1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

Official European Brawl Tier List v1.0 (November 2011)

Discussion in 'Europe' started by Marc, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    Below you will find the first European Brawl tier list. Considering differences in metagame and mentality, a collective of Europeans felt it was worth it to try our hand at our own tier list. It is always difficult to get the input from people all over Europe, so it remains to be seen whether this will be done again, and if so, how frequently.

    Top
    SS: Meta Knight
    S: Diddy Kong
    A: Snake, Marth, Falco, Ice Climbers, Wario, Captain Olimar

    High
    B: Pikachu, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Lucario
    C: Mr. Game & Watch, Fox, Toon Link, Peach

    Mid
    D: Wolf, Pit, R.O.B., Donkey Kong, Kirby
    E: Sheilda, Ike, Sheik, Sonic
    F: Luigi, Ness, Yoshi, Pokémon Trainer

    Low
    G: Lucas, Mario, Bowser, Samus, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Link, Jigglypuff

    Bottom
    H: Ganondorf



    [​IMG]

    Procedure
    The best players and theorists from a variety of European countries were asked to vote. We tried to reach out to players to the extent that they could be reached and agreed to participate. The 39 individual votes and everything else you could possibly want to know can be found here:
    http://m2eila.fr/smash/tier_lists/2011_European_Brawl_Tier_List/

    Major thanks to Slhoka for setting up the data collection and analysis, as well as gathering the French votes!

    It was hard to define statistically sound tier gaps and still have a somewhat elegant result. Separating tiers is usually done through differences in character averages. A common rule of thumb is to place a gap where the difference exceeds either 1 or 1.5, but in this case a consistent application would lead to several single character tiers and we had to be a little more pragmatic. Single character tiers were all resolved by adding characters to the closest group, with the exception of the very top and bottom tier. This is because we felt that the top tier needs to be more clearly defined, while the gap between the second worst and worst character was the largest in the entire list at 2.41. The raw data is available in the link provided earlier, in case you want to check it and do some manipulations of your own.

    Notes
    • Unlike with Melee, there are no differences between PAL and NTSC copies of the game. While individual votes sometimes varied a lot, the final result is not too different from the most recent BBR tier list. The most notable differences between common European rulesets and Unity are found in the stage list: for this project we assumed a list of 10 stages with Brinstar, Pokémon Stadium 2 and Rainbow Cruise banned.
    • While low tier events still have the same 9 characters, mid tier events would lose Fox and Peach under this tier list. A consideration could be made to add the C tier, but in my humble opinion mid tier events have always been dominated by the best characters available and this might turn out refreshing. Either way the tier list was not made with side events in mind.
    • Other than for MK, Diddy and Ganondorf, standard deviations for most characters were rather high. Lucario takes the cake at an SD of 3.71, with his highest ranking being 7th and his lowest 24th. Overall the results suggest a metagame that is still changing a lot, while we can also see that some characters lack representation in the Euro zone. Considering a relatively high amount of characters are viable from this game’s large cast, it is likely that every competitive region has some otherwise viable characters that are developed less than they could or should be.
    • A few people made a mistake with the Sheilda entry, which by definition can never be lower than the best of the two characters it consists of (Sheik). Because her position was overall solidified and it wouldn’t really matter, those votes had her position replaced with her default position right above Sheik, which she actually ended up very close to in the final tier list. The entry’s worth remains questionable.
     
  2. Laem

    Laem
    Expand Collapse
    Brawl Backroom Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,292
    Location:
    Nightrain
    Satisfactory.
     
  3. Meru.

    Meru.
    Expand Collapse
    Moderator

    • Moderator
    • Wii U Backroomer
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    3,783
    Location:
    The Netherlands, sometimes Japan
    3DS FC:
    0963-1622-2801
    NNID:
    Merudi
    Peachy has expressed her gratitude to the panelists and their supporters!!

    You will all be rewarded generously in heaven!!

    P.S. Fox likes you too.


    :peach:
     
  4. ~ Gheb ~

    ~ Gheb ~
    Expand Collapse
    Life is just a party

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,919
    Location:
    Europe

    I think it's pretty bad tbh =/

    :059:
     
  5. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    No ****, you were pretty much an outlier vote. :p
     
  6. Flayl

    Flayl
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    5,520
    Location:
    Portugal
    Wow looks like I was wrong, most Europeans think Link is worse than I thought.

    Marth is pretty much where I expected him to be and the rest looks pretty agreeable.

    edit: Now that I think about I'm curious why Lucas isn't above PT.

    edit2: I'm surprised Orion voted Bowser to be above Jigglypuff. Where the Jigglypuff hype at?
     
  7. Cassio

    Cassio
    Expand Collapse
    Brawl Backroom Member

    • Brawl Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,185

    Really like this list.

    Actually thought pika would be lower and Marth at thrid, are you still taking attributes into account even if they perform better/not as well there?
     
  8. Jimmyfosho

    Jimmyfosho
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    5,317
    Location:
    Being sarcastic and pointing out the obvious.
    why does diddy kong get his own "s tier" ? just wondering
     
  9. ~ Gheb ~

    ~ Gheb ~
    Expand Collapse
    Life is just a party

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,919
    Location:
    Europe

    I know but I still don't see how GW, Lucario and Peach ended up that high. Like, that's kind of ridiculous tbh...

    Edit: Falcon and Luigi too wtf are they doing up there -.-

    That's up to individual panelists. When I took results into account [which I did a lot] I would do so on a world-wide basis. I don't think our incompetence as players justifies Marth as top 5 character.

    Average rating of Diddy is kinda exactly between MK and A-Tier.

    :059:
     
  10. Steam

    Steam
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2009
    Messages:
    6,321
    Location:
    Hell, Colorado

    Lucario should really be mid tier...

    also marth is too low prolly.
     
  11. Gardex

    Gardex
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,520
    Location:
    Gjøvik/Trondheim, Norway
    3DS FC:
    2707-1617-4394
    NNID:
    Gardex
    Just because people agree on Diddy being 2nd doesn't make him good enough to be worthy of his own tier.

    Is he seriously that much better than Snake, Falco, Marth and the crew? No.
    Hell, even putting MK in his own tier is kinda debatable in the current metagame.
     
  12. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    The gap between PT and Lucas was significant. I think that's fine, because Squirtle at the very least is a clear step above low/bottom tier.

    I think everyone weighed both overall attributes and performance. Personally I always try to look at not just Europe, but also the US and Japan. Note also that Snake/Marth/Falco are almost interchangeable and Pikachu is grouped with Dedede etc.

    There was a very clear gap between him and the characters after him, especially for the top tier context (which is supposedly more well-defined). Few people did not have Diddy at #2, or I guess #3.
     
  13. Flayl

    Flayl
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    5,520
    Location:
    Portugal
    Is the last page on the pdf the number of mains invited to vote? Who counts as the Bowser main?
     
  14. Gardex

    Gardex
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,520
    Location:
    Gjøvik/Trondheim, Norway
    3DS FC:
    2707-1617-4394
    NNID:
    Gardex
    I'd also like to point out that the "average" score for certain characters in Norway is really wrong. Chii and I gave Falco 2nd and 3rd,(although to be honest, I'm pretty sure I didn't give Falco 2nd or 3rd) yet the average was 4.
    This was repeated on most of the characters I checked out.

    Did I just read something wrong, or are the statistics here incorrect?

    Also wtf @ me giving Jiggz last place. I did certainly not.
     
  15. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    It was an automated survey, not much could have gone wrong on our part. I'll ask Slhoka to look into it though.

    Lucario and G&W are already lower here than they are on the NTSC tier list. Like, who else would you put over them?

    If it were less fleshed out I'd agree with MK and Diddy being grouped with the other top tiers (especially for Europe), but considering the votes that would be me imposing my opinion rather than respecting the statistics.

    Voters were asked to mark what characters they use in tournament (could be several).
     
  16. Gardex

    Gardex
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,520
    Location:
    Gjøvik/Trondheim, Norway
    3DS FC:
    2707-1617-4394
    NNID:
    Gardex
    Don't do everything by the numbers, it can give the wrong impression.

    Just ask yourself if Diddy truly is such a force to be reckoned with in Europe that he deserves his own tier.
    He isn't. Bump him down, not hard.

    And wow, there are a lot of weird results here, are you sure nothing is mixed up? I am 100% sure I put Ganon last.
     
  17. ~ Gheb ~

    ~ Gheb ~
    Expand Collapse
    Life is just a party

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,919
    Location:
    Europe

    Marc, it should be obvious when you look at my votes ^_^

    :059:
     
  18. M@v

    M@v
    Expand Collapse
    "Hakai."

    • Moderator
    • Premium
    • Wii U Backroomer
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    10,674
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I love this tier list. Only thing I don't agree with is marth above falco in a mk legal environment(can certainly see it in a mk banned one though). Regardless, I only think they should swap spots, so Falco 4th Marth 5th. Diddy in his own tier is questionable too, but his position is right. Otherwise, this list is amazing :)
     
  19. Slhoka

    Slhoka
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,710
    Location:
    Kourou, French Guiana

    I'll answer you soon about this problem.
     
  20. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    It's not meant to apply only to our metagame in a vacuum. I can't change the way people voted and I personally don't even disagree with it that much.

    It's being looked into.

    Fair enough. :p

    EDIT: M@V, the best Marths do well against MKs here and Marth's MK matchup is pretty much the same as Falco's (AKA a slight disadvantage).
     
  21. Flayl

    Flayl
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    5,520
    Location:
    Portugal
    So who said they use Bowser in tournament?
     
  22. Gardex

    Gardex
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,520
    Location:
    Gjøvik/Trondheim, Norway
    3DS FC:
    2707-1617-4394
    NNID:
    Gardex
    Alright, but still keep the *possibly* scewed results in mind, if things like Falco getting a lower score than he should on the Norwegian list happened to other countries as well, then it could very well propel Diddy way higher than he should've
     
  23. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    You'll get your answer in a bit. Note that this doesn't necessarily imply a main btw, just someone who also uses Bowser in tournament.

    Well, a large part of it is indeed that people agree more on MK/Diddy than the next few characters. Overall I don't think outlier votes had a big impact here.
     
  24. Laem

    Laem
    Expand Collapse
    Brawl Backroom Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,292
    Location:
    Nightrain
    This is a long shot, but i think Semifer. Now you go and stay loyal citizen! :D
     
  25. Flayl

    Flayl
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    5,520
    Location:
    Portugal
    You don't have to answer, personally I'm hoping the person will come forth himself so I can pester him about videos/tactics :D
     
  26. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    It was teluoborg (France), he mains Captain Falcon and Bowser.
     
  27. Slhoka

    Slhoka
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,710
    Location:
    Kourou, French Guiana

    It won't have such an impact.
    I'm pretty sure that the problem comes from me switching you list with someone else's.
     
  28. Steam

    Steam
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2009
    Messages:
    6,321
    Location:
    Hell, Colorado

    The difference is lucario (IDK about GW) actually places in NTSC but not in EU... Lucario barely exists in europe... so since he's medicore on paper... has no results... he should be close to 20th.
     
  29. Mr-R

    Mr-R
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,544
    This isn't based off of results in europe though but moreso the opinions of active top players
     
  30. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    ^This.

    It's not like the other characters in that area of the tier list place that much more/better in Europe also. I think for characters like Lucario we really do have to look at other metagames, but it's pretty telling for a high tier to drop 2 spots as opposed to the BBR tier list IMO.
     
  31. Steam

    Steam
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2009
    Messages:
    6,321
    Location:
    Hell, Colorado

    then it's not that much of an EU tier list if it isn't based off of EU results :I
     
  32. Gardex

    Gardex
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,520
    Location:
    Gjøvik/Trondheim, Norway
    3DS FC:
    2707-1617-4394
    NNID:
    Gardex
    I was looking at the Luxembourg list and had a good laugh:

    Luxembourg rankings:
    1. Meta-Knight
    2. Diddy Kong
    3. Marth
    4. Falco
    5. Olimar

    Invidual votes(since Lux only had 1 vote - by two people - it should be the same, right?)
    1. Metaknight
    2. Marth
    3. Diddy Kong
    4. Falco
    ....
    10. Olimar

    Not just Norway. Took a quick look at Finland, same thing seemed to go on there as well.
    If this isn't just a switch of scores, then this could seriously have changed the final list.
     
  33. Flayl

    Flayl
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    5,520
    Location:
    Portugal
    Pikachu doesn't exist in EU either, didn't stop him from being 9th. Like Mr. R said it's a collection of opinions which very likely include knowledge gained from other regions.
     
  34. Mr-R

    Mr-R
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,544
    how is it not a europe tier list when the people voting on it are from europe >_>
    just because we don't have any lucario players doesn't mean he should be lower on the tier list
     
  35. Laem

    Laem
    Expand Collapse
    Brawl Backroom Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,292
    Location:
    Nightrain
    /That what has been said.

    I personally weighed the two about equally, but I suspect it to be very much subjective just how they should be weighed against eachother. So this is just fine.
     
  36. Gardex

    Gardex
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,520
    Location:
    Gjøvik/Trondheim, Norway
    3DS FC:
    2707-1617-4394
    NNID:
    Gardex
    An average of noteworthy European players' opinions.... who should've taken tourney results, character potential in current metagame, etc.... into consideration.

    So it should technically be somewhat based off of results(among other factors).
     
  37. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,336
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    Slhoka has already found the errors there and is fixing them, but it has no impact on the overall list. He made a few mistakes with some tables, but this was added as information just now to give a more complete overview (and thus wasn't checked as thoroughly). Keep pointing it out though, it's important to have the side info be accurate as well.
     
  38. #HBC | ZoZo

    #HBC | ZoZo
    Expand Collapse
    Shocodoro Blagshidect

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2009
    Messages:
    9,786
    Location:
    Land of Nether

    Yeah this **** this **** im going back to Xonar tier list.
     
  39. Slhoka

    Slhoka
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,710
    Location:
    Kourou, French Guiana

    I can't stress this enough.
    To those who have voted : can you tell me if your list is accurate ? I've been handling a fairly massive amount of data (1600+ votes, excluding the other questions), so I'm likely to have left some mistakes.

    As for the countries' table, I saw the mistake : the tables are made automatically from the individual votes table, and for some reason, all the formulas moved from one cell. The result is that the Finnish table is made from the vote of Schwa and Jujux (first French, so next in the list). It means it has no impact on the global list.

    I'm fixing that right now.

    Also, apparently, your list in the individual votes table is Chiii's list. I'll try to see where your list is.
     
  40. Alphicans

    Alphicans
    Expand Collapse
    Brawl Backroom Member

    • Wii U Backroomer
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    9,321
    Location:
    Edmonton, AB
    Holy **** I saw luigi player voted GaW at 26th... Was he basing it off of european tournament results only or what?
     

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?