Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[Pi]

i don't have a link but i do think there is a thread about it

but iirc the reason behind it was that mute city gave a significant advantage too much so to puff/peach/(samus?lol), and pokefloats only seemed to be being used to run away and shoot lasers

but moreso than that, they needed a certain # of stages for stage striking

nvm neutrals yea..

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

well i understand the pokefloats argument. i disagree with the mute city one atm (it might be b/c i play peach lol). but the stage striking thing makes no sense since u only stage strike neutral stages

edit: i also forgot to ask about jungle japes

 

[Chexr]

Fascinating. I've been playing Melee competitively since 2005 and I've seen this happen a couple of times with Fox, but I could never for the life of me figure out what triggers it.

Anyhow, fooling around in Action Replay to see the FD's real surfaces and having free reign with the camera, I noticed the problem. Samus and Falcon have long enough arms that when they let go of the edge at Final Destination, their bodies start freefalling from below the edge wall instead of next to it - there's no surface to wallkick. But if you take them to a stage like Fourside, where the edge wall continues downwards indefinitely, both of them can Doraki just fine.

I was able to Doraki with Falcon just fine in Fourside - I'm not sure how you're getting this fake Doraki that doesn't restore your jump. Also, apparently Captain Falcon is so awesome that he can actually Doraki Jump regardless of whether he latched on at the peak of his jump - I've been able to get him to Doraki in Fourside simply by hugging the edge while falling from above. It's probably because his ledgegrabbing box is positioned unusually high (it starts from his helmet up) while he's jumping, and being so tall, his body makes good contact with the side of the stage before he grabs the edge.

Falco doesn't seem to be able to Doraki at all, even in Fourside, which is baffling, because the height at which he lets go of the edge, and his double jump animations, are practically identical to Fox's.

everything i mentioned was done on FD and FD only. try doing it with falcon there... we all know falcon can do it on stages like fourside and greens greens just fine.

-tempest

 

[Doval]

Played around with Falcon on FD some more. You're right, you basically let go of the edge and double jump the next frame while still holding away. He'll wallkick on his way up. You have to double jump the first frame after you let go (the first frame possible) so that he won't be too far away from the edge by the time he rises. Doesn't work with Samus, probably because her air mobility is higher.

 

[KAOSTAR]

falco can doraki on the rock floating in kongos waterfall

with persevered jump. they all can

 

[Pi]

well i understand the pokefloats argument. i disagree with the mute city one atm (it might be b/c i play peach lol). but the stage striking thing makes no sense since u only stage strike neutral stages

edit: i also forgot to ask about jungle japes

yea my bad, stage striking had nothing to do w/ it

they just banned it because they felt it fit enough of camping/giving one character too much

you can still use them in your tournaments, it's just the MBR's stance on things
and i mean, look at the tier list, or even the fact that we have a tier list constructed the way it is

they just released a reccomended ruleset so people would stop asking, you don't have to abide by it by any means, i have jungle japes legal in my tournies, and pokefloats, no mute & corneria though

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ yea i know the final say goes to the TO's but i just want to see the argument against these stages. when i first started playing melee these stages were tourney legal and i was just wondering why they no longer are, i dont plan on trying to argue them back into use or anything but still i really just want to know why.

 

[Doval]

falco can doraki on the rock floating in kongos waterfall

Huh. You're right. That rock has a strange shape though. It's kind of diamond-shaped. Falco can only get the Doraki off if he rubs up against the top side of its walls.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

It's probably because the rock protrudes outwards or is sloped. It is easier to be touching the wall for longer than a structure that goes straight down.

 

[linkoninja]

How exactly has the meta-game improved over the past 2 years or so since Ken's time. I was watching some old videos and things don't seem that different. I know Spacies are a lot more technical (I think from watching matches such as PC vs Ken) and Puff became a monster. How has the meta-game evolved though? Is it all from a psychological standpoint or are there some new techs since that time

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

People are more consistent and punishes are significantly better. For example, in 2006 it might be common to do a 2 or 3 hit combo then reset to neutral and fish for another first hit, while now adays people can generally stretch the combos extremely far and generally always leave themselves in favorable positioning so they have advantage instead of resetting to neutral. Of course the top level in 2006 had these elements but it is quite a bit more refined. There is also the idea that the game has been played a bunch more so the movement and spacing games have become very refined as well.

 

[MTKO]

What exactly is a Doraki and how is it performed?

 

[TemPesT-]

well lets inform them...

if you double jump so that at the peak of your jump with certain characters (mostly anyone who can wall jump) on FD, and then tap/mash away from the edge, your character will do a wall jump, and save their double jump..

captain falcon is kind of an exception, he MIGHT be able to Doraki, as i think i have done it on accident a few times, but idk how to consistently. He's an exception however, because he can mash away and hit jump at the same time, and get a pseudo Doraki jump thing, but does not preserve his double jump when he does it.

The characters I CAN do Doraki's with...

Fox, Mario, Pichu, Young Link, Falcon (pseudo way).

but i CAN'T do it with Falco, Samus, or Falcon (the way to preserve his jump).

Is there a reason some characters can't do it? Is there a secret to falcons, and does it relate to a reverse upb (i was told thats the only way to even come close to a "sweet spot" which i think is what is needed for a true Doraki)?

i just wanna know if its impossible for falco to do? and yes i saw Kaostar(ithink?) say you can on that stupid DK waterfall stage, but i meant on FD... which is basically the only stage i think i CAN doraki off of in tourney.

 

[Strong Badam]

What exactly is a Doraki and how is it performed?

http://www.google.com/search?source...N&hl=en&tab=wv&bav=on.2,or.&fp=7bb6d9c3d7caef

 

[Pi]

How exactly has the meta-game improved over the past 2 years or so since Ken's time. I was watching some old videos and things don't seem that different. I know Spacies are a lot more technical (I think from watching matches such as PC vs Ken) and Puff became a monster. How has the meta-game evolved though? Is it all from a psychological standpoint or are there some new techs since that time

people know when & how to punish now

if a marth Fsmashes your shield now, they get hurt

if they try to double fair your shield now, they get hurt

applies to more chars than marth, but **** marth and that BS

 

[MTKO]

http://www.google.com/search?source...N&hl=en&tab=wv&bav=on.2,or.&fp=7bb6d9c3d7caef

Thanks, I think I'll try that out tomorrow when I get a chance.

 

[TheGoat]

how do you shine -wavedash-grab marth? I can't do it since he slides to far but I've seen pros doing it a lot.

 

[L__]

run after your wd

 

[Marth307]

Whats more useful skill shffl or wd?

 

[KAOSTAR]

how do you shine -wavedash-grab marth? I can't do it since he slides to far but I've seen pros doing it a lot.

wavedash farther aka pretty much a perfect WD, then continue to hold forward and u dont even have to jc grab.

 

[L__]

Whats more useful skill shffl or wd?

depends on how you use either

but I think shffl is niftier

 

[Pi]

Whats more useful skill shffl or wd?

depends on your character

with fox/falco/falcon shffl is probably more important

with samus/sheik/luigi/ganon WD is probably more important

 

[Biglard]

Question out of curiosity:

In order to do a short hop with Fox/Sheik/Samus/Pikachu and the others, do I have to press the X/Y button less than 1/30 seconds or less than 1/60 seconds?

 

[john!]

1/30 seconds if not more. 1/60 is one frame, which is way too short.

 

[Pi]

Question out of curiosity:

In order to do a short hop with Fox/Sheik/Samus/Pikachu and the others, do I have to press the X/Y button less than 1/30 seconds or less than 1/60 seconds?

in order to perform a shortop, you need have released the jump button the frame before you go airborne.

fox and samus are airborne on frame 4, so you need to have pressed and released the jump button before frame 3, which is 1/20th of a second

4 frames - Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Pichu / Pikachu / Samus / Sheik

5 frames - Captain Falcon / Dr. Mario / Luigi / Mario / Marth / Mr. Game & Watch / Ness / Young Link

6 frames - DK / Falco / Jigglypuff / Mewtwo / Peach / Roy / Yoshi

7 frames - Ganondorf / Link / Zelda

9 frames - Bowser

 

[Biglard]

I thought I had read somewhere that the jump button had to be released at least 2 frames before leaving the ground, that's what caused my confusion.

Anyway, thanks a lot!

 

[Bones0]

Does the c-stick contribute to button-mashing out of grabs?

From M2K's Thread:

Also, here is a general list of what affects escaping a grab by how much.

-----Press A, B, L, R, X, Y, or Z - 6 frames is reduced from the time you'd be held in a grab.

-----Press The Analog stick in 1 of the 4 cardinal directions(angles don't count) - 6 frames is reduced from the time you're held in a grab (24 frames is reduced after 1 complete rotation of the analog stick, so 2 and 1/2 rotations reduces the time by 1 second).

 

[Pi]

Does the c-stick contribute to button-mashing out of grabs?

From M2K's Thread:

i'm like 90% sure it doesnt because then ideally you would just rotate the cstick and the control stick to break out

or if it does, then it has to be reset to neutral to count, in which case you're better off just button sliding over abxy

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, figured. Rotating both sticks and mashing L and R was my plan, lol.

 

[L__]

if you're zhu or pp

[or anyone that can dashdance in another galaxy]

flicking the control stick left and right would be so good

 

[AceDudeyeah]

It doesn't have to hit the edge of the octagon that surrounds the stick? It can just tilt a little bit that way and register towards grab break-out?

 

[Oskar]

I have a question regarding hitlag.. If I hit someone with an aerial and then input a fastfall while my character is still in hitlag, does the ff register or not?

In case what I'm asking isn't completely clear, let's say I'm playing as Falco and Dair my opponent then tap down on the control stick while my character is still frozen in hitlag. Assuming I'm at a point in my jump where I'd normally be able to input a fastfall, will the fastfall get 'buffered', so to speak, and start on the first frame after hitlag wears off?

This has bugging me for a while now, and I would really appreciate if anyone could clarify for me.

 

[KAOSTAR]

no it doesnt. During hitlag u all parties who are involved whether it be the attack, or somebody in shield...aka if they are in shield stun are frozen in place.

U cannot DI or input anything until the last frame of hitstop because it will take place on the next frame aka the 1st frame when you are not in hitstop.

 

[Kanelol]

i can't tell you how many times i've died from thinking an input went through during hitlag, when it actually didn't

 

[Lovage]

hey does anyone know if a lv.1 CPU nana will act the same as a human controller nana? i mostly mean the way a human controlled nana jumps after being hit off the stage is pretty predictable, and it could be really useful to practice against that at home so you can **** her everytime you knock her off.

can anyone test if they behave the same for such things?

 

[mers]

hey does anyone know if a lv.1 CPU nana will act the same as a human controller nana? i mostly mean the way a human controlled nana jumps after being hit off the stage is pretty predictable, and it could be really useful to practice against that at home so you can **** her everytime you knock her off.

can anyone test if they behave the same for such things?

I always assumed that CPU Nana had the same programming as level 9, because anything else would be very silly. I don't know for sure though.

Nana always jumps when she falls to stage level though (except it is sometimes platform level on certain stages like Yoshi's), so it's pretty easy to remember. She also never techs, and obviously cannot shield when she's separated from Popo.

The only other thing I can think of is that she won't up-B or over-B when she's in tumble. She will jump out of tumble at the aforementioned heights, which I'm pretty sure is the only thing that will get her out.

 

[KAOSTAR]

hey does anyone know if a lv.1 CPU nana will act the same as a human controller nana? i mostly mean the way a human controlled nana jumps after being hit off the stage is pretty predictable, and it could be really useful to practice against that at home so you can **** her everytime you knock her off.

can anyone test if they behave the same for such things?

NAna will act the same., but she doesnt have influence from the player obv. Im not 100% sure on the lvl that is closest to a human. judging from the relatively low attack rate tho...its probably 2-3.

If you use AR, you will find there are many more cpu "types" than the "standard" @lvl 1-9.

"Nana" is a separate cpu type, as are adventure mode link, samus(just spams down B Lmao), ally, zelda, among others. There are also other cpu types such as defensive which in falco's case he low key camps LMAO. runs away. fires lasers, and counters your approach.


ITs actually refreshing to fight against lmao. One of the things I saw that was AMAZING was on one of hte modes the cpus actually RAN lol.

But anyway, its possible to fight Nana alone using AR. I know that solo Nana is diff than the Nana cpu type tho, meaning u cant just AR and fight nana as you would say gigabowser. Nana would just be sopopo.


My suggestion....either use AR. Or fight an unmanned human controlled Nana while ignoring Popo. Thats for sure the same.

 

[Incronaut]

Why do higher level players do a from of dash dance where they initially run away from the opponent and then immediately turn around and go for the approach... are they doing this habitually? or is there a special point to it?

i know it helps with spacing but are players actually aware of how it's helpful in every situation or do they just tend to do it because its a habit or it never hurts to? also, does the timing of running away first throw opponents off?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

running away puts more distance between you and your opponent. This leaves all your options available while not being threatened by your opponent. If you dash towards them first, they could easily stand in place and do a move and hit you.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

Whats the name of the combo video with the coloring guy that plays on hyrule?