Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ChewyChase]

I think that all the characters have some more to learn as one character develops, another one must also develop.

Link had different play styles in Melee, you could rely on projectiles (bomb techs ftw) to rack up damage, and go for the K.O. otherwise, use the sword strictly, or .. spam spin attack (lol).

Aniki for example, when he played Link he hardly used Advanced Techniques and succeeded.

Also, tell us, are you a Sonic main, or what? Because you really don't deserve to main anyone at this point, because all you do is point out cons in the playable characters. Sonic doesn't have priority or killing moves, we know that because that's all you ever troll around and say. I think everyone knows that now. Yet, you seem to attempt to support him in some contorted fashion. Honestly, It's like listening to Ash Ketchum and Barney sing.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think that all the characters have some more to learn as one character develops, another one must also develop.

completely true. it's just that all the n00bs in the world that love sonic seem to think that he has far more to learn and the "fact" that he MUST have so much hidden potential means that he must be reanked higher... well sorry but you can't rank on what might be.

and I' pointing out thatsonic's problems are many, but none is that "his speed is hard to handle" so, I mean, if you want sonic to be better, you have to move past this way of thinking.

it's hardly trolling to point out that someone is arguing a false point that's going to put false hope in the minds of many anxious to hear that sonic is good and that pros just suck with him.

 

[Ichiryusei]

Fox, Falco, Sonic, Mario, Luigi, Wolf, Metaknight, Peach, Marth, and Pit are definatly high on the tier list.

Shiek, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Olimar, Kirby, Dedede,Jiggly, Falcon, Snake,Ike,Toon Link, Yoshi, Diddy,IC's, and Rob seem to be in the middle of the tier list.

Donkey Kong, Zelda,Ness, Lucas, Lucario, Bowser,Game and Watch,Ike, Wario, and Ganon seem to be on the southern half of the tier list this time around.

The lists I gave are in no order, and are just what I think an image of the first tier list will actually be like.

personally i do not think that mario or luigi will be high on the tier list from the videos i have watched and peach wont be high tier because of the nerfing they did with her down smash, which by the way i am completely happy about. and i would put didy and toon link closer to high tier. And i dont know if u noticed but u put ike's name saying that he will be closer to the southern half which will completely untrue seeing as everyone is raving about his b- air and moonwalking capabilities.

 

[Emblem Lord]

UmbreonMow: You are very wrong.

Shield dash is actually pretty beastly.

Also Marth now has his dancing blade to rely on and he still has his awesome d-tilt.

Just dash then shield cancel to d-tilt or dancing blade.

He can still space with fairs.

Honestly, him being mid tier is just overexaggeration on your part. He isn't his melee counterpart. He is a new animal now. And the changes he recieved for Brawl serve him well.

He still has good range. Yeah, his comboing took a hit. That's what Dancing Blade is for.

Plus all of his smashes are still good as are his aerials.

I don't see how how an be any less than high tier.

The things you said are just plain wrong tbh.

I don't think Marth takes damage if you hit his sword. It's just that his reduced range makes it easier to hit his hand.

You are down playing Marth too much and comparing him to his melee self too much.

He is a different character despite the fact that everyone is trying to play him the same as melee.

 

[Johnknight1]

Toon Link is t3h b35t cuz' I s@y so, lol! Anyways, tires don exits in Brawlz....yet! We still don't even have the basics of the Brawl meta-game down yet. Or even most advanced techs down. So don't take these too seriously yet. Except Toon Link is the best because I say so! It's not like he's my favorite video game character ever. Or that I plan to main him. Or that I have him in my sig and my avatar. That would be PURE MADNESS!!!



Anyways, so far everyone looks playable. At worst, we'll have a smash 64 Donkey Kong (though not Dokey Kong in particular; it could be anyone), if even that. It almost looks too balanced to break. Street Fighter II and III, your time has come.

And IMO we need to seperate the Pokémon Trainer by Pokémon, even though you are forced to switch. They each are their own character(s), after all. But, we'll discuss that later. Don't expect any good tiers until 2 years down the road. $50 says one of the most common top or high tier characters nowadays will be the bottom tier come then!

 

[ChewyChase]

First off, I have played Sonic at a friend's place, his speed is FAR from uncontrollable, I do not have the mindset of which you speak.

I'm not saying the tiers should be what they will be in the future, now. Because that's just plain useless.

MY point is that people suck with a lot of characters at the moment. It is the hope of mine and many others that the game isn't really this unbalanced. I use Sonic only as an example, do you want me to you another character that is easier for you to comprehend?

All Sonic fanboy noobs (they LOVED all the 3D bcuz tehy ar sow kewl omg omg) are now Pikmin fanboy noobs. Everyone now says Olimar sucks and people are beating down on him because right now he seems useless, with a tether recovery, completely destructable Pikmin, and a lack of control over what type of Pikmin spawn when you need them. In truth I do not know if these are real problems, but we are assuming that for this hypothetical situation. Now that Olimar has been somewhat discredited, people dedicated to playing him can still have the ability to try and make him better. It's been 1 MEASLY MONTH. And already we have people like you running amok saying that character X is straightforward and is no better than what we have now, and why bother even BOTHERING.

After 1 month, I DO kind of feel I'm in the 'it's still really too early to tell' boat. There's millions of hands that have yet to put their individual spin on the game and two thirds of the people are still left to discover. Or not discover, but act differently. Maybe it's NOT an advanced technique, possibly even just how that character influences the metagame.

It annoys me that others choose limits so quickly for things, where some limits are blatantly apparent, and others, must be and will be tested.

 

[.kR0]

Lucas, Olimar, and Toon.

They're really, really good.

 

[ChewyChase]

The tiers are based on overall success people have with that character, and the consistency.

In Melee, which is VERY different than Brawl, beyond comparable, the top tier characters were Marth, Fox, and Shiek. They countered many other characters due to skills that none other had (E.G. Fox shining, waveshining, shine spike, etc.), overlooked and misbalanced, (Shiek... I think the dev team completely forgot to balance her/him/it), or very easy to play (Marth forward smash is a noob's best friend). It was so easy to use these 3 characters because of their strength, speed, and 'cheap' moves, they dominated tournaments before all others. When we discovered advanced techs, these characters remained able to perform those with great fluidity.

The high tier characters and above all have something in common: they counter and outdo a vast majority of those below them. The high tier 'circle', if you will, can't be broken once the characters have found their potential and their neutral matchups. If all the high tier characters are played in every tournament then middle tier char A, who counters top tier char B, can never place up there because top tier chars C and D will always destroy character A.

Balance may only be an illusion created by those who play. If most people can play easily and effectively Marth, then he will show up at tournaments. If everyone can chain throw with DeDeDe and KO with him, he will show up at tournaments. If tournament-goers can bair-combo with Toon Link before they master Sonic's ridiculous speed and to many impossible controls, Toon Link is then high tier. Sonic does not get the chance to be high tier because of his learning curve and difficulty. We were not able to figure out some of the 'lower tier chars.' fast enough before the 'quick and cheap' characters showed up and created a circle of high tier-ism that we cannot break.

Brawl, which has a learning curve from Melee to begin with, may be appearing more balanced because in fact it's easier to play more of the characters effectively. The ones that will require more time to learn, (Sonic, Ike, Jiggs, Snake, Ice C's) will start out in middle tier because of that hindrance.

When you match up a strange abnormal character, let's say Olimar, with one that is tried and polished, dare I say, Marth, assuming both people were highly competitive Melee players, who would win?

Olimar is ridiculously different than anything we have seen before in Smash. Marth was top in Melee. We already sort of know how Marth works, or so we think, but we have barely scratched the surface of Olimar's mindgames and playstyle.

Tiers are based on learning curve, and how fast they start dominating tournaments with other high tier characters, until an in-counterable family of characters is created that walls the characters below them.

Balance is determined by the players, and tiers are also relative to a player's skill with a given character, and the time it takes to develop it fully and comparably for use in tournaments.

 

[Simply Rice]

ChewyChase you better save your last post for when the next Smash Bros comes out...something tells me we're gonna need it again.

=P

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

(I don't really feel lik wasting space by quoting your whole post, but I want you to know I'm responding to you.)

while I agree, that teir lists aren't going to be set in stone this early, the only point I was trying to make was that, at this point, sonic is very low and he probably will stay there for at least the next few teir lists.

the only real problem this poses for sonic is that it might discourage some pros who could find good ways of using him from picking him up because he's bad in tyhe eyes of the smash community.

but, I mean, look at what you said makes a character good: ridiculous skills/combos which can kill. lack of balance (on the good side), ease of pwnage. sonic's on the complete opposite end of the spectrum and nothing else he's got seems to do anything but hurt his standing so, at least now, he's gotta be way low on the teir list. This is all I'm saying... I hope you aren't trying to disagree with that.

and the olimar example's not great because olimar obviously has a much higher learning curve than sonic.... but olimar is thought of very highly high teir at least if not top teir. and this is all for just current discoveries... not his hidden potential.

the major problem I have with your argument, however, is the problem I have with most arguments that are pro-sonic.... and that is the argument that he has a high learning curve. really he doesn't. You will have to probably learn how to play very smart with him to win. but controlling him and such is VERY straight forward. nothing about his learning curve is inherently much higher than anyone elses. arguing that his learning curve is so high is normally just the defense of people who want sonic to be good, but have no proof that he is... so they cling to the hope that we haven't unlocked some hidden potential. while this is probably somewhat true, ALL characters probbaly have some hidden potential... even characters allready top teir.

 

[royinator]

Fox, Falco, Sonic, Mario, Luigi, Wolf, Metaknight, Peach, Marth, and Pit are definatly high on the tier list.

Shiek, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Olimar, Kirby, Dedede,Jiggly, Falcon, Snake,Ike,Toon Link, Yoshi, Diddy,IC's, and Rob seem to be in the middle of the tier list.

Donkey Kong, Zelda,Ness, Lucas, Lucario, Bowser,Game and Watch,Ike, Wario, and Ganon seem to be on the southern half of the tier list this time around.

The lists I gave are in no order, and are just what I think an image of the first tier list will actually be like.

you've got ike twice

 

[Sophos]

The only thing learning curves even have an effect on at all with tournament play is a character's metagame, which can barely be considered indicative of anything this early on. Where was C. Falcon on the tier list for Melee at the beginning? Where is he now? It's far too early to have a real tier list, especially because of how subjective they are from the beginning. I'm not saying tiers don't exist, I'm saying the way we have them is fairly subjective, and that they are flexible to change from time to time. We're going to have to wait a number of months and have some real tournament play (determine who the Brawl pros are and such) before we have any idea of the potential of some characters versus other characters.

Now on to Sonic. Sonic does have the advantage of speed, however is recovery is a little put off for me. His Up-B sends him straight up. If he's smashed off the stage, his lack of lateral movement will surely lower his chances of returning. Not only that, but he doesn't really have killing moves, does he? Sonic was very well balanced for the game, and in that sense, really isn't suited for tournament play. (A pity, I was looking forward to that.)

Olimar has a number of new discoveries, though, and is supposedly the closest character to broken as anyone in the game. Sakurai (I've already said this before) already said he intended for advanced players, so it's as if he was made for the purpose of tournament play. I'm sure people have dedicated a lot of time to the character to figure out why.

 

[raffae]

i think toon link willbe pretty high up in the tier list but who isnt i mean there are no horrid charecters in brawl

 

[Flamesamurai]

My guess based on videos and move sets.

High tier in order.
Pkmn trainer
Ike
Meta knight
snake
dedede
pikmin

Mid high tier.
Pit
Zelda/sheik
Falco
Wolf

mid tier
Toon link
bowser
fox
lucario
wario

Low mid tier
lucas
marth
mario
pikachu
ness ( i cant say with tthis one cause he isint used as much as lucas.)
mr game and watch
peach.

Low tier everyone else in no order.

Oh i forgot other people that should be higher then low but i cant remember then now so see this as incomplete.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic does have the advantage of speed, however is recovery is a little put off for me. His Up-B sends him straight up. If he's smashed off the stage, his lack of lateral movement will surely lower his chances of returning.

sonic's recovery is tops man... he rarely ever has a problem with it.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

What I'm seeing is a lot of like, Game and Watch in low tier and that kind of stuff.

But the thing is, there aren't many good videos of game and watch and I think a lot of people are putting him there because of his Melee self. Game and Watch can attack after his triple jump, that alone makes me feel like people should check him out more.

I dunno, if he still has **** priority and a **** roll and a ****ty weight then I guess he's still bad, but I think he should be looked at more.

Ditto for other characters.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

My guess based on videos and move sets.

High tier in order.
Pkmn trainer
Ike
Meta knight
snake
dedede
pikmin

Mid high tier.
Pit
Zelda/sheik
Falco
Wolf

mid tier
Toon link
bowser
fox
lucario
wario

Low mid tier
lucas
marth
mario
pikachu
ness ( i cant say with tthis one cause he isint used as much as lucas.)
mr game and watch
peach.

Low tier everyone else in no order.

Oh i forgot other people that should be higher then low but i cant remember then now so see this as incomplete.

Jesus, this kind of thing makes me lose even more faith in this topic. I mean already the game isn't out and stuff but at least people could have intelligent suggestions, but half the time it seems like:

Top tier:
Characters I like

Other tiers:
Minimal thought given to character placement.

All I'm able to see in this list is Ike, Snake, and Dedede high tier with Fox and Toon Link in mid tier and then marth in LOW MID TIER. Marth? Are you kidding me? High tier no question.

 

[furyberserk]

The tiers should go by the last one that doesn't have many changes with the character. Marth only lost his wavedashing, but kept everything else.

Top:
I haven't seen enough 1 on 1 battles to suggest

High:
Sheik
Marth
Peach(depending on her second jump and floating time length.)

Middle - Bottom:
=Top

Ganondorf seems slower to me or the same and Pokemon Trainer is obviously High. PT has many choices form the begining, but Ivysaur and Squrtle may never make it back( edgehog ivysaur and squirtles surf doesn't help much).

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

Tires does exits.

You can't get around this fact. Many characters have a young, developing metagame still and may improve in the future, through ATs or otherwise. It's impossible to say "I've watched a lot of Brawl videos. I think this is the tier list." Do you know the relative skill level of the players in the match? Who does the match-up favor? How small is the sample size?

You can only make a strong tier list after many, many battles and much discussion. It's neigh impossible to have a quality one right off the bat from just your observations.

 

[The Mediator]

Tiers are dead.


Long live balanced characters.

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

Tiers are dead.


Long live balanced characters.

Care to give me some more insight on your opinion? I will say that the game has the feel of having more balance, but there isn't enough data to come to that conclusion. If you can name a fighting game that has many characters and no tiers whatsoever, you get a cookie.

 

[ChewyChase]

@Sonic Hedgehawg: I do not think he has a very high learning curve in the sense that you know it. I guess I use learning curve loosely, meaning how quickly you can become a certain standard of 'good', or unlock something's full potential.

I don't think you understand what I am saying though, you must have entirely missed it, or didn't read it. I can almost not blame people if they didn't read it. I did not say ridiculous combos and kill moves are the only way to win, it is that they are the most obvious ways of winning, and characters that can do that easier will be high tier faster. A character with a trick to success is not going to be up there as high because it takes longer for people to figure out how.

 

[IrishSheikah]

Tiers are dead.


Long live balanced characters.

Stop insulting competitive tiers, how dare you! Tiers are really just a calculation of characters of characters who win more, which means a character has to be better in that situation. There can never be exactly balanced players!

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Tiers are dead.


Long live balanced characters.

This is seriously the best post in this thread. Mind if I sig quote this?

Stop insulting competitive tiers, how dare you! Tiers are really just a calculation of characters of characters who win more, which means a character has to be better in that situation. There can never be exactly balanced players!

It could also be argued that tier lists are popularity contests. Example, once everyone found out Sheik was broken as hell in Melee, everyone started using her. If everyone decided to use Pickachu for some reason, he'd be higher on the tier list.

 

[IrishSheikah]

It could also be argued that tier lists are popularity contests. Example, once everyone found out Sheik was broken as hell in Melee, everyone started using her. If everyone decided to use Pickachu for some reason, he'd be higher on the tier list.

Wrong and Fail!

 

[Deleted member]

UmbreonMow: You are very wrong.

Shield dash is actually pretty beastly.

Also Marth now has his dancing blade to rely on and he still has his awesome d-tilt.

Just dash then shield cancel to d-tilt or dancing blade.

He can still space with fairs.

Honestly, him being mid tier is just overexaggeration on your part. He isn't his melee counterpart. He is a new animal now. And the changes he recieved for Brawl serve him well.

He still has good range. Yeah, his comboing took a hit. That's what Dancing Blade is for.

Plus all of his smashes are still good as are his aerials.

I don't see how how an be any less than high tier.

The things you said are just plain wrong tbh.

I don't think Marth takes damage if you hit his sword. It's just that his reduced range makes it easier to hit his hand.

You are down playing Marth too much and comparing him to his melee self too much.

He is a different character despite the fact that everyone is trying to play him the same as melee.

ok, rather than comparing him to his melee self, I'll compare him to other brawl characters. Marth when properly camped is reduced to random sidesmashes, and is therefore mediocre and mid tier. you can ask m2kfor further details, but basically marth isn't that good.

 

[The Mediator]

This is seriously the best post in this thread. Mind if I sig quote this?

Go ahead =)

Care to give me some more insight on your opinion? I will say that the game has the feel of having more balance, but there isn't enough data to come to that conclusion. If you can name a fighting game that has many characters and no tiers whatsoever, you get a cookie.

Lessee... have you even taken a moment to look at some of these tier lists?!?! Some say one thing, and some say EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. I've seen Sonic at the top at the bottom, Ike is all over the map, same with G&W. Has it ever occurred to you that some of these could be biased, or simply because some have been played more than others?
Anyways, as for the fighting game: Brawl. Now where's my cookie?

 

[Prince Of Fire]

I am trying to put aside everything I know/learned from melee heading into this game...I think that if i do that I will get better quicker.

Marth is not the same...(sad)...but I will get over it....Is he still a GOOD character guys?


All i care about is that he still packs his range, tilts are excellent, and his grab range is still good....from there you can experiment with combos.

EDIT-As a Marth player I never was 100% comfortable with using his Fair to tell you the truth..i loved it...but spacing it was very hard for me....I also work off of my wavedashes to help get his spacing...so that may take a while....err

I see Sonic as being "God" tier for one reason and one only-his speed is AWESOME...if he falls fast...(i dont know if he does) he'll be god tier for sure.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

M2K loves to overexxaggerate as well.

Plus his opinion changes alot.

Once he told me he thinks Ike might be better then Marth.

When I explained to him how crazy that sounded and I talked to him more he conceded that Marth was indeed the better character. M2K lets his own personal experience and bias influence him too much.

Camped?

How can you camp Marth any worse then in Melee?

There are plenty of options to deal with camping.

And saying that Marth is redcued to f-smash spam when camped is utterly ridiculous.

Projectiles aren't that hard to contend with.

Jump to instant airdodge. Run into shield. Dash attack lets Marth advance and catch item projectiles at the same time. You can also catch them during an airdodge. There is also instant double jump approaching and full jump approaching.

Heck just walk if you wanna be cautious. Shield and then roll. Marth can crouch and d-tilt to move forward. His d-tilt moves him forward when he uses it.

Honestly Mow you are pulling stuff outta your ***.

Cut it out.

You're smarter then that.

 

[shadydentist]

It could also be argued that tier lists are popularity contests. Example, once everyone found out Sheik was broken as hell in Melee, everyone started using her. If everyone decided to use Pickachu for some reason, he'd be higher on the tier list.

Think about it this way: Early in Melee's life span, there was a much larger diversity of character choices in tournament settings. Towards the end, there was a considerable skew towards the higher-tier characters.

Perhaps this is the result of a 'popularity contest', as you so call it, but only insofar as the characters become popular because they are good, and not the other way around. As brawl progresses, no doubt something similar will occur.

 

[BigRick]

Zero Sam looks underrated... she has looooong combos

Isn't Marth's counter really good now?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The tiers should go by the last one.
High:
Sheik
Marth
Peach(depending on her second jump and floating time length.)
.

umm... no. sheik is bad and peach is mid. the game is different.. even if chracters didn't change much... which many did, changes in the game mechanics alone would change the teirs.

and as for thew wole tiers are dead argument... it's wrong... the tiers mite be closer, but they still exist.

and to those saying sonic is in the "god" tier you are on drugs. it's one thing to have a teir list that slightly misses the mark... but a miscalculation this large is just ridiculous.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Think about it this way: Early in Melee's life span, there was a much larger diversity of character choices in tournament settings. Towards the end, there was a considerable skew towards the higher-tier characters.

Perhaps this is the result of a 'popularity contest', as you so call it, but only insofar as the characters become popular because they are good, and not the other way around. As brawl progresses, no doubt something similar will occur.

I think of it this way, Brawl's cast of character is alot like your selection of gun in the PC FPS Call of Duty 4 (which I play). There are lots of different weapons with different, accuracy ratings, clip sizes, damage, and recoil, but ultimately, the guy with the better aim is going to when, regardless of what gun he chooses. I think its like that with Brawl and the different characters.

And yeah, unfortunately people like to use EZ mode broken characters instead of learning harder to use ones. I play Yoshi and Samus. Samus is actually looking like she might be higher tier, but I know Yoshi probably is going to be bottom, simply because not too many people play him. This is why I love watching Fumi and Taj's videos(http://youtube.com/watch?v=yd1FFTsecW4 watch that, **** is sick), they made low tier characters work...more than that even, they made them ****.

The problem is that new players look at the tier list and base their character choices off of that instead of using a character they like. So as soon as early tier results are in, people will just emulate those. Its sad really...so much unused potential of some characters.

But thanks for actually bringing up a good point instead of just posting "wrong and fail!" like that other tard did.

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

Lessee... have you even taken a moment to look at some of these tier lists?!?! Some say one thing, and some say EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. I've seen Sonic at the top at the bottom, Ike is all over the map, same with G&W. Has it ever occurred to you that some of these could be biased, or simply because some have been played more than others?
Anyways, as for the fighting game: Brawl. Now where's my cookie?

Of course, I've seen many mockery lists that claim to be of the tiers. You can't put much weight on them yet. If Brawl is so balanced, tell me how each character matches up against each other. Do they all counter, and are countered by, the same amount of characters? Does each character have perfectly weighted pros and cons, in the competitive spectrum? We don't have nearly enough information to form a decent tier list. Give it some time.

No cookie, yet. Earn it. =)

 

[shadydentist]

The problem is that new players look at the tier list and base their character choices off of that instead of using a character they like. So as soon as early tier results are in, people will just emulate those. Its sad really...so much unused potential of some characters.

That, unfortunately, cannot be helped. But this shouldn't come into play until much later, I think.

Admittedly, the only shooter I've had real experience with is Counterstrike, where at high-level competition, you rarely see anything other than AKs, M4s, and AWPs.

 

[ChewyChase]

I can't see Tiers as a popularity contest, but the more popular the character is, the more hands try to play them... which means experience for that character. Regardless of how good something is, it doesn't matter if nobody applies it. I think that's the case with a couple of characters in SSBB now.

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

Characters that get played more have a higher chance of developing a new, better strategy. You still can't predict how the metagame is going to turn out, but that remains true. Characters that are high on tier lists will have a natural advantage.

 

[Soma]

Am I the only one that finds it funny that everybody that puts Sonic on the top tier can't give a legit reason why?... Get over it, Sonic isn't going to live up to your hopes people... Low or bottom of the Mid tier...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Am I the only one that finds it funny that everybody that puts Sonic on the top tier can't give a legit reason why?... Get over it, Sonic isn't going to live up to your hopes people... Low or bottom of the Mid tier...

I'd be careful there.

he COULD live up to our hopes. but the truth is, no-one has found any way to get around all of his shorcomings yet.

so truth is Bottom or Low teir right now... but who knows for the future (still probably never top teir)


but who knows what might change for the NA version... all he needs is some priority and he has some viability right there.

 

[ROOOOY!]

but who knows what might change for the NA version... all he needs is some priority and he has some viability right there.

Gameplay won't change between versions. Srsly.
And I'm disappointed on the news on Sonic. I don't believe all these shouts for top tier. He fails in big areas that intertwine. Low priority + low knockback on attacks + low damage = disaster.
Not sucking with Sonic would involve a lot of comboing, up in the air. I recommend using Up + B to start a combo off there. Be unpredictable with Sonic. Speed + Unpredicatability = WIN