Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[mega4000]

I don't think it's official, but here's how I heard people want it

Round 1
Blind Pick Character
Blind Pick Custom
Stage Strike

Round 2+
Winner Bans Stages
Loser Picks Stage
Winner Picks Character
Loser Picks Character
Winner Choses Customs
Loser Choses Customs

This is what I want too.

 

[warriorman222]

hey you have the same opinion about Mii's as me ! Why does no one push Mii's for variable Moves in a non-custom environment? I hate the 1111 trend atm. It doesn't make any ens; it has no base of argument.

well Mii's are still 3 characters and you shouldn't give them more options then the other. That would be arbitrary.

and I still think Customs might ruin Smash 4 because it will split the community. In germany we don't intend using customs. I don't know what our neighbours think about this.
But a game can only really evove if we have a united ruleset (see Melee) imo, so this will probably devolve the game :/

You want to know what's arbritrary? Tenthing the Miis's sets for no reasons, instead of trying to fit as much as possible. Why? You're rendering a character unplayable for many when the only reasons others have that limit are logistical issues. Miis shouldn't be brought down by others in any ay.

It's not unfair for everyone else, it's unfair for them. If everyone was given a normal backpack, and 3 people were given backpacks that could expand to 10* the size, should those be taken away and replaced with normal backpacks when they want to use them? It's unfair to the lucky people. Like comeon, many Mii players have to switch mains simply because FG doesn't allow them, so they cannot fight other players in any way. Don't force them to be like all the other characters... When they don't have to. And when it's entirely beneficial for them, and not detrimental to anyone else.

About the Miis in non-custom, that's never going to happen because people will call it unfair, when it fact Miis are exempt of the probable reason said tourney bans customs: logistics. And if they're banning customs, the ywill do whatever it takes to have none of them, therefore any attempts art this will go nowhere.

 

[Ansou]

I don't think it's official, but here's how I heard people want it

Round 1
Blind Pick Character
Blind Pick Custom
Stage Strike

Round 2+
Winner Bans Stages
Loser Picks Stage
Winner Picks Character
Loser Picks Character
Winner Choses Customs
Loser Choses Customs

Yes, this is how it should be in my opinion. This way both players can have the optimal movesets for the matchup.

 

[jespoke]

I don't think it's official, but here's how I heard people want it

Round 1
Blind Pick Character
Blind Pick Custom
Stage Strike

Round 2+
Winner Bans Stages
Loser Picks Stage
Winner Picks Character
Loser Picks Character
Winner Choses Customs
Loser Choses Customs

This seems like the most sensible thing. The last thing we want is winners being forced to pick the most jack-of-all-trades character setup in the game just because anything else would have something that is a major pain for that particular set.

My 2 cents about the whole thing:
- Nobody should ever be locked into a custom set. It makes it never worth it to use any niche or matchup-focused sets ever, until game 5 (Or 3 in Bo3)
- The stage choosing system is still up for debate.
- I think we really need to discuss is how blind the Blind Pick Custom in round 1 should be. I feel, as you may have gathered, that you should never ever be made to pick a custom set without knowing the character you are picking it into as anything else invalidates every set but the best generalist.

 

[Tf4 | Lukas]

Hey! Love the idea of this project whole heartedly, but in the previous, proposal edition of this project the creator made the last two slots open to if a user had their own set immediately ready. Has this part of the project been scrapped and these are the only sets that will be allowed or do you think you'll take into consideration having two slots open for those that have their own sets?

 

[warriorman222]

Hey! Love the idea of this project whole heartedly, but in the previous, proposal edition of this project the creator made the last two slots open to if a user had their own set immediately ready. Has this part of the project been scrapped and these are the only sets that will be allowed or do you think you'll take into consideration having two slots open for those that have their own sets?

in EVO, they aren't allowing transfers, which gives us 2 more sets to work with. It's probably coming back after EVO.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

As mentioned above, this list is primarily for the purpose of having a full list for tournaments that won't allow transfers. That said, if your TO has no such issue there's no reason he or she could not choose to remove the last 2-3 sets (which are typically low priority/niche) in favor of having space for transfers.

 

[Ansou]

Hey! Love the idea of this project whole heartedly, but in the previous, proposal edition of this project the creator made the last two slots open to if a user had their own set immediately ready. Has this part of the project been scrapped and these are the only sets that will be allowed or do you think you'll take into consideration having two slots open for those that have their own sets?

Okay, here's the thing:
Some tournaments allow 3DS transfer while some don't.
Regardless of if a tournament allows 3DS transfer or not, all slots should initially be filled with movesets named something like EVO2312. For the tournaments that DO allow 3DS transfer, you can transfer a set to overwrite either slot 9 or 10, but then that set should be named something like 3213 (note that it contains no letters, only numbers), to separate it from the official sets. I don't know exactly how we handle 3DS transfer of Mii Fighters as transferring a Mii Fighter will mess up the sorting order of the Miis, but I guess that's not the biggest of deals anyway.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A bit curious as to why there are no Shiek sets with Gale at all? Paralyzing Needle got a slot and I don't remember ever seeing much discussion about these guys.

We lifted our sets from the Sheik discussion. Personally I believe that Gale deserved slot 10 and that Abyss is an awful, awful move, but there was considerably more support for Abyss than for Gale and in the end we were compelled to yield to the Sheik board. Either way, giving up Vanish, a move that is simultaneously a *really* good recovery move and one of Sheik's best kill moves, is a tough pill to swallow.

As per the paralyzing needle set, it is paired with Pisces since Paralyzing Needle -> Pisces is a kill combo that is generally more powerful than anything Sheik has normally. The sacrifice is pretty severe to bring this, but there may be match-ups it makes sense to just pump up Sheik's kill power.

To be real, I expect the top five sets for Sheik will represent the overwhelming majority of players.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I don't think it's official, but here's how I heard people want it

Round 1
Blind Pick Character
Blind Pick Custom
Stage Strike

Round 2+
Winner Bans Stages
Loser Picks Stage
Winner Picks Character
Loser Picks Character
Winner Choses Customs
Loser Choses Customs

This. As mentioned previously, this allows (1) the loser to always be able to counter-pick the winner's selection, while (2) allowing both players to optimize customs by match-up.

 

[rajwii64]

Man they only have one quick fire Bow set for link(3211) I wish they could add 3213 so it could have metor bombs. But I think it's to late got that

 

[Quickhero]

This is about the Google Docs sheet, but is there any way you can get permission to add some anonymous notes? There are a few moves with some special things needing to taken into consideration imo and I would want to know how I can get permission to do such a thing.

 

[DunnoBro]

I really think it should be stressed in big freakin red letters in the OP that when putting the sets on a 3ds, people should temporarily rename their 3ds to "EVO" (or another Tag if they want) and just put the set numbers after that.

This accomplishes three things:

1: Saves time by not needing to delete before adding the set numbers.
2: Stamps so people know what's official and what's not for the 9/10 slots.
3: This is the big one, ENSURES THE SETS WILL BE IN THE PROPER ORDER IF THEY HAD ANY OF THE STANDARD SETS ON THERE TO BEGIN WITH.

Otherwise you either need to manually check what to overwrite, or also go into each character and delete EVERYTHING MANUALLY before applying the sets.

Edit: and for people who already put them on, renaming to just put "EVO" or "E" at the end would be an acceptable substitute.

Or just changing all the set colors, they won't go on if people have the same set of that color but for the most part it can work fine, but it isn't recommended for the long run.

 

[Ansou]

rename their 3ds to "EVO" and just put the set numbers after that.

Yeah, this is important. It doesn't have to be specifically "EVO" but just some letters that fit. I for example named my sets "SBU" as I am a part of "Stockholm Brawlers Union". Or it could just be "CMP" for "Custom Moveset Project".

 

[John12346]

Just to confirm, this isn't done by changing the 3DS nickname in System Settings, but rather by changing the name of the first Mii you created in Mii Maker.

 

[Splash Damage]

As the deadline approaches, all final objections must be stated now. And with good reason. And fast.

 

[Helkulkhamen]

As the deadline approaches, all final objections must be stated now. And with good reason. And fast.

@Xaltis has been pretty vocal about including at least one Power Luma Shot moveset to use at EVO as Rosalina. While I personally don't see much potential for the move, Dabuz was willing to let go of the 2121 set since he wasn't going to use it anyways (source) for Xaltis' preferred 3331 set (source), so that might be one change worth making.

Edit: As ParanoidDrone pointed out, Xaltis labelled the set 3231 but it seems he meant 3331.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@Xaltis has been pretty vocal about including at least one Power Luma Shot moveset to use at EVO as Rosalina. While I personally don't see much potential for the move, Dabuz was willing to let go of the 2121 set since he wasn't going to use it anyways (source) for Xaltis' preferred 3231 set (source), so that might be one change worth making.

He's pushing for 3331 with Shooting Star Bit, IDK why he keeps saying 3231.

Personally I'm sort of beyond caring, if AA/Numbers/Wizard see fit to add it then great if not oh well.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, now that I have a bit more free time, I put together a video going over some customs, in this case Wii Fit Trainer's stuff:

It ran a bit long, but I think I covered most of what's interesting on her. Let me know if there are any ways I should tweak the format if I do something like this for some other characters.

 

[Thor]

Choosing order for stuff should be:

Winner bans stages
Loser picks stage
Winner chooses character AND customs
Loser chooses character AND customs

I think we should view custom characters as entirely separate entities, and you pick one entity to play as, instead of as characters with sub-options. Here is my reasoning:

The loser has counterpick advantage. I state this should include moveset CP advantage - I shouldn't be able to switch to an anti-Rosalina and Luma set if my opponent switches to Rosalina and Luma - you are fundamentally choosing your moveset, tools, and MUs every time you hit A on the screen in a non-customs event, and making the event customs shouldn't mean when you see the opponent's choice you get to back out and pick a different moveset.

To make the example clearer, a player who loses game 1 as Diddy Kong to a Samus shouldn't be forced to deal with Samus's anti-Rosalina and Luma set if they CP Rosalina and Luma, unless the opponent CP'd to an anti-Rosalina and Luma set and they still went Rosalina and Luma - in every smash game thus far, you have to choose the moveset and weight/speed/height/etc. you want to wield before your opponent has to choose who they play as - I think the winner should be aware of stage to avoid being hosed by a poor stage (ex: don't force Little Mac onto a Rainbow Cruise-style stage) and the loser should know exactly what they are facing before they choose how to combat it - this means they should know the full moveset of the character, not just the A attacks and grabs.

 

[mega4000]

Choosing order for stuff should be:

Winner bans stages
Loser picks stage
Winner chooses character AND customs
Loser chooses character AND customs

I think we should view custom characters as entirely separate entities, and you pick one entity to play as, instead of as characters with sub-options. Here is my reasoning:

The loser has counterpick advantage. I state this should include moveset CP advantage - I shouldn't be able to switch to an anti-Rosalina and Luma set if my opponent switches to Rosalina and Luma - you are fundamentally choosing your moveset, tools, and MUs every time you hit A on the screen in a non-customs event, and making the event customs shouldn't mean when you see the opponent's choice you get to back out and pick a different moveset.

To make the example clearer, a player who loses game 1 as Diddy Kong to a Samus shouldn't be forced to deal with Samus's anti-Rosalina and Luma set if they CP Rosalina and Luma, unless the opponent CP'd to an anti-Rosalina and Luma set and they still went Rosalina and Luma - in every smash game thus far, you have to choose the moveset and weight/speed/height/etc. you want to wield before your opponent has to choose who they play as - I think the winner should be aware of stage to avoid being hosed by a poor stage (ex: don't force Little Mac onto a Rainbow Cruise-style stage) and the loser should know exactly what they are facing before they choose how to combat it - this means they should know the full moveset of the character, not just the A attacks and grabs.

worst idea ever, then how the heck can you put a tier list with this? you can't even analize how a character perform against another in optimal condition. Too many advantages, with this mindset better stick to customs off. The loser would still know what he is facing if winners choose character first, then loser choose character and then winner choose customs. Loser still have the advantage, why you want to force a situation where people have to blind pick their moveset? it doesn't make sense and that would ruin tournament data completly. How the heck can you analize how a character performs against another?

 

[Thor]

worst idea ever, then how the heck can you put a tier list with this? you can't even analize how a character perform against another in optimal condition. Too many advantages, with this mindset better stick to customs off. The loser would still know what he is facing if winners choose character first, then loser choose character and then winner choose customs. Loser still have the advantage, why you want to force a situation where people have to blind pick their moveset? it doesn't make sense and that would ruin tournament data completly. How the heck can you analize how a character performs against another?

"Why [do] you want to force a situation where people have to blind pick their moveset?" Um... that's called game 1?

If you're not comfortable fighting a character with a certain moveset, you should be fully aware it's a possibility that the opponent will switch, and pick a moveset you are comfortable using against every character.

If you don't have a moveset you are comfortable using against every character, then I think it suffices to call the character "gimmicky" since they would have to rely on specials a ridiculous amount for this to be a problem in the first place, and probably advisable to pick another character.

Constructing a tier list is based on overall tournament viability - this WOULD affect tier placing for a character with multiple highly useful but highly niche sets (no idea who that is), but it would only affect in that in the way I postulate rules, they would be considered gimmicky or reliant on CP advantage, and therefore useful only in specific situations, whereas in a situation where one can CP moveset, they would be considered viable only if the player had a mastery of all their custom movesets.

In any case, I fail to see why a player who won with a moveset game 1 shouldn't be comfortable being forced to choose their moveset before the opponent does - we already basically do that with Melee, PM, Brawl, 64, and no-customs Smash 4 tournaments anyway.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The main cases I can think of where a character would want to change their specials based solely on who they're fighting would be:

• The character has an anti-projectile move of some sort. Not everyone has a projectile to use such moves on, and those that do are of varying importance. (I wouldn't even bother trying to Pocket, say, Fox's blaster.)
• The character has a non-standard loadout that is unusually beneficial for a specific matchup. (Samus would want Melee Charge Shot against Rosaina, for instance.)

 

[Teshie U]

Seems a little unfair to allow customs as a separate phase imo. I think it hurts the more niche pick characters that can't suddenly spec for an entirely different matchup just by switching specials.

Characters like the Miis, Sheik, Diddy, Villager, Palutena etc. Can almost get around being counterpicked by switching in reflectors and such and I think its fairly hurtful to characters that don't change their playstyle with custom. Some characters get better at what they were already trying to do (Marth, Ganondorf, Duck Hunt, Megaman) and imo would lose out on counterpicking if key options get switched out.

I suppose you can just say "more power to the versatile character then", but I think some characters with customs are still only viable for CPing, not as standalones.

 

[jespoke]

If you're not comfortable fighting a character with a certain moveset, you should be fully aware it's a possibility that the opponent will switch, and pick a moveset you are comfortable using against every character.

If you don't have a moveset you are comfortable using against every character, then I think it suffices to call the character "gimmicky" since they would have to rely on specials a ridiculous amount for this to be a problem in the first place, and probably advisable to pick another character.

The rest of the arguments you make are fine, but this one i fundamentally disagree with. The highlighted line is as far from what i would like Custom Meta to be as you can possibly get.

You can validly point to Losers advantage, but why should the loser get so much? Why should a winner be effectively be locked out of a large part of the roster and a lot of custom options? Shouldn't the game actually be an even match, not an uphill struggle for whoever won last round? (Ok, i can actually see the merit of giving the loser a small edge, but it should remain a small benefit)

I feel like many people don't get how MASSIVE of an advantage getting to counterpick your opponents entire setup is.

 

[Locke 06]

Seems a little unfair to allow customs as a separate phase imo. I think it hurts the more niche pick characters that can't suddenly spec for an entirely different matchup just by switching specials.

Characters like the Miis, Sheik, Diddy, Villager, Palutena etc. Can almost get around being counterpicked by switching in reflectors and such and I think its fairly hurtful to characters that don't change their playstyle with custom. Some characters get better at what they were already trying to do (Marth, Ganondorf, Duck Hunt, Megaman) and imo would lose out on counterpicking if key options get switched out.

I suppose you can just say "more power to the versatile character then", but I think some characters with customs are still only viable for CPing, not as standalones.

So you want to lock Rosalina into running gravity pull in the captain falcon matchup.

Or keep Villager from running Garden instead of pocket when there is nothing to pocket.

Why are we including customs again? /rhetorical

 

[Teshie U]

So you want to lock Rosalina into running gravity pull in the captain falcon matchup.

Or keep Villager from running Garden instead of pocket when there is nothing to pocket.

Why are we including customs again? /rhetorical

Well, the same could be said for character picking in general, but I honestly don't feel the person being counterpicked should have that much optimization as it obviously hurts the ability to CP with the half of the cast that isn't seeing major playstyle changes with customs.

Niche picks already aren't safe game 1 if there is a risk of being countered by multiple other options and if you add custom picking as a separate step it hurts niche pick characters where the should be most effective (on their counterpick).

Honestly there are logical reason to tip it either way, but it seems we would allow for more variety if we don't put this extra obstacle in the way of characters with a small pool of optimal sets.

 

[Locke 06]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I thought the idea of customs was to allow characters to be better characters as a whole and have more options for more matchups. Aka: the players will be able to utilize their character's "full" moveset leading to more interesting matchup play. Not to enjoy character variety counterpicks while their opponent runs a suboptimal custom set that they would never willingly use in that matchup.

Edit: I assumed customs would be chosen after character picks in game 1 to optimize for the matchup. However, to give no player an advantage, the customs would be picked at the same time/blind. Is that not what is being discussed?

Loser gets to choose their customs after the winner. That's enough of an advantage and actually matters in a few matchups.

 

[Ansou]

If the players pick customs after both of them have picked characters, then BOTH players will have optimal sets for the matchup, making the match more interesting and gives both players more options. If we do this, I guarantee that we will also see more variety with custom sets, as the players won't be afraid that their sets won't work in the matchups. If any of the players are to have an advantage, that should be the loser. However, we do want to minimize that advantage as much as possible so that the game can actually be more about which player is more skilled. Picking customs after both players have picked characters achieves this. Both players know which character the opponent is playing when selecting movesets, but only the loser knows which moveset the opponent has when selecting their own moveset.

This:

Spoiler

Round 1:
1. Both players pick their characters at the same time. Either player may issue a blind pick if they want to.
2. Both players pick their custom movesets at the same time. Either player may issue a blind pick if they want to.
3. First round stage striking happens.

Round 2+:
1. The winner bans stages.
2. The loser picks a stage.
3. The winner picks a character.
4. The loser picks a character.
5. The winner picks a custom moveset.
6. The loser picks a custom moveset.

is the optimal way to do it according to these arguments.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, now that I have a bit more free time, I put together a video going over some customs, in this case Wii Fit Trainer's stuff:

It ran a bit long, but I think I covered most of what's interesting on her. Let me know if there are any ways I should tweak the format if I do something like this for some other characters.

What you said about header is totally wrong. Default header's angle is great for the strategy most German WFTs use: planking. Really obnoxious planking.

 

[Rynhardt]

Bowser Jr. was space limited otherwise so we decided to thank our lucky stars for that and to give it just that one set that is perfect for it (3313 would have also been pretty good for Grounding Dash, but that one was a late victim of the need to get down to 10 sets).

I got heavily invested in personal customs research thanks to your efforts in starting this project and got really involved in the Bowser Jr. thread. Seeing every bit of input accounted for is astounding considering there are 51 characters to cover and your analyzation of the synergy is spot-on. The compromises are definitely fair and leave out no strategy or playstyle that Jr is capable of. It's exciting to know I got to play a part in Smash history and I have you and the crew to thank for all of your hard work in making this a reality.

For 5/6 of the characters I use, it seems like you guys did a very good job choosing which moves to represent. However, I feel Bowser Jr. and Koopalings could've been better. To be fair, picking only ten configurations for this character is a nightmare that's impossible to please everyone. All three of his side specials are very good for very different reasons and since his play style is practically defined by his kart and mechakoopas, this makes coming up with the best play style very difficult. However, I absolutely do not understand why up special 2 is paired with side special 1 instead of 2. X12X makes his recovery options lousy, while X22X makes him good at horizontal recoveries. Also, I'm very glad you changed the neutral specials. 2 is easily his worst neutral special. Projectiles like that only work well when the frame data is good and lack is minimal, which is not the case for Bowser Jr.'s neutral special. As for setups involving giant mechakoopas and side special 3, I haven't experimented with them enough to give decent feedback. I highly recommend changing 1121 and 1123 to 1221 and 1223. I see absolutely no reason why up special 2 should be paired with side special 1 over side special 2.

I used to experiment with 3223 a ton which was fun at first but I grew extremely frustrated with how much kill power I was giving up when I swapped both side b and up b out. I was feeling much more comfortable in 3123, I'd honestly never touch a XX2X set if it was only limited to X22X

If the players pick customs after both of them have picked characters, then BOTH players will have optimal sets for the matchup, making the match more interesting and gives both players more options. If we do this, I guarantee that we will also see more variety with custom sets, as the players won't be afraid that their sets won't work in the matchups. If any of the players are to have an advantage, that should be the loser. However, we do want to minimize that advantage as much as possible so that the game can actually be more about which player is more skilled. Picking customs after both players have picked characters achieves this. Both players know which character the opponent is playing when selecting movesets, but only the loser knows which moveset the opponent has when selecting their own moveset.

This:

Spoiler

Round 1:
1. Both players pick their characters at the same time. Either player may issue a blind pick if they want to.
2. Both players pick their custom movesets at the same time. Either player may issue a blind pick if they want to.
3. First round stage striking happens.

Round 2+:
1. The winner bans stages.
2. The loser picks a stage.
3. The winner picks a character.
4. The loser picks a character.
5. The winner picks a custom moveset.
6. The loser picks a custom moveset.

is the optimal way to do it according to these arguments.

This order of picking is extremely necessary. It's been stated before that the most interesting to watch match is the one where both characters are played to their full potential, but I want to add an example of a match I played at a recent customs weekly.

After I took game 1, me and my opponent did standard picks and counterpicks, I switched to Bowser Jr. out of fear that my Ness might get counterpicked, and without even questioning the order I went and selected 1111. He immediately switched to Villager and ended up taking that game because the matchup is extremely difficult, because my approaches are nullified by the Villager's ability to completely remove my down-b from the match, and this is the most important part.

It benefits Villager completely to remove his Pocket to get rid of my Mechakoopa, because it also nullifies my approach. And now we have a tournament match being spectated where two moves are essentially removed from the game, three if you can sympathize with me. Does it really make for a more interesting meta if moves are getting removed based on matchup? If you were watching Diddy vs Ness, wouldn't you want to see even more interesting decisions from the Ness player had he been allowed a down-b that could do anything in that matchup? We really might as well not be running customs if loser gets full counterpick advantage. While this situation was my mistake due to misunderstanding of rules, I got to feel exactly what it's like to be fully counterpicked.

Now imagine if Extreme Balloon Villager becomes popular as a counterpick. Assuming Falcon can't take that set on (I have no idea if he can, just an example), you will never see a Falcon in game 1, or a Falcon from a winner in game 2. Your best choice would be to always pick the character and custom set with the safest matchups, and we're right back to where we started with customs off and a situation where customs on only really ever benefits the loser. You could say even with these better rules used, Falcon would not show up in Game 1 because Extreme Villager could get played, but if the Falcon player calls for a blind pick, even the Villager now has to be concerned that he might take a character that can perfectly deal with Extreme Villager (Pika pi).

 

[mega4000]

"Why [do] you want to force a situation where people have to blind pick their moveset?" Um... that's called game 1?

If you're not comfortable fighting a character with a certain moveset, you should be fully aware it's a possibility that the opponent will switch, and pick a moveset you are comfortable using against every character.

If you don't have a moveset you are comfortable using against every character, then I think it suffices to call the character "gimmicky" since they would have to rely on specials a ridiculous amount for this to be a problem in the first place, and probably advisable to pick another character.

Constructing a tier list is based on overall tournament viability - this WOULD affect tier placing for a character with multiple highly useful but highly niche sets (no idea who that is), but it would only affect in that in the way I postulate rules, they would be considered gimmicky or reliant on CP advantage, and therefore useful only in specific situations, whereas in a situation where one can CP moveset, they would be considered viable only if the player had a mastery of all their custom movesets.

In any case, I fail to see why a player who won with a moveset game 1 shouldn't be comfortable being forced to choose their moveset before the opponent does - we already basically do that with Melee, PM, Brawl, 64, and no-customs Smash 4 tournaments anyway.

so you can't face a character in his optimal condition right? you need to counter pick everything he does in order to have an advantage besides stage and picking the character after your opponent. Excuse me but why do you play fighting games in the first place? you depend solely on counterpicking a character in order to win? way to go ruining the meta by forcing stupid fights that doesn't proof anything. If you can't fight a character in his optimal condition then why are we allowing customs in the first place? this kind of thing will make match's very boring and most people aren't interested in see characters fighting at his weakest. This kind of thing isn't hype and with that attitude I rather have custom's off, because with this you can fully pick a character who not only counters the winner, you can counter pick his moveset too. Also read the post from above, the one about bowser jr, do you want that kind of tournys in order to kill the hype and make people think this game isn't a true fighter? this kind of situations where only the loser can play at optimal condition? why are you so afraid to let pros play at his fullest instead of forcing stupid advantage to the loser.

 

[Coffee™]

We lifted our sets from the Sheik discussion. Personally I believe that Gale deserved slot 10 and that Abyss is an awful, awful move, but there was considerably more support for Abyss than for Gale and in the end we were compelled to yield to the Sheik board.

That's the thing. There just wasn't that much discussion there. Mainly 2-3 people talking. Obviously if more people had taken part in the discussion I probably wouldn't have posted this to begin with but based on what I saw on the board the discussion just seemed totally inadequate.

Either way, giving up Vanish, a move that is simultaneously a *really* good recovery move and one of Sheik's best kill moves, is a tough pill to swallow.

Gale has significant merits over Vanish. Abyss is decent but probably still not as good as the default.

As per the paralyzing needle set, it is paired with Pisces since Paralyzing Needle -> Pisces is a kill combo that is generally more powerful than anything Sheik has normally. The sacrifice is pretty severe to bring this, but there may be match-ups it makes sense to just pump up Sheik's kill power.

Pisces is more than playable without Para Needle. The discussion on the board added that one specific set simply as a means to use that specific combo. That alone does not make it worth a slot.

To be real, I expect the top five sets for Sheik will represent the overwhelming majority of players.

I agree, but to some degree there is quite a bit of redundancy in those top 5 as well.

 

[Rynhardt]

mega4000 reminded me of something very important that I'd like to cover as well. I'm not sure why people are so insistent on giving the loser such a massive advantage, I suppose it's in case they end up being that loser in a game 2, some day? But consider this, if you win game 2 on such a massive loser's advantage, then you'll be that much more disadvantaged when you're winner in game 3. The 2-0 would go extinct and be replaced with drawn out 2-1s. At that point, the only game that mattered was game 1. Remember that the larger an advantage the loser gets, the more important winning game 1 becomes, to the point where it can become the only game that matters

You can say "winning on a disadvantage is a true display of skill!" Yeah, so is beating a Metaknight as Ganondorf in Brawl. But it's not a very fair display to have to make.

Edit: Clarity, extra point.

 

[mega4000]

mega4000 reminded me of something very important that I'd like to cover as well. I'm not sure why people are so insistent on giving the loser such a massive advantage, I suppose it's in case they end up being that loser in a game 2, some day? But consider this, if you win game 2 on such a massive loser's advantage, then you'll be that much more disadvantaged when you're winner in game 3. The 2-0 would go extinct and be replaced with drawn out 2-1s. At that point, the only game that mattered was game 1. Remember that the larger an advantage the loser gets, the more important winning game 1 becomes, to the point where it can become the only game that matters

You can say "winning on a disadvantage is a true display of skill!" Yeah, so is beating a Metaknight as Ganondorf in Brawl. But it's not a very fair display to have to make.

exactly, and this can make us look like clowns to other fighting gamming communitys, specially at evo.

 

[Thor]

so you can't face a character in his optimal condition right? you need to counter pick everything he does in order to have an advantage besides stage and picking the character after your opponent. Excuse me but why do you play fighting games in the first place? you depend solely on counterpicking a character in order to win? way to go ruining the meta by forcing stupid fights that doesn't proof anything. If you can't fight a character in his optimal condition then why are we allowing customs in the first place? this kind of thing will make match's very boring and most people aren't interested in see characters fighting at his weakest. This kind of thing isn't hype and with that attitude I rather have custom's off, because with this you can fully pick a character who not only counters the winner, you can counter pick his moveset too. Also read the post from above, the one about bowser jr, do you want that kind of tournys in order to kill the hype and make people think this game isn't a true fighter? this kind of situations where only the loser can play at optimal condition? why are you so afraid to let pros play at his fullest instead of forcing stupid advantage to the loser.

You're making a hugely fallacious assumption here - that everyone will be able to play a huge chunk of the cast [and custom moves] to the degree necessary to win. CPing a character already means you're being forced to rely on a character that you didn't think would be your best bet.

Sure, if everyone can play Rosalina and Luma, Sheik, Diddy Kong, Villager, Donkey Kong, and a huge variety of other characters, sets might be long drawn-out 2-1s. But last I checked, Dabuz plays exactly two characters, Rosalina and Luma and Olimar. Mew2king plays Diddy Kong. Zero only plays Diddy Kong except when he's trying to please the crowd [and that's when he pulls out Falcon]. ESAM plays Pikachu. Nairo has a ton of characters, but how many of those could really have custom moves polarizing enough to beat CT Zero's Diddy Kong solely because Zero couldn't choose his 4 best customs, as opposed to 1111 [or whatever set he prefers]?

What do these fights prove? That a person was so reliant on missing at most 4 moves they lost a match. That's frankly kind of weird [like, Villager's garden is so good that without it they lost? Why did they not pack garden in the first place if they knew this could happen? Are they really that dependent on pocket vs projectiles that they give up garden?]. Already several characters are down moves in non-customs tournaments and win anyway - it's not like Falcon mains use Falcon Punch with any regularity, and Villager's Pocket is ALREADY useless vs Little Mac in non-custom tournaments. If a player is specifically choosing a custom setup that will have useless moves vs the opponent, they are taking the risk in hopes of a payoff - that's how double blinds and counterpicking work anyway [for instance, in Melee, when M2K CPs FD vs PPMD, he can stay Falco and fight Marth for sure, or he can switch to Marth and potentially fight Falcon, Sheik, or still Marth - he picks his poison, so to speak].

Our difference of opinion probably arises from this - I think custom moves are legal because it allows people to play with the moveset they are most comfortable with and feel they can perform best with against any given character. In this vein, I think people should commit to this moveset in the double blind and when they win, because in a non-customs tournament, they'd be doing this anyway. Furthermore, there are already useless moves in non-custom tournaments - Villager's Pocket vs any non-projectile character as stated above is one example [technically you can use the I-frames to land, but I don't hear people using that to argue for pocket over garden or whatever - and the example holds with other moves like Ness's down+B]. All of this, COMBINED with the fact that allowing winners to change their custom moves caused some grief [or whatever it should be called] at a local event (and most people agreeing to establish the ruleset I then relayed here) is why I'm defending this here. It wouldn't break my heart if people could change their customs, but it would look weird next to games like Marvel where winners can't change assists and the like.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

What you said about header is totally wrong. Default header's angle is great for the strategy most German WFTs use: planking. Really obnoxious planking.

I honestly cannot even begin to imagine how this works; what does WFT even do when they shield (or more realistically powershield) the Header right next to the ledge and go to hit her out of a non-invincible regrab?

---

As per the timing of custom picking, IMO it should happen after character selection at all points. It's pretty analogous to Street Fighter IV where ultras are selected in response to enemy character; certain moves are often optimized to certain match-ups, and ensuring people can lay out their picks correctly minimizes instances of "winning on the character select screen". If I were running a tournament, I wouldn't want the event to be won by someone who was generally a worse player but whipped out a surprise counterpick character to trap his opponent into poor customs for the match-up. Most characters do boil down to either one optimum/playstyle preference set (like Palutena has several plausible sets, but her choice likely doesn't depend on match-up) or a case where you're making pretty nominal improvements in a handful of MUs (like with Rosalina I can use Guardian Luma against non-projectile characters, but it's not a big help and not something I'd risk being trapped with in a MU where Grav Pull can help me). For that reason, getting this rule wrong isn't really that damaging to the game and is unlikely in practice to actually corrupt the results, but I do think things are best if people can pick customs in response to enemy character. I don't think the sequence of custom picks really matters either; you can go full counterpick procedure on it, or you can make 100% of custom picks double blind. It won't make a big difference either way.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I honestly cannot even begin to imagine how this works; what does WFT even do when they shield (or more realistically powershield) the Header right next to the ledge and go to hit her out of a non-invincible regrab?

Well, to be fair, neither of them think Giant Hoop is particularly good because it gimps her offstage game, so...

@AscWolf @Gianny

 

[Shadow_zero920]

As a mega man main who runs 1332 (Metal blade, Danger Wrap, Beat, Skull Barrier) this is not good for me. Is there a reason this combo is not available? Is there a way to possibly convince someone to make it so? I have videos and replays available if you guys need it for replay purposes to see.

Why do none of ZSS's sets have Plasma Dash? Am I the only one that likes that move?

This is a problem with the movesets having actual "sets" playable. All moves need to be able to mixed and matched. I am having a problem being restricted and locked out of a set up as well even though it is completely viable with the moves being used in other set ups mega man has.

Hey! Love the idea of this project whole heartedly, but in the previous, proposal edition of this project the creator made the last two slots open to if a user had their own set immediately ready. Has this part of the project been scrapped and these are the only sets that will be allowed or do you think you'll take into consideration having two slots open for those that have their own sets?

Also extremely acceptable. None of my moves I use warrant a "non able" use of 1332 for me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why do none of ZSS's sets have Plasma Dash? Am I the only one that likes that move?

Yes. It's awful.