Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[aromaticguilt]

I honestly think that tier lists are useful, but most people look to them as a way of determining "the best" character. Which a tier list will never truly define. Sure, it will point out some of the better characters, but just because one character is a few spots higher than another doesn't mean "better". And really, each local metagame will vary greatly. In SC, we have a lot of good Snake and MK players obviously but I would say GW and Rob are crap, because of the players that use them. (And there are a lot) I play Wolf, and I consistently beat the Falco players here. So in my mind, Wolf is better than Falco. But that's skewed because I probably haven't played a Falco that is being utilized to it's full potential. I suck with Falco, so even if it's a character in "MASTER TIER", that doesn't mean it'll be the best for you. Pick your playstyle, there are 38+2 characters for a reason.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

I honestly think that tier lists are useful, but most people look to them as a way of determining "the best" character. Which a tier list will never truly define. Sure, it will point out some of the better characters, but just because one character is a few spots higher than another doesn't mean "better". And really, each local metagame will vary greatly. In SC, we have a lot of good Snake and MK players obviously but I would say GW and Rob are crap, because of the players that use them. (And there are a lot) I play Wolf, and I consistently beat the Falco players here. So in my mind, Wolf is better than Falco. But that's skewed because I probably haven't played a Falco that is being utilized to it's full potential. I suck with Falco, so even if it's a character in "MASTER TIER", that doesn't mean it'll be the best for you. Pick your playstyle, there are 38+2 characters for a reason.

dude, they don't like your kind 'round here. read all the posts from the last 2 pages or so, they just (and i'm talking JUST) chewed someone out for saying stuff like this XD.

 

[aromaticguilt]

Well, not really, I agree in competitive smash that there are better characters than others. What I mean by that is that one or two places doesn't make a character definitively better in one persons hands because on a personal level, one must factor in his or play style.

I say this also because my buddies will swith from one character to another because a "new tier list" puts a character one place ahead of their old one. An aggresive player shouldn't swith to a defensive character just based on tier lists. Obviously the likes of CF will never be as good as Snake.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Well, not really, I agree in competitive smash that there are better characters than others. What I mean by that is that one or two places doesn't make a character definitively better in one persons hands because on a personal level, one must factor in his or play style.

I think this is part of why tournament results are factored in, because I believe Chozen said that tiers are not based on character strength alone as opposed to other fighting games because of the differences in tactics that can occur in Smash Bros.

 

[Eclipse_the_Sun]

@aromaticguilt i agree with your ideas but i dont think tier lists are that useful. IMO even if you made a perfect tier list i dont think it would be that helpful in terms of picking your charecter to you because a tier list will basically only tell you that if a charecter is higher then half way up a tier list then the charecter will have an advantage against more then half the charecters but it doesnt tell you anthing about those charecters positions on the tier list. That being said the tier lists are obviously important other wise there would not be a 600 page discussion about. SO basically can someone tell me what tier lists are actually used for

 

[M.K]

Do they really base the tier lists on tournament results? Isn't this system sort of flawed? I mean, you can have a great character like R.O.B or Pikachu that doesn't get used in tournaments, and therefore gets a poor spot on the list.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is why G&W is definitely way up on the god tier.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174617

In short, the pros discovered that U-air stalling is indeed completely broken.

 

[aromaticguilt]

Right, and tournament results reflect current metagame, this has all been said before. But, I'm seeing a lot of people base their characters and change their mains based on a tier list. And then they end up sucking worse than before.

 

[St. Viers]

um, wow. just wow.

in regards to skewed results. I admit that popularity in tournies skews them, but then you have tournies like MassMadness9, where 5 of the top 6 were snake, and the other person was MK.

it was a 96 person tournie, and I'm pretty sure that those were a majority of the snake players who ended up in the top 6

 

[Grunt]

one or two places doesn't make a character definitively better in one persons hands.

*sigh*
Learn whta tiers are first.
Higher tier position =/= can beat than everyone below them.
they simply have more advantageous matchups against other characters while fighting people of the same skill level, and they have better tournament placings.

 

[Conway]

so because someone disagrees with you they are wrong.....what an ignorant community.......

I fixed it for you

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Right, and tournament results reflect current metagame, this has all been said before. But, I'm seeing a lot of people base their characters and change their mains based on a tier list. And then they end up sucking worse than before.

I understand that problem, but this thread probably isn't the best place to address that issue since this thread is about the non-Smash Back Room construction of non-official tier lists and debate over character ability and how well they're doing in tournaments.

Though, there are legitimate uses for a tier list other than "LOL LET'S USE THE BEST CHARACTER ". You can find out what characters you will have to watch out for the most, and you are not limited to top tier. You can balance between what character suits your playstyle and still can still perform in tournaments. Note that if you're playing mostly friendlies with people, you should encourage them to ignore the tier list since it's not as important for them.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

I think the only way to get a true tier list (and I know I'm dreaming big on this one, lol) is if you get the top 5 players for each respective character and have them compete in a tournament 100 times over, then pool together the results. This way, the tier list becomes accurate and less popularity based. Remove the bandwagoners and only have the best for each character; THEN we can have a true tier list based on results. If 80 of the players are Snakes at a 100 man tournament and the other 20 are Metaknights(and yes, this is probably an exaggeration, but I'm reiterating my point), how can other characters reach their potential in the competitive Smash "scene"?

 

[Dik-Dik]

Good point, I think it would have to be based off of 10 people who play as a certain character like Bowser for example, compared 100 people who play as MK, that screws with the results leading to probably 1st, 2nd, 3rd all being claimed by MK players unless the Bowser players can actually beat the MK... Therefore MK will probably go even higher up due to the results and Bowser might go down, if there was an equal balance of people to character then it would definitely help in deciding tiers.

 

[gantrain05]

so i dunno i never look at the actual Tier lists because i don't really care if snake or MK are god tier and everyone claims that they will never be beaten out of it, i remember in melee, marth and shiek were the god tier, and then thru the happenings of people finding things out fox and falco replaced them at the top, but that didn't mean that other characters weren't competetive, its the same way in brawl right now, the tiers are constantly changing and that is why this thread is here to debate about it so here goes.

First off im gonna say meta is never going to be taken off the top of that list, just because of the simple fact he's broken, pretty much most of his moves have so much priority and speed that most characters can't do jack **** about it. and then there is his stupid fast hitstun recovery and infinite recovery options, oh yeah, and when everyone says he has no kill potential its bs, he probably kills faster than any fast character with Dsmash, shuttle loop Fsmash and his super fast ariels. MK is not going down any time soon.

Snake on the other hand, is pretty much just a playstyle people really aren't used to yet. i can honestly see snake moving down to upper to upper mid tier. yeah he's got crazy power, and mines/grenades, but what else? once people see thru the typical "i set C4 on the edge, and then a motion sensor further back and then throw grenades" tactic he's not gonna be doing so hot. i can see snake being replaced by G&W or zelda or someone.

and as for that whole upper mid to low Tier characters, nobody can say how that is going to end up, all of those characters are so close in advantages/disadvantages its anybodys game.

 

[PK Hexagon]

I don't see whats so terrible about using a tier list to decide what characters to main. If you're maining Yoshi, and you really like him but can't compete with him, I don't see whats wrong about using the tier list to decide on a 'better' character.

Maybe its just the inner fighting gamer inside of me, lol.

 

[Kiwikomix]

^^ Unless you can't stand not winning a tourney, character choice should be based upon a player's personal preference. If that means you prefer Snake or MK, or if you prefer Yoshi or Samus, that's fine. This thread is in no way designed to manipulate character choice...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Indeed. It only reflects on how good the character is, if you don't play competitively ignore it.

 

[M.K]

*sigh*
Learn whta tiers are first.
Higher tier position =/= can beat than everyone below them.
they simply have more advantageous matchups against other characters while fighting people of the same skill level, and they have better tournament placings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f53aeimv8I0&feature=related

Doesn't this video say it all? LOL, I agree with exactly what you say, but I just want to show a cool (somewhat humorous) example!

 

[Kiwikomix]

0:06-0:21 is kind of what Brawl is like. Who would have thought that approaching was such an issue back then... especially with Marth?

 

[SaxDude93]

I wonder what happened to this saying

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" (Or something like that)

Anyway, for something Brawl related, I think Ike players have discovered a new spike that is supposed to be really good. Eruption Spike. Not fully tested, but it appears if you hit them with ONLY the sword, and nothing else, it's a spike. Has the potential to be one of the best spikes in the game, as it has super armor frames, slows him down, and large safety net. Is this enough to bump him up to mid tier, as now he can KO semi-good. Sorry if old.

EDIT: Will try to find video.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Um thats old and the spike is very unreliable.
For one it has to hit with the very tip of the sword so if you miss you're gonna get punished.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ SaxDude: That would be Voltaire. On a side note, I bet I'm the first person to mention a famous philosopher on SWF.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

I don't see whats so terrible about using a tier list to decide what characters to main. If you're maining Yoshi, and you really like him but can't compete with him, I don't see whats wrong about using the tier list to decide on a 'better' character.

Maybe its just the inner fighting gamer inside of me, lol.

Yeah, I used to think that it was pretty shallow to base your character usage upon tier lists. This is when I was using Ganondorf, Link, and Samus in Melee.

I tried Ganondorf in Brawl....eeew. Samus got the ugly stick (with favor towards ZSS), and Link is about the same.

Then I decided that I would main Sonic in a quest to beat all the Wolves, Falcos, MKs, and Toon Links. FAILURE!

As a consolation, though. I do well against Snakes and R.O.B.s.


Long story short, I can't blame anyone for using characters based off of tiers after what Nintendo did to Ganondorf and Samus.

 

[Ekoix.exe]

Ganondorf for midtier plawks. He has more gimping power then either bowser or Poketrainer. Needs to bump him up.

 

[NoobCake]

Ganondorf for midtier plawks. He has more gimping power then either bowser or Poketrainer. Needs to bump him up.

Actually Charizard has a decent spike, so he's not that bad at gimping. Water Gun can also gimp, albeit only in certain situations, but I've seen it done.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

After reading hizzlum's lists, I have found that the only character that I play with that isn't bottom tier is Zelda. She's hit-or-miss for me because she's so freakin light.

Other characters that I play with include Link, Sonic, Bowser and Samus. Is this why I have trouble winning against those Marths, MKs, Falcos, and Wolves?

 

[Yuna-Maria]

After reading hizzlum's lists, I have found that the only character that I play with that isn't bottom tier is Zelda. She's hit-or-miss for me because she's so freakin light.

Other characters that I play with include Link, Sonic, Bowser and Samus. Is this why I have trouble winning against those Marths, MKs, Falcos, and Wolves?

Probably so.
I main Samus out of sheer fandom. To be honest, if I went to a tourney with the intention of winning, I'd use Sheik. She's my best fighter, with Samus and Falco not far behind.
Low-tier fighters like Link, Bowser, Samus, and Sonic are VERY difficult to win with. It can be done, but it is not freakin' easy.

 

[Kirby Magatsu]

To complete the roster simply use Kirby, MK and DDD, finished.

 

[Browny]

Probably so.
I main Samus out of sheer fandom. To be honest, if I went to a tourney with the intention of winning, I'd use Sheik. She's my best fighter, with Samus and Falco not far behind.
Low-tier fighters like Link, Bowser, Samus, and Sonic are VERY difficult to win with. It can be done, but it is not freakin' easy.

i think you should put it the other way around. marth, mk, wolf are VERY easy to win with. bowser, samus, sonic actually take some practice and dedication to win. its not overly difficult, when when people are accustomed to simply mashing cstick until the enemy walks into it for a free KO, well that changes thingg.s

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

i think you should put it the other way around. marth, mk, wolf are VERY easy to win with. bowser, samus, sonic actually take some practice and dedication to win. its not overly difficult, when when people are accustomed to simply mashing cstick until the enemy walks into it for a free KO, well that changes thingg.s

I'm certainly not c-stick spamming. In fact, I prefer to avoid characters that "have it a bit too easy." That means I try to avoid the characters with great recoveries (Pit, Snake), can fly/multiple jumps (the Kirby characters), and are just obscene (Star Fox characters).

WIth the roster I'm left with, is fun enough, but the problem with playing with the characters that I have mentioned in my two posts is that you have to make up a lot of ground for their deficiencies. WIth Link/Samus, I like to keep my distance until the enemy get to a high%, but that's not possible with the Star Fox characters since they reflect projectiles.

I mean, this really isn't the place to discuss character advantages/disadvantages. After all, this is the topic where the characters I like are placed at the bottom because it's well established that they're just not as good as the others in competitive play.

If I can't play with who I like in competitive play while playing comfortably, then competitive play is not for me...I mean, to win with SOnic, you basically have to be better than whoever is playing with Marth, and if that's the case, why not play with tourney-ready Marth in the first place instead of Sonic? Well, that's because I want to play with SONIC, but there comes a point where the game is just not fun anymore because so many other characters have advantages over you on "neutral stages, no items" when you're trying to win. Get knocked out at > 130% and you gotta work them up to 200% (Sonic, Samus unless you get a lucky shot or a d-tilt on a light character, you're edge guarding or gimping...Link kills well enough IMO) For Sonic to win consistently, he *needs* the smash ball.

There's a reason why Super Sonic is outrageous.

 

[Wölf]

I know my post won't mean anything in this sea of posts, but here are my experiences with/against characters boiled down to a tier list. I know it's not really what everyone will agree with but it's my personal ideas.

TOP

MetaKnight
Snake
Mario

High

G&W
Falco
Wolf
DDD
Lucas
Ice Climbers
Marth
Pit
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus

Middle

Fox
Peach
Sheik
Ness
Ike
Charizard
Lucario


Lower

Toon Link
ROB
Zelda
Luigi
DK
Sonic
Pikachu
Link

Bottom

Jigglypuff
Yoshi

The others I've either not tried nor haven't played against.

 

[Kaizo]

I'm certainly not c-stick spamming. In fact, I prefer to avoid characters that "have it a bit too easy." That means I try to avoid the characters with great recoveries (Pit, Snake), can fly/multiple jumps (the Kirby characters), and are just obscene (Star Fox characters).

WIth the roster I'm left with, is fun enough, but the problem with playing with the characters that I have mentioned in my two posts is that you have to make up a lot of ground for their deficiencies. WIth Link/Samus, I like to keep my distance until the enemy get to a high%, but that's not possible with the Star Fox characters since they reflect projectiles.

I mean, this really isn't the place to discuss character advantages/disadvantages. After all, this is the topic where the characters I like are placed at the bottom because it's well established that they're just not as good as the others in competitive play.

If I can't play with who I like in competitive play while playing comfortably, then competitive play is not for me...I mean, to win with SOnic, you basically have to be better than whoever is playing with Marth, and if that's the case, why not play with tourney-ready Marth in the first place instead of Sonic? Well, that's because I want to play with SONIC, but there comes a point where the game is just not fun anymore because so many other characters have advantages over you on "neutral stages, no items" when you're trying to win. Get knocked out at > 130% and you gotta work them up to 200% (Sonic, Samus unless you get a lucky shot or a d-tilt on a light character, you're edge guarding or gimping...Link kills well enough IMO) For Sonic to win consistently, he *needs* the smash ball.

There's a reason why Super Sonic is outrageous.

I use characters because I'm good with them. I don't main MK because I'm a tourney ***, I main him because I'm much more fluent with him than with other characters. People that main TL and Wolf and stuff are people that play with them better than they play with MK or Snake.

Also, Bowser is awesome, so screw you guys. Maybe I'm just uberly pro or something, but he really has a lot goin for him.

 

[Wölf]

I use characters because I'm good with them. I don't main MK because I'm a tourney ***, I main him because I'm much more fluent with him than with other characters. People that main TL and Wolf and stuff are people that play with them better than they play with MK or Snake.

Thank you! I main Wolf not because he's high tier, (Although he is) but because I like the character itself. He's a badass in all aspects; if he was low tier I might even still main him. The added plus that he's tournament-win-worthy is a great bonus, too.

 

[Yonder]

Do they really base the tier lists on tournament results? Isn't this system sort of flawed? I mean, you can have a great character like R.O.B or Pikachu that doesn't get used in tournaments, and therefore gets a poor spot on the list.

This is EXACTLY what's happening to Luigi and Diddy Kong right now . I REALLY think a good character like the two I just mentioned shouldn't be low tier because they are underused, yet they are good characters, both middle/low high tier material. I agree with your statement.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ tier list:

try playing more, reading the forums (including the first post of this, which will link you to some useful pages, and THEN try posting a tier list ^_^

@ Kaizo: I play Kirby and Yoshi most. But I've never been to a tourney. That must make me a tardmuffin :D

 

[Kaizo]

@ tier list:



@ Kaizo: I play Kirby and Yoshi most. But I've never been to a tourney. That must make me a tardmuffin :D

lol nice job quoting Viers =3

meh, I know a lot more about stuff generally from going, I'm privileged to live in MA. You learn a lot from a tourney, and everyone there is friendly and sportsmanlike.

 

[Kiwikomix]

You know what they say... if you can't say something yourself, let someone else say it for you.

(They don't say that)

Yeh, living in Iowa is a pain when there aren't Smashfests or tournies or ANYTHING.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If I can't play with who I like in competitive play while playing comfortably, then competitive play is not for me...

mmk

but there comes a point where the game is just not fun anymore because so many other characters have advantages over you on "neutral stages, no items" when you're trying to win. Get knocked out at > 130% and you gotta work them up to 200% (Sonic, Samus unless you get a lucky shot or a d-tilt on a light character, you're edge guarding or gimping...Link kills well enough IMO) For Sonic to win consistently, he *needs* the smash ball.

There's a reason why Super Sonic is outrageous.

He doesn't need the smash ball
3 tourney wins and top eight placements say otherwise.
you can kill early if you know what you are doing.

 

[doodmahn]

I know my post won't mean anything in this sea of posts, but here are my experiences with/against characters boiled down to a tier list. I know it's not really what everyone will agree with but it's my personal ideas.

TOP

MetaKnight
Snake
Mario

High

G&W
Falco
Wolf
DDD
Lucas
Ice Climbers
Marth
Pit
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus

Middle

Fox
Peach
Sheik
Ness
Ike
Charizard
Lucario


Lower

Toon Link
ROB
Zelda
Luigi
DK
Sonic
Pikachu
Link

Bottom

Jigglypuff
Yoshi

The others I've either not tried nor haven't played against.

Lol, wut? Mario at the top and TL sucking? WTF?