Official European Brawl Tier List v1.0 (November 2011)

Seagull Joe

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#81
Leon had better results than the Wolfs with Peach... although he did use Marth too a bit, but mostly against MKs. He still would've outplaced any Wolfs...

Now there are other good Peaches like Yami and reaper (and maybe others) that also bring solid results with her...

I can't talk for everyone but I personally have put Wolf somewhat low mostly because of his bad MUs. It's always difficult to judge good characters with a few awful MUs, but they were my reason to put him kinda low. :/ If it would just be one he would've been higher, but he has several.. ~_~
:wolf: has 3 counters technically. :peach: has more -2's then that. And she is -3 with :metaknight:. If Leon has to use :marth: for :metaknight: then why would that help her position at all? :wolf: handles :metaknight: extremely well.

That's such random bias. Link me results of Semifer and show me where a :peach: outplaced him going ALL :peach: because Semifer almost always goes all :wolf: except when he runs into :dedede: so by the same logic :wolf: would be put high.

:018:
 

Ghostbone

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#84
Some people actually did include gaps in their note, they all looked different. It's not something you can abritrarily decide after you have the votes and it's not something people will agree on either, so sticking to the data is superior imo.

Except the data on their rankings has nothing to do with how good they are, past their position.

If you had character A voted 37th by everyone, and character B voted 38thby everyone, that in no way says that character A and B are of similar ability and that they should be in the same tier, A could be miles ahead of B (despite them both being terrible).

Elaborating, there isn't the same gap between the character ranked 1 and the character ranked 2, and the character ranked 23 and the character ranked 24.
You can look at the data and say, Diddy is 2.5 "points" ahead of Snake, or something, but that's meaningless, it has nothing to do with how much better Diddy is than Snake.
People could consider Diddy, Marth and Snake almost equal, Diddy just slightly edges out the other two, doesn't make him worthy of being in another tier.

/tier positions have to be arbitrarily decided, you can't use the data from the rankings to determine them, they're completely different.
 

Slhoka

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#86
I honestly feel bad for Marc and Shloka putting in so much effort just to have their product met with irrelevant criticism.
You know, it happens almost all the time when you post something that isn't 100% subjective : those who aren't happy make much more noise than those who like it.
So it doesn't matter that much, escially for me who doesn't really care about the result.

I feel worse about everyone misspelling Slhoka's name. =P
When name searching, I also search the misspellings :grin:

I've found the Diddy icon Slhoka mentioned earlier, have you?
No you didn't, I'm the one who told you :redface:

Gardex : I don't have much time to elaborate an answer right now, and I disagree, but you have an interesting point there
 

Gardex

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#87
Except the data on their rankings has nothing to do with how good they are, past their position.

If you had character A voted 37th by everyone, and character B voted 38thby everyone, that in no way says that character A and B are of similar ability and that they should be in the same tier, A could be miles ahead of B (despite them both being terrible).

Elaborating, there isn't the same gap between the character ranked 1 and the character ranked 2, and the character ranked 23 and the character ranked 24.
You can look at the data and say, Diddy is 2.5 "points" ahead of Snake, or something, but that's meaningless, it has nothing to do with how much better Diddy is than Snake.
People could consider Diddy, Marth and Snake almost equal, Diddy just slightly edges out the other two, doesn't make him worthy of being in another tier.

/tier positions have to be arbitrarily decided, you can't use the data from the rankings to determine them, they're completely different.
What I was trying to say all along
 

MechaWave

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#92
Lucario isn't as high as he should be in the US tier list, just sayin'. Mid-tier? No.

Why people think Wolf is so good is beyond me. In the US there are only like 2 people that consistently get good placements with him.
 

~ Gheb ~

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#94
Jens stfu you're ugly and nobody likes you.

Regarding GW I'm actually surprised he ended up that high considering the low ratings Lp and I gave him. In fact, I considered putting him lower but I think his MK match-up is too good compared to the other characters around him. Most other placings aren't surprising to me anyways ... they're just really stupid and tbh I think a lot of people had very different standards of judging a character. French voters seem to have gone almost completely by their domestic result, I don't see why else so many of them have Marth as 2nd. I mean it's kind of obvious that he is not the 2nd best character in the game but result-wise he is.

:059:
 

-LzR-

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#96
Noo Jigglypuff D:
Well yeah she sucks that bad it's fine.
It's awesome how EU has their own tierlist now and everything.

Too bad we are not part of it D:
 

~ Gheb ~

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#97
France had Marth in 3rd place overall.

Snake 2nd.

How is that going completely by the domestic result?
That's the average score.
Marth has 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 5 which is an average of 3.16
Snake has 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 which is an average of 3

Snake's average is better by 1/6th but 3 out of 6 panelists [the majority] have voted Marth to be 2nd best character, which reflects domestic results nicely.

:059:
 

Gardex

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#98
Average is still an average. Snake got a higher placement than Marth by France.

We are going after numbers here, aren't we? That's what you guys have been telling me all the time.

I don't think I've even seen a Snake in France (except for when leon tried him out), even him getting third on their list(which he didn't) should still make your theory go poof.

God forbid that they actually think that Marth is worthy of 2nd place.
 

Red Arremer

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#99
So, some European players felt that they should do exactly the same thing as the BBR, taking international (not exclusively European) tournament results into account.

Or, in short: Why not do the tier list again, just with different people eligible to vote, and who all happen to sit on the same continent?

No offense to Slhoka (he just compiled the data after all), but this project, to me, makes absolutely no sense at all.
 

Orion*

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/tier positions have to be arbitrarily decided, you can't use the data from the rankings to determine them, they're completely different.
If you didnt argue both sides of subjectivity when it suited your needs I would care tho

Too bad we are not part of it D:
you dont travel // aren't a part of anything
and you have MK banned which is a completely different metagame altogether.

it wouldn't make sense for you to be
 

Orion*

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So, some European players felt that they should do exactly the same thing as the BBR, taking international (not exclusively European) tournament results into account.

Or, in short: Why not do the tier list again, just with different people eligible to vote, and who all happen to sit on the same continent?

No offense to Slhoka (he just compiled the data after all), but this project, to me, makes absolutely no sense at all.
I don't see why it has to be taken so offensively though. Overall people just put their opinions together and made a list, there's nothing wrong with that.

**** I don't you posting when people make lists in the tier list thread. EU doesnt do to many projects like this so it seemed like a fun idea which is why most of the people wanted to do it I think.
 

Red Arremer

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I'm not taking it offensively, I just don't really see a reason for this, unless it is only putting Europe into the perspective, and disregards other tournament results.
 

Orion*

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I'm not taking it offensively, I just don't really see a reason for this, unless it is only putting Europe into the perspective, and disregards other tournament results.
Tier lists aren't made only from tournament results though, if you would like to see something like that i guess character ranking data would be your best bet
 

Red Arremer

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I am aware of that, but I've seen a few of the people who voted that they were taking into account results from other regions but Europe.

My point is - either don't take into account any tournament results at all, or only take European ones into account, otherwise it's not a European tier list, but a tier list made by a few people who happen to live in Europe.
 

Marc

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:wolf: has 3 counters technically. :peach: has more -2's then that. And she is -3 with :metaknight:. If Leon has to use :marth: for :metaknight: then why would that help her position at all? :wolf: handles :metaknight: extremely well.

That's such random bias. Link me results of Semifer and show me where a :peach: outplaced him going ALL :peach: because Semifer almost always goes all :wolf: except when he runs into :dedede: so by the same logic :wolf: would be put high.

:018:
I agree Wolf should have been higher, he's overall not much worse than Fox. However, a bad matchup with Dedede in some ways hurts a lot more, considering he's not that hard to pick up and more common than characters like Pikachu, ICs and Sheik are in Europe. That still doesn't really explain why Peach was put over Wolf, but she has results here on pretty much the same level or better (admittedly with secondaries). I was considering putting Wolf in the same tier though, but the gap didn't justify it.

How often do you guys plan on making new tier lists?
It's in the OP: we're not sure. It's a nice activity influx, but also a little stressful to put together because you have to actively gather people from all over Europe, who are often not on Smashboards. Then different countries also bring different mentalities and egos to the table and I think I can speak for me and Slhoka both when we consider the Melee crowd overall more agreeable.

Except the data on their rankings has nothing to do with how good they are, past their position.
It's still the most statistically sound way to place tier gaps and it has been done this way since forever. It also actually does imply a lot when people heavily agree on character placement and I think you fail to see that there are labels as well as tiers. MK, Diddy and Snake + friends are all top tiers, we simply did justice to the votes by differentiating them where the votes did. Based on results in Europe MK and Diddy would not warrant their own tier, but if MK is clearly 1, Diddy is voted 2.5 or something and then the next characters starts at 4.x, there are some very clear gaps that shouldn't be ignored. You can probably divide all characters in three behemoth tiers instead, but that's a loss of information we didn't find desirable.
 

Gardex

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If Diddy is in his own tier, then Wolf and Pika should too.

Go ahead, disagree with me.
Either show that you guys just want to fight with me, or can at least see some logic here.
 

Marc

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Depending on how large the gap has to be you can have several characters in their own tier. It just makes more sense to flesh it out more at the top, but you could make a case for a few more single character tiers inbetween if you'd so desire. I see your reasoning to a certain extent, but mostly because standard deviations for many characters were high and there are big gaps across the board. In the end we simply applied the same logic we've done for years now, so it's not so much a fight as you imposing your opinion on us.

EDIT: If your point is that it's always a little subjective, then yes, but it is in no way as arbitrary as asking individual people. Especially with these results you can take them several directions, which is why we made it a point to include the raw data. The end result is very different from my own personal opinion also, if that makes you feel any better.
 

Orion*

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either don't take into account any tournament results at all, or only take European ones into account, otherwise it's not a European tier list, but a tier list made by a few people who happen to live in Europe.
And the BBR tier list is just a list made from people in the BBR.
And the japanese one is made from made from people in japan.
And character rankings data is character ranking data.

I don't see your point I'm sorry lol
 

Seagull Joe

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France had Marth in 3rd place overall.

Snake 2nd.

How is that going completely by the domestic result?
And what about :diddy:...? :marth: is definitely NOT better then :diddy:. :diddy: has only 2 possibly bad matchups with :snake: and :metaknight:. :snake: is countered by :olimar:, :metaknight:, :dedede:, and :marth:. :marth: is countered by :diddy: himself, :popo:, :dedede:, and :metaknight:.
Tier lists aren't made only from tournament results though, if you would like to see something like that i guess character ranking data would be your best bet
Can I see results of :wolf: and :peach: at least?
I agree Wolf should have been higher, he's overall not much worse than Fox. However, a bad matchup with Dedede in some ways hurts a lot more, considering he's not that hard to pick up and more common than characters like Pikachu, ICs and Sheik are in Europe. That still doesn't really explain why Peach was put over Wolf, but she has results here on pretty much the same level or better (admittedly with secondaries). I was considering putting Wolf in the same tier though, but the gap didn't justify it.
I bolded why that doesn't mean :peach: should be put higher...
If Diddy is in his own tier, then Wolf and Pika should too.

Go ahead, disagree with me.
Either show that you guys just want to fight with me, or can at least see some logic here.
Yes, I thoroughly agree with this statement. :pikachu2: is much better then :dedede:, :zerosuitsamus:, and :lucario:...:wolf: is better then the characters in his own tier. I mean, I'd at least think :wolf: should be in the same tier as :peach:, :fox:, :gw:, and :toonlink:, but he's not on this list. :wolf: is even +1 vs :toonlink:/:peach: and even with both :fox: and :gw:. Sure that's just matchup-wise, but if his results are also similar to :peach:s then why would he be a tier lower?

I'm pretty sure :wolf: is better then :pit:, :dk2:, :kirby2:, and :rob:...
 

Flayl

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Am I the only one confused why Seagull is putting so much effort into a tier list that doesn't affect him in any way?

I mean, he's already a BBR member, you can go argue that stuff over there >_>
 

Laem

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And what about :diddy:...? :marth: is definitely NOT better then :diddy:. :diddy: has only 2 possibly bad matchups with :snake: and :metaknight:. :snake: is countered by :olimar:, :metaknight:, :dedede:, and :marth:. :marth: is countered by :diddy: himself, :popo:, :dedede:, and :metaknight:.
Dem opinions tho.

I'm not following why you're so bothered with wolf & peach either. General EU consensus is apparently that peach > wolf when looking at both placings and character attributes/MU's. That's it. Now stop telling us your opinion on matchups XD
 

Lord Chair

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Yo Seagull.

Why you here tho.

Like, do you expect every single member to post the reasoning behind every single character placement he did? Do you expect us to post 1600+ walls of text on how this tier list was made?

I also don't understand Spadefox' opinions in here and in this case I'm just going to be one hell of a mother****er. You live in Europe and have been a BBR member for as long as I remember. You don't play the game, you aren't part of the European metagame, your opinions are always flawed and I can't help but wonder if you live in Europe at all. You come in here with a lot of **** about how this list is wrong or bad but you aren't actually making any point. Why are you here?

Gardex and the like I can understand, no hatred towards you guys.
 

Orion*

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Orion orion orion, kiddo. PLEASE think before you post. Also, *your, *too.
Woops. I forgot the 12 year old has the right to call anyone a kiddo. You're like a skinny slightly blacker gluttony that actually travels but then gets salty when he loses with metaknight son :awesome:

oh and
/herp derp spelling mistakes
Aww, I was hoping for something less "conventional". This tier list looks just like the american one to me.
Like. imo it's pretty clear for the most part who the top and bottom of this game are lmao, bottom half of high to mids can always be debated but it barely matters anyway.
 

Meru.

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lol Seagull and his anti-Peach sentiments. Europe finds Peach a better character yet you are still trying to convince everyone that she shouldn't be higher on a European tier list by telling us Wolf's match-ups, with match-up ratios that you and your American ( that includes: not European) friends have decided.

You may not have seen a European Peach with skills equal to that of Semifer or any other Wolf, but that does not mean there any. Leon, Reaper and Yami are all capable enough to represent Peach as a good character. Despite Leon uses her as a secondary and despite his Peach isn't in his prime anymore, he still manages to do well with her in and outside of tourney. Reaper mostly plays Peach, alongside other characters, but it appears that he uses multiple characters because he enjoys playing so, not (necessarily) because he believes that Peach is unviable. And then we have Yami, who as far as I know has not been entering many big tourneys, but nonetheless he fares well in French tourneys and in his videos he often displays a capable Peach.

If you do not believe my words, then feel free to take a look at the tournament results thread. Please call an ambulance in case Peach's results gives you a heart attack.

This tier list looks just like the american one to me.
Indeed it does, which is why I wonder why so many people bothered by this list, do (for the most part) accept the US tier list. The lists are nearly identical!


:052:
 
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