matter when you input a direction, so long as that direction is being input after the hitlag ends.

Most throws cannot be SDI'd (that is, "Smash DI;" when you quickly input a direction during hitlag and your character "jumps" in that direction slightly). Jigglypuff's forward throw is apparently the only known exception.

And since throws (besides Jiggs' FThrow) don't have any hitlag, ASDI (Automatic SDI; weaker SDI that takes place after the hitlag and reads from either the directional stick or the C-stick, with the latter taking priority) doesn't apply, either.

Here's the thread I'm getting this info from:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

TL;DR: No, unless you're being FThrown by Jigglypuff.

 

[Lovage]

The problem is that you aren't expecting that you're going to be hit (usually), so it takes you longer than a fifth of a second or whatever to sort out what is going on and for you to realize that you're suddenly on the defensive and need to tech/DI/ledgecancel. That's why teching is common, but nobody techs everything perfectly. The twenty second frame is a window before you hit the ground, so you don't always even have full access to that. You don't have 20 frames from the time you get, say, spiked by a falco dair to react since you hit the ground before that.

tl;dr you're not always going to be able to tech 20 frames sounds super free it's not

**** you

 

[Construct]

Eh lovage?

 

[TheGoat]

ooh ok. Yea I've read that thread but it's kind of confusing, thanks for the explanation.

 

[Qcumber]

Game outcome

Hey there,

I'm new to the forum. Registered just now because me and my friend are confused. Might be a very noobish qestion to ask, but we're puzzled.

When playing a regular vs match in melee, with the sd penalty set to -2, we had this outcome at our last match:

Me:
KO'S: 2
FALLS: 2
SD: 1

Him:
KO'S: 2
FALLS: 2
SD: 1

So we had the same score, we thought. But when the match ended, I had won. When looking at the next tab in the endscreen, we saw that the totals of my friend were 3 falls, instead of 2, and mine were 2. We found out that with certain items, sometimes three points were subtracted, instead of two. When and how does this happen?

We'd really appreciate the help!

Steven

 

[tRoll King]

Does anyone remember an easter egg that involved changing the language setting to Japanese? It was something risque or sexual. Not overtly sexual, but just a "That's interesting" kind of ee. Can't remember what it was...

 

[Arcadia157]

Regarding stale moves, does a move become more stale the more you use it (including when you don't hit your opponent), or does it become stale only when you inflict damage?

I'm mostly curious about this because I tend to notice in almost every match, when someone makes a KO, they spam moves and tech skill as a form of "haha i pwn'd you" and I'm wondering if that's overall a bad idea.

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Pretty sure moves only stale when they connect.

 

[Xyzz]

Moves stale when they hit:
- a player

They don't stale when:
- hitting thin air
- hitting a shield (shield stun calculation uses the currently staled value though)

I don't remember whether they stale when you hit random **** on the stage (brinstar stuff and the like).

 

[Arcadia157]

Awesome, thanks guys! I'll be sure to spam all the tech skill I can when I take out someone's stock haha

 

[SgtJester]

You have to pay attention to how your attack lands.

There's slightly different timing for L-cancelling, and it depends on:

If your attack misses
If your attack hits your opponent
If your attack hits your opponent's shield

It may be difficult at the beginning, but soon enough it will become almost like muscle memory. But basically it's just practice, practice, practice.

I know, old post, but that's helpful. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That is very good advice, indeed!

 

[Arcadia157]

So this past weekend, I was playing smash with some buddies who I haven't seen in a while. We're all decent with myself and another (who I will name Bob for the sake of ease) who have the capability of placing somewhat well in smaller local tournaments. While I could beat the two who haven't put in as much work as I have, I could do very little to Bob.

In all my matches with Bob, he would 2 or 3 stock me usually and I feel like this was because he plays a very aggressive style of play and I had very little room to maneuver without getting hit by something. The few times I was able to control the tempo of the match however, I would either rack up 30-40+ damage or take a stock off of him. But those were only from a few opportunities.

tl;dr: So my main question is how do I deal with a very aggressive player who can play any top tier character with up to par tech skill?

 

[Xyzz]

You main Marth? He is pretty good at keeping space, so don't let stage be taken from you for no reason, especially if you need it to evade his attacks (space with fairs / dtilt / dash dance).
Try using the room you have to bait attacks out of him (probably using WD back / dash dancing) that will miss, then proceed to punish.
If you do get cornered you should probably shield (since most aggressive players aren't too grab happy ), and try to work from there (shield grabbing unsafe stuff (overshooting is hard if you're at the edge of the stage already :D) / wd oos or roll to safety at good opportunities).

 

[DerfMidWest]

Eh lovage?

I think he's trying to tell you, in Lovage speak, that you're wrong and you should be able to tech everything.

 

[VoiD-]

How does the game determine which parts of an attack hit backward?

 

[DerfMidWest]

By whatever hitbox hits you.

 

[VoiD-]

So each hitbox can only hit in a given direction?

 

[6VI6]

vanir is incorrect
If the opponent is behind you when you hit them, they will be sent in reverse direction

Of course to be behind you and still be hit by the attack the opponent is generally quite close to you

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Attacks are hitbox-based, and hitboxes are nondiscriminatory. If a hitbox touches a hurtbox, it's a hit.

 

[VoiD-]

vanir is incorrect
If the opponent is behind you when you hit them, they will be sent in reverse direction

Of course to be behind you and still be hit by the attack the opponent is generally quite close to you

That's what I was thinking, thanks. How does the engine determine what constitutes behind the character, considering characters have multiple hurtboxes? Does it use their torsos?

 

[Xyzz]

As you probably know, the hit and hurtboxes are basically just a collection of circles (e.g. http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac30/X1-12/Marth Hitboxes/MarthUTilt.gif?t=1283114031 red = hit, yellow = hurtboxes). To determine whether you hit or not, the game checks each frame whether hit boxes of one character and hurtboxes of the other character overlap (this is pretty simple to be done, if everything is circle based (calculate the squareroot of the sum of the squared differences between the x and y coordinates, check whether that squareroot is smaller than the sum of the circle radii)).
If a hit occurs it just checks where the centers of the overlapping boxes are; if the hurtbox is left of the hitbox the character gets send flying towards the left (with the exact angle based on the trajectory of the move he got hit by and his DI).
Which hit box hits if multiple hitboxes connect in the same frame is probably based on the order they are specified in the "move description" in the game files; wouldn't worry too much about this, and just take your experience for it (:

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Which hit box hits if multiple hitboxes connect in the same frame is probably based on the order they are specified in the "move description" in the game files; wouldn't worry too much about this, and just take your experience for it (:

If you're referring to priority, when both players are aerial, player one's attacks take priority over the other three players', player two's attacks take priority over player three's and player four's, and so on and so forth.

I'm not quite sure how priority works when one or both of the players are on the ground, though I think a grounded move will out-prioritize an aerial move. And if both moves are grounded, it's simply a matter of whichever one does a certain amount of damage more than the other one. If the amounts of damage that they do are too close, the moves will chink and cancel each other.

EDIT: Whoops, the kind of priority I'm referring to only applies to grabs and certain other things like picking up items, rather than all attacks in general. It also determines who wins in a sudden death round if multiple players die on the same frame.

 

[Bones0]

The direction you are sent is simply based on which side of your hurtbox was hit by the hitbox (hit on the left, you get sent right, and vice versa). Practicing stomp-knees is a very easy way to see this effect. You will notice that even when most of Falcon's body is on the right side of a character, if his knee hitbox comes out over top of the left side of the opponent's body, they will be sent right.

Only ground moves can clank. As far as I know they aren't determined by port priority. I see nair trades in Falcon dittos all the time. I think whether ground moves out prioritize each other or whether they clank is entirely based on %, but I can't say for sure.

 

[VoiD-]

Ah ok, thanks. And if you hit with the front half of one box and the back of another (or both sides of one), it hits forward?

 

[Bones0]

The direction your sent is determined by the center of the hitbox vs. the location of their hurtbox (I believe there is a specific thing called a "bone"? for each char's hurtbox that is actually determines the "center"). If the center of the hitbox is left of the bone, they go right, and vice versa. There's no way for only the left side of your hitbox to hit the left side of their hurtbox. It would just be overlapped with the hurtbox, and the direction you're sent is still determined by the center vs. bone thing.

 

[VoiD-]

That makes sense. What if you get hit by two different hitboxes from the same attack that come out at the same time? Like one hitbox hits you on the left, the other on the right (so you're on the front of one and the back of the other).

 

[john!]

simple question: what happens if you input a move after you hit x/y on the ground, but before you leave the ground? i know that grabs will come out (hence jump-canceled grabs) and i think b moves will also come out (hence multishines) as well as usmashes (hence running usmash), but what happens if i try to jab, dsmash, etc? i'm fairly sure i can't do these things when i jump out of shield. which moves work and which don't?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

there are 3 things that can cancel jumpsquat. Upsmash, Upb, Grab. Nothing else causes your character to do anything.

Shines do not cancel jumpsquat, they must be timed for the first aerial frame (same as an airdodge in a wavedash)

 

[Strong Badam]

That makes sense. What if you get hit by two different hitboxes from the same attack that come out at the same time? Like one hitbox hits you on the left, the other on the right (so you're on the front of one and the back of the other).

The hitbox with the lowest hitbox ID in that move's subaction coding will be used.

 

[_eternal]

Wait, so why do doubleshines work if you're already airborne?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wait, so why do doubleshines work if you're already airborne?

Fox:

jump - 0
jump - 1
jump - 2
shine- 0
shine- 1
shine- 2
shine- 3
shine- 4 (land on the ground this frame)
jump - 0
jump - 1
jump - 2
shine- 0
shine- 1
shine- 2
shine- 3
shine- 4 (land on the ground this frame)

etc...

 

[Bones0]

Wait, so why do doubleshines work if you're already airborne?

Doubleshines ONLY work when you're airborne. You have to shine on the first airborne frame. So Fox has 3 frames of jumpsquat and Falco has 5, so you need to shine on the 4th and 6th frames respectively in order for your shine to be low enough to land back on the ground. This is why it's super easy to multishine on rising PS transformations or rising DK64 platforms.

 

[VoiD-]

Thanks to everyone who helped me <3