Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Shadow_zero920]

Yes. It's awful.

Then what is the problem of allowing someone to use it if they wish? If a move is "awful", even more reason to allow someone to use if they like it.

These lockouts are counter productive

 

[warriorman222]

Then what is the problem of allowing someone to use it if they wish? If a move is "awful", even more reason to allow someone to use if they like it.

These lockouts are counter productive

Option number 2 is banning all customs, and then you're still unahppy, and so is everyone else.

 

[Jaxas]

Then what is the problem of allowing someone to use it if they wish? If a move is "awful", even more reason to allow someone to use if they like it.

These lockouts are counter productive

These lockouts are specifically for EVO, where they are not allowing on-site transfer and whatever's on the system is what people get (for time reason, presumably, but whatever the reason we cannot change it).

Most events will allow you to transfer loadouts from a 3DS

 

[Shadow_zero920]

Option number 2 is banning all customs, and then you're still unahppy, and so is everyone else.

Option 3: reasonably going through and hearing out people that have examples of sets they want to run and allow it to be available
Option 4: Just ban op moves and make everyone be able to mix and match.

If custom moves are being used in every other combo but not that specific one, why not allow that one to be used too?

These lockouts are specifically for EVO, where they are not allowing on-site transfer and whatever's on the system is what people get (for time reason, presumably, but whatever the reason we cannot change it).

Most events will allow you to transfer loadouts from a 3DS

Guess I need to make my case for having 1332 in then. Shouldn't be too hard with some match vids.

 

[Splash Damage]

Option 3: reasonably going through and hearing out people that have examples of sets they want to run and allow it to be available.

This was already do for the past few months, did you go to the boards to push your set?

 

[Shadow_zero920]

This was already do for the past few months, did you go to the boards to push your set?

I was unaware this was happening. I only found out about actual "Sets" being done from Shoryuken.com per an evo update. If this is the case, I can make an argument for mine being allowed. Is there a person I can direct my stuff to?

 

[Splash Damage]

I was unaware this was happening. I only found out about actual "Sets" being done from Shoryuken.com per an evo update. If this is the case, I can make an argument for mine being allowed. Is there a person I can direct my stuff to?

Hate to say it, but the discussion boards and room for objection deadline just passed today.

 

[Shadow_zero920]

Hate to say it, but the discussion boards and room for objection deadline just passed today.

Extremely unfortunate and limiting of what can be shown at EVO. If it requires me to place with the set I have now to take out a set that is less viable, so be it.

A bummer this discussion was not more readily known about. Here is hoping amendments can be made for extreme cases.

Locks should be done a month before EVO, not this early into the game. My Mega Man set isn't on there solely due to a lack of exposure and nothing actually against any merits it has. I am seriously hoping there is a way to amend these as tournaments do pass.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Extremely unfortunate and limiting of what can be shown at EVO. If it requires me to place with the set I have now to take out a set that is less viable, so be it.

A bummer this discussion was not more readily known about. Here is hoping amendments can be made for extreme cases.

Locks should be done a month before EVO, not this early into the game. My Mega Man set isn't on there solely due to a lack of exposure and nothing actually against any merits it has. I am seriously hoping there is a way to amend these as tournaments do pass.

The problem is that EVO is finalizing their rules today, hence the deadline.

 

[Shadow_zero920]

The problem is that EVO is finalizing their rules today, hence the deadline.

****ING
WIZARD

Ugh.

 

[warriorman222]

****ING
WIZARD

Ugh.

I'm honestly sorry. I can't think of a good reason for them to lock things in about 3-4 months early, apart from "Get it over with.". Which isn't a good reason. Imo we should have gotten more time.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm honestly sorry. I can't think of a good reason for them to lock things in about 3-4 months early, apart from "Get it over with.". Which isn't a good reason. Imo we should have gotten more time.

Possibly something to do with having to get a large number of setups configured? IDK, I'm reaching.

 

[warriorman222]

Possibly something to do with having to get a large number of setups configured? IDK, I'm reaching.

Yeah, that might be why. Somebody's gotta do that job, and it's probably gonna be tedious as hell so they want to get it done ASAP.

 

[Splash Damage]

Yeah, that might be why. Somebody's gotta do that job, and it's probably gonna be tedious as hell so they want to get it done ASAP.

Apex had ~50 setups with I believe 4 wiiUs per setup if my memory from participating serves me right, totaling 200 WiiUs. Likely an accurate estimate(I was also helping unlock characters on the WiiUs for a few hours and I saw a few boxes with likely about 200), and Evo is almost guaranteed to have twice the amount of people and subsequently twice that number. Being that each WiiU, according to AA, takes about ~13 minutes to set up fully(Possibly now 17 due to Miis), that gives us ~115 hours total needed to set up all the WiiUs, and that's not even counting the double checking and such. If my memory serves me correct, I also overheard the Apex team while unlocking Characters mention that the WiiUs they had at Apex were set to be the same ones used at Evo due to Gaming Generations or whatever supply company they partnered with, so that shaves off some time. I'd say that the extra months buffer time is warranted.

 

[Shadow_zero920]

If we could get an extension to where they require us to give a good argument with footage as to why something should be allowed, I would be all for it. I don't mind putting in the work towards it if the end result is my being able to play the way I want.

If this goes in the way it is right now, EVO will not be a showcase of the game's top matches but rather a more limited toned down experience. Truer hype will come from all the events preceding and following EVO.

A darn pity. I know others are affected outside of me that didn't get a chance to voice their opinion because they didn't know about the discussion. Wizard should use SRK's broader reach (which is how I found out about these "sets" to begin with) to do another discussion, or at least use it as a platform to promote the discussion that can be housed here. It would provide a lot more results, especially if at least done after NCR which is next week.

 

[Teshie U]

With dozens of possible sets for each character, I don't think any amount of discussion will result in everyone being happy. The fact is "optimal" isn't really known for sure for customs because we havent had a major tournament with them legal. Its all theorycraft and it will all be theorycraft until after EVO.

 

[Shadow_zero920]

With dozens of possible sets for each character, I don't think any amount of discussion will result in everyone being happy. The fact is "optimal" isn't really known for sure for customs because we havent had a major tournament with them legal. Its all theorycraft and it will all be theorycraft until after EVO.

1) Pardon my many posts. I don't mean to flood this thread. I just like good discussion [reminds me of when matt deezie years ago told me to stop posting for a bit because every other post in San Jose's thread was mine haha]

2) Why does it have to be after EVO? Why can we not just gauge all tournies a month before EVO and then have an OBJECTIVE discussion then? We would have enough results to make at least way better concessionary sets than what are currently here. At the moment, a lot of sets are done through subjective reasoning by players that are more armchair than active.

Right now, I feel like I am being punished for playing the game rather than talking about it. That isn't a good feeling.

 

[Teshie U]

At a local level we would have pretty skewed results. Most of the people winning in their regions can win with almost anything. Only when we have these great players come together can we see whats truly most effective at high level play.

As I said, there is no easy solution and EVO needs to get their rules together ASAP so everyone can practice it in the coming months.

 

[Shadow_zero920]

And as I SAID, there IS an easy solution. Local level tournaments are not ones that would be gauged. There is currently NCR, SCR, CEO and many other majors before EVO to give us enough time to figure out a great concessionary set per character.

There is no logical reason to put in moves now. There is plenty of time to get results and have a backroom discussion on what moves to put in. The discussion could be done in as easy as two days if done right.

 

[Jaxas]

And as I SAID, there IS an easy solution. Local level tournaments are not ones that would be gauged. There is currently NCR, SCR, CEO and many other majors before EVO to give us enough time to figure out a great concessionary set per character.

There is no logical reason to put in moves now. There is plenty of time to get results and have a backroom discussion on what moves to put in. The discussion could be done in as easy as two days if done right.

Unfortunately you're debating with the wrong people; even if you convince people (assuming they actually even disagree...) we can't actually do anything to change it. I'm sure everyone would prefer to be able to update sets as the meta evolves, but Mr. Wizard set a due date, and we just have to meet that.

 

[Dabuz]

Is there any way to change the sets? Olimar lacking a 1113 set really stinks when I just recently found out it's good.

 

[webbedspace]

Dizzy Whistle? Hmm, the thread's verdict was that it had no potential because its two hits refresh foes' recoveries and it has no armour. I'm curious as to what new discovery would mitigate these findings.

 

[John12346]

I've been throwing this around a lot, but to anyone who's running into the issue of local/regional sized tournaments not allowing imports from 3DS, you need to throw this quote in their face:

Most importantly, the bottom two sets for every character are "optional" for any touranment that allows free uploading of movesets on the spot. The largest of touranments like EVO are only going to allow the quickly selectable pre-sets and should be sure to fill up all 10 slots for every character, but most other tournaments can and probably should allow users to import their own movesets from their own 3DS consoles and may want to leave those two spots open to expedite that process.

The key here is to make sure that TOs understand that uploads aren't allowed at EVO for time constraint reasons, and no reason that has to do with competitive viability. Allowing the convenience of full special customization to players is important to the ideals of legalizing customs and is also a key design philosophy of this project.

And to everyone currently in this thread, please keep this quote handy for any TOs you see not allowing imports at their events.

 

[Ansou]

Alright, so it's confirmed that EVO will have the order: character pick -> stage striking -> custom moveset pick. That's nice to see. I'm slightly confused that they have character picking before stage striking, but this is obviously not the place to discuss that.

 

[Rynhardt]

Alright, so it's confirmed that EVO will have the order: character pick -> stage striking -> custom moveset pick. That's nice to see. I'm slightly confused that they have character picking before stage striking, but this is obviously not the place to discuss that.

Maybe that's just for game 1? I looked a long while ago and didn't see anything on Game 2 procedure, maybe I missed something.

 

[Ansou]

Maybe that's just for game 1? I looked a long while ago and didn't see anything on Game 2 procedure, maybe I missed something.

Yeah, it confused me as well. The ruleset didn't mention anything about game 2+.

 

[mega4000]

You're making a hugely fallacious assumption here - that everyone will be able to play a huge chunk of the cast [and custom moves] to the degree necessary to win. CPing a character already means you're being forced to rely on a character that you didn't think would be your best bet.

Sure, if everyone can play Rosalina and Luma, Sheik, Diddy Kong, Villager, Donkey Kong, and a huge variety of other characters, sets might be long drawn-out 2-1s. But last I checked, Dabuz plays exactly two characters, Rosalina and Luma and Olimar. Mew2king plays Diddy Kong. Zero only plays Diddy Kong except when he's trying to please the crowd [and that's when he pulls out Falcon]. ESAM plays Pikachu. Nairo has a ton of characters, but how many of those could really have custom moves polarizing enough to beat CT Zero's Diddy Kong solely because Zero couldn't choose his 4 best customs, as opposed to 1111 [or whatever set he prefers]?

What do these fights prove? That a person was so reliant on missing at most 4 moves they lost a match. That's frankly kind of weird [like, Villager's garden is so good that without it they lost? Why did they not pack garden in the first place if they knew this could happen? Are they really that dependent on pocket vs projectiles that they give up garden?]. Already several characters are down moves in non-customs tournaments and win anyway - it's not like Falcon mains use Falcon Punch with any regularity, and Villager's Pocket is ALREADY useless vs Little Mac in non-custom tournaments. If a player is specifically choosing a custom setup that will have useless moves vs the opponent, they are taking the risk in hopes of a payoff - that's how double blinds and counterpicking work anyway [for instance, in Melee, when M2K CPs FD vs PPMD, he can stay Falco and fight Marth for sure, or he can switch to Marth and potentially fight Falcon, Sheik, or still Marth - he picks his poison, so to speak].

Our difference of opinion probably arises from this - I think custom moves are legal because it allows people to play with the moveset they are most comfortable with and feel they can perform best with against any given character. In this vein, I think people should commit to this moveset in the double blind and when they win, because in a non-customs tournament, they'd be doing this anyway. Furthermore, there are already useless moves in non-custom tournaments - Villager's Pocket vs any non-projectile character as stated above is one example [technically you can use the I-frames to land, but I don't hear people using that to argue for pocket over garden or whatever - and the example holds with other moves like Ness's down+B]. All of this, COMBINED with the fact that allowing winners to change their custom moves caused some grief [or whatever it should be called] at a local event (and most people agreeing to establish the ruleset I then relayed here) is why I'm defending this here. It wouldn't break my heart if people could change their customs, but it would look weird next to games like Marvel where winners can't change assists and the like.

keep with that attitude, maybe next time they allow items on and equipment, after all with this the game is already a random crap.

 

[mega4000]

Yeah, it confused me as well. The ruleset didn't mention anything about game 2+.

where can i see that?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Is there any way to change the sets? Olimar lacking a 1113 set really stinks when I just recently found out it's good.

Highly unlikely, EVO locked their rules (including custom sets) in place yesterday.

 

[Ansou]

where can i see that?

Here: http://evo.shoryuken.com/additional-rules/
Scroll down to the bottom.

 

[PUK]

Highly unlikely, EVO locked their rules (including custom sets) in place yesterday.

And now all board are finding tech, strategies and combo with "bad" custom moves. It's hilarious.

 

[Conti]

Damn yo, You guys messed up villager. There needs to be a Set thats just the Trippy Sappling [you have one for just the balloons but NOT the trip tree]. :/ There are multiple irrelavant sets on there, The 2Tree, 3Rocket and 2Balloons should of been the focuses, The loid rockets are matchup dependant and for non-balloon users they are now FORCED to use the exploding balloons if they want the trippy tree and loid rocket. Most of this list is amazing. But this was definitely a mistake that needs to be fixed.

Note: I'm not using set #10 for villager for my tournaments, its completely irrelavant, I made Set #10 1112 because that should be one of Villagers Staple sets. I know EVO is not going to have that set, but that should be the set legalized for whenever you guys update it again, I dont understand what made you guys think to take it out, just because there are better combos with the 3rocket and 2balloons, some people [i know 3 villager mains, 2 of them swap between 1112 and 1312 depending on matchups, Rushdowns like ZSS and Falcon and stuff can just Dash attack thru the 3 Gyroid which completely changes the matchup honestly, there are other reasons aswell but thats just an example] are not fans of the Exploding balloons and prefere the recovery option instead.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm sorry if it's not 100% perfect; we did our best to try to cover as much stuff as we could with the space we have. Do remember that including a set always means excluding another, and we do have natural limits as a fixed number of people who couldn't possibly talk to every last player in the scene. We had such a lengthy and public discourse to try to maximize our exposure, but since the community is so ridiculously disparate at this point, the non-smashboards side of it was not possible to reach in an absolutely perfect way. I do still feel as though what we have should exactly match what the vast majority of players want and should require only minor sacrifices from the handful who are left out. I also feel that overall the list is quite solid; perfection is an impossible goal, but I'm satisfied that we couldn't have done better.

As a mega man main who runs 1332 (Metal blade, Danger Wrap, Beat, Skull Barrier) this is not good for me. Is there a reason this combo is not available?

Mega Man was legitimately one of the hardest characters to make sets for, and if we had 11 slots instead of 10, 1332 very likely would have gotten the nod so it was "barely" excluded (we do have 1333 you'll note). The Mega Man discussion was highly chaotic, but Overswarm was consistently the only Mega Man player to stick up for Beat. As a non-MM player I considered all of his posts about Beat to represent good sense, but the other MMs just plain didn't agree. When it came time to put together MM's final sets, we relied heavily on Ninjalink who is definitely one of the top MMs anywhere and who has deeply explored customs in general. Ninjalink had an extremely poor opinion of Beat, and in conjunction with the need to fit in a lot of different things for Mega Man in these sets, the lack of support for Beat required its room to be dialed back. I honestly had to push a bit internally just for 1333 to be included (leaving out Beat entirely would have been unreasonable in my opinion no matter how little most MMs like it).

Had you posted earlier, we might have done things a bit differently and found a place for 1332, but Mega Man was really hard. He's one of the very few characters who has strong and functionally different uses for the majority of his customs. I apologize if our attempt to cover as much ground as we could came up short in this area.

I'm honestly sorry. I can't think of a good reason for them to lock things in about 3-4 months early, apart from "Get it over with.". Which isn't a good reason. Imo we should have gotten more time.

EVO prepares their set-ups very far in advance. They needed to know the sets far ahead of time so the set-ups can be made appropriately.

Is there any way to change the sets? Olimar lacking a 1113 set really stinks when I just recently found out it's good.

Curious, most Olimars (and our own testing) seemed to imply that down-3 on Olimar is really bad. It would be interesting to hear what tech it has that was previously unknown. Sadly though, we're locked out now, and we're going to have to be ready to rock with whatever we have.

Damn yo, You guys messed up villager. There needs to be a Set thats just the Trippy Sappling [you have one for just the balloons but NOT the trip tree]. :/ There are multiple irrelavant sets on there, The 2Tree, 3Rocket and 2Balloons should of been the focuses, The loid rockets are matchup dependant and for non-balloon users they are now FORCED to use the exploding balloons if they want the trippy tree and loid rocket. Most of this list is amazing. But this was definitely a mistake that needs to be fixed.

Note: I'm not using set #10 for villager for my tournaments, its completely irrelavant, I made Set #10 1112 because that should be one of Villagers Staple sets. I know EVO is not going to have that set, but that should be the set legalized for whenever you guys update it again, I dont understand what made you guys think to take it out, just because there are better combos with the 3rocket and 2balloons, some people [i know 3 villager mains, 2 of them swap between 1112 and 1312 depending on matchups, Rushdowns like ZSS and Falcon and stuff can just Dash attack thru the 3 Gyroid which completely changes the matchup honestly, there are other reasons aswell but thats just an example] are not fans of the Exploding balloons and prefere the recovery option instead.

The Villager discussion on the Villager board went like this. Everyone talked it over and seemed to agree that Exploding Balloon Trip was a ridiculously good move, nearly a strict upgrade, and a move that any sane player would always want to use. Exactly one guy protested loudly about how much he loves 1312, and despite failing to present any real logical case for the utility of up-1 over up-2 and actually in trying to argue for up-1 basically proved just how ridiculous up-2 is (up-2 is seriously top 5 for best customs in the entire game and is definitely Villager's best custom), room was found for his set. The Villager board was pretty active, and internally we pretty much just trusted their judgment. Had someone said what you said in the Villager discussion, it seems very likely 1112 would have been included and as a player I would have been pretty skeptical of the 8th set personally (seriously, Balloon High Jump?) but we ultimately had to give deference to all of the Villager players we talked to.

 

[thehard]

Seems both aMSa and GimR have custom sets not on the EVO list...bummer

 

[Splash Damage]

Seems both aMSa and GimR have custom sets not on the EVO list...bummer

What set does aMSa use for his Greninja? Didn't know he used customs at all.

Also, Isn't GimR's preffered set a single-move deviant of an existing set?

 

[thehard]

What set does aMSa use for his Greninja? Didn't know he used customs at all.

Also, Isn't GimR's preffered set a single-move deviant of an existing set?

Dunno, they didn't explain. Hope they pay attention to the Project next time... if they were even aware of it

 

[Shucklin]

Hey AA where'd you get your rob stuff from? Cuz i havent seen any interest in upb 2 and the only person I've seen show interest in side b 3 is me. People on the boards have also shown interest in neutral b 2 but that was excluded. Thanks anyway tho, luv u bby

 

[JmacAttack]

Dunno, they didn't explain. Hope they pay attention to the Project next time... if they were even aware of it

aMSa has an excuse, he lives in Japan and might not pay attention to English forums, but GimR... he literally sees DunnoBro at Xanadu at least once every week -- you know, the guy advertising the custom moveset project everywhere and offering free 3DS powersaves to make sure it spreads.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Hey AA where'd you get your rob stuff from? Cuz i havent seen any interest in upb 2 and the only person I've seen show interest in side b 3 is me. People on the boards have also shown interest in neutral b 2 but that was excluded. Thanks anyway tho, luv u bby

Chibo and Oracle arrived at this conclusion as a part of the public discussion on the R.O.B. boards.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

For those who want to tout the virtues of moves/sets that didn't make the cut for EVO, remember that this is an ongoing project. Share your tech and your results and lobby for your sets in the next update.

Round 1:
1. Both players pick their characters at the same time. Either player may issue a blind pick if they want to.
2. Both players pick their custom movesets at the same time. Either player may issue a blind pick if they want to.
3. First round stage striking happens.

Round 2+:
1. The winner bans stages.
2. The loser picks a stage.
3. The winner picks a character.
4. The loser picks a character.
5. The winner picks a custom moveset.
6. The loser picks a custom moveset.

Just quoting this one last time in agreement. I really don't think some people are considering how things would turn out if the winner was locked into character AND customs before the loser picked anything. Match-ups would be more lopsided, hard counterpicks would be more prevalent, and the winner would be forced into using more general sets instead of being able to utilize match-up based sets, limiting versatility. It would go against some of the core reasons why people want to use customs in the first place.

By using the order in the quote above, you still give the loser the edge in counterpicking anyway (which he should have).

I'm honestly sorry. I can't think of a good reason for them to lock things in about 3-4 months early, apart from "Get it over with.".

1) You buy an international flight to Vegas for the tournament.
2) After you've made all your plans, EVO changes the rules for your game of choice. Now you can't run what you were planning to run.

Nobody wants to be in that position.