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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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Studmonger

Smash Rookie
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People who are saying ZSS is low tier need to be paying attention. Low tier means barely tourney viable, as in if you're using the character, you should not place well in tourneys. Blitz's ZSS has consistently placed high in California tourneys, and Mprism got fourth at one tourney. The point: she places highly in tourneys at the moment, thus, she is at least higher mid tier.

Tiers are not opinions, people. Try to look at the facts, first.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, we don't really have much fact to work off of, I mean the game isn't even out yet for the majority of the world, and the few non-japanese players who have a moded wii are few and far between even amongst the most dedicated players. Also, there is no way that an accurate tier list will be coming out for some time. I mean, when melee first came out, no body was like "OMG Ice Climbers are soooo broken", but then chain grabing and de-syncing and other new tactics were discovered and ICs jumped from bottom to the top of middle.

I am seeing even among the good players the same thing I saw when brawl came out. People thinking that characters with swords (or any disjointed hitbox) are broken. Swords are hard to deal with, but there are ways around it. I mean, how many noobs do you know that think Roy is unbeatable because they discovered that the c-stick will actually do his f-smash for you? I think the characters are much more even this time around and tiers will be difficult to distinguish. Otherwise, keep it up. Tiers are a fun discussion topic and there's no reason not to bounce ideas off of each other to formulate a tournement worthy character list.
 

Skitch

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
1
My Tier List

After owning the japanese game for almost a month and extensive character testing me a few of my friends have decided on what we think should be very similar to what the real tier list will be.

Top Tier :

Ike
Diddy
Toon Link
P.Trainer
Sonic

High Tier :

Kirby
Marth
Sheik
Peach
Pit
Wolf
Zero Suit Samus

Middle Tier

Samus
Fox
Luigi
Metaknight
Falco
Lucario
Bowser
Robot
Captain Falcon
Lucas
Zelda

Low Tier :

Link
Mario
Pikachu
Snake
Ness
Jigglypuff

Bottom Tier:

Donkey Kong
Game and Watch
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
DeDeDe
Pikmin and Olimar
 

Blue sHell

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
385
Location
Spread across toast
I've had the game for just under a month now. I won't go through the trouble of nitpicking every single character at the moment, but instead I'll state(with facts) who I think will be ranked high and ranked low.

*know that this is just what is what at the moment, everything is up for change*

Lower Ranked

Captain Falcon: As much as people love him, the truth is that realistically he isn't suited to win tournaments. Ask anyone that knows what they are talking about in the Falcon forum, and you'll hear the same responce.

Yoshi: He could combo, I know. He could do a couple of decent things. But he has sooo many GLARING disadvantages that his decent things don't overshadow. I think it goes without saying that Yoshi isn't perfect.

Samus: Go to the Samus forum. Ask anyone who is drastically trying to make Samus better how good she'll be and you'll get your answer. Remember though, that Melee Samus's style wasn't developed for a while after Melee was released.

Ganondorf: Foward B is one of the best moves in smash history. But look at everything else, and it falls short. Too defensive with not much to back it up.

Sonic: I'm sorry fans, but really now. He has the most difficulty in the game killing certain characters. He has no reliable killing moves, and his edgegaurding skills are only subpar, his speed won't make up for it on a competitive enviroment.

Higher Ranked

Marth: This one goes without saying, I wont dwell into it much. Top? Probably. But nothing lower than high tier.

Olimar: He's a beast, he is the best camper in the game, has insane range on smash attacks, has a VERY LONG grab with almost no lag on it, and he kills very early and racks up damage fast. His recovery blows badly, and it'll prevent him from being top tier though.

Toon Link: Goes without saying.

R.O.B.: His tilts are so ridiculous that he actually is a very good counter character for Marth. He has great projectiles, his Backair auto-retreats him for no shield grabbing, he has a spike, his edgegaurding skills are unmatched, his Nair kills fairly early otherwise. Great recovery too. He's just great. Deny this, and your not looking at him right. High tier or higher mid hands down.

Luigi: Jab to firejumppunch is insane, and his aerial juggling ability racks up damage very nicely. He preasures shields so much and is pretty safe while doing so, and he has a great recovery and a mulititude of killing moves.

Wario: He's being overlooked SOOOO badly because of who he is. He kills super early, his fowardsmash is near broken with the fact that its super fast and has superarmor on it so it can't be stopped, great recovery, great edgegaurding skills, combos lead to finishers, preasures shields like no ones business, has an air grab, has the best aerial DI in the game, his grab game is among the best, he survives long but isnt a big target, he is really sincerely just beastly in the right hands. High or higher mid absolutely.

Metaknight and Pit: I'm catogorizing them together because they do indeed have many of the same slight faults and big ups. Both have a great recovery, have great edgegaurding skills, chain together moves very easily, are quick, and overall just very balanced and flat out good characters.

Snake: As of now he's been placing extremely well in tournaments and is simply great. Great camping, preasures opponents and has mindgames like crazy, kills extremely early, and controls stages. Overall he's just flat out great.

Ike: I might get bashed for this, but I always consider Ike as the Ganondorf(with a sword) in this game. He's dangerous. Ike's speed is way too fast for how strong he is, really. He plays great keep away, has a disjointed huge sword, kills very easily, he's dangerous to edgegaurd against too. There is a reason why Azen and many other great players have flocked to him.

Pikachu: Combos lead into kill moves, good recovery, speedy and hard to hit, very preasuring, and overall coming together very nicely.

King Dedede: Chainnnn graaaaaaaaaaabbbbb, scary edgaurding skills, great projectile, hard to approach as most characters. Has trouble with Marth, but ****, alot of people have trouble with Marth. Overall, he's great. I doubt he'll be too high on the tier list, but its clear at this point that he'll be on the better side of the characters.

Zelda: I'll leave this one to your imagination because I'm tired of typing, lol.

PS: Lol at tier list above me being completely based on nothing.
 

NessOnett

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WARNING: Wall of Text Approaching!

Okay, it seems like nobody ever says anything about Ness. But since i am a Ness main, i think i'll tackle this one. I have no hands-on experience so feel free to disregard anything I say, and dont bite me for it if anything is untrue later. I have however watched nearly every single Ness video on the internet up until this point(hundreds). I have seen amateurs and professionals, everyone in between, and computers of all levels play against every single other character there is. Most players when making their "tier lists" have not even considered Ness, and just assume he is low tier because they don't care about him and assume he is because of how poorly he played in melee.

Ness is possibly one of the most improved characters since melee(perhaps beaten by G&W). From all the videos i have seen, in 4p-FFAs with decent players, he has done equal to most if not all characters, overshadowing many of the "weaker" ones by a LOT. In 3p-FFAs he has over 75% win record thus far in my experience. He is nearly always the higher-scoring member in team battles, and usually causes a win for his side. None of this matters though, what matters is the 1v1, right? The tournament standard that the entire tier list is based upon. He has won well over half of his fights. Mind you because everyone wants to use the best, he has won over half his fights playing the likes of Marth, ToonLink, Diddy, and others that are vying for that "top-tier" status.(and yes, many many matches against Lucas as well). So by doing better in 1v1s than those characters, why is he automatically resigned to him pervious(bottom) placing?

You want to know now what's improved on him? well that's a long list, but i have some time on my hands. First and foremost, Brawl is NOT Melee. Anyone who has played it has said the same general things, "floatier," "slower," etc. This is great news for Ness, he is an aerial fighter, and the new physics of the game has turned him into what many players think is the best aerial comboer of the game. His yoyos...they do things now, they are faster than their 64 counterparts by a little bit, and far stronger than the melee ones. His d-tilt is still fast and spammable in close-quarters and now "sweeps" the enemy off their feet so they fall over.
His grab range has gotten boosted a little bit, and his still has his trademarked amazing throws(his b-throw is a little worse, but that's because people live longer in brawl; but his u-throw can kill people vertically very well at medium-high percentages). His d-air, it's much like the one from 64, the one that made him awesome. His magnet comes out faster making it a viable defensive move now. The flash is like lightning coming out(though still slow on buildup and hard to control). Fire is a wee bit faster shooting and more power is in the pillar as well as it being harder to get out of. But Thunder, his best known move, it has been buffed to craziness. It travels nearly twice as fast and the one in melee, and has less lag at the end. It has a tighter turning radius making it chase easier and mindgame better. The dreaded tail, which was a beastly edgeguard if used properly is about 3-4 times as long as the one from melee, and still drops them like a rock with no new ^B. PKT2(where he hits himself for those of you not familiar with Ness) is a lot easier to pull off, a lot harder to see coming, a lot faster coming out, a lot less lag afterwards, and one of the strongest killing moves in the game with huge knockback, killing heavies off the sides at under 50% from middle of FD.

I apologize to all the Ness-mains if i missed anything, but all-in-all he looks so much better than melee and now seems to be viable in tournaments.(now i guess people won't feel so bad when i win with him XD). But i just question all of you as to why with all these improvements, with such a good track record, does nobody see his potential and all immediately put him in the bottom. I am not by any means saying he is the best in the game, and i know he is hard to get used to and control, but from a meta-game standpoint he deserves at least a middle-high spot if not above that.
 

ShuffleTrain

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 10, 2007
Messages
265
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Georgia
IN no particular order:

Top Tier: Landmaster, Giga Bowser, Master Hand (my friends have a hard time knocking him off the stage) Wario Man, Stage Hazards, a brick, Time Machines, Mewtwo, and golden robotic horses


also

el oh el @ Skitch's tier list

hehe double yew tea eff
 

A2ZOMG

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Mr. G&W is top tier. Seriously. He has no bad attacks in his entire moveset except for his Up, Forward, and Back throw.

He is good because of:

Ridiculously good recovery
Shield punishing attack (B-air, this attack is effing broken)
Techchase setup (D-throw). I believe you can actually D-throw to Judgement if your opponent doesn't tech the hit.
Super super strong kill moves (Smash attacks are literally as strong as Ike's)
Up-air can stall the match and gimp kill
All attacks have amazing disjointed range
Down-B punishes projectile spamming

His only real disadvantage is that he's lightweight.
 

yoshi_fan

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
706
I don't know what are these "glarind disvantages" of yoshi. Can anyone tell me?

I only know about he can't jump out of shield, and his grab, but he has the best phyical attack range (no disjointed hitboxes=physical), and the best versatile projectyle. >I think he can make to middle tier...
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
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I completely agree. Unfortunately, we don't really have much fact to work off of, I mean the game isn't even out yet for the majority of the world, and the few non-japanese players who have a moded wii are few and far between even amongst the most dedicated players. Also, there is no way that an accurate tier list will be coming out for some time. I mean, when melee first came out, no body was like "OMG Ice Climbers are soooo broken", but then chain grabing and de-syncing and other new tactics were discovered and ICs jumped from bottom to the top of middle.

I am seeing even among the good players the same thing I saw when brawl came out. People thinking that characters with swords (or any disjointed hitbox) are broken. Swords are hard to deal with, but there are ways around it. I mean, how many noobs do you know that think Roy is unbeatable because they discovered that the c-stick will actually do his f-smash for you? I think the characters are much more even this time around and tiers will be difficult to distinguish. Otherwise, keep it up. Tiers are a fun discussion topic and there's no reason not to bounce ideas off of each other to formulate a tournement worthy character list.
And I'm bouncing the idea off people's heads that they really need to look beyond themselves and the characters they want to play, and examine each character's performance in the game. That's how tier lists are determined.
 

Kyle_Wattula

Smash Journeyman
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KY
Once everyone is ready for an insightful look @ Donkey Kong. PM me or find me in the DK threads.



Kyle~
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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it's a shame... most of the smashboarders haven't played smash but they'll clutter this anyway... that having been said I'm seing toon link, olimar and marth as some of the tops and sonic DK bowser and falcon as some of the bottoms.
 

TerranMasse

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again the way I look at it is like Alpha said was, these are simply predictions.......everybody's getting pissy just because of a videogame. This really isn't a big deal, everyone's making their predictions, and we shall see who's right and who is wrong a while after the U.S. release.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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again the way I look at it is like Alpha said was, these are simply predictions.......everybody's getting pissy just because of a videogame. This really isn't a big deal, everyone's making their predictions, and we shall see who's right and who is wrong a while after the U.S. release.
that is correct... but I mean.. videos aren't anything to go off of. I don't mind hoards of n00bs posting quite as much if they have at least played the game for you know... maybe a week at least.
 

bgong

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i think sakurai genuinely tried his best to eliminate the tiering of characters. it definitely seems like overpowered characters were nerfed and underpowered characters buffed.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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What is everyone opinion on Samus' placement?


I am curious :).
 

DarkDragoon

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What is everyone opinion on Samus' placement?


I am curious :).
Well, at first, I saw Samus as Low-Mid Tier, or even Low Tier, because of the massive nerfs on her projectiles.

However, I suppose since the introduction of Shield Dashing, Samus has a bit better approach. I'm not a Samus player, so I can't really speak 100% confidently, but I think Samus will be just smack dab mid tier.

Not great, not bad.
=P Of course, thats the highest I'd place her.

i think sakurai genuinely tried his best to eliminate the tiering of characters. it definitely seems like overpowered characters were nerfed and underpowered characters buffed.
Sakurai did his best to make this game "Fair" to all characters. He did do pretty well in this aspect, but there is no possible way to eliminate tiers, and, having been the lead game dev for the past 2 games, he should be well aware that there are always balance troubles, so he wouldn't waste his time trying to eliminate something like that.

Besides, once you can show me that Marth(At highest current Metagame) can be beaten by a Peach(At the highest current Metagame), and have it been an even match throughout, then I'll concede that Sakurai put a REALLY strong effort into balancing the game beyond the spectrum of tiers.

-DD
 

psykoplympton

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there will be a teir list because characters win tournys. if only kirby wins then kirby will be top teir. doesnt mean he is better or worse than fox. he just wins and is thus placed higher.
 

Deva

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I'd say Link is looking mid-high right about now. He has really good spacing and his claw shot adds even more to it with a lot of range and no landing lag. Along with a rang and a better bow for spamming, if played right it would be really hard to even approach Link with most characters. He also has really good KO potential with his dair, fair, d-smash, f-smash, and u-air. Only real problem is his recovery. Has really bad range and he's not as floaty as some characters so he's one of the few characters that can be edge guarded effectively. Luckily with the new game physics even that doesn't happen too often to Link. You pretty much have to knock someone out for a kill to get a KO.
 

PeteBeast

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Top

Wolf
Fox
Meta Knight
Marth

High

Olimar
G&W
Ike
DDD
Falco
Pit

Mid

Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
C. Falcon
Lucario
ROB


^^ Thats what I conclude on forum topics, posts, videos. NO SPECIFIC ORDER just the rank in the tier.

I do, however, hope that Fox reamins Top/High.
 

Dynamism

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I think everyone is mid tier right now haha. You can seriously back up every character with enough to rank them at least "high" with chance of winning a tourney. Maybe it's harder with some then others (like Falcon right now) but this game seems like it's all about the match ups.


Yes Ness is great! I don't know why noone likes his chances. And Samus, Sonic, Ganon and Falcon have potential.

And thanks for counting Wario, Pikachu, Luigi and Zelda up there Blue Shell. Diddy and Yoshi are being overlooked too though. ;) haha they all are!

I quit! None of this matters! lol ;)

Edit: And Link would've been Top Tier in melee with these bombs and arrows lol. Take that into consideration ;)
 

ChewyChase

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
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67
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From what I have heard and played:

(In no particular ordering.)

EDIT: I APOLOGIZE TO ALL WARIO FANS I'M SO SORRY I FORGOT HIM!
Top Tier
Marth
Toon Link
Falco
ZSS

Upper Tier
Lucario
Sonic
DeDeDe
Diddy
Wolf

High Tier
Meta Knight
Pit
Pokemon Trainer (all 3 together)
Luigi
Olimar
Fox
Peach

Middle Tier
Zelda
R.O.B. (or Robot)
Samus
Lucas
Mr. Game & Watch
Link
Shiek
Ike
Bowser
Pikachu
Wario

Lower Tier
Ness
Snake
Mario
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Bottom Tier
Ice Climbers
Yoshi

Just my opinion from what I have seen. No bias.. I also feel it IS a bit early but if we start guessing now we'll get it eventually... maybe instead of tiers, just a list of tournament-playable characters and non-tournament characters? Obviously, this will not happen but it is a thought of mine. I only think so because the tournament chars will all be either neutral to each other, or counter most other characters, and the character that counters the 'God Tier' will be scared off by other characters in high tiers, such that it will never be able to counter the highest finisher. It all depends on who is the easiest to win with at first, because once it starts, it doesn't stop.

Does anyone understand?
 

Glix

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One thing I haven't really seen considered yet in this conversation... (be kind, I'm noobish)

A characters move VARIETY is important. The fact that using a move too much makes it weaker, means that characters with a multitude of semi-effective attacks could be better than characters with one REALLY effective move, but crappy/useless other moves...

Does what I'm saying make sense to anyone?
 

spacemanspiff

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
249
The SF bunch, Marth, and ZSS look like top tier material to me. Powerful and quick.
zss has no third jump though. just the teather. that may hurt her in my opinion

with arials being emphasized i'm liking luigi
 

Lgndknight

Smash Ace
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Probably brawling
Tier List IMO

TOP

Marth
Wolf
DDD
ZSS
ROB
Toon Link

HIGH

Ganon
Meta
Pit
Fox
Falco
Mario
Luigi
Link
Lucario
Ike
Zelda
Lucas
Sonic
Olimar
Snake

MID

Bowser
CF
G&W
IC
Wario
PT
Shiek
Peach
Ness
DK
Diddy
Samus
Kirby

LOW

Pika
Yoshi
 

Chrono Centaur

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
137
Bowser mid tier, mainly for Side-B. I think that's his game now.

Snake for mid tier too

umm, top has to be star animals, Marth, Lucario, Dedede, Kirby, MK. Kirby is just...nuts now. WAY better than in Melee.
 

Rat

Smash Lord
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Mar 20, 2005
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Here is my tier list:
Names literally pulled from a hat. (One I got from the last Tigers game I went to =D.) First picked is the worst, then up.

Top Tier:
Donkey Kong (lawlz)
Bowser
Falco
Shiek (wtf she's still broken?)
Peach

High Tier:
Sonic
Samus
Captain Falcon
Ness (some unlocked potential here)
Wolf
Marth (you guys are waay off)
Fox
Pit

Middle Tier:
Squirtle
Ganondorf
Game & Watch
Mario
R.O.B.
Zero Suit Samus
Pikmin & Olimar (oooo I hoping he would be higher)
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Toon Link

Low Tier:
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Pikachu
Yoshi
Lucas
Ivysaur
Lucario
Metaknight
Snake

Bottom Tier:
Ike (you guys are way off)
Link
Luigi
Kirby (poor guy)
Charizard
Ice Climbers
Wario (lolz, first one I picked)
 

Metzger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
110
Bowser mid tier, mainly for Side-B. I think that's his game now.

Snake for mid tier too

umm, top has to be star animals, Marth, Lucario, Dedede, Kirby, MK. Kirby is just...nuts now. WAY better than in Melee.
I think Snake will be a bit higher than that. Probably just out of the top tier, maybe in it depending on how meta game evolves. He's pretty ridiculous IMO; you won't see a ton of players use him but those that have the ability and devote will be hard to stop. You'll get tired of watching him fly away because of SAF on his frickin' recovery, at the very least.

I don't think you'll see all three spacies in the top. I think it's likelier that maybe one of them gets in, but I'd predict all three will wind up just out of the top tier. Lucario... I dunno man. He's been my most played out of the limited time I've had with the NA release, but I would be surprised if he even gets into high tier. So many people are going to get burned on the landing lag of Extreme Speed, heh. Plus a fairly bad B-Air which has become a pretty important angle in Brawl's aerial game. He's got a lot else going for him though... I'd predict somewhere near the top of the middle tier. I think Kirby will wind up even lower than Lucario; definitely way buffed compared to Melee, but his recovery is really not special anymore, and he's one of the lightest of the light. Feels like his aerial game isn't as strong as it should be.

My guesses for "top tier"? I think Olimar is a shoe-in - the guy seems very nearly broken, even with his limited tether recovery. Marth, as unfortunate as it is, will probably be there too. Toon Link and Pit would probably be my other choices right now, if only because it's practically guaranteed their game evolves so fast due to tournament overexposure.

One thing I think is interesting so far is that I haven't experienced a lot in the way of "dear lord this character is bad" kind of discrepancies. Even Yoshi and Bowser don't feel like they're going to get manhandled in competitive play (Yoshi in particular seems to be flying under the radar in terms of gains made moving from Melee to Brawl). The only character that really felt like it was "left out" was Jigglypuff - they really botched her up from what I saw. Now I never did play Jiggs much in Melee, so I could be way off on that one, but I didn't even want to finish the one match I did play with her in Brawl.

I think the competitive scene is going to be a lot more diverse this time around.
 

Crizthakidd

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high tier is def marth, fox,

bottom high should be pit sonic and another hidden potentioal char like DDD or olimar
 

MarvinTPA

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
65
ummm...I've seen quite a few Ness vids...and HE KICKS *** LIKE NOBODY'S BUSINESS.
why is he still stuck in the same position as Melee?
he was buffed pretty good, yet he is in the EXACT same spot.
*breaks down crying*
&why is Lucas placed so high? he's pretty close to Ness (no, i'm not going on about clones, but he is pretty identical in skill) and i've never seen this fabled broken Uair.
*sulks, like every great Marvin should*
42!
 

Sophos

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Feb 1, 2008
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Fairfield
Olimar is barely a hidden potential character, it's no secret that Sakurai himself intended him for pro players specifically, and I'm expecting him to move from lower to higher fairly quickly. Captain Falcon, while I main him in Brawl, disappoints me. I'll have to move to Olimar, Fox, and probably R.O.B. (for Marth fights) and maybe throw in some Falcon here and there, so long as he still has the nipple spike. Toon Link, as well, but ever since I went to C. Falcon, I've needed a speed for my style of play. I might play Sheik as well.
 

A2ZOMG

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Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I think that the only definite Top tier at the moment is marth.
be careful there... I don't deny he's good... but at this point, no-one is definite.... though, I would tend to agree with you, that he's either going to come out in the high teir or the top teir.
 
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