Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[PerpetualDusk]

I think just about the only thing everyone can agree with is that Toon Link = Jesus and that Ganondorf is a big bag of suck.

 

[smash superstar]

Rob For Top Tier!

 

[J0K3R]

Rob For Top Tier!

I disagree. Snake/TL for top tier

 

[Tien2500]

So just some things I'd like cleared up for me. Can someone explain to me why Wolf is considered top tier? His F-smash has nice range and his blaster is pretty decent. But I can't really see what makes him top tier.

Also I'd like to know what makes Donkey Kong so horrible. I've yet to see anything terrible said about him besides big target/easy to combo which isn't really enough to make him bottom tier. Oh and he has bad vertical recovery but I've rarely had trouble getting back to the stage with his horizontal recovery. So is there something I'm missing or does noone like him because he's a relatively boring character?

Oh and while we're at it if any of those defending G-dorf can back up their opinions that'd be good.

 

[jwj442]

People are putting DK at really bad positions just because he's probably the least popular Smash character. He moves fast, he's heavy, his attack speed is pretty good, he's powerful, he has very good range (I think ftilt outranges Marth's fmash!), he does well against shield campers, his cargo ability is still good (though probably less useful than in Melee) and all his specials are all quite useful now. He can't juggle like he could before though.

His problems are that he's a big fat target, he has bad vertical recovery, he has no projectile, and he has some trouble with small characters. BTW, Samus is a really bad matchup for him because there's not much he can do about a good Samus's zair. None of these are crippling weaknesses that warrant a bottom tier placement or even close. Not that I'm saying he's top tier either.

And he's fun to play, even though he's not very flashy.

 

[marthownsxd]

Juss thinking of top tier since the full roster is just so big:
Top Tier:
Marth
Metaknight
Toonlink
Wolf
R.O.B.
Pit

 

[Joeshi]

You know what i have to thank you king of Des your the first person ive seen who has put yoshi somewhere other than low or bottom tier thank you very much. I mean im not sayin hes top tier material but i think he better than bottom and hes to good for low so ill agree he should get middle.

 

[Gerudo Warrior]

You know what i have to thank you king of Des your the first person ive seen who has put yoshi somewhere other than low or bottom tier thank you very much. I mean im not sayin hes top tier material but i think he better than bottom and hes to good for low so ill agree he should get middle.

i feel your pain

EDIT -

AVATAR ATTACK!!!!!!!!!

 

[StoneColdLink]

Where is the actual Tier List? Like whos in Top, Upper, High, Mid, Low and Bottom tiers? Last time I heard Metaknight, Pit and Game and Watch were the best characters, as of now in the game. Yet I heard Diddy and Toon Link were. The Pros got to get together and make up a accurate Tier List for Brawl. As for myself I think Toon Link, Marth and Fox are Top Tier. Come on guys.

 

[Klixx]

On DK: the reason he isen't higher is because he loses a lot of match ups like samus, olimar and even link beats him pretty badly. It is very hard for him to get around projectiles

Yoshi has potential just not as much as other characters his combo ability is lacking in brawl I think he is a good character but loses to many characters since his super armor was nerfed along with his throwing eggs

 

[Sensai]

I've been kinda lurking this thread a bit, reading here and there...and it seems like the only things anyone can agree on are as follows:

Toon Link is amazing and likely to be Top Tier.
Olimar is pretty good and ranges from High to Top Tier.
Falcon and Gannondorf suck and are currently competing for worst character in the game.

I agree. Furthermore, I think that most people, including myself, believe Metaknight and Squirtle to be upwards on the Tier list.

@StoneColdLink: there is no 'actual' tier list yet. Give it time.

@Solid Jake: Pokemon Trainer shoudl be separated simply because all three of his Pokemon are vastly different characters. If you didn't separate, you wouldn't be able to accurately describe his match-ups very well.

 

[Ignatius]

Falcon and Gannondorf suck and are currently competing for worst character in the game.

I think Ganon is actually pretty decent from what I saw at the tourney I went to yesterday, it changed my opinion of him. And I'm surprised that many people think Ganon/Falcon are worse than Sonic.

 

[Dan_X]

I really dont think pokemon trainer should be seperated
and i also think people are underrating him , alot
He has so much variety its absurd, squirtle is super fast, good range, and his dthrow is a great kill move
ivysoar has tons of range, reovery isnt great , but ground game is awesome
and charizard is just a beast, rock smash can do what. 32%? and he can easily live up to 200% in most matchups, and his fsmash.. my god the range and power is absurd

I agree, PT is 3 characters in one, so why count him separately in the tiers? I think it's kind of weird that each pokemon would be counted individually especially because of the fatigue issue. A good PT player will switch up when necessary. I can see why Zelda and Sheik are counted separately, because they can each be played independently from each other. Sure you can transform to either at any point during the match, but your need to do so is entirely based on choice, where as PT NEEDS to switch up his pokemon often as they quickly fatigue (2mins to fatigue, with every smash attack and aerial detracting 1 second from the said 2 mins). I agree, that each of the pokemon are good characters, each having their strengths and weaknesses as any other character. Good post man.

People are putting DK at really bad positions just because he's probably the least popular Smash character. He moves fast, he's heavy, his attack speed is pretty good, he's powerful, he has very good range (I think ftilt outranges Marth's fmash!), he does well against shield campers, his cargo ability is still good (though probably less useful than in Melee) and all his specials are all quite useful now. He can't juggle like he could before though.

His problems are that he's a big fat target, he has bad vertical recovery, he has no projectile, and he has some trouble with small characters. BTW, Samus is a really bad matchup for him because there's not much he can do about a good Samus's zair. None of these are crippling weaknesses that warrant a bottom tier placement or even close. Not that I'm saying he's top tier either.

And he's fun to play, even though he's not very flashy.

I agree, in some ways DK's the best of both worlds. He's heavy and fast... what? Weird right? Great attack/ grab range (always a plus), forward b effectively plants the enemy into the ground and following that with a fsmash or charged b will almost always spell easy KO for DK. It's just a matter of landing the forward b. So, maybe mid tiers?

I think just about the only thing everyone can agree with is that Toon Link = Jesus and that Ganondorf is a big bag of suck.

Okay, I myself love Falco in this game (I didn't like him much in Melee -- yes he was good, but I loved Shiek so...) So I've been playing a multitude of characters trying to decide on a main. As of right now I'm consistent with Falco, then Sonic, Shiek, and Dedede. Yeah, Dedede is actually great, his grab is ridiculous-- especially his chain grab, he's a beast if used properly. Though to the point, I've played with Toon Link all that much. I mean, I practiced some combos with him, and I love the fact that his dAir is a spike (awesome!-- also risky) but, what makes him so good? I have not played him enough to know? From my experiences with him thus far, he's quick, packs a punch, and is a very tiny target. Could you shed some light here? What am I missing?

Thats a Personal Opinion


Top
Wolf
Toon Link
Marth
Olimar


High
Mr.Game and Watch
DeDeDe
ROB
Ike
Pit
Falco
Fox
Diddy Kong
Squirtle


Middle
Mario
Metaknight
Kirby
Samus
Sonic
Ice Climbers
Charizard
Snake
Lucas
Wario
Yoshi
Shiek
Jigglypuff
Peach


Low
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Ivysaur
Ness
Pikachu
Luigi

Bottom
Link
Zelda
Captain Falcon
Ganandorf

I agree with some of this tier list. The bottom is somewhat accurate. I agree with most of them but I have some questions about the top. Wolf for example, top tier? I honestly haven't played him much myself, I understand the gist of his differences between the other spacies, but is he really largely better than fox and Falco in brawl? From my experiences I'd have to saw that he's probably better than Fox, but Falco? I find Falco to be very effective, sure he wouldn't be top teir over Wolf? Anyways, what am I missing about Wolf?

Oh yeah, I haven't played Shiek much in Brawl, though I mained her in melee. Why would she now be considered "middle teir" material? She hasn't changed too much from her melee incarnation from what I've seen. She plays very much the same-- If anything, her fAir has been nerfed, if that's the case... hmm. Though, I'm not sure if it has because I haven't played as her enough yet to tell. Anyways, could you shed some light on Shiek aswell?

Thanks.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

@Solid Jake: Pokemon Trainer shoudl be separated simply because all three of his Pokemon are vastly different characters. If you didn't separate, you wouldn't be able to accurately describe his match-ups very well.

but what you don't understand is, you HAVE to use all three pokemon in a single match. you can't "pick a pokemon" for a particular matchup; you must use all three in any given fight, therefore, the pokemon trainer must be ranked as one character.

people are used to the idea of splitting up transformations because of zelda/sheik from melee, but the mechanics of the pokemon trainer make it a whole new deal, unique from the zelda/sheik situation.

ranking each pokemon is less like ranking zelda and sheik separately, and more like ranking ice climbers (if you have both) and ice climbers (if you lost one). it's stupid, and ultimately fruitless.

EDIT: and yes, pokemon trainer is being consistently, and ridiculously, underrated. i'm not going to go into why AGAIN, but let me just say this: i will be absolutely floored if, within the next few months worth of tournaments, pokemon trainers don't go toe to toe with metaknights and marths. pokemon trainer is a very, very solid character. if you plan on playing competitively, it's in your best interest to stop underestimating him.

 

[talkingbeatles]

So just some things I'd like cleared up for me. Can someone explain to me why Wolf is considered top tier? His F-smash has nice range and his blaster is pretty decent. But I can't really see what makes him top tier.

Also I'd like to know what makes Donkey Kong so horrible. I've yet to see anything terrible said about him besides big target/easy to combo which isn't really enough to make him bottom tier. Oh and he has bad vertical recovery but I've rarely had trouble getting back to the stage with his horizontal recovery. So is there something I'm missing or does noone like him because he's a relatively boring character?

Oh and while we're at it if any of those defending G-dorf can back up their opinions that'd be good.

Ganon is awkward because you have to really know when to play offensive and when to play defensive. And when you play defensive, you play it hard. His moves pack such and punch, and most (uair anyone?) have enough priority that if your opponent gets cocky, you can make a comeback with only a couple of hits.
Both his bair and fair come out surprisingly fast for how slow he is on the ground, and these can punish sloppy air game play if timed right. Also, his forward tilt is a ****in' sparta kick! You can short hop uair to great effect, and his dair is just as brutal as before.
I mind game the **** out of people with his down smash as well. It's pretty great.

 

[redgreenblue]

I don't want to actually make tiers so I'll just say one thing. I think Falco should at least be Upper tier.

Pros:

-jumps high
-high move priority
-ridiculously broken horizontal recovery
-fsmash is really powerful and has decent range with a deceiving hitbox
-dsmash comes out fast and is powerful, with a godly knockback on an opponent near the edge
-his dair is the most powerful spike in the game other than Ike's
-his aerials come out fast, and all have decent knockback, with his bair and dair being the best
-can dthrow chaingrab on most characters up to 40-70% (depending on the character)
-can SHDL
-can cancel his phantasm to many lengths, though you need to actually time the second press, unlike in melee where you just mashed b like a madman
-fire bird actually has *kind of* a use now! because it hits multiple times in its duration, if you use it on an edgeguarder, they can not just get the invincibility on the beginning of the hit and wait the rest out, since it will outprioritize their edgehogging and sweetspot the edge if you aim it at the edge
-reflector comes out fast and has a wide variety of uses and considerable range
-RAR is really, really useful for Falco
-4/5 of his aerials are sex kicks
-neutral a combo racks up a lot of damage against a wall or edge
-usmash and utilt come out relatively fast and are good for starting juggle combos

Cons:

-fire bird is still the worst recovery move in the game
-average speed, a bit on the slow side
-fsmash comes out quite slow
-usmash does not have a lot of knockback and doesn't do a ton of damage
-dsmash has basically no range... the opponent has to be right next to you
-uair is no longer a 100%+ finisher
-utilt is no longer a 100%+ finisher
-dtilt is no longer a 80%+ finisher
-light
-dair is harder to spike with

I just think that his advantages outweigh his disadvantages.

 

[Klixx]

There is no doubt in my mind Falco is high to top tier.
He has a 0% - 50 % chain grab that can lead into a running attack DLX into an USmash or a spike.
The shine makes the enemy's hesitate about using projectiles as much because of the length of the time it stays out.
Falco is incredible at tech chasing.
In my opinion he is the best of the space animals and most likley one of the top 5 characters in the game.

 

[Taymond]

Just a note on the PT issue... I myself was originally on the side that they should be separated on the tier list, but fatigue certainly makes this a different situation than Zelda/Shiek.

In a recent fake "Official SBR Tier List" thread, a SBR member indicated that the general SBR consensus was not to separate PT, because the pokemon degrade after such a short time interval that it's impractical to actually attempt to play as only one for any extended period.

I cannot confirm that this is the real SBR unanimous/majority view, as I'm not a member myself, but I don't see why a member would lie, and I am inclined to assume he/she was not incorrect, so... sounds like PT isn't going to be separated.

 

[StoneColdLink]

I think Toon Link, Marth and G&W are currently Top Tier for me. 3 best in the game so far for me. I say give it another 3-4 months we should have a decent and accurate Tier List. As for Final Smash, hands down, Marths is the best. Guarenteed KO, if it hits. Also Ganondorfs as well, just hit with Foward B, and immediately hit the Final Smash, Guarenteed 100% hit.

 

[LEDrabbit]

I just think that his advantages outweigh his disadvantages.

Anyone will claim that about their main. by that definition, ALL characters should be upper tier

 

[redgreenblue]

Anyone will claim that about their main. by that definition, ALL characters should be upper tier

Haha no, seriously Falco's advantages outweight his disadvantages. The first step to improving your character's metagame is realizing its flaws. Falco has many flaws. Just not as many flaws as he has good aspects.

 

[LEDrabbit]

I think Toon Link, Marth and G&W are currently Top Tier for me. 3 best in the game so far for me. I say give it another 3-4 months we should have a decent and accurate Tier List. As for Final Smash, hands down, Marths is the best. Guarenteed KO, if it hits. Also Ganondorfs as well, just hit with Foward B, and immediately hit the Final Smash, Guarenteed 100% hit.

Well... do you mean that you play best with them? or do you actually believe that those 3 are the best? because tiers define characters based on their capability, not player skill. I like Marth's final smash too, seems hard to miss, but I don't play with smash balls so I wouldn't know.

 

[StoneColdLink]

It always fails for me. I main with Link and Toon Link, with Lucario/Zelda as potential backups. It always seem that my mains (except for Toon Link) never seem to be good enough (Tier List wise) to actually be a contender in tournaments. I play with who I like, and nowhere near choosing a character because they are top tier, like alot of these smasher like to do is pick top tier characters. Which is what made Melee a complete bore because you would always see tournaments with 80% of all people there played Fox, Marth or Sheik. I like how Brawl made the game more balanced, in a sort of way. I hope I can go to a Brawl tournament and see more variety of characters being played.

 

[thesage]

Dude, zelda ***** in brawl, just spam din's fire.

 

[StoneColdLink]

Im talking bout Top Tier best potential in the game, best capabilties I think lies in those 3 characters, Toon Link, Marth and G&W. Fox and Olimar are right under. Im not going to sit here and list my Tier List, cause as for me I play as my fav. and not how they rank in Tier. I know your thinking, why you in this thread, well I like to know where my characters stand in terms of Tier to see if I really can contend against Top Tier. Knowing Link is said to be a bad one, and Zelda and Lucario seem to be set around High/Mid tier. IT just makes me wanna learn quicker and practice more with Link to make him a good threat or a character to be actually quite good and see that hes underrated when he shouldnt be.

 

[Sheen]

NO No NO No NO

Listen every one posting here has a really REALLY biased opinion right now. Everyone can use certain characters well but not all of them. Lets just be patient and stop spamming ignorent lists based on minimal information. If you wanna do something productive on this board say why these characters are good or how you use them against their counter picks. STOP SPAMMING RETARTED LISTS. IM REALLY SICK OF SEEING FALCO, FOX, and LINK BELOW SONIC!

Much Love FROM

<3 Sheen of Team 9001 <3

 

[redgreenblue]

Listen every one posting here has a really REALLY biased opinion right now. Everyone can use certain characters well but not all of them. Lets just be patient and stop spamming ignorent lists based on minimal information. If you wanna do something productive on this board say why these characters are good or how you use them against their counter picks. STOP SPAMMING RETARTED LISTS. IM REALLY SICK OF SEEING FALCO, FOX, and LINK BELOW SONIC!

Much Love FROM

<3 Sheen of Team 9001 <3

I just really like pants, a lot.

 

[Sensai]

but what you don't understand is, you HAVE to use all three pokemon in a single match. you can't "pick a pokemon" for a particular matchup; you must use all three in any given fight, therefore, the pokemon trainer must be ranked as one character.

No, I understand that all three Pokemon must be used in a match. Sadly, that doesn't really change all that much...

If I say "Who would win, PT or Pikachu?" you would say "Well, who is PT using?" I'd respond, and then from that you'd give an answer. How is that any different then dividing them up?

I completely understand the fatigue thing, and I get that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to transfer the pokemon out....but that in no way means we have to consider them all one character.

[Edit:]

Also, I probably won't respond to whatever you give me back. Not because I don't like debating this issue, but simply because by the time I check this thread again, it'll be 20 pages into the future.

Times move quickly here on the 'boards. :-/

 

[Veil2222]

It's only ******** to you because you don't agree with it. I don't agree sonic is above any of them either, aside from link, but I'm not going to be disrespectful and flame someone for their opinion. To them sonic could be so obviously better that it bears no explanation as to why. You've got bias too, since you believe that Falco, Fox, and Link are innately better than Sonic without an explanation of your own. What we need to be productive is raw information from as many sources as possible in order to refine the consensus, as much of a pain it is to sift through it all.

*ahem* "and that's all I have ta say about that"

My whole argument is that there are too many tier distinctions, I don't feel the characters are so broadly balanced that a mid low, or mid upper, should exist right now. To me, there's only upper, middle, and lower, right now. If I don't know where to put someone, they're in middle.

So on to specifics then, the only characters I've been playin extensively are Ike, Sonic, Wolf, and Toon Link. I have competitive friends who play a myriad of mains, and we play often, so I've gotten some great comparison data so far. I'll toss my characters in order from what I've experienced so far with out competitive 1 on 1's.

Upper:
Toon Link: Projectile spamming, rar bair WoP's/combos, amazing DI abuse, great recovery, some disjointed hitboxes

Middle:
Wolf:
great Fsmash, a decent projectile, reflector, bad recovery in a lot of situations, mixed areas of high/low priority/range depending on matchup

Sonic:
Speed, holy crap speed, moderate damage, struggles a bit to kill, great mindgames with b's, d smash, spring, and dair combos, low priority, good combo potential

Ike:
Power in spades, amazing priority, plenty of disjointed hits, a lot of range, really slow, really punishable, decent recovery, bad compared to most though, some combos, some mindgames

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

No, I understand that all three Pokemon must be used in a match. Sadly, that doesn't really change all that much...

If I say "Who would win, PT or Pikachu?" you would say "Well, who is PT using?" I'd respond, and then from that you'd give an answer. How is that any different then dividing them up?

I completely understand the fatigue thing, and I get that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to transfer the pokemon out....but that in no way means we have to consider them all one character.

but see, that's the thing. anyone who knows pt isn't going to say "well, who is pt using?" at most, they would ask who pt is starting the match as. (i, personally, would begin as ivysaur to keep pikachu from getting too comfortable spamming thunderjolt.)

but after a kill and maybe a strong launch to give myself time to switch, i'd have to move on to charizard, and, if the match carries on long enough, i would eventually move to squirtle, back to ivysaur, and i MIGHT even have time to reach charizard again.

pt's pokemon are inseparable. unless it's a very, very aggressive one or two stock match, any time you can answer the question "who is pt going to be using?", you know you're watching a pt that you shouldn't be taking data on for tier lists.

really, you have to ask yourself this: if you MUST use all three "transformations" every time you go into battle, what's the point of ranking them each individually? if you can't separate them in a match, what's the point of separating them in a tier list?

not to mention "low tier only" tournaments... how are you going to enforce that one?

[Edit:]

Also, I probably won't respond to whatever you give me back. Not because I don't like debating this issue, but simply because by the time I check this thread again, it'll be 20 pages into the future.

Times move quickly here on the 'boards. :-/

... do you check the thread every 4 days?

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

My tier list so far, open to critisicm, not insults, also, this is mostly rough draft, so take it seriously or not, whatever

TOP:
Toon Link
Marth
Wolf

Upper:
Olimar
Lucas
Fox
Pit
Snake
Zelda
Pikachu
Luigi

Middle:
Meta-knight
Diddy
Ivysaur
Ike
Ness
Sheik
Mario
Kirby
Zamus
Squirtle
Ice Climbers
Peach
Falco

Low:
Sonic
Bowser
Falcon
Ganondorf
Samus
Lucario
Wario
Jigglypuff
R.O.B

Bottom:
Donkey Kong
Charizard
Yoshi

 

[Veil2222]

Okay, I'll bite, why did you put wolf, charizard, and ROB where you did? For the most part I can agree with your list as plausible, but those are the three that don't add up with my expirences with the characters. Both Charizard and ROB to me should be 2 of your tier classes up, and wolf should be one or two down. Really, I don't see what the hype around wolf is about, I explained my thoughts on him if you want to compare just a few posts back from here, I'll quote it if you ask for my reasoning.

 

[redgreenblue]

My tier list so far, open to critisicm, not insults, also, this is mostly rough draft, so take it seriously or not, whatever

TOP:
Toon Link
Marth
Wolf

Upper:
Olimar
Lucas
Fox
Pit
Snake
Zelda
Pikachu
Luigi

Middle:
Meta-knight
Diddy
Ivysaur
Ike
Ness
Sheik
Mario
Kirby
Zamus
Squirtle
Ice Climbers
Peach
Falco

Low:
Sonic
Bowser
Falcon
Ganondorf
Samus
Lucario
Wario
Jigglypuff
R.O.B

Bottom:
Donkey Kong
Charizard
Yoshi

LOL at some of that character placement. Obviously you never use Charizard, R.O.B., Wario, Falco, and Zamus.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

No, I understand that all three Pokemon must be used in a match. Sadly, that doesn't really change all that much...

If I say "Who would win, PT or Pikachu?" you would say "Well, who is PT using?" I'd respond, and then from that you'd give an answer. How is that any different then dividing them up?

I completely understand the fatigue thing, and I get that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to transfer the pokemon out....but that in no way means we have to consider them all one character.

On a tier list we should list PT as one character. However, when considering matchups for making the tier list we need to think of all 3 separately. Suppose there is a character in the game who counters Charizard, is an even matchup for Squirtle, and who Ivysaur counters. The PT player will probably try to spend as much of the match as possible as Ivysaur, and try to switch from Charizard as quickly as possible. Also, switching mid-stock does take time, and leaves you vulnerable. Something to consider...

not to mention "low tier only" tournaments... how are you going to enforce that one?

If any of the Pokemon are considered as non-low tier material, then PT shouldn't be an option in low tier tournaments. Much like how switching to Sheik in a melee low tier tournament is banned. Too early for that right now, until we get an official list.

 

[WastingPenguins]

but see, that's the thing. anyone who knows pt isn't going to say "well, who is pt using?" at most, they would ask who pt is starting the match as. (i, personally, would begin as ivysaur to keep pikachu from getting too comfortable spamming thunderjolt.)

but after a kill and maybe a strong launch to give myself time to switch, i'd have to move on to charizard, and, if the match carries on long enough, i would eventually move to squirtle, back to ivysaur, and i MIGHT even have time to reach charizard again.

pt's pokemon are inseparable. unless it's a very, very aggressive one or two stock match, any time you can answer the question "who is pt going to be using?", you know you're watching a pt that you shouldn't be taking data on for tier lists.

really, you have to ask yourself this: if you MUST use all three "transformations" every time you go into battle, what's the point of ranking them each individually? if you can't separate them in a match, what's the point of separating them in a tier list?

not to mention "low tier only" tournaments... how are you going to enforce that one?



... do you check the thread every 4 days?

I think your logic is a bit screwy. Think of it this way: tier lists are more about MATCHUPS, not about the outcomes of entire matches. It's entirely possible for Charizard to be horrible against Pikachu and yet Ivysaur and Squirtle to be great. Of course you are going to have to use Charizard at some point in the match, at least for a moment, but that doesn't matter. Tiers are about MATCHUPS-- in the time during which Pikachu faces Charizard, who has the advantage? For instance, Fox is top tier in Melee because he has favorable matchups than anyone else. It's very, very, VERY possible to completely cut one pokemon from your playstyle if you just switch out every time that one comes up. The pokemon should be ranked individually, for sure.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think your logic is a bit screwy. Think of it this way: tier lists are more about MATCHUPS, not about the outcomes of entire matches. It's entirely possible for Charizard to be horrible against Pikachu and yet Ivysaur and Squirtle to be great. Of course you are going to have to use Charizard at some point in the match, at least for a moment, but that doesn't matter. Tiers are about MATCHUPS-- in the time during which Pikachu faces Charizard, who has the advantage? For instance, Fox is top tier in Melee because he has favorable matchups than anyone else. It's very, very, VERY possible to completely cut one pokemon from your playstyle if you just switch out every time that one comes up. The pokemon should be ranked individually, for sure.

Really this is a "defining your terms" issue.

You seem to be suggesting that tiers are about which character has the advantage inherently in a standard match at a given moment. Since this is a snapshot perspective, the pokemon trainer's pokemon must be ranked individually.



On the other hand, VulgarHandGestures seems to be suggesting that tiers are about which character is more likely to win a standard match. Since this encompasses the entire battle with an eye towards the ultimate victor the pokemon trainer must be ranked as an entire character considering all his pokemon since you must use more then one. However, keep in mind that tiers consider optimum playstyle, so in the individual match-ups which ultimately comprise the tierlist, it's doubtful that any will use all 3 pokemon since it's doubtful that any two are equally effective against a single character with the third being most effective, though of course, which pokemon are the most effective in each match-up will have to be debated. Because this perspective" considers who the winner of a match will be assuming even skill, it must account for all pokemon.


Now the question is, which is most appropriate for the tierlist? Since both perspectives advantaged the same characters in the past it didn't matter, but the pokemon trainer is an exception. Something for the backroom to debate I guess.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Am I the only one who's noticed that nobody is looking at low tiers properly? Everyone can seem to find plenty of characters who are "good", but "bad" characters seem more scarce.

On that train of thought, I can really only think of Donkey Kong, ROB, Lucario, Samus(?), and Link as being not very impressive in Brawl. Everyone else seems as beastly or beastlier than their Melee form, with all the newcomers having plenty of potential.

Can anyone else think of truly "bad" characters right now?

Lucario isn't bad, probably mid tier. He feels much more playable than Mewtwo was in Melee. DK and ROB also feel like lower mid to mid tier (not "good" but definitely playable).

Characters that seem "bad" to me right now (in no particular order):

Yoshi
Samus
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Link

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i understand the tier list is about matchups, but my point still stands: someone playing pt must use each of their pokemon in any given match.

each of the pokemon is dependent on the others for success. sure, one (or two, or three) pokemon may have disadvantages against a certain character, but the mechanics of the pokemon trainer REQUIRE that you use all of them. as such, the pokemon are inseparable.

i get that the tier list is about matchups, and not all of the pokemon are perfectly equipped to deal with every situation. the fact of the matter is, though, a (halfway intelligent) pt must use the three pokemon as though they are ONE character. in the end, you must play as the POKEMON TRAINER; you do not have the option of playing as charizard, or even charizard and squirtle. it's just the mechanics of the character.

EDIT: adumbrodeus, it's spelled "perspective"

that aside, i found your post very helpful and insightful, thanks a bunch

 

[adumbrodeus]

EDIT: adumbrodeus, it's spelled "perspective"

that aside, i found your post very helpful and insightful, thanks a bunch

Thanks, fixed.


And you're welcome, I try.

Hopefully it will be useful in resolving this particular issue.

 

[Syde7]

Well, as far as my main (R.O.B.) is concerned, I think he'll be the lowest of top or around the top of the high.

Link is middle mid tier (he's muh nostalgic fun char)
T. Link will prolly be Top tier.
As for exact placements for Pit and MK, I dun know, but I suspect Pit will be higher, though they won't be separated by more than 2-3 chars.